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**The Breaking of the Fellowship** - 2. ‘You can say that I took it by force. For I AM too strong for you, halfling,’ he cried.

squire
Half-elven


Jun 16 2015, 8:50pm

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**The Breaking of the Fellowship** - 2. ‘You can say that I took it by force. For I AM too strong for you, halfling,’ he cried. Can't Post

Welcome to our second day of discussing this, the last chapter of Book II of The Lord of the Rings.



Boromir and Frodo (Ted Nasmith)

2.1 Boromir Offers Frodo His Advice: Go to Minas Tirith
Summary: As Frodo ponders his fate, suddenly he feels a presence, turns, and sees Boromir with a kindly look on his face. Boromir explains he followed Frodo to protect him, and asks if they can talk and maybe decide what to do. Frodo confesses that he already knows what to do, and is simply paralyzed by fear. Boromir offers his advice, but Frodo already knows what Boromir will say, and rejects it – it is the easier path and does not really help with the final problem of the Ring. Boromir lights up and asks if he could see the Ring again, and Frodo freezes, warily refusing.

Frodo’s sixth sense tells him that ‘unfriendly eyes were upon him’ but on turning he sees that Boromir’s ‘face was smiling and kind.’
A. Is Boromir a villain who can put on a dishonest face?

Boromir expresses concern for Frodo’s safety, pointing out that Frodo is the member of the Fellowship who should least be alone in hostile territory.
B. Clearly it’s hard to read this speech in isolation, given what will happen next, but isn’t Boromir correct up to this point: surely he, or Aragorn, or someone should have followed Frodo to keep an eye on him?

Boromir asks if they can “talk for a while”, claiming they two together “may perhaps find wisdom”, compared to the council of the Company where “all speech becomes a debate without end.”
C. How has Boromir judged Frodo’s character, by taking this line?

Frodo replies that he doesn’t need to talk about it, because he already knows what he should do. He states that he is simply “afraid of doing it, Boromir: afraid.” But up to now in the text, we have been led to believe by the narrator that Frodo was, in fact, reviewing past instruction and debating his “choices”.
D. When did Frodo realize that his fear is what’s stopping him from acting?

When Boromir presses the hobbit to listen to his counsel, Frodo speaks eloquently of how his conscience tells him not to take the safer and easier path to Gondor, as he knows Boromir wishes him to. He concludes that he dares not put his “trust in the strength and truth of Men.”
E. Is Frodo judging Boromir correctly, to say such a thing to him, a prince among Men?

Boromir insists that Gondor has a chance of surviving Sauron’s onslaught. Frodo counters that the Ring’s continued existence ensures the eventual fall of Minas Tirith.
F. Why does Frodo, so skilled in parrying the interrogations of Strider in Bree and later Faramir in Ithilien, let the conversation go this way?

That does it: the Ring is in play. Boromir’s eyes light up, he asks if he can see it again, Frodo’s heart goes cold, and the conversation gets weird, even as Boromir’s face “was still kind and friendly.”
G. What are Frodo’s options at this point?




Boromir asks for the Ring (Terry Ernst)

2.2 Boromir reveals that he thinks the Ring should be used against the Enemy
Summary: Boromir, now that the subject of the Ring is out in the open, asks Frodo why it should not be used to save Minas Tirith and defeat Sauron. Frodo points out its ineluctably evil nature, but Boromir counters that he, a True-hearted Man, would not be corrupted by it. Caught up in a fantasy of using the Ring, he plans his war against Sauron and tries to enlist Frodo’s cooperation, at least by bringing the Ring to Minas Tirith before attempting to infiltrate Mordor. Frodo, quietly appalled, refuses and Boromir grows angry.

Boromir asks the big question, somewhat like why not use the Eagles to get to Mordor: Why not use the Ring to defeat Sauron? Frodo answers: because ‘what is done with it turns to evil’. Boromir scoffs that Frodo is only saying that because he’s been taught to say it by the Wise.
H. Is Boromir right: that Frodo actually has no idea how using the Ring to save the Free World would automatically be an “evil” thing?

Boromir launches on one of the most remarkable speeches in the book, or so I think – the fullest exposition of how the Ring works its evil. He starts by saying that Men like him do not desire “the power of wizard-lords” and “will not be corrupted”, and ends by ranting about how the Ring “would give me power of Command,” enable him to win “glorious victories” and place him on a throne as “a mighty king, benevolent and wise.”
I. How does this speech differ from others on the same subject by Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, and Galadriel? And don’t forget Sam’s temptation!

Readers often ask, or at least the question comes up often enough on TORn, what exactly the power of the One Ring is – how does it actually work.
J. Does Boromir’s speech answer the question, or not?

Before giving himself the Ring, Boromir lets Aragorn try it on (so to speak): “What could not a warrior do in this hour, a great leader? What could not Aragorn do? Or if he refuses, why not Boromir?”
K. What does this tell us about Boromir’s view of Aragorn at this point? (If you have time, be sure to review sador’s excellent dissection of Boromir's character in last week’s discussion).

Later in the book, Gandalf rebukes Denethor for imagining that Boromir would have surrendered the Ring to him once he came home with it:
‘In no case would Boromir have brought it to you. … you deceive yourself. He would have stretched out his hand to this thing, and taking it he would have fallen. He would have kept it for his own, and when he returned you would not have known your son.’ LotR V.4

L. Hmm. Would Denethor, whom Gandalf more than half suspects would use the Ring himself in about two seconds if he could, really not have recognized the Boromir we see here on Amon Hen?

Boromir angrily points out that sending Frodo with the Ring into Mordor to destroy it is ‘Folly!’ At the Council of Elrond Gandalf defended the plan against Erestor’s charge of folly, by saying Sauron would never suspect such a move: “Let folly be our cloak”. But later on, Gandalf will react to Denethor’s stinging charge of folly with, “‘There never was much hope,’ he answered [to Pippin]. ‘Just a fool’s hope, as I have been told.’”
M. Well, is Boromir right, or not?

Boromir suggests that Frodo is hesitating to go to Mordor because his good sense tells him that Gandalf was wrong and Gondor should be his destination. Frodo rather politely and obliquely denies this and repeats that he is “simply afraid”, adding that the conversation has helped him make up his mind. Boromir of course hears what he wants to hear, and Frodo has to correct him again: he is not coming to Minas Tirith.
N. Why is this part of the conversation so indirect?

Boromir plausibly makes the case that Frodo can get to Mordor from Minas Tirith as conveniently as he can from the Emyn Muil, and would gain an advantage by resting from the journey and learning where the Enemy’s strengths were before approaching the mountains.
O. Why doesn’t Boromir, like Gollum does later, tell Frodo about Cirith Ungol, the temptingly secret way to enter Mordor by a less obvious route?

Only when Frodo actually feels Boromir’s “suppressed excitement” from a friendly hand on his shoulder, does he begin to think about the physical side of a conflict with the Man. He steps quickly away.
P. Isn’t this the time for Frodo to make like a stocking, and run?







Frodo Shrinks From Boromir (Chmiel)

2.3 Boromir Tries to Seize the Ring from Frodo, but Frodo Escapes
Summary: As Frodo edges away from a maddened Boromir, the great Man demands the Ring and leaps at Frodo to seize it. Frodo has no choice but to put the Ring on and disappear. Boromir bellows with rage and frustration until he trips and nearly knocks himself out. Suddenly his head is clear and, weeping, he cries out an apology to Frodo, who is by then long gone and out of earshot.

Boromir picks up on Frodo’s nervousness and physical distancing, and acts hurt: “I am a true man, neither thief nor tracker.”
Q. Who is the thief? Who is the tracker?

Next he gives ground and tries the "honest" approach. [roughly translated:] Yes, I admit I want to use the Ring, but I only want to borrow it. I promise to give it back. Let’s just try my method; if it doesn’t work (and I and the entire West are destroyed by Sauron despite my using the Ring), then I'll gladly admit I was wrong and you can have it back and take it to Mordor after all.
Frodo says, [roughly translated:] No dice, that’s insane.
R. When Boromir says, a few minutes from now, ‘A madness took me’, when exactly was that: for instance, was he already ‘mad’ at this point?

Boromir curses Frodo and his own fate at not getting the Ring by inheritance from Isildur. As Frodo continues to back away, Boromir oddly softens his voice. Seductively he tries to convince Frodo that he can’t win this one, and might as well give in now, claiming he was forced to do so by Boromir. Then he lets loose with “For I am too strong for you, halfling!”, leaping over the stone at Frodo with ‘a raging fire in his eyes.’
S. How does this dialogue resemble that of the seducer turned rapist?

There has been plenty of commentary over the years, especially since the New Line film actors said they based their performances on the concept, about how the Ring resembles an addictive substance.
T. Does the Ring have a sexual form of appeal, in any way (as supported by the text, by the way, not just as airy speculation)?

Frodo freaks and puts on the Ring, disappearing to Boromir’s astonishment and rage. He heads for the hills, as it were, or at least for the hill.
U. When was the last time Frodo used the Ring to disappear?

V. Have there been any other times when we might have thought he would do it but he didn’t?

W. Why does Frodo head uphill rather than down, when the latter direction is both more hobbit-like and offers more places to hide and escape?

Boromir thrashes about, yelling like the cyclops against Odysseus, until he trips and knocks himself out. When he comes to, he weeps and begs Frodo’s forgiveness: "'What have I done? Frodo, Frodo!’ he called. ‘Come back! A madness took me, but it has passed. Come back!’"
X. Is Boromir truly trustworthy again at this point or is he dissembling in one last hope at catching Frodo off his guard?

In closing today, a couple of general thoughts about Boromir and his Fall.

Consider:
“So small a thing! Could I not have a sight of it again? [no] As you wish. I care not”
“It is not yours save by unhappy chance. It might have been mine. It should be mine. Give it to me!”
“Come, come, my friend! Why not get rid of it? Why not be free of your doubt and fear?”
“Let me get my hands on you! You have only waited your chance to leave us in the lurch!”
As a bad guy plotting to take over the world, Boromir delivers some pretty ripe melodramatic language.
Y. How does his big scene compare to the way the following Evil Overlords plot, gnash their teeth, and twirl their moustaches in The Lord of the Rings:
  1. Lobelia Sackville-Baggins

  2. Grima Wormtongue

  3. Saruman

  4. Sauron

  5. Denethor

  6. The Mouth of Sauron

  7. Bill Ferny

Z. Does Tolkien have any other, possibly better, choices or models for dialogue with characters like this?

Compare the two “Seduction of Frodo” scenes in the past three chapters. In one, Galadriel doesn’t ask for it and so gets offered the Ring she wants, but is shocked by her success and refuses it; in the other, Boromir asks up front, with valid reasons for why he needs it, and so doesn’t get it, is shocked by his failure, and goes mad.
AA. How do these two scenes set Frodo up for his next two seductions, by Smeagol and by Faramir?

We often debate the agency of the Ring in this story. “The Ring was trying to get back to its master,” as Gandalf says early on, which has led sometimes to the most astonishing speculations by fans.
BB. In this passage of seduction and betrayal, why does the Ring itself not urge Frodo to surrender it to the more powerful Man, who will use it as Sauron would wish and expect it to be used by the Wise?



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

Jun 16 2015, 11:08pm

Post #2 of 16 (3082 views)
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Lobellia Sackville-Baggins [In reply to] Can't Post

Wasn't really a villian was she and I doubt if she would have been tempted by the Ring if only for a lack of imagination. Lotho might have been, but a swift bang around the head with a saucepan would have soon sorted that out!


squire
Half-elven


Jun 17 2015, 1:06am

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Actually it was Otho [In reply to] Can't Post

Lobelia gets in some pretty good villain-ish dialogue, within the context of the Shire. But it is Otho who actually utters the immortal motto of Evil Overlords everywhere:
He read the will carefully and snorted. ... ‘Foiled again!’ he said to his wife. - LotR I.1 (bold by squire)

I have never been able to decide if Tolkien had his tongue firmly stuffed in one cheek here, or whether he honestly thought that was the kind of thing hobbits might say (rather than villainous actors in bad Victorian melodramas, which is where the phrase originated in his youth).





squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 17 2015, 9:18am

Post #4 of 16 (3062 views)
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Background reading: I recommend sador's post on Boromir's thoughts last chapter, leading up to this! [In reply to] Can't Post

http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=859107#859107

Some very interesting ideas about what might recently have been going through Boromir's head, which of course we want to think about in order to understand his actions at this crisis point now.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 17 2015, 9:56am

Post #5 of 16 (3055 views)
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Tolkien villians - especially Sackville-Bagginses [In reply to] Can't Post

Reading this, I had a thought.

I think Tolkien does his villains very well. In some fantasy stories, or stories of other types, there is no real point in asking why characters are good or evil(or Good and Evil, with capitals) - it's like asking way some chess-pieces are white and others black. They are that way so that we can easily identify sides and not worry about that while we get on with the chess game, or the story.

In Tolkien, we tend to see characters who have got into trouble by a combination of luck, destiny and choices. Then they make further good or bad choices from that point on. Very often, the characters that make bad choices are written in such a way that we can see why they do - Saruman is brought down by his pride and insecurity, Boromir by his patriotism and anxieties for his country, Butterbur's forgetfulness (and Gandalf's misjudgement in trusting him not to forget) nearly lead to the early capture of Frodo and the Ring. And so on.

You've just made me realise that the Sackville-Bagginses are a very interesting example. On the one hand, they stem from the more light-hearted The Hobbit days, and there is something agreeably pantomime villain about them. The cause of their scheming and feuding is the delightfully petty against the epic concerns of the rest of the book: a family squabble over respectability and who gets to squire over a tiny patch of overlooked territory in the unfashionable western arm of Middle-earth. So they are played for laughs a bit And yet, look what happens - the Sackville-Bagginses social insecurities, their need to be admired: it opens the way for the conquest of the Shire by Sharkey. So bad choices at any level can escalate to serious trouble, with lesser villains all too likely to be sucked into the orbit of greater, nastier ones, so that it become harder and harder to escape.

I also notice how long an escape route, a possible redemption, continues to be offered. Saruman and Denethor persist in their bad choices to the very end, but other characters - Gollum and Boromir and Lobelia end better than you might think. I think it's a neat twist that at the end of the book Lobelia finally finds the respect and admiration she's craved: in her new persona as famed hero of 'la resistance'. So she gives Bag End back because it's no longer an issue.

Sauron is an exception to all of the above - something I suspect Tolkien can pull off because we never see Sauron or know anything about him except by hearsay and speculation, or in the operation of his minions.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 17 2015, 10:12am

Post #6 of 16 (3057 views)
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I think it's interesting that the idea of PERSONALLY wielding the Ring comes to Boromir late [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
What could not a warrior do in this hour, a great leader? What could not Aragorn do? Or if he refuses, why not Boromir?


So my reading is that the idea of taking the Ring himself, to use himself is a piece of the plan that drops into place late, and precipitates the crisis. before this, I think, Boromir hoped to bring the Ring to Minas Tirith, for his superiors to decide what to do:that's become tangled with his belief now in Aragorn's claim - Aragorn should do his duty as King (by Boromir's lights) of using the Ring to win his wars against his people's enemies. I think the personal ambition side of things flares as we hear Boromir speak.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


oliphaunt
Lorien


Jun 17 2015, 2:20pm

Post #7 of 16 (3034 views)
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So many great questions, so little time today... [In reply to] Can't Post

Welcome to our second day of discussing this, the last chapter of Book II of The Lord of the Rings.
Thanks for the great questions.

A. Is Boromir a villain who can put on a dishonest face?
Frodo has enhanced perception from his posession of the Ring.

B. Clearly it’s hard to read this speech in isolation, given what will happen next, but isn’t Boromir correct up to this point: surely he, or Aragorn, or someone should have followed Frodo to keep an eye on him?
Yes, he's right. But the fox can't guard the hens.

C. How has Boromir judged Frodo’s character, by taking this line?
At the council in Rivendell, Frodo acted when he recognized the inability of the group to make a decision. He's in the same position now. Plus, Frodo already tried to pass on the Ring to Galadriel. He's learned that's not an option. So Boromir's attempt is not going to work.

D. When did Frodo realize that his fear is what’s stopping him from acting?
He's known all along that he's afraid, but now he's finally getting ready to act. I think Boromir's presence is making Frodo understand.

E. Is Frodo judging Boromir correctly, to say such a thing to him, a prince among Men?
He's had an education lately about Men. He knows that Isildur kept the Ring when he was counseled to detroy it. He knows that the Ringwraiths were powerful Men.

F. Why does Frodo, so skilled in parrying the interrogations of Strider in Bree and later Faramir in Ithilien, let the conversation go this way?
Frodo thought Strider did not know about the Ring. He knew Faramir didn't know. But Boromir did.

G. What are Frodo’s options at this point?
Frodo has already seen the change in Bilbo when he wanted to see the Ring. He's got to try to defuse the situation.

H. Is Boromir right: that Frodo actually has no idea how using the Ring to save the Free World would automatically be an “evil” thing?
Frodo saw the effect the Ring had on Bilbo. He saw the potential effect on Galadriel. He's seen a bit of what happened to Gollum. This in addition to what he's been told.

L. Hmm. Would Denethor, whom Gandalf more than half suspects would use the Ring himself in about two seconds if he could, really not have recognized the Boromir we see here on Amon Hen?
I think Gandalf means that Boromir, once he physically had the Ring, would undergo a profound change. The Boromir on Amon Hen is just a hint at what would happen.

M. Well, is Boromir right, or not?
If there was no One, it is folly indeed. Borormir and Denethor do not appear to have faith and therefore can not hope. Faramir has a different level of understanding.

N. Why is this part of the conversation so indirect?
I'd be polite and careful during a confrontation with a guy three times my size.

O. Why doesn’t Boromir, like Gollum does later, tell Frodo about Cirith Ungol, the temptingly secret way to enter Mordor by a less obvious route?
He knows that Cirith Ungol is a BAD place, as does Faramir.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 17 2015, 4:45pm

Post #8 of 16 (3022 views)
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(Oops - I should not be hasty: there was already a link to sador's discussion in the OP...) [In reply to] Can't Post

No sure how I missed that. Sorry about that. But maybe two recommendations are better than one...

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 17 2015, 5:45pm

Post #9 of 16 (3020 views)
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Some thoughts on 2.3 Boromir Tries to Seize the Ring from Frodo, but Frodo Escapes [In reply to] Can't Post

Who is the thief? Who is the tracker?
I'd assumed Bilbo was the thief, and Aragorn the tracker -but I could be wrong!

When Boromir says, a few minutes from now, ‘A madness took me’, when exactly was that: for instance, was he already ‘mad’ at this point? with a side order of the Ring as addiction

I recently read a sad but fascinating article by Ms Sarah Hepola, recalling the period in which she had a drinking problem, which would lead to 'blackouts'. Apparently comon among people who drink enough, these were periods - perhaps of moments, perhaps hours - of which she had no memory later, and in which she remained concious and capable of many kinds of action, but exercised appalling and uncharacteristic judgement:



Quote
The stories that men and women tell about their blackouts are different, too. I’ve heard countless tales of men waking up to find their faces bruised, their knuckles bloodied by some fit of unremembered violence. The stories women tell are scary in another way. As Aaron White [an expert on college drinking and a senior scientific adviser at the US National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism] says, “When men are in a blackout, they do things to the world. When women are in a blackout, things are done to them.”

I heard a saying once about drunks: men wake up in jail cells and women wake up in strangers’ beds. It’s not like that for everybody. But it was like that for me. In my life, alcohol often made the issue of consent very murky. More like an ink spill and nothing close to a clear line. Sex was a complicated bargain. It was chase, and it was hunt. It was hide-and-seek, clash and surrender, and the pendulum could swing inside my brain all night: I will, no, I won’t; I should, no, I can’t.

My drinking years: ‘Everyone has blackouts, don’t they?’ by
Sarah Hepola


http://www.theguardian.com/...-blackouts-dont-they


My thought is that the Ring seems to have a similar 'blackout' effect on Boromir (possibly Smeagol too? Speculation, but I can imagine him finding he'd strangled his friend - he does nothing else like it ....for a while). Boromir certainly seems to 'sober up': he makes no further attempt to seize the Ring, and goes on to defend M&P.

I included the second paragraph of that quote to highlight the 'I will, no, I won’t; I should, no, I can’t.', which also seems to be how it goes for Boromir.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 17 2015, 5:50pm

Post #10 of 16 (3017 views)
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"when he returned you would not have known your son" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
L. Hmm. Would Denethor, whom Gandalf more than half suspects would use the Ring himself in about two seconds if he could, really not have recognized the Boromir we see here on Amon Hen?

I think Gandalf means that Boromir, once he physically had the Ring, would undergo a profound change. The Boromir on Amon Hen is just a hint at what would happen.


I agree - also, I think Denethor imagines that Boromir would have brought him the Ring. But what stirs in Boromir at the end of his rant is that he will use it personally. I think this has to lead him into rebellion - I can't imagine anyone else being Steward or King of Gondor for long, with Ringlord Boromir around.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 18 2015, 3:48pm

Post #11 of 16 (2989 views)
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...and some more thoughts on 2.3 Boromir Tries to Seize the Ring from Frodo, but Frodo Escapes [In reply to] Can't Post

2.3S and 2.3T - Lust!
Now that's an unexpected idea! I don't read a sexual vibe to Boromir's desire for the Ring.

Boromir, I note goes through exactly the sequence that Smeagol does prior to murdering Deagol:

Reason and plead ---> Convince oneself, in not anyone else ---> attack when refused.

I think you are coming at this idea via the concept of lust. And 'lust', has an older meaning of any excessive and sinful desire (e.g. money, food, fame, admiration, or power). Sex, in that view, is only one of the things a person might lust for.

Lust is traditionally one of the seven deadly sins, and several of the other six might be characterized as 'lusts' in the broader sense I've just used. A common point of these 'deadly sins' is currently nicely phrased in wikipedia:


Quote
Each is a form of Idolatry-of-Self wherein the subjective reigns over the objective.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins


Which is very Sauron-like of course - putting your desires above any other cause. Sauron literally wants to make himself god of Middle-earth.

The reason the seven sins are 'deadly sins' (I read) was that are they are sins that lead to other sins: the out-of-control effort to achieve whatever you desire as swiftly and conveniently as possible leads to a whole lot of other bad things.

And of course, getting one's own way seems to be frightfully addictive. It can become a sort of meta-lust, with a need to prove one's power again and again.

W: Running up that hill (with lots of problems)
Not much chance of finding a reference for this, but I feel sure I heard that people tend to flee upwards. They go upstairs away from a fire, or hostage-takers tend to go up when the SWAT team breaks in. This might of course just reflect the most obvious immediate route of retreat (getting DOWN again might be harder, though). Or it might (pure speculation be an atavistic ape-man need to climb a tree when the predator comes...

BB: What is the Ring's motivation in this scene?
Well of course, it is a mystery whether the Ring is capable of having a 'motivation'. But let's try out the extreme position - imagining that the Ring has, effectively, been reading the book along with us. It knows exactly what we readers know. What should we expect it to do to further it's goal to get back to Sauron?

I'm not sure. Frodo, whilst he's proving hard to corrupt, is already taking it to Sauron's doorstep, with the seemingly impractical plan of Simply Walking Into Mordor. Boromir is proving more corruptible by the moment, but is he actually a better bet as carrier? To begin with, he'd take the ring the wrong way. Presumably, after a confused period, Ringlord Boromir's Idolatory-of-self would cause him to challenge Sauron and be crushed - but Frodo might well get the Ring back to Sauron sooner. I can readily see the Ring (if it has agency in this) being very content with the way events are playing out.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

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Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 18 2015, 8:50pm

Post #12 of 16 (2989 views)
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"It is the horrible power of the Ring." [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodo’s sixth sense tells him that ‘unfriendly eyes were upon him’ but on turning he sees that Boromir’s ‘face was smiling and kind.’
A. Is Boromir a villain who can put on a dishonest face?


While the noble Boromir isn’t, the ring-obsessed Boromir is. Peter Jackson makes the dual personality thing glaringly obvious when movie-Boromir makes a “gollum” sound right after he says “Curse you! Curse you and all the halflings!” Of course Tolkien is quite a bit more subtle.


Boromir expresses concern for Frodo’s safety, pointing out that Frodo is the member of the Fellowship who should least be alone in hostile territory.
B. Clearly it’s hard to read this speech in isolation, given what will happen next, but isn’t Boromir correct up to this point: surely he, or Aragorn, or someone should have followed Frodo to keep an eye on him?


I’m still wondering what the heck Sam is doing.


Boromir asks if they can “talk for a while”, claiming they two together “may perhaps find wisdom”, compared to the council of the Company where “all speech becomes a debate without end.”
C. How has Boromir judged Frodo’s character, by taking this line?


Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
-Matthew 4:1


Frodo replies that he doesn’t need to talk about it, because he already knows what he should do. He states that he is simply “afraid of doing it, Boromir: afraid.” But up to now in the text, we have been led to believe by the narrator that Frodo was, in fact, reviewing past instruction and debating his “choices”.
D. When did Frodo realize that his fear is what’s stopping him from acting?


When he listened to his heart rather than his head:

'And it would seem like wisdom but for the warning of my heart.'


When Boromir presses the hobbit to listen to his counsel, Frodo speaks eloquently of how his conscience tells him not to take the safer and easier path to Gondor, as he knows Boromir wishes him to. He concludes that he dares not put his “trust in the strength and truth of Men.”
E. Is Frodo judging Boromir correctly, to say such a thing to him, a prince among Men?


He’s using Boromir’s own words of warning and doubt in the Council of Elrond against him:

'For few, I deem, know of our deeds, and therefore guess little of their peril, if we should fail at last.
`Believe not that in the land of Gondor the blood of Númenor is spent, nor all its pride and dignity forgotten. By our valour the wild folk of the East are still restrained, and the terror of Morgul kept at bay; and thus alone are peace and freedom maintained in the lands behind us, bulwark of the West. But if the passages of the River should be won, what then?
`Yet that hour, maybe, is not now far away.’

-The Council of Elrond


Boromir insists that Gondor has a chance of surviving Sauron’s onslaught. Frodo counters that the Ring’s continued existence ensures the eventual fall of Minas Tirith.
F. Why does Frodo, so skilled in parrying the interrogations of Strider in Bree and later Faramir in Ithilien, let the conversation go this way?


Forod is hoping Boromir will realize he’s already well acquainted with what happens to a man who falls to the power of the Ring:

’But this very year, in the days of June, sudden war came upon us out of Mordor, and we were swept away. We were outnumbered, for Mordor has allied itself with the Easterlings and the cruel Haradrim; but it was not by numbers that we were defeated. A power was there that we have not felt before.
`Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest, so that horse and man gave way and fled. Only a remnant of our eastern force came back, destroying the last bridge that still stood amid the ruins of Osgiliath.’

-ibid


That does it: the Ring is in play. Boromir’s eyes light up, he asks if he can see it again, Frodo’s heart goes cold, and the conversation gets weird, even as Boromir’s face “was still kind and friendly.”
G. What are Frodo’s options at this point?


Kick him inna labonza and run.


Boromir asks the big question, somewhat like why not use the Eagles to get to Mordor: Why not use the Ring to defeat Sauron? Frodo answers: because ‘what is done with it turns to evil’. Boromir scoffs that Frodo is only saying that because he’s been taught to say it by the Wise.
H. Is Boromir right: that Frodo actually has no idea how using the Ring to save the Free World would automatically be an “evil” thing?


If anything Boromir’s scoffing only strengthens Frodo’s argument. Frodo has used the ring, experienced its treachery, seen its lasting effect on Bilbo, seen Galadriel go nuclear, and now Boromir is going all creepy over it. Between the two of them Frodo is most qualified to judge the evilness of the ring.


Boromir launches on one of the most remarkable speeches in the book, or so I think – the fullest exposition of how the Ring works its evil. He starts by saying that Men like him do not desire “the power of wizard-lords” and “will not be corrupted”, and ends by ranting about how the Ring “would give me power of Command,” enable him to win “glorious victories” and place him on a throne as “a mighty king, benevolent and wise.”
I. How does this speech differ from others on the same subject by Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, and Galadriel? And don’t forget Sam’s temptation!


Emphasis (bold) mine throughout:

'Well, if you want my ring yourself, say so!' cried Bilbo. 'But you won't get it. I won't give my precious away, I tell you.' His hand strayed to the hilt of his small sword.
Gandalf's eyes flashed. It will be my turn to get angry soon,' he said. If you say that again, I shall. Then you will see Gandalf the Grey uncloaked.' He took a step towards the hobbit, and he seemed to grow tall and menacing; his shadow filled the little room.

-A Long-expected Party

’That you are a stout fellow,’ answered Strider; ’but I am afraid my only answer to you, Sam Gamgee, is this. If I had killed the real Strider, I could kill you. And I should have killed you already without so much talk. If I was after the Ring, I could have it - NOW!’
He stood up, and seemed suddenly to grow taller. In his eyes gleamed a light, keen and commanding.

-Strider

She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illuminated her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful.
-The Mirror of Galadriel

As Sam stood there, even though the Ring was not on him but hanging by its chain about his neck, he felt himself enlarged, as if he were robed in a huge distorted shadow of himself, a vast and ominous threat halted upon the walls of Mordor.
-The Tower of Cirith Ungol

But it takes good old hobbit-sense to realize:

…deep down in him lived still unconquered his plain hobbit-sense: he knew in the core of his heart that he was not large enough to bear such a burden..
-ibid

BTW, Elrond might have been immune to the ring because he was already really tall, what with being the grandson of Tuor (tallest of the Edain) and the great grandson of Turgon (taller than Tuor) and Thingol (tallest of the Children of Eru).


Readers often ask, or at least the question comes up often enough on TORn, what exactly the power of the One Ring is – how does it actually work.
J. Does Boromir’s speech answer the question, or not?


Another famous Sam put it succinctly:The stuff that dreams are made of. (-The Maltese Falcon (1941))

But I think what describes the power of the Ring best is what pitcher Henry Wiggen said about his friend catcher Bruce Pearson in Bang the Drum Slowly (1973): “He was a million dollars' worth of promise worth two cents on delivery.”

Sam suspected the truth of it, wondering "if such visions were not a mere cheat to betray him." (-The Tower of Cirith Ungol)


Before giving himself the Ring, Boromir lets Aragorn try it on (so to speak): “What could not a warrior do in this hour, a great leader? What could not Aragorn do? Or if he refuses, why not Boromir?”
K. What does this tell us about Boromir’s view of Aragorn at this point? (If you have time, be sure to review sador’s excellent dissection of Boromir's character in last week’s discussion).


"Yet always he treated Aragorn with honour."
"I doubt it not," said Faramir. "If he were satisfied of Aragorn's claim as you say, he would greatly reverence him. But the pinch had not yet come. They had not yet reached Minas Tirith or become rivals in her wars.”

-The Window on the West


Later in the book, Gandalf rebukes Denethor for imagining that Boromir would have surrendered the Ring to him once he came home with it:
‘In no case would Boromir have brought it to you. … you deceive yourself. He would have stretched out his hand to this thing, and taking it he would have fallen. He would have kept it for his own, and when he returned you would not have known your son.’ – LotR V.4

L. Hmm. Would Denethor, whom Gandalf more than half suspects would use the Ring himself in about two seconds if he could, really not have recognized the Boromir we see here on Amon Hen?


He would not have recognized King Boromir:

"And this I remember of Boromir as a boy, when we together learned the tale of our sires and the history of our city, that always it displeased him that his father was not king. ‘How many hundreds of years needs it to make a steward a king, if the king returns not?’ he asked. ‘Few years, maybe, in other places of less royalty,’ my father answered. ‘In Gondor ten thousand years would not suffice.’ Alas! poor Boromir. Does that not tell you something of him?“
"It does," said Frodo.

-ibid


Boromir angrily points out that sending Frodo with the Ring into Mordor to destroy it is ‘Folly!’ At the Council of Elrond Gandalf defended the plan against Erestor’s charge of folly, by saying Sauron would never suspect such a move: “Let folly be our cloak”. But later on, Gandalf will react to Denethor’s stinging charge of folly with, “‘There never was much hope,’ he answered [to Pippin]. ‘Just a fool’s hope, as I have been told.’”
M. Well, is Boromir right, or not?


If one listens to one’s wits and senses, yes, but the power of the foolish heart is stronger:

But my five wits nor my five senses can
Dissuade one foolish heart from serving thee

-Sonnet #141


Boromir suggests that Frodo is hesitating to go to Mordor because his good sense tells him that Gandalf was wrong and Gondor should be his destination. Frodo rather politely and obliquely denies this and repeats that he is “simply afraid”, adding that the conversation has helped him make up his mind. Boromir of course hears what he wants to hear, and Frodo has to correct him again: he is not coming to Minas Tirith.
N. Why is this part of the conversation so indirect?


Indirect verbal rejection is a common tactic used when someone weaker is being pressured by someone stronger and they fear direct verbal rejection could likely lead to physical aggression. Doesn’t always work as some people are rather dim.


Boromir plausibly makes the case that Frodo can get to Mordor from Minas Tirith as conveniently as he can from the Emyn Muil, and would gain an advantage by resting from the journey and learning where the Enemy’s strengths were before approaching the mountains.
O. Why doesn’t Boromir, like Gollum does later, tell Frodo about Cirith Ungol, the temptingly secret way to enter Mordor by a less obvious route?


Because Frodo might actually go that way, which would be the follyest of folly.


Only when Frodo actually feels Boromir’s “suppressed excitement” from a friendly hand on his shoulder, does he begin to think about the physical side of a conflict with the Man. He steps quickly away.
P. Isn’t this the time for Frodo to make like a stocking, and run?


Then Boromir would make like JP Morgan and Chase.


Boromir picks up on Frodo’s nervousness and physical distancing, and acts hurt: “I am a true man, neither thief nor tracker.”
Q. Who is the thief? Who is the tracker?


I could go into long involved questionable etymologies where thief = rager and tracker = weasel, but I won’t.


Next he gives ground and tries the "honest" approach. [roughly translated:] Yes, I admit I want to use the Ring, but I only want to borrow it. I promise to give it back. Let’s just try my method; if it doesn’t work (and I and the entire West are destroyed by Sauron despite my using the Ring), then I'll gladly admit I was wrong and you can have it back and take it to Mordor after all.
Frodo says, [roughly translated:] No dice, that’s insane.


“Lend me your eggs so I can try making an omelet. If I mess up I’ll give them back.”


R. When Boromir says, a few minutes from now, ‘A madness took me’, when exactly was that: for instance, was he already ‘mad’ at this point?

One might say when he acted, but the thought is father to the deed:

"If you say to yourself, 'I'm gonna go downtown and commit a mortal sin,' save your cab fare: you already did it!"
-George Carlin

Boromir curses Frodo and his own fate at not getting the Ring by inheritance from Isildur. As Frodo continues to back away, Boromir oddly softens his voice. Seductively he tries to convince Frodo that he can’t win this one, and might as well give in now, claiming he was forced to do so by Boromir. Then he lets loose with “For I am too strong for you, halfling!”, leaping over the stone at Frodo with ‘a raging fire in his eyes.’
S. How does this dialogue resemble that of the seducer turned rapist?


Too much.


There has been plenty of commentary over the years, especially since the New Line film actors said they based their performances on the concept, about how the Ring resembles an addictive substance.
T. Does the Ring have a sexual form of appeal, in any way (as supported by the text, by the way, not just as airy speculation)?


It does appear to airbrush one’s appearance, making one seem taller and more impressive, like the beautiful people in ads and magazines. But really, those men and women don’t actually exist. They're as illusory as the promises of the ring.


Frodo freaks and puts on the Ring, disappearing to Boromir’s astonishment and rage. He heads for the hills, as it were, or at least for the hill.
U. When was the last time Frodo used the Ring to disappear?


At Weathertop. Before that accidentally at Bree and intentionally at Bombadil’s. He’ll use it twice more after this.


V. Have there been any other times when we might have thought he would do it but he didn’t?

During the battle at the Chamber of Mazarbul, though one wonders what the balrog would have done.


W. Why does Frodo head uphill rather than down, when the latter direction is both more hobbit-like and offers more places to hide and escape?

Who knew Frodo was a student of Sun Tzu? Plus there’s also the symbolism of Frodo taking the high ground morally.


Boromir thrashes about, yelling like the cyclops against Odysseus, until he trips and knocks himself out. When he comes to, he weeps and begs Frodo’s forgiveness: "'What have I done? Frodo, Frodo!’ he called. ‘Come back! A madness took me, but it has passed. Come back!’"
X. Is Boromir truly trustworthy again at this point or is he dissembling in one last hope at catching Frodo off his guard?


About as trustworthy as Frodo at Cirith Ungol:

'O Sam!' cried Frodo. `What have I said? What have I done? Forgive me! After all you have done. It is the horrible power of the Ring.’
-The Tower of Cirith Ungol


In closing today, a couple of general thoughts about Boromir and his Fall.

Consider:
“So small a thing! Could I not have a sight of it again? [no] As you wish. I care not”
“It is not yours save by unhappy chance. It might have been mine. It should be mine. Give it to me!”
“Come, come, my friend! Why not get rid of it? Why not be free of your doubt and fear?”
“Let me get my hands on you! You have only waited your chance to leave us in the lurch!”
As a bad guy plotting to take over the world, Boromir delivers some pretty ripe melodramatic language.
Y. How does his big scene compare to the way the following Evil Overlords plot, gnash their teeth, and twirl their moustaches in The Lord of the Rings:
1. Lobelia Sackville-Baggins
2. Grima Wormtongue
3. Saruman
4. Sauron
5. Denethor
6. The Mouth of Sauron
7. Bill Ferny


Again, one wonders where are the servants of the Enemy that look fair and feel foul? Boromir looks fair and feels foul at Amon Hen, but he’s not a servant of the Enemy. Lobelia seems a stereotypical unpleasant in-law. One wonders how Grima could have risen to his position in the first place. The much vaunted Voice of Saruman is more annoying whine than persuasive balm. Sauron has no concept of homeland security. Denethor is little more than a spiteful log. The mighty MOS is cowed by a dirty look. Bill Ferny is merely a bucolic bully. Gollum, Boromir, and Shelob are the most menacing, exciting and intriguing adversaries in the book and they’re not even on Sauron’s team!


Z. Does Tolkien have any other, possibly better, choices or models for dialogue with characters like this?

Gollum.


Compare the two “Seduction of Frodo” scenes in the past three chapters. In one, Galadriel doesn’t ask for it and so gets offered the Ring she wants, but is shocked by her success and refuses it; in the other, Boromir asks up front, with valid reasons for why he needs it, and so doesn’t get it, is shocked by his failure, and goes mad.
AA. How do these two scenes set Frodo up for his next two seductions, by Smeagol and by Faramir?


I think Frodo realized on some level that Galadriel was wise enough to not take the ring, while he recognized a bit of himself in Boromir’s Ringlust. Similarly, he recognized the wisdom in Faramir and the mirror of his own growing corruption in Gollum.


We often debate the agency of the Ring in this story. “The Ring was trying to get back to its master,” as Gandalf says early on, which has led sometimes to the most astonishing speculations by fans.
BB. In this passage of seduction and betrayal, why does the Ring itself not urge Frodo to surrender it to the more powerful Man, who will use it as Sauron would wish and expect it to be used by the Wise?


I think the ring takes too much sadistic delight in creating drama between rivals. “Oft evil will shall evil mar” and all that.

******************************************

I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.

(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 18 2015, 8:53pm)


squire
Half-elven


Jun 22 2015, 1:42am

Post #13 of 16 (2934 views)
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That's a great point [In reply to] Can't Post

I hadn't seen that but I agree you've found a subtle progression in Boromir's fall that most people miss: that, for all his muttering and guilty glances between Lothlorien and Amon Hen, he has been (consciously at least) contemplating the Ring as a weapon for Gondor to use - possibly by his father, possibly by other "superiors". Only as his mania and lust come to a head when confronting Frodo does he finally break the barrier and realize that he is probably, no, certainly -- wait -- absolutely! the best one to use the Ring to save the West.

Of course this is harder for us to see, because in fact when we get to Gondor there's no one in the City with remotely the kind of military prowess and charisma that the House of Mardil has. Given Boromir and Faramir's youth, I've always thought it a weakness of Tolkien's craft that there are no more "superior" generals under Denethor's command, or at least none that we meet. It streamlines the plot, of course, especially since Aragorn has his hands full as it is when it comes time to claim the throne and the addition of more court and Army politics would just get in the way of a good fairy tale.



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squire
Half-elven


Jun 22 2015, 1:55am

Post #14 of 16 (2934 views)
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The noble Duke of York and all that [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you've brought out a number of good examples of how, and even why, people tend to flee or seek safety in high ground. My question came from my thinking about how hobbits are different from people, or at least are supposed to be different from people. Tolkien played with this a lot more in the early part of the book, when he was expanding Bilbo into an entire race, but the thing I remembered was the whole hole thing: that hobbits are creatures of the earth. They are short, low to the ground, good at hiding in the underbrush, at home in caverns and tunnels, and (quite explicitly in the book at several points) instinctively uncomfortable in trees, or even the second floors of houses. I thought it was a dropped stitch in Tolkien's closely knit story here that Frodo should flee to the top of a hill rather than down the hill to some kind of hollow filled with foliage. Why even a person being chased might well realize that at the isolated top of a hill one is far more likely to found and trapped than in the wider and more spread out land down hill.

Of course, the need for the scene at Amon Hen trumps a minor point of racial characterization completely! But Paul Kocher the critic noted in his book that the hobbits Frodo and Sam become, essentially, human beings or Men in the last two books of their adventures, because they are the only characters in the story and the readers need to be able to identify with their moral and physical torments completely. That's sort of what's going on here too, I suspect.



squire online:
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noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 23 2015, 3:50pm

Post #15 of 16 (2901 views)
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Run for that Briar Patch, Brer Frodo! [In reply to] Can't Post

I see what you mean! I think hobbits are about the size of a six-year-old: unlikely to outrun a grown man. Finding a hiding place (undergrowth, somewhere the larger person can't go & can't reach) might be more sensible than running.

Or of course, Frodo might flee back to the others, who would presumably protect him (interesting scenario...).

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


sador
Half-elven


Jun 29 2015, 10:37am

Post #16 of 16 (2828 views)
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I'm still around [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I'm not sure anybody else is...

A. Is Boromir a villain who can put on a dishonest face?
Is he putting on one?
I guess this is the usual question at what stage did he cross the border. Judging from facial features, it was later in this conversation.

B. Clearly it’s hard to read this speech in isolation, given what will happen next, but isn’t Boromir correct up to this point: surely he, or Aragorn, or someone should have followed Frodo to keep an eye on him?

He is; and I think that at this stage concern for Frodo's safety is his major (or only) motivation. Although he does, of course, want to talk to him, preferably alone.

Even if he does mask sinister intentions, surely Frodo's safety would be his primary concern at this point! Especially if there are orcs around.

C. How has Boromir judged Frodo’s character, by taking this line?
I don't get the impression Boromir is a good judge of hobbits; Frodo seems to perfectly accept the wisdom of Gandalf and Elrond without question, and Boromir seems blissfully unaware of that.

Althoughy once again - I return to Boromir's dark and mysterious hints about what Galadriel offered him. Did she offer, or did he think she had offered, her help in persuading Frodo to surrender the Ring?

I guess Boromir doesn't know Frodo actually wanted to give her the Ring; and neither does he (probably) know that she is the bearer of Nenya.
To which I can say, with Banquo:

Quote
That trusted home
Might yet enkindle you unto the crown,
Besides the thane of Cawdor. But 'tis strange:
And oftentimes, to win us to our harm,
The instruments of darkness tell us truths,
Win us with honest trifles, to betray's
In deepest consequence.



D. When did Frodo realize that his fear is what’s stopping him from acting?
Probably just now.

E. Is Frodo judging Boromir correctly, to say such a thing to him, a prince among Men?
He apparently is trusting enough to tell him the truth.
But the truth is that he puts more trust in the wisdom of wizards and half-elves. Ouch!

F. Why does Frodo, so skilled in parrying the interrogations of Strider in Bree and later Faramir in Ithilien, let the conversation go this way?
Was he so skilled indeed? Faramir did learn quite a bit from him, and figured out that Sam is the weaker link.
And how did he show his skill with Aragorn?

G. What are Frodo’s options at this point?
He hardly has any. If he suspects the sight of the Ring would be harmful (and judging from his encounter with Bilbo at Rivendell, he seems right), that's no go; and he can't just put on the Ring and escape - that would be clear betrayal, or an accusation that Boromir was about to betray him.


H. Is Boromir right: that Frodo actually has no idea how using the Ring to save the Free World would automatically be an “evil” thing?
Yes.
But neither does he have such an idea himself.
In fact, nobody does - the most they can see is that a frustrated need (or desire) for power which is denied is not beneficial for the frustrated party.

As Shippey points out, this is the one assertion on which the whole plot hinges, it is given no proof or rationale whatsoever - and yet hardly any reader questions it.
(This is the thrust of his main argument for Tolkien's place as a contemporary author, in Author of the Century).

I. How does this speech differ from others on the same subject by Gandalf, Elrond, Aragorn, and Galadriel? And don’t forget Sam’s temptation!
It developes, and as it progresses it reaches the point of graniose megalomania. The others (except for Galadriel) are more static.

J. Does Boromir’s speech answer the question, or not?
Yes, and no.
It does show how it preys on the imagination, and the slippery slope leading from wishing it; but there is no indication of how it would work.

Boromir thinks the Ring in itself will give him the power of command - but the story offers another possible interpretation, that it works only through its control of other magic artifacts, or by its supposed power to grant wishes.

Well, if the alternative reading I've suggested is true - then the answer to your question is yes, the speech does show the power of the Ring pretty effectively.

K. What does this tell us about Boromir’s view of Aragorn at this point? (If you have time, be sure to review sador’s excellent dissection of Boromir's character in last week’s discussion).
Thanks for the mention! I've more or less explained my view there.

L. Hmm. Would Denethor, whom Gandalf more than half suspects would use the Ring himself in about two seconds if he could, really not have recognized the Boromir we see here on Amon Hen?
I tend to think Gandalf is not the best judge of Men - he misjudges at least Denethor, and possibly Faramir, too (I'm not talking about the movies; but what they've shown in an exaggerated way is fairly grounded in the text).
On the other hand, Denethor is a shrewd judge - far better, I think.

So I think that had Boromir returned home with the Ring, he most definitely would have given it to his father, despite all that Gandalf asserts.
At least, had he gotten/received/found the Ring at any point before he finally snapped on Amon Hen.

M. Well, is Boromir right, or not?
Yes, he is.

However,

Quote

Now consider this: the scriptures attribute to the foolish a candid and generous mind, while the wise man thinks himself superior to everyone else.

- Erasmus, In Praise of Folly, 77.

N. Why is this part of the conversation so indirect?
Frodo has become afraid of Boromir; while Boromir has become so self-deluded that he thinks he had convinced Frodo.


Quote
Boromir plausibly makes the case that Frodo can get to Mordor from Minas Tirith as conveniently as he can from the Emyn Muil, and would gain an advantage by resting from the journey and learning where the Enemy’s strengths were before approaching the mountains.


You didn't ask about this: but had Boromir refrained from the previous impassioned speech, would this plausible argument help persuade Frodo? It surely had a better chance of it.

Or to put it more provocatively, did the Valar, or Eru, steer Boromir towards his Fall, ruthlessly sacrificing him for the greater Good?

O. Why doesn’t Boromir, like Gollum does later, tell Frodo about Cirith Ungol, the temptingly secret way to enter Mordor by a less obvious route?
How much does he know of it?
But Boromir does not need to make a plan how to reach Mordor from Minas Tirith; he needs to reach it with the Sword that was Broken, and Isildur's Bane. They can draw plans later.

P. Isn’t this the time for Frodo to make like a stocking, and run?
'Make like a stocking'? Is this a misprint, or a phrase I don't know?
Google only came up with this.

Anyway - is Frodo runs now, he will surely be caught. But it is time to think of hiding, yes.


Q. Who is the thief? Who is the tracker?
I know the usual trope, that he is insulting Bilbo and Aragorn here. Personally, I do have my doubts.

Boromir did hear Bilbo's story, but realising how important the 'thief' taunt was for the old hobbit required both attentiveness and acumen after sitting in the Council of Elroind for a long, weary time already - far more than people normally credit Boromir for!
And he has no way to know that Bilbo called himself "a honest thief" to Bard and the Elvenking (and Gandalf), or that this was Thorin's farewell address to him.

As for 'tracker' - if this has any meaning, it must mean that Boromir has gone so far as to repudiate Aragorn becasue of his hypothetical rejection of the offered Ring. I doubt so, especially as in Boromir's mind the 'tracker' might well apply to Faramir.

But it is likely that Frodo hears this as jibes at his two mentors, and is even more alarmed.

R. When Boromir says, a few minutes from now, ‘A madness took me’, when exactly was that: for instance, was he already ‘mad’ at this point?
When he turned to violence.

At least, this is how he would likely see it. I would personally think that lowering his guard and bragging about his faniciful dreams was already madness.

S. How does this dialogue resemble that of the seducer turned rapist?
I have (thanfully) no personal experience, and my cinematic knowledge (whether that is of any worth to anybody) is very limited.
But it does seem plausible.

In which case, your earlier questions whether Frodo should have walked alone when he was so vulnerable, and if his responses didn't unnecessarily gaud Boromir, come close to blaming the victim.

T. Does the Ring have a sexual form of appeal, in any way (as supported by the text, by the way, not just as airy speculation)?
Well, this is Shippey's theory; Jackson and co. didn't come up with it from nowhere.

I see what you are thinking of; even if we do away with Freudean images of Rings and wearing them, there is a sense of it as a more crude, over-the-board, substitute for the delicate power-play of sex; and also as an alternative way to procreation for reaching immortality.
So you can build up a thesis on it, if you want to. I'm not sure I do.

U. When was the last time Frodo used the Ring to disappear?
Weathertop, as far as we know.

V. Have there been any other times when we might have thought he would do it but he didn’t?
Had he indeed escaped earlier, at the Brown Lands.

W. Why does Frodo head uphill rather than down, when the latter direction is both more hobbit-like and offers more places to hide and escape?
That's actually a good question.
I don't quite know; perhaps he wants to avoid the others?
I won't put it to the Ring - if anything, to the other, benevolent Power who is at work.

X. Is Boromir truly trustworthy again at this point or is he dissembling in one last hope at catching Frodo off his guard?
I think that as far as he knows, he is trustworthy again.

But that's not saying I would actually recommend Frodo going back.

Y. How does his big scene compare to the way the following Evil Overlords plot, gnash their teeth, and twirl their moustaches in The Lord of the Rings:
That's a nice question, and I like the image you've added tyo it below.
I bet the Balrog would twirl his moustache, had he not burned it.

Z. Does Tolkien have any other, possibly better, choices or models for dialogue with characters like this?
Are you taunting me? Or did you really think I'll forget?

http://newboards.theonering.net/...latest_reply;#163982

AA. How do these two scenes set Frodo up for his next two seductions, by Smeagol and by Faramir?
Not really. Smeagol tripped; Farmir tripped up Frodo (or Sam, to be exact).

BB. In this passage of seduction and betrayal, why does the Ring itself not urge Frodo to surrender it to the more powerful Man, who will use it as Sauron would wish and expect it to be used by the Wise?
I'm not sure that is what Sauron would wish; later Gandalf thinks he would actually fear it.
The Ring would do far better by getting Frodo to escape alone to Mordor.


 
 

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