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Jeffrodo
Bree
Jun 17 2015, 2:57am
Post #1 of 33
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AUJ: "Who did you tell?"
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Sorry if this has been discussed. I'm watching AUJ and Gandalfs line to Thorin right after the warg attack has always puzzled me. "Who did you tell?" Thorin denies telling anyone about the quest but Gandalf looks at him in disbelief. Did Thorin tip off someone inadvertently?
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Legolas_Shoehorn
Bree
Jun 17 2015, 5:42am
Post #2 of 33
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...from the Two Film Version story arc.
They shot Thorins & Gandalfs Meeting (Prancing Pony) during Pickups/Reshoots six months after AUJ was released.
PJ didn't even bothered to remove that dialogue from the AUJ EE. He was probably too busy finishing DOS at that time.
My English is not that good, my Elvish is better ;-)
(This post was edited by Legolas_Shoehorn on Jun 17 2015, 5:43am)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 17 2015, 7:02am
Post #3 of 33
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I don't agree with the previous answer....
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This line seems to fit perfectly to me. We know from the prologue of the Bree meeting that Thorin is being hunted. So when the hunters appear to have caught up with the company, it's surely natural for Gandalf to ask the question - like saying 'how did they find us?' I wouldn't take it to mean that Thorin had tipped someone off - after all, they almost caught up with him at Bree, before the quest even started. But Gandalf is naturally cautious and he wants to understand what's happening.
Even if the original intention of the exchange was different, it still seems to me to work.
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 17 2015, 7:46am
Post #4 of 33
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We do not know or whether it was meant to lead somewhere
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The simple answer to your question is we never find out whether it was :-
1) An atmospheric piece of dialogue building the notion that serious jeopardy is at hand or
2) Whether it was meant to lead to a later revelation such as Thrain tortured by Conan Stevens Azog revealed his famiies intentions (and the existence of the map and the key) who sent Fimbul the Scout to hunt for Thorin. I only offer this idea because it is block 2 location dialogue when Thrain and Azog had been filmed in radically different circumstances.
The most important thing is you have picked it up which means something has gone off in your head which feels incomplete rather than is intentional dramatic ambiguity.
You will receive many different answers from TORN members but I would recommend the film makers commentaries in the extended editions and then come to your own conclusions.I would add there are a number of pieces of dialogue in AUJ that have this affect and I would recommend the same approach for all. I hope that helps.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jun 17 2015, 7:48am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 17 2015, 7:46am
Post #5 of 33
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Even Gandalf can't be right all the time.
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On the other hand, "loose lips sink ships." There were twelve other Dwarves besides Thorin, some of them with loved ones they were leaving behind on the quest. Any one of them could have let something slip by accident.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 17 2015, 8:02am
Post #6 of 33
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This is organised drama not cinema verite
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I like you phlegmatic response and it is entirely rational. But this is drama which is meant to communicate effectively and quite deliberately what it is trying in to convey.
I understand the innocent framing of the question effectively "how does this dramatic dialogue work" and like every piece of dialogue it is there for a reason.
It was written, rehearsed, thought about, probably involved several takes and the outcome whatever it was would be to achieve a deliberate outcome. Life is full of accidents the Hobbit films are not cinema verite so you could be correct but in a big budget family entertainment film you do not normally sketch things out roughly and let the recipient have an endless round of options.
One of my professional career functions was public speaking if you want to lose peoples attention leave matters ambiguous and get them to over think an outcome because its not clear. Good communication and drama is about clear communication when we have that we can get involved emotionally. This contributor is puzzled and rightly so.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Arannir
Valinor
Jun 17 2015, 8:07am
Post #7 of 33
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Imho a left-over from the two movie version...
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... I have - of course - no prove of that but I am pretty sure it had something to do with Thrain being tortured, as Michelle explained already.
One of the hints at a much more structured and altogether better version of this tale.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 17 2015, 8:13am
Post #8 of 33
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Don't take that response too seriously...
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My previous post was a bit off-the-cuff. I didn't seriously mean to imply that one of the Dwarves leaked Thorin's plans. Was it Balin who pointed out that others could read the same signs that the Dwarves perceived? Sauron probably anticipated Thorin's attempt to return to Erebor and placed Azog and his hunters in his path.
Gandalf's question brings up the possibility of a leak in the minds of the audience without categorically stating that such a thing occurred. I'm not sure, though, why he should sound so certain that the company had been betrayed (whether by accident or design).
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 17 2015, 8:27am
Post #9 of 33
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Fair comment and my reply was serious an example of "real life" misunderstanding as opposed to drama. 
Incidentally in the AUJ commentary Phillippa says this exchange is deliberately connected to the beginning of film 2. As she wrote the script it can not be considered anything other than deliberate and the way i receive it is frankly inconsistent. Gandalf knew Thorin was being followed, he told him, both for personal reasons and as explained to Thranduil much later for geo political ones.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jun 17 2015, 8:29am)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 17 2015, 9:01am
Post #10 of 33
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Gandalf already knows that Thorin is wanted and that bounty-hunters and others are looking for him. The only question is, how much do they know about his movements and plans? Not that Thorin had any concrete plans until after he met Gandalf in Bree.
By the way, might Sauron have had any spies in the other Dwarf kingdoms? Not all Dwarves were always aligned with the other Free Peoples. Someone who had knowledge of Thorin's meeting with the other Dwarf-clans could have reported to the Enemy.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jun 17 2015, 9:13am
Post #11 of 33
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That's how I always saw it, too.
This line seems to fit perfectly to me. We know from the prologue of the Bree meeting that Thorin is being hunted. So when the hunters appear to have caught up with the company, it's surely natural for Gandalf to ask the question - like saying 'how did they find us?' I wouldn't take it to mean that Thorin had tipped someone off - after all, they almost caught up with him at Bree, before the quest even started. But Gandalf is naturally cautious and he wants to understand what's happening.
Even if the original intention of the exchange was different, it still seems to me to work.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 17 2015, 4:39pm
Post #12 of 33
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Azog has sent scouts everywhere
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So when one of them finds the company, it may look like something else than 'chance'.
I don't find illogical that Gandalf asks Thorin and co if they leaked something about their quest, but thirteen dwarves are not that easy to hide.
IMO what that scene shows is that Gandalf has a plan of his own, and is just afraid that his own involvment could be known widely.
For instance, had the Dragon been alerted, all would have ended somewhere else.
By the way the orcs did track the dwarves, but apparently they happened not to tell Smaug.
(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Jun 17 2015, 4:41pm)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 17 2015, 4:52pm
Post #13 of 33
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... that the whole hobbit book almost went nowhere since Tolkien had first planned that Bilbo would kill the dragon himself, chatting with him, looking at the hole in Smaug's chest then becoming invisible and plunging Dard into it.
When it grew obvious that Dard couldn't make it through such a gigantic beast, the whole story had been already written and the Professor had nothing else to do but calling 'Bard' (and no 'Dard') at the last minute, that is in a rush.. er in a 'thrush'. 
(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Jun 17 2015, 4:58pm)
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ghost_matt
Rivendell
Jun 18 2015, 1:23am
Post #14 of 33
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Remember Thrain was captured by the Necromancer, who was Azog's master. In DoS, Thrain says he didn't talk, however later Smaug (who is also in league with the Necromancer) says he's long suspected that Thorin would make a move on Erebor. You can conclude from that that even though that Thrain didn't talk, they guessed his purpose (that Gandalf had sent him to take back the Lonely Mountain).
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Lindele
Gondor
Jun 18 2015, 3:35am
Post #15 of 33
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That the split happened long before AUJ was released.
Research!
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 18 2015, 4:48am
Post #16 of 33
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I think you have misunderstood his point. The dialogue which is causing the uncertainty for some, but not others, was shot in late 2011 for a two film adaption and suggests Gandalf is bemused that they are being tracked. At this point in the filming Thrain and Azogs early versions of the story had been shot in Block 1 and it is possible that the reasoning behind them being tracked is the result of a confession from Thrain that would have been made clear later in the original film structure. At this point in the filming Manu Bennetts Weathertop sponsored surveillance operations did not exist. As Elrond says to Gandalf in Block 1 dialogue the Warg Pack led by Fimbul had come up from the South (not from Weathetop in the West).
When they began restructuring the material they decided that Azog had been on a man hunt from the very beginning all the way back to the Prancing Pony and that Gandalf through the Black Speech on the Parchment new Thorin was being hunted and told him he had a price on his head.
So L S view is Gandalf's indignation that Thorins company is being followed is inconsistent with him knowing that Thorin is being hunted by a group who use the black speech might there not be a connection. According to Peter Jackson and Phillippa Boyens in their commentaries the two scenes are linked we will discover in the prologue of DOS through Gandalf that Thorin is being hunted and as he says to Thranduil much later the enemies intention was to prevent the company reaching Erebor from the very beginning. Put simply it is the film makers intentions that Gandalf knew from the very beginning in the "new story" that Thorin was being hunted.
Those are the facts but of course some do not see the Prancing Pony dialogue and the Warg attack dialogue as contradictory and some do.
Interestingly in the new modular story of Thrain with the wonderful Sir Antony Sher we find out that Azog, the One and the Dragon are all in league and as Phillppa says elsewhere emissaries have been sent to the Dragon so he to would know of the company's quest or as Pippin would say "Mission"
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jun 18 2015, 4:52am)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 18 2015, 9:00am
Post #17 of 33
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There is the quest, and there is the map
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What Thrain/Anthony Sher knew and didn't tell was about the map he gave to Gandalf before he was caught prisoner.
What Thrain knew was that Azog was looking for Thorin, so if Thorin went to the Mountain he would most probably be attacked.
What Gandalf didn't know before meeting Thrain was that Thrain was still alive in Dol Guldur and so, prisoner of Azog
What Gandalf knew only after meeting Thrain that Thrain didn't tell Azog about the map/the quest
What Thorin didn't know was that Gandalf had the key and the map
What we don't know is whether Thorin knew Thrain had the key and the map before giving it to Gandalf
That may be why Thorin was looking after Thrain in Bree and elsewhere.
What Azog couldn't tell to Sauron and/Smaug was that Thorin had a key and a map
What Azog couldn't know, nor Sauron/Smaug, was if Thorin had some plan to kill Smaug.
In the book, Thorin had no plan to deal with Smaug
In the movie, Thorin indeed had not only one plan to kill Smaug, but two.
The first plan was to get the Arkenstone (so the burglar) and come later with all the dwarves against Smaug,
The second plan was to try and kill Smaug with the golden statue : that one failed.
What Gandalf could fear when meeting the Orcs/Wargs scouts is that Thorin would have spoken about his will to go to Erebor,
instead of simply keeping on searching Thrain as he did before.
(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Jun 18 2015, 9:09am)
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Legolas_Shoehorn
Bree
Jun 18 2015, 9:44am
Post #18 of 33
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The specific AUJ dialogue contradicts the DOS prologue dialogue which was shot in Summer 2013 one year after the split decision was made. PJ was not aware of the contradicting AUJ dialogue when he envisioned the new beginning for the Middle Film (DOS).
My English is not that good, my Elvish is better ;-)
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 18 2015, 11:28am
Post #19 of 33
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What Gandalf could fear when meeting the Orcs/Wargs scouts is that Thorin would have spoken about his will to go to Erebor,
Was that those whom he knew were involved in a dwarf hunt for Thorin and in particular Thorins head might succeed in continuing to track him and they did and they found him and his company west of Rivendell and east of Weathertop.
There is no need to over think this Gandalf knew Thorin was being hunted and should not express surprise when they are found. End Of.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 18 2015, 12:20pm
Post #20 of 33
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Of course this is the good explanation :-)
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Given that, should the team have re-settled where the whole scene had been shot and shoot another one ?
No way. Gandalf's surprise is left unnecessary by the prologue of the next movie, but as unnecessary as it is, it doesn't harm the storytelling very much.
Audiences are somewhat left to expect something about this surprise, but most of them, except storytelling experts, will forget every bit of that little plothole. 
The game then is to try and find a way to give another signification to that little scene, in case that some bit of chance provides one.
More so, what I find interesting is the process they went through, ending to find that they needed Azog early in the story.
Same as Dard/Bard and rush/thrush, I think that those merry defaults build the charm.
(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Jun 18 2015, 12:29pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 18 2015, 3:31pm
Post #21 of 33
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Sorry, but I don't think that follows at all...
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Gandalf knew Thorin was being hunted and should not express surprise when they are found. End Of.
End of nothing, I'm afraid.
Gandalf knew Thorin was being hunted some time before the quest began, yes. In Bree and on the roads round about, on familiar and (for Middle Earth) busy routes. But at this point the company is trekking across a vast uninhabited landscape. Of course he's surprised when their pursuers suddenly turn out to be so close on their trail - surprised and afraid, because the company is miles from help and as he initiated the quest, the responsibility is his. How did the orcs find them? How much do the orcs know about the quest? Those are the things he has to find out - and quickly, if he's to save their skins.
Now, this isn't a case of 'overthinking' because it's how that moment came across to me first time, in the cinema, as the film was unfolding in front of me. And it still does. But I'm not going to stamp my foot and say "End of" at this point, as if I have the right of it and no one else is allowed to disagree, because I can see that some people didn't read the scene that way. And I've no reason to suppose that their reaction is any less valid than mine.....
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 18 2015, 3:52pm
Post #22 of 33
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It would rather put paid to the Western genre.
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The idea that there being "wanted posters" out for someone precludes any shock that the posse has discovered the hideout and is coming over the hill seems a funny one to me.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 18 2015, 3:55pm
Post #23 of 33
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In the book, Thorin had no plan to deal with Smaug
In the movie, Thorin indeed had not only one plan to kill Smaug, but two.
Two? As far as I can tell, Thorin arrived at Erebor with no plan at all on dealing with the dragon. He was hoping that either: 1) Smaug had died or moved on, leaving the Mountain unguarded; or 2) that his 'burglar' could locate and take away the Arkenstone without alerting the dragon.
His improvised plan to light the forges, cobbled together in desperation at the last moment, doesn't count.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 18 2015, 3:57pm)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
Jun 18 2015, 3:58pm
Post #24 of 33
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.. the attack of scout wargs happened quite close to Rivendell secret entrance.
So it could be a surprise for both Gandalf and Elrond to have orcs roaming there.
Oddily, Elrond's guys shot all the orcs but two, Fimbul, who got himself immediately killed by Azog who didn't even ask him who killed them, so maybe Azog could have learned that his scouts were near a secret entrance for Rivendell and he could have done something about that.
Meaning, there is another one orc who saw the elves, who did say nothing to Azog and who survived the whole killing.
... Could be a start for another story, if that orc also survived the Battle of the Five Armies !
(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on Jun 18 2015, 3:58pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 18 2015, 4:00pm
Post #25 of 33
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In the films (2.) is the plan, isn't it?
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Steal the stone, unite the clans and attack the dragon together. (Unless fortune should have smiled and 1. turned out to be the case).
It's one of the relatively rare occasions the scripts make a plot element more logical than in the texts.
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