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**The Breaking of the Fellowship** - 1. Frodo spoke slowly. ‘Give me an hour longer, and I will speak. Let me be alone!’

squire
Half-elven


Jun 15 2015, 6:07pm

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**The Breaking of the Fellowship** - 1. Frodo spoke slowly. ‘Give me an hour longer, and I will speak. Let me be alone!’ Can't Post

Welcome to squire’s Holiday Camp!

Welcome to the last Reading Room discussion of Book II of The Lord of the Rings! This is also the last discussion for the summer, as I understand the schedule; the Book III discussion will pick up in the fall. Nevertheless, I hope you will feel free to post questions, topics, or silly Summer Holiday quizzes over the next couple of months. “The Reading Room may die, but cannot yield!” (or, in the alternate version, “Merde!”)

Well anyway, as with several of my earlier discussions, I have laid out five posts, one per day this week. In each I will summarize sections of the story, and then pose a few questions. Please don’t feel compelled to answer them all unless you feel like it! Rather take the one or two that interest you. Also, never feel you can’t bring up a point of your own that I’ve missed. I’m only opening the discussion, not finishing it.

To recap the previous chapter, the Fellowship of the Ring has been descending the Great River ever since their stay in Lothlorien. All are aware that they must soon make a decision about how to approach Mordor, which is ever closer to the south and east. Who will accompany Frodo on this apparently hopeless errand? This has been discussed, but never to a conclusion; only Boromir has made plain his errand is to continue south and west to the domain of Gondor.

Let’s get to work.



‘To [Frodo’s] dismay the edges gleamed dimly in the night’. (courtesy Lego Corp.)

1.1 They Camp at Parth Galen
Summary: In the evening light Aragorn guides them to Parth Galen, a green lawn at the foot of the western hill of Amon Hen, the Hill of Seeing. They camp and set a watch; there is no sign of enemies, or of Gollum. In the middle of the night Aragorn cannot sleep and joins Frodo who is on watch. He asks Frodo to unsheath Sting, and it glows faintly. Aragorn says that means orcs are near, but probably not yet on the west bank of the River.

It seems that Tolkien originally considered having the Company camp on Tol Brandir, the island in the middle of the stream. That would have symbolized their need to make the choice of going East or West.
A. Should he have stuck with that idea, or is there a real story reason for Aragorn to have taken them to the west shore, which is implicitly biased towards continuing to Minas Tirith?

‘Lawn’ as a descriptive term always means a grassy field kept relatively short by grazing or mowing. Lawns do not occur in wild nature – they become meadows, where the grasses grow to full height.
B. Who mows the lawn of Parth Galen?

Aragorn, sensing evil approaching, asks Frodo to use Sting to see if orcs are nearby.
C. In a story like this, what is the chance that Aragorn’s “a shadow and a threat has been growing in my sleep” would prove to be a false alarm?

Anduril was reforged by the Elves of Elrond’s household.
D. Why would Aragorn’s sword not have the same magical quality of sensing nearby evil as does Sting and the blades of Gondolin that The Hobbit featured?

Aragorn speculates that the orcs may be no nearer than the eastern hill across the river, because orcs have never been known to trespass on the west side, on Amon Hen where the Fellowship is camping. He admits that Minas Tirith (Gondor) “no longer holds secure the passages of Anduin”, so it may be possible that the orcs are on the west bank.
E. When did Gondor withdraw its military control of this stretch of the Anduin, and its accompanying magical posts of the Hills of Seeing and Hearing?

F. Is this a guarded allegory of the inability or unwillingness of the Allies to control the Rhineland against the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1930s?

Tolkien devotes considerable space to describing sunrise, and then Tol Brandir as seen by Frodo from Parth Galen.
G. Why the emphasis on fire imagery in the eastern sunrise?

H. Why the emphasis on the inaccessibility, lifelessness, and tower-like nature of Tol Brandir?






Parth Galen (LotR Online)

1.2 Aragorn calls on the Company to decide where to go next
Summary: In the morning, after an ominous sunrise through black clouds in the East, Aragorn calls the company to a council. He says it is time to decide which way to go, and whether to stay together or split up. The choices are: West to Gondor, with Boromir; or East “to the Fear and Shadow” where Frodo’s mission seems to point. Aragorn asks Frodo to make the key decision, which even Gandalf probably could not have made in his stead. Frodo begs for an hour alone, and Aragorn grants it. Sam mutters that he knows what Frodo must do; and also notes that, as Frodo wanders into the woods, only Boromir looks to see where he is going.

Aragorn opens the council by stating the question and itemizing the choices: west to Minas Tirith and “the wars of Gondor”; east to Mordor, phrased as “the Fear and the Shadow”; or break up and “go this way and that”. He emphasizes that they have no more time as the orcs are nearby.
I. Has Aragorn stated all the choices correctly and fairly?

He asks the company about these choices in the form of rhetorical questions, but in reply “no one spoke or moved.”
J. Why does no one speak up: Boromir, Legolas, Gimli, the hobbits?

From the silence Aragorn takes his cue to pass the question to Frodo alone. He refuses to give advice, and speculates that even Gandalf, had he survived to this point, would have been no better a guide to Frodo in his decision.
K. Do you agree with Aragorn that Gandalf had no plan as to how, with whom, and by what route the Ringbearer should enter Mordor and find the Fire?

Frodo begs for some time alone – an hour – and promises to make his decision in that time.
L. How does this proceeding resemble or differ from all the other times that Frodo, and/or his companions, have had to choose a way to fulfill their quest?

M. What does Frodo mean when he says “The burden is heavy”?

Aragorn lets Frodo go for one hour, warning “do not stray far or out of call.”
N. Really? Strider calls a council with no one set off to watch in the woods, then dispatches the Ringbearer alone into the woods – with orcs known to be nearby?

Sam notices that Boromir watches Frodo walk away, while “the others restrained themselves and did not stare at him.” In other words, only Sam and Boromir do not pay the understood courtesy to Frodo’s need for privacy.
O. How are Sam and Boromir paired off in this chapter?




Boromir climbs Amon Hen (Alan Lee)

1.3 Frodo wanders up the Hill and tries to make his decision
Summary: Frodo, at first adrift in the nearby woods, happens on a path or old road that climbs the hill of Amon Hen. He wanders up it in a vague mood, until he comes to another lawn, overlooking the river and Tol Brandir to the east, with a wide stone in the middle of the grass. He sits on the stone and reviews his entire life since he got the Ring, trying to remember what Gandalf had said about the quest for the Fire. He is paralyzed with indecision.

Frodo wanders up the hill – the actual phrasing is, “Frodo found that his feet were leading him up towards the slopes of the hill.”
P. Where else in the story does this phenomenon occur?

His path is “the dwindling ruins of a road of long ago” with old and cracked stairs “in steep places”.
Q. Would what we call a “road” have stairs?

R. How does Tolkien’s theme of ancient glory and present decay fit into this episode?

He comes to another “grassy place”, also referred to as a “lawn”.
S. What are the meanings of the rowan-trees, and the “wide flat stone” in the midst of the glade?

Frodo sits on the stone and time passes as he tries to recall everything Gandalf had told him since Bilbo left the Shire. He is no closer to “a choice”.
T. Does this passage convey that Frodo is in fact paralyzed by Fear, as Sam will interpret his hesitation to the company later in the chapter?

U. Taking the author at his word here, what is the choice that Frodo cannot make?



squire online:
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Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jun 16 2015, 1:27am

Post #2 of 13 (2084 views)
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A little Bit of little import [In reply to] Can't Post

A. Should he have stuck with that idea, or is there a real story reason for Aragorn to have taken them to the west shore, which is implicitly biased towards continuing to Minas Tirith?

I thought that I’ve made it clear that he chose the west shore so that Merry and Pippin could be captured, thus making Treebeard ‘hasty’ so that the huorns and ents could save the day at the Battle of the Hornburg thus saving the West for the Westerners. click (post 15)

B. Who mows the lawn of Parth Galen?

We do know that Nob that “wooly-footed slowcoach” had the parth-mowing business in the courtyard of the Prancing Pony to make himself a few extra silver pennies. We now learn that he was a burgeoning businesshobbit and was branching out with his portable Ronco-Parth-mower.

C. In a story like this, what is the chance that Aragorn’s “a shadow and a threat has been growing in my sleep” would prove to be a false alarm?

Must we now delve into numbers less than negative zero?

D. Why would Aragorn’s sword not have the same magical quality of sensing nearby evil as does Sting and the blades of Gondolin that The Hobbit featured?

If you were cut in half and rebodied you would lose your 'magic' too… Youch!

E. When did Gondor withdraw its military control of this stretch of the Anduin, and its accompanying magical posts of the Hills of Seeing and Hearing?

When it was “Happy Hours” 24/7 and the price of mead at the Old Guesthouse in Minas Tirith was two-for-one.


F. Is this a guarded allegory of the inability or unwillingness of the Allies to control the Rhineland against the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1930s?

'I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations, and always have done so since I grew old and wary enough to detect its presence..’ be it guarded or no!

G. Why the emphasis on fire imagery in the eastern sunrise?

Because it was sunrise on the Parth and Tolkien felt it was much better imagery than ice in the western sunset.

H. Why the emphasis on the inaccessibility, lifelessness, and tower-like nature of Tol Brandir?

Tolkien was into “inaccessibility”, “lifelessness”, and “towers” “towers” “towers”. Besides he knew he was coming to the end of Book 2 and needed some filler, and he liked the word “Tindrock” which translates into Quenya as “Rock of Tind”.



noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 16 2015, 1:37pm

Post #3 of 13 (2078 views)
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Coming, Mr Squire! Coming! [In reply to] Can't Post

'The hour is passed. The Week is wearing away. We must answer this OP"

1.1 The Lawn at Parth Galen - speak of the sward that's a token
Interesting that in early drafts there was to be a camp on the island in the middle of the stream, Tol Brandir. sador was asking only last week whether it's described in such a mysterious and unexplored way that we almost expect Frodo to end up on it. I think though I like it being a place that is nothing to do with the company and their quest. It seems to somehow add to the solidity of Middle-earth to have places like that.

Of course, once Tolkien has decided it is sheer sided, it's obvious why they can't find landing spaces or camp-sites there. Camping on the west bank becomes the only option, the east bank being enemy territory. Moreover, in the last chapter Aragorn had the plan of lugging the boats down "Rauros Foot" - a portage way on the west bank - and then resuming the boating trip down the Anduin. Camping on the west bank is consistent with that plan - though oddly that plan is one that Aragorn doesn't mention in his summary of their choices (or at least, not specifically).

"Who mows the lawn of Parth Galen?" sounds like a trick question - is it the people who police the police?

My most sensible answer - grazing animals. Sheep, goats or rabbits would keep the grass short. Our pet rabbits used to keep the grass down nicely in our back garden when they were younger & more energetic. Deer might be a possibility too.

More speculatively - the place may have some mystical or magical properties. When Aragron says "a fair place in the summer days of old" I wonder whether he means 'fair' as in 'good', 'virtuous' - more than just 'it's a nice spot'

I notice the Fellowship''s boat journey begins and ends on a lawn. The Fellowship breaks on a lawn, and finally comes back together on another lawn. I'm not sure whether this means anything...

In a story like this, what is the chance that Aragorn’s “a shadow and a threat has been growing in my sleep” would prove to be a false alarm?
Not a sausage. I think it's very difficult for a writer to prompt the reader this way, and then have nothing happen - it looks like writer forgot something. So either the feeling will prove to be genuine, or someone will act upon the assumption that it is genuine, and that will drive the plot.


1.2 The Council of Aragorn
I feel like this ought to be compared (and contrasted) with the Council that starts Book II, the Council of Elrond.We don't have the need to catch readers up in this Council, but both result in Frodo's re-affirmation that he must take the Ring. And in this chapter, as in that one, he'll have an odd mental experience at the point where he makes that decision.

As I mentioned before, I think Aragorn's summary misses out the idea of boating any further. But it's hard to tell given his vague wording about routes other than Gondor. I think everyone's reticence is explained when they try to continue the debate in Frodo's absence - except for Sam, they want to go to Minas Tirith, but would be ashamed to do so if Frodo is going to Mordor. Frodo, meanwhile is afraid for himself, no doubt, but I think he realises that his friends will tag along if he heads to Mordor (as he must, really). So not only is it a suicide mission, but he'll sign his friends' death warrants too. Possibly he's also aware of what Aragorn would be giving up by heading East to Mordor instead of West to Gondor. That's why 'the burden is heavy' I think.

It's crazy to let Frodo wander off really. But it does help build Frodo's anguish, maybe Tolkien is thinking a little of the Garden of Gethsemane, and of course it does allow Frodo and Boromir to meet alone.

1.3 Frodo thinks it through
I think the scenes of decayed grandeur nicely set up Frodo's comment to Boromir that he can't trust the strength of Men. But can he trust the plans of Wizards either? And what was that plan? Gandalf, as far as I can tell often wings it, trying to sense the right thing to do by intuition as much as logic. Frodo, I think, is trying to work out whether he's supposed to go alone, with just Sam (the Original Fellowship), or with any or all of the others.


"We have cut the grass, and are waiting patiently for Mr Baggins to decide something. Is this a strange kind of tea-party?"

(Another Oxford fantasy writer on the grass with halflings. http://www.newstatesman.com/...-reveals-about-alice )

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 16 2015, 2:05pm

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The nearest the Fellowship comes to calling themselves a 'Fellowship' [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
What shall now become of our Company that has travelled so far in fellowship?
(Aragorn)


I think this is the closest anyone in the Fellowship gets to calling their band a 'Fellowship'. In the text itself, they tend to be called the Company (just as Aragorn did, just there). It's kinda fun to think they don't know they are a 'Fellowship', but we do from this chapter title, and from the need to call the first Volume of Lord of the Rings something when it was decided to publish it in three instalments. That, if I recall, was a late decision due to the commercial realities of publishing such a long book without a lot of certainty that it would be well received.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


oliphaunt
Lorien


Jun 16 2015, 3:00pm

Post #5 of 13 (2060 views)
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Very large rabbits. [In reply to] Can't Post

A. Should he have stuck with that idea, or is there a real story reason for Aragorn to have taken them to the west shore, which is implicitly biased towards continuing to Minas Tirith?
Saruman's orcs likely wouldn't have been on an island. The story had to move to the west shore.

B. Who mows the lawn of Parth Galen?
Rabbits. Very large ones. They've colonized from Rhosgobel.
Or, perhaps in the days of Middle Earth some grasses did not grow so tall.

D. Why would Aragorn’s sword not have the same magical quality of sensing nearby evil as does Sting and the blades of Gondolin that The Hobbit featured?
The elves have fallen off their magic since the days of Gondolin.

E. When did Gondor withdraw its military control of this stretch of the Anduin, and its accompanying magical posts of the Hills of Seeing and Hearing?
The men have fallen off their military strength since the days of Numenor.

F. Is this a guarded allegory of the inability or unwillingness of the Allies to control the Rhineland against the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1930s?
No. Those more recent events are history repeating itself, as often occurs.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 16 2015, 6:52pm

Post #6 of 13 (2055 views)
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The Fur-footed League [In reply to] Can't Post

Frodo, I think, is trying to work out whether he's supposed to go alone, with just Sam (the Original Fellowship), or with any or all of the others.
You're thinking of the films. The original Fellowship was a company of four: Frodo, Sam, Merry and Pippin (five, if we include Fredegar Bolger)--all of them Hobbits.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 16 2015, 6:57pm

Post #7 of 13 (2053 views)
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Anduril [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
D. Why would Aragorn’s sword not have the same magical quality of sensing nearby evil as does Sting and the blades of Gondolin that The Hobbit featured?
The elves have fallen off their magic since the days of Gondolin.


Right; Anduril wouldn't have the same properties as the swords (and dagger!) forged in Gondolin. And besides, Narsil was originally a dwarvish blade.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 16 2015, 8:04pm

Post #8 of 13 (2039 views)
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Ah, I should have been clearer [In reply to] Can't Post

I was thinking of the book, but thinking that Frodo + Sam was the original team Gandalf expected to go: it's not clear whether Gandalf knew about the 'conspiracy'. I think it could be argued that Pippin & Merry aren't 'Gandalf-approved ' until after Rivendell.

But that's probably yet another possibility for Frodo to puzzle - when Gandalf insisted M&P set out from Rivendell, did that imply they're supposed to go to Mordor.

So much to over-think!

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


oliphaunt
Lorien


Jun 16 2015, 8:11pm

Post #9 of 13 (2041 views)
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home says [In reply to] Can't Post

It's crazy to let Frodo wander off really. But it does help build Frodo's anguish, maybe Tolkien is thinking a little of the Garden of Gethsemane, and of course it does allow Frodo and Boromir to meet alone.

According to HOME, originally Sam followed after Frodo. But I suppose that would have made the Boromir/Frodo scene too crowded. I would expect Sam to follow, but can forgive this lapse since he does find invisible Frodo by the riverside.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 16 2015, 8:24pm

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I see... [In reply to] Can't Post

Okay. I see where you're coming from now.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 18 2015, 3:30pm

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The Council of Aragorn [In reply to] Can't Post

Welcome to squire’s Holiday Camp!

The camp with a difference
You never mind the weather
When you come to squire's
The holiday's forever!



A. Should he have stuck with that idea, or is there a real story reason for Aragorn to have taken them to the west shore, which is implicitly biased towards continuing to Minas Tirith?

It will emphasize the separation when Frodo (and Sam) makes like a Rowan and leaves.


‘Lawn’ as a descriptive term always means a grassy field kept relatively short by grazing or mowing. Lawns do not occur in wild nature – they become meadows, where the grasses grow to full height.
B. Who mows the lawn of Parth Galen?


The spirits of Entwives.


Aragorn, sensing evil approaching, asks Frodo to use Sting to see if orcs are nearby.
C. In a story like this, what is the chance that Aragorn’s “a shadow and a threat has been growing in my sleep” would prove to be a false alarm?


See “Chekhov’s Intuition”.


Anduril was reforged by the Elves of Elrond’s household.
D. Why would Aragorn’s sword not have the same magical quality of sensing nearby evil as does Sting and the blades of Gondolin that The Hobbit featured?


He’s a stealthy ranger and one can’t sneak up on orcs with a glowing torch in hand.


Aragorn speculates that the orcs may be no nearer than the eastern hill across the river, because orcs have never been known to trespass on the west side, on Amon Hen where the Fellowship is camping. He admits that Minas Tirith (Gondor) “no longer holds secure the passages of Anduin”, so it may be possible that the orcs are on the west bank.
E. When did Gondor withdraw its military control of this stretch of the Anduin, and its accompanying magical posts of the Hills of Seeing and Hearing?


Probably when Denethor ordered the repair of Rammas Echor as the new frst line of defense.


F. Is this a guarded allegory of the inability or unwillingness of the Allies to control the Rhineland against the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1930s?

I’m thinking the Dyle Plan, where Belgium abandoned one third of its territory to the Germans before they were even engaged.


Tolkien devotes considerable space to describing sunrise, and then Tol Brandir as seen by Frodo from Parth Galen.
G. Why the emphasis on fire imagery in the eastern sunrise?


Something something Gandalf blah blah blah Narya yadda yadda Gwaihir.


H. Why the emphasis on the inaccessibility, lifelessness, and tower-like nature of Tol Brandir?

Symbolic of Frodo’s Ringquest, Aragorn’s Kingquest, and Boromir’s Blingquest.


Aragorn opens the council by stating the question and itemizing the choices: west to Minas Tirith and “the wars of Gondor”; east to Mordor, phrased as “the Fear and the Shadow”; or break up and “go this way and that”. He emphasizes that they have no more time as the orcs are nearby.
I. Has Aragorn stated all the choices correctly and fairly?


He facilitated the heck out of this meeting.


He asks the company about these choices in the form of rhetorical questions, but in reply “no one spoke or moved.”
J. Why does no one speak up: Boromir, Legolas, Gimli, the hobbits?


No one answered. The noon-bell rang. Still no one spoke. Frodo glanced at all the faces, but they were not turned to him. All the Council sat with downcast eyes, as if in deep thought.
-The Council of Elrond


From the silence Aragorn takes his cue to pass the question to Frodo alone.

Elrond was more subtle, but then he’s had centuries to perfect his manipulative technique:

A great dread fell on him, as if he was awaiting the pronouncement of some doom that he had long foreseen and vainly hoped might after all never be spoken. An overwhelming longing to rest and remain at peace by Bilbo's side in Rivendell filled all his heart. At last with an effort he spoke, and wondered to hear his own words, as if some other will was using his small voice.
`I will take the Ring,' he said, `though I do not know the way.'

-ibid


He refuses to give advice, and speculates that even Gandalf, had he survived to this point, would have been no better a guide to Frodo in his decision.
K. Do you agree with Aragorn that Gandalf had no plan as to how, with whom, and by what route the Ringbearer should enter Mordor and find the Fire?


Gandalf told them exactly how to get the Ring to Mount Doom:

'Fly, you fools! ' he cried, and was gone.
- The Bridge of Khazad-dûm


Frodo begs for some time alone – an hour – and promises to make his decision in that time.
L. How does this proceeding resemble or differ from all the other times that Frodo, and/or his companions, have had to choose a way to fulfill their quest?


After taking five months to leave the Shire, two months to leave Rivendell, and one month or forever to leave Lothorien, one hour seems criminally thoughtless.


M. What does Frodo mean when he says “The burden is heavy”?

Tseng Tzu said, 'A Gentleman must be strong and resolute, for his burden is heavy and the road is long. He takes benevolence as his burden. Is that not heavy? Only with death does the road come to an end. Is that not long?'
-The Analects 8:7


Aragorn lets Frodo go for one hour, warning “do not stray far or out of call.”
N. Really?


Aragorn would seem to be an advocate of “free range hobbits”. Obviously The Reunited Kingdom will not be a nanny state.


Strider would seem to Strider calls a council with no one set off to watch in the woods, then dispatches the Ringbearer alone into the woods – with orcs known to be nearby?

Maybe this is really Strider’s evil twin Redirts. If so he’s had to shave off his goatee so no one recognizes him. (Then again, maybe he didn’t. At times the members of the Fellowship have proven themselves extraordinarily dim.)


Sam notices that Boromir watches Frodo walk away, while “the others restrained themselves and did not stare at him.”

So one would expect that the watchful Sam would have noticed Boromir later sneaking off after his master and done something: followed him, told Aragorn, or summoned the Hobbit Brigade.


In other words, only Sam and Boromir do not pay the understood courtesy to Frodo’s need for privacy.

Boromir at least has the excuse of the allure of the Ring, but Sam has already proven himself thoroughly incorrigible:

’But if you want to be introduced to our chief investigator, I can produce him.'
'Where is he?' said Frodo, looking round, as if he expected a masked and sinister figure to come out of a cupboard.
'Step forward, Sam!' said Merry; and Sam stood up with a face scarlet up to the ears. 'Here's our collector of information! And he collected a lot, I can tell you, before he was finally caught. After which, I may say, he seemed to regard himself as on parole, and dried up.'
'Sam!' cried Frodo, feeling that amazement could go no further, and quite unable to decide whether he felt angry, amused, relieved, or merely foolish.
'Yes, sir!' said Sam. 'Begging your pardon, sir! But I meant no wrong to you, Mr. Frodo, nor to Mr. Gandalf for that matter. *He* has some sense, mind you; and when you said “go alone” he said ”no! lake someone as you can trust”.'

-A Conspiracy Unmasked


O. How are Sam and Boromir paired off in this chapter?

Sam’s concerned about Shire Frodo while Boromir is concerned about Ring Frodo.


Frodo wanders up the hill – the actual phrasing is, “Frodo found that his feet were leading him up towards the slopes of the hill.”
P. Where else in the story does this phenomenon occur?


It’s pretty much a major motif throughout:

’"It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out of your door," he used to say. "You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to.”’
-Three is Company


His path is “the dwindling ruins of a road of long ago” with old and cracked stairs “in steep places”.
Q. Would what we call a “road” have stairs?


No, but many Roman roads did:

http://www.biblewalks.com/Sites/HorvatHanut.html


R. How does Tolkien’s theme of ancient glory and present decay fit into this episode?

Quite nicely.


He comes to another “grassy place”, also referred to as a “lawn”.

Celtic lawns, or “llans”, were sanctified areas.


S. What are the meanings of the rowan-trees,…

But beside them Bregalad spoke gently in their own tongue, almost whispering; and they learned that he belonged to Skinbark's people, and the country where they had lived had been ravaged. That seemed to the hobbits quite enough to explain his 'hastiness', at least in the matter of Orcs.
"There were rowan-trees in my home," said Bregalad, softly and sadly,"rowan-trees that took root when I was an Enting, many many years ago in the quiet of the world. The oldest were planted by the Ents to try and please the Entwives; but they looked at them and smiled and said that they knew where whiter blossom and richer fruit were growing.”

-Treebeard

One wonders if we’ve unknowingly found remants of Skinbark’s home, or perhaps of the Entwives’ gardens, or even some Entwives who’ve gone tree-ish.


… and the “wide flat stone” in the midst of the glade?

For offerings:

’After the Darkness was overthrown the land of the Entwives blossomed richly, and their fields were full of corn. Many men learned the crafts of the Entwives and honoured them greatly…’
-ibid


Frodo sits on the stone and time passes as he tries to recall everything Gandalf had told him since Bilbo left the Shire. He is no closer to “a choice”.
T. Does this passage convey that Frodo is in fact paralyzed by Fear, as Sam will interpret his hesitation to the company later in the chapter?


Then cometh Jesus with them unto a place called Gethsemane, and saith unto the disciples, Sit ye here, while I go and pray yonder.
And he took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be sorrowful and very heavy.
Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour?
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done.
And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.
And he left them, and went away again, and prayed the third time, saying the same words.
Then cometh he to his disciples, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: behold, the hour is at hand, and the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.
Rise, let us be going: behold, he is at hand that doth betray me.

-Matthew 26:36-46


U. Taking the author at his word here, what is the choice that Frodo cannot make?

Shew me thy ways, O LORD; teach me thy paths.
-Psalm 25:4

******************************************

I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


squire
Half-elven


Jun 22 2015, 1:33am

Post #12 of 13 (1949 views)
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'A fair place in the summer days of old' [In reply to] Can't Post

I think the lawn thing is a small matter, but it did make me curious. I often wonder if Tolkien's sense of wild landscapes was too heavily biased by his English habitat, where there is very little wild nature and where lawns - grazed by domesticated or semi-domesticated ruminants - are a common sight on hillsides and on the edges of woods.

That said, I agree with you that Aragorn's comment invites us to consider how alive Nature is in Middle-earth, and to remember a fairly common theme in LotR, that a landscape stays scaped, so to speak, long after a magical or spiritually powerful people have abandoned it. We see this in Hollin and Ithilien, for instance. So the grasses of Parth Galen, once mowed or grazed by the border guards of Imperial Gondor, remember that they are supposed to be a lawn and so continue naturally to grow to a short length.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
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sador
Half-elven


Jun 25 2015, 3:03pm

Post #13 of 13 (1907 views)
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It was bound to happen sometime. [In reply to] Can't Post

My wife and other boss have done their best to postpone this moment - but here I am, in squire's Holiday Camp!
It seems that everyone have went somewhere else to find refreshments...



A. Should he have stuck with that idea, or is there a real story reason for Aragorn to have taken them to the west shore, which is implicitly biased towards continuing to Minas Tirith?
Ugluk and his troop, of course.

And there is something appeaing in the two Hills of Sight and Hearing, with the in accessible peak in the middle, as a symbol of the controlling intelligence.
And there probably was the fleeting idea Tolkien had of having Gwaihir take Gandalf to Tol Brandir, as I've posted recently.

B. Who mows the lawn of Parth Galen?
Well, most dictionairies suggest the word derives from the French Launde, which means an open glade in the woodland.
But I am more intrigued by the other (connected) possible root - the Celtic Llan, with its religious connotations.
Was Parth Galen sacred? To Whom?

C. In a story like this, what is the chance that Aragorn’s “a shadow and a threat has been growing in my sleep” would prove to be a false alarm?
After reading what this_important_critic had written, there is always a chance.

D. Why would Aragorn’s sword not have the same magical quality of sensing nearby evil as does Sting and the blades of Gondolin that The Hobbit featured?
Could they add in qualities it did not originally possess?
Also, Sting is smaller (even proportionally to a hobbit, according to the older book), and easier to draw.

E. When did Gondor withdraw its military control of this stretch of the Anduin, and its accompanying magical posts of the Hills of Seeing and Hearing?
If those seats would have served only the Kings, I guess the Stewards felt the need to safeguard them less acutely; and Dol Guldur was too near.
Of course, when Calenardhon became Rohan, the whole of their North border was shortened.

Now the idea of the Seats being reserved for the use of kings only, conjures in my mind an image of a newly-widowed Denethor ascending Amon Hen, only to find that he is granted no sight... leading to his answer to the young Boromir's question (reported by Faramir in The Window on the West), and eventually to his fall to the lure of the palantir.

F. Is this a guarded allegory of the inability or unwillingness of the Allies to control the Rhineland against the rise of Nazi Germany in the 1930s?
Hardly so.
Not because I insist on Tolkien's cordial dislike of allegory - Shippey among others has argued in length that however he protested his dislike of it, he was ready to use allegory when needed - but because the cases are not similar. Cutting the line of defense to the Entwash valley was very sensible; and anyway, it's not as if there were many raids crossing the River from the North, before the Balchoth came.

But if this was indeed a hallowed site - it can hint at the modern materalisitic, utilitarian secular governments being willing to negotiate or relinquish what was once sacred for more 'tangible' benefits.

G. Why the emphasis on fire imagery in the eastern sunrise?
I'm not saying that this was Tolkien's intention, but it forms a great frame for Aragorn's adventures in Books III and V.
The sun rises in the east, lighting his way west - to Fangorn, Rohan and Isengard. Only when he finishes his mission there he reaches Minas Anor, the Tower of the Setting Sun, and before entering it as King, he says (The Houses of Healing):

Quote
Behold the Sun setting in a great fire! It is a sign of the end and fall of many things, and a change in the tides of the world. But this City and realm has rested in the charge of the Stewards for many long years, and I fear that if I enter it unbidden, then doubt and debate may arise, which should not be while this war is fought. I will not enter in, nor make any claim, until it be seen whether we or Mordor shall prevail.



H. Why the emphasis on the inaccessibility, lifelessness, and tower-like nature of Tol Brandir?
I've offered an answer above.



I. Has Aragorn stated all the choices correctly and fairly?
Well, getting captured is not exactly an option...

They could have tried going to Rohan, of course; but what good would that be? And flinging the Ring in the River and bolting (as Sam mentioned) is not really a good idea. But Aragorn seems to speak as if the way to Mordor is clear and easy - which it isn't; so you might say he diminishes the odds against choosing to go to Mordor.
Oddly enough, he says nothing about the North Stair and taking to the water below Rauros; but I've called attention to that in the discussion of the previous chapter already.

J. Why does no one speak up: Boromir, Legolas, Gimli, the hobbits?
They accept that it is not their task; they are supposed to help Frodo. If he asks for advice, they will offer it (and Boromir will offer his, even without being asked).

K. Do you agree with Aragorn that Gandalf had no plan as to how, with whom, and by what route the Ringbearer should enter Mordor and find the Fire?
According to all that Gandalf said, it might be so; and judging by the drafts published in HoME, it seems that Tolkien had no clear idea...

But I doubt that he had no plan. He would have surely left it to Frodo's decision, but would have probably given him a few hints and propmpts.

L. How does this proceeding resemble or differ from all the other times that Frodo, and/or his companions, have had to choose a way to fulfill their quest?
Well, it appears to be Frodo's decision when to leave Bag-end, to accept Strider and to follow Gollum (three times: at the Emyn Muil, near the Black Gate, and at Henneth Annun), with the other hobbits letting him decide.
The Fellowship as a group argue about going into Moria (before that, Gandalf and Aragorn did between them) and then Lorien.
After the Breaking of the Fellowship, Legolas and Gimli leave the decisions to Aragorn.
So arguably, letting Frodo decide is a sign of the Breaking of the Fellowship.

M. What does Frodo mean when he says “The burden is heavy”?
I think what Sam will say later in this chapter reflects it. The others don't understand, of course; and neither does the reader, yet.

N. Really? Strider calls a council with no one set off to watch in the woods, then dispatches the Ringbearer alone into the woods – with orcs known to be nearby?
Erm... just like he set no watch after leaving Lothlorien?

O. How are Sam and Boromir paired off in this chapter?
They both think for themselves, and thing out of the box.
With Boromir, this leads to his downfall.


P. Where else in the story does this phenomenon occur?
Oh my, I don't remember. There is his dream of the White Tower, of course.

Anywhere else? Cerin Amroth? I do not remember such a description there.
Or do you mean the Barrow-downs? But there he had lost his sense of direction.

I have it! You probably means the bridge before Minas Morgul.

Q. Would what we call a “road” have stairs?
Would what we call a "river" have locks?
Tolkien was an Englishman, remember.

R. How does Tolkien’s theme of ancient glory and present decay fit into this episode?
Less than at the crossroads, Weathertop, or even the Argonath. (Or in different ways, Lothlorien and Minas Tirith).
I think it is rather downplayed, in fact.

S. What are the meanings of the rowan-trees, and the “wide flat stone” in the midst of the glade?
An altar?

T. Does this passage convey that Frodo is in fact paralyzed by Fear, as Sam will interpret his hesitation to the company later in the chapter?
Not necessarily.

U. Taking the author at his word here, what is the choice that Frodo cannot make?
Here, is seems to mean a choice between several options. But I trust Sam.

Wait! Maybe I shouldn't - in The Black Gate is Closed, Frodo takes him by surprise; also in The Taming of Smeagol, and arguably before that when offering the Ring to Galadriel.


 
 

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