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sador
Half-elven
Jun 14 2015, 12:04pm
Post #1 of 27
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** 'The Fellowship of the Ring' book II, ch. 9-3, 'The Great River': 'The last stage of the Quest was before them'
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Over the night, the weather changes.
The air grew warm and very still under the great moist clouds that had floated up from the South and the distant seas. The rushing of the River over the rocks of the rapids seemed to grow louder and closer. The twigs of the trees above them began to drip.
When the day came the mood of the world about them had become soft and sad. Slowly the dawn grew to a pale light, diffused and shadowless. There was mist on the River, and white fog swathed the shore; the far bank could not be seen.
Why would the sounds of the River seem to grow closer? Shouldn't the mist absorb the noise? Or is this an effect of the fall of the Winged Messenger, and the silence on the Eastren bank? Or of the gradual subsiding of their fear?
In the morning, they wake to a strange shrouded world. How does this description compare to the morning after they were defeated by Caradhras? (quoted below)
As the light grew stronger it showed a strange shrouded world. Below their refuge were white humps and domes and shapeless deeps beneath which the path that they had trodden was altogether lost; but the heights above were hidden in great clouds still heavy with the threat of snow.
- The Ring Goes South.
Sam says he normally can't abide fog, but in this case he hopes it would help escaping the Orcs; but Aragorn is concerned with finding the path.
Is Sam's dislike of fog connected with his work as a gardener? Is fog so detrimental to his work? Or is this just a case of a down-to-earth person, who dislikes being unable to see a clear path before his feet? In which case, why isn't Boromir oppressed? Or is Sam's feeling a result of the adventure in the Barrow-downs? In that case, I would think his being able to rise above the trauma and see the fog for a blessing is remarkable.
It appears that Aragorn's plan is still to follow the River. While Celeborn only advised the Fellowship to follow the River until Tol Brandir (which means using the portage-route around Sarn Gebir), Aragorn means to take the boats 'by the ancient way to Rauros-foot, and there take to the water again'. Boromir objects.
It seems that so far the river journey hasn't helped Aragorn make up his mind, does it?
How far would he follow the Anduin? In The Siege of Gondor, Denethor will say that the river is unpassable above Cair Andros, and they have been caught once already; what was he thinking?
Why did Celeborn not mention the ancient road? Does he know that it no longer exists?
I will look at the debate between Aragorn and Boromir later, but here I want to note Aragorn's argument against crossing the Entwash.
The vale of Entwash is flat and fenny, and fog is a deadly peril there for those on foot and laden.
We meet the Entwash in book III, much further up its course. However, looking at the map we notice that its inflow into the Anduin results in a truly tremendous delta of (probably treacherous) fens. According to the online resources (based on a comment in Unfinished Tales), the massive amount of water flooded the Eastern bank, creating the marshes of the Nindalf (Wetwang).
Does any similar inland delta exist? From a casual research, neither the inflow of the Missouri into the Missisipi or the Irtysh into the Ob seem to come nearly close.
Do you wish someone of the Fellowship came to that region, so that we could read more about it?
Shouldn't this area be even more dangerous and treacherous? How could Aragorn consider it the safer route?
And again, coming from a discussion leader who has little visual imagination:
Do you have any images of artwork depicting this inflow, or or any real landscapes somehow resembling it?
And the end, Boromir agrees to go with the Fellowship until the Tindrock.
So Aragorn and Legolas seek the ancient portage-way, instructing the others to wait for one day.
It was with a heavy heart that Frodo saw Aragorn and Legolas climb the steep bank and vanish into the mists; but his fears proved groundless. Only two or three hours had passed, and it was barely mid-day, when the shadowy shapes of the explorers appeared again.
What did Frodo fear?
Is Tolkien warning us against putting too much trust in our intuition?
I guess most readers remember the portage-way from the bantering exchange between Boromir and Gimli about carrying the boats down it.
I will turn to it in the appended post; here I wish to concentrate on the description of the way (and as usual, ask for any relevant images).
It sloped up away from the River, a tumbled waste of grey limestone-boulders, with many hidden holes shrouded with weeds and bushed: there were thickets of brambles, and sheer dells; and here and there boggy pools fed by waters trickling from the terraces further inland.
And after the boats are finally carried down:
Fog still hung in veils upon the crumbling rock-wall, and to their left shrouded the River: they could hear it rushing and foaming over the sharp shelves and stony teeth of Sarn Gebir, but they could not see it.
Any comments, or images?
In the afternoon of the next day, the Company reach what might be the most spectacular touring site in Middle-earth.
"'Behold the Argonath, the Pillars of the Kings!' cried Aragorn. 'We shall pass them soon. Keep the boats in line, and as far apart as you can! Hold the middle of the stream!'
As Frodo was borne towards them the great pillars rose like towers to meet him. Giants they seemed to him, vast grey figures silent but threatening. Then he saw that they were indeed shaped and fashioned: the craft and power of old had wrought upon them, and still they preserved through the suns and rains of forgotten years the mighty likenesses in which they had been hewn. Upon great pedestals founded in the deep waters stood two great kings of stone: still with blurred eyes and crannied brows they frowned upon the North. The left hand of each was raised palm outwards in gesture of warning; in each right hand there was an axe; upon each head there was a crumbling helm and crown. Great power and majesty they still wore, the silent wardens of a long-vanished kingdom. Awe and fear fell upon Frodo, and he cowered down, shutting his eyes and not daring to look up as the boat drew near. Even Boromir bowed his head as the boats whirled by, frail and fleeting as little leaves, under the enduring shadow of the sentinels of Númenor. So they passed into the dark chasm of the Gates.
I just had to copy this; I hope you will forgive me the length, and that it involves to breach of copyright.
Why are the eyes blurred? And were the brows originally crannied – or are both of these the sign of the wearing down of 'the suns and rains of forgotten years'?
Is Gondor a 'long-vanished kingdom'?
Frodo and Sam's reactions (I haven't copied Sam's, because I had to stop somewhere) seem natural. But why the emphasis on Boromir's bowing his head? Is he supposed to be the bravest, or the most irreverent – even towards the 'sentinels of Númenor'?
Again – any images of artwork depicting them? We all know Jackson's; I've read Bakshi's was atrocious, but I don't remember it and the results of googling images are a bit confusing; and I expect several artists have tried their hand. Could anyone help?
Aragorn's reaction to the Argonath is important, but will be discussed in a further post.
The sun, already long fallen from the noon, was shining in a windy sky. The pent waters spread out into a long oval lake, pale Nen Hithoel, fenced by steep grey hills whose sides were clad with trees, but their heads were bare, cold-glimmering in the sunlight. At the far southern end rose three peaks.
This is another beautiful description; the most striking of the three is obviously Tol Brandir, the Tindrock – the island in the middle of the River which is crowned with birds, but nothing which walks has ever set foot upon – so steep and sheer are its slopes.
Is there anything slightly similar to this in the Primary World?
I am sure there are, however, several such mythical islands. What do they signify? Did you expect that Frodo would mysteriously somehow end upon it?
Over the last two days, the Fellowship have passed the Rapids, another half-a-day or more of drifting (how far should that take them?), and now this placid lake, which is reached through the momentous Gates of Argonath, and is drained by the tremendous (I supposed so) Falls of Rauros.
Does this resemble anything we know from the Primary World? The nearest thing I can think of are the Iron_Gates on the Danube.
The tenth day of their journey was over. Wilderland was behind them. They could go no further without choice between the east-way and the west. The last stage of the Quest was before them.
What does it mean 'Wilderland was behind them'? Is Wilderland was a specific region? Except for the ancient border of Gondor, what happens below Rauros?
I assume the land does change, for better or worse – as Tolkien says the Fellowship 'could go no further without choice between the east-way and the west'. In which case, does this indicate Aragorn's plan mentioned above was impossible?
Is the dramatic final sentence of this chapter the last 'fossil' of Tolkien's initial plan to make The Lord of the Rings less than thirty chapters long?
And did this journey indeed help them towards their choice – or did it just postpone it?
I will post this now, and add the two supplementary posts – one about Boromir, and the other about Aragorn, when I get around to finalizing them; that way squire can begin his discussion of the next chapter when it is ready; and I apologize again for being late.
(This post was edited by sador on Jun 14 2015, 12:06pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 14 2015, 2:33pm
Post #2 of 27
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We made it to Rauros! Well done sador. I'll try to do a more thorough reply this time, rather than picking off isolated 'Tolkien punts'
The fog
I like the way Tolkien builds up to the fog, in the passage you quote. The increasing humidity is carefully (and beautifully) described. So when they wake up an it is foggy it doesn't seem a if the author has just conjured it up. I don't know enough meterology to be sure, but I think Tolkein is careful about that kind of thing.
I do think fog does odd things to acoustics. The air is denser because it is so moist, and so can conduct some kinds of sound better than dry air http://www.komonews.com/.../scott/34608154.html I've got a feeling that this might apply to low-frequency sounds more than high-frequency sounds (hence fog horns are not whistles). Any physicists around to comment more?
I think there's also a subjective effect - a person in fog sees less, so hears more carefully, perhaps.
Fog's clearly a practical problem for finding your way about. That applies both to the problems of finding the way and not falling down the many "hidden holes" and "sheer dales" that are mentioned. Those would be quite a practical problem, I'd have thought - imagine the predicament of someone breaking a leg!
On the other hand, getting away from those orcs is imperative, and the cover of the fog helps with that, as Sam says. Maybe Aragorn differs from Boromir because he thinks that keeping to the portage path is a more sensible option than going cross-country? The portage way once found, might be easier to follow, and should they get lost, they won't be too far from the river, so ought to be able to re-orient themselves.
The physical geography
Karen Wynn Fonstead's 'The Atlas of Middle Earth' has a section on the Emyn Muil, trying to reverse-engineer the geology from Tolkien's description of his fictive landscape. I would understand this better if I knew more geology, but my understanding at present is that we're in a karst landscape, like Mammoth cave (Kentucky USA) or the Cetina river canyon (Croatia). I think this kind of landscape is created when underlying limestone is eroded away, causing big underground caves into which some of the surface rock layers to collapse. That might explain the Nen Hithoel (the lake fills a sinkhole). I Kinda see how you might also get the sheer cliffs of the two Amons, and the island in the middle of the river - if I've understood correctly, they are harder rock that hasn't fallen into sinkholes, so that there's cliffs that form a natural dam, down which the falls of Rauros rush. Ms Fonstead cometns that the shelving shore at Parth Galen is just what you'd expect - made of sediment dumped by the water as it queues to exit down the falls.
Th Entwash delta, Ms Fonstead says is also feasible - a stream rushing down hill (including lots of streams from the White Mountains) enters flatter land. The water slows and can no longer carry sediment. The river breaks up into braided streams, which slow down the flow still more. So you get a marshy area until the water finally drains into the Anduin
I think it's impressive that Tolkien's landscapes are so geographically feasible! He doesn't just make up something convenient for his story without thinking further -it's a landscape realistic enough to be retrofitted with credible geography and geology.
Aragorn's plans and Boromir's
I'm not sure how much further downriver it would be either practical or safe to go. The 'North Stair' seems to be the only way down the side of the Falls of Rauros> No ideas whether they could hope to get their boats down it, or whether it would be unsafe to travel by river any further because of orcs. I can't imagine what Aragorn was planning to do. But I think he distrusts whatever Boromir is planning to do...
what did Frodo fear
I'm not sure - possibly the fellowship losing Aragorn as well as Gandalf? If that happened that would probably increase Boromir's influence, and Frodo is cautious about Boromir.
The Argonath
I think they have wrinkled brows and blurred eyes because they are getting old. There's a metaphor of decay and decline of the once-mighty.
I think Boromir is likely to be the one least impressed - he's surrounded by massive Gondorian statuary at home, so he's used to it. He doesn't have the link with Old Gondor that Aragorn has: he's more of a man of new Gondor.
The last stage of the Quest was before them.
Yes it could be a 'fossil' from a shorter book. Or it could be wishful thinking on the part of the Fellowship ('all we have to do now is sneak into Mordor'). Or it might be a true statement, depending upon how one defines 'stage'.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets"  : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 14 2015, 3:18pm
Post #3 of 27
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Imagine this (the Wulingyuan Scenic Area in China) flooded! I mean REALLY flooded, so that the water level comes about a third of teh way up this picture. It would look a bit like Tol Brandir in the middle with the two 'Amons' either side
From https://roadtrippers.com/...-behind-their-photos where it features as one of a collection of places that are often seen in their photoshopped versions...
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
Jun 14 2015, 9:22pm
Post #4 of 27
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Well, possibly none of the fellowship had been that way. Unless poor little Smeagol counts! He might well have gone there in his wanderings.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 15 2015, 1:13pm
Post #5 of 27
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'I do not see why we should pass the Rapids or follow the River any further,' said Boromir. 'If the Emyn Muil lie before us, then we can abandon these cockle-boats, and strike westward and southward, until we come to the Entwash and cross into my own land.' There he goes again, harping on the same idea!
In this discussion, I want to look a bit at the character of Boromir. As I have noted before, he is the one member of the Fellowship we always see from the outside. In order to understand him a bit more, we need to carefully read what we know about him.
In this chapter, he seems to drift away from the other members of the Fellowship. At first, we read how Pippin and Merry are ill at ease with his unquiet and nervousness; then at Sarn Gebir, he rebukes Aragorn for his misjudgment, and assumes leadership for the moment, shouting out instructions (not necessarily a bad thing!); after Legolas shoots the Winged Messenger, he says no words of praise (well, only Gimli does) and has no say in the debate about Elvish time (which he might have, or might have not, overheard) – but he does pounce on Frodo's guess as to who, or what, the Messenger was: Frodo dries up as soon as Boromir questions him, and we are given to think that his discomfort is not unconnected to the identity of his interlocutor.
And in the last part of this chapter, he gets into a couple of testy dialogues with other members of the Fellowship:
'We can, if we are making for Minas Tirith,' said Aragorn, 'but that is not yet agreed… I would not abandon our boats until we must. The River is at least a path that cannot be missed.'
'But the Enemy holds the eastern bank,' objected Boromir. 'And even if you pass the Gates of Argonath and come unmolested to the Tindrock, what will you do then? Leap down the Falls and land in the marshes?'
'No!' answered Aragorn. 'Say rather that we will bear our boats by the ancient way to Rauros-foot, and there take to the water again. Do you not know, Boromir, or do you choose to forget the North Stair, and the high seat upon Amon Hen, that were made in the days of the great kings? I at least have a mind to stand in that high place again before I decide my further course. There, maybe, we shall see some sign that will guide us.'
As promised, I will devote a separate post to Aragorn. But doesn't it seem that he is losing his temper with annoyance?
As have been said before, Aragorn's idea to take to the water is not quite his best, and it was Celeborn himself who recommended turning towards the Entwash.
Why doesn't Boromir cite Celeborn's authority to answer Aragorn's objection? Or make no answer to it at all, apart from one-upping him on his plan?
Does this have anything to do with his apparent contempt for the 'cockle-boats'? What is a 'cockle-boat'? (yes, I know it appears in Bombadil Goes Boating; but I still do not know what it is, why would Tom use it, and if Boromir's use of the term is descriptive or prejorative).
Just before dropping the subject, I must mention that before, Boromir said:
But no boat can live in Sarn Gebir, be it night or day.
While Aragorn phrased the same concern in a different way:
'Boats of the Elves would not sink, maybe,' he said, 'but that does not say that we should come through Sarn Gebir alive. None have ever done so yet.'
See the difference? Is Boromir naturally suspicious of the elven-boats?
Considering that his funeral boat passed Rauros, was he found ultimately wrong? Or are the Rapids (or the land of Gondor beyond them) a completely different thing?
Be that as may, Boromir relents:
'It is not the way of the Men of Minas Tirith to desert their friends at need,' he said, 'and you will need my strength, if ever you are to reach the Tindrock. To the tall isle I will go, but no further. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help as not earned the reward of any companionship.'
Why does he agree to stay with them until the Tindrock? Does he still accept Aragorn's authority? Or does he hope the Ranger will finally see the correct sign?
Won't they need his strength to carry the boats in the ancient road to Rauros foot?
Why should he deserve companionship as a reward?
So Boromir does not object to Aragorn's setting out with Legolas to search for the path, but offers a parting shot:
'No road was made by the Men of Gondor in this region [said Aragorn], for even in their great days their realm did not reach up Anduin beyond the Emyn Muil; but there is a portage-way somewhere on the western shore, if I can find it. It cannot yet have perished; for light boats used to journey out of Wilderland down to Osgiliath, and still did so until a few years ago, when the Orcs of Mordor began to multiply.'
'Seldom in my life has any boat come out of the North, and the Orcs prowl on the east-shore,' said Boromir. 'If you go forward, peril will grow with every mile, even if you find a path.'
Is he contradicting Aragorn?
After Aragorn, there is also an argument with Gimli! But to be sure, it was the dwarf who struck first:
'All is well,' said Aragorn, as he clambered down the bank.
...I fear we must leave the River now, and make for the portage-way as best we can from here.'
'That would not be easy, even if we were all Men,' said Boromir.
'Yet such as we are we will try it,' said Aragorn.
'Aye, we will,' said Gimli. 'The legs of Men will lag on a rough road, while a Dwarf goes on, be the burden twice his own weight, Master Boromir!'
What stung him? Was it resentment over the assumption that Men were stronger? Wasn't this assumption more or less proven right up Caradhras?
Or was it sheer annoyance with the malcontent who is always grumbling against the leadership? In which case, was the sentiment shared by others? Or was it, perhaps, a latent resentment against Boromir's words of suspicion towards Lady Galadriel?
And if you talk so big, Master Dwarf, why do you let the two Men carry the boats one by one, and do not take at least one, let's say with your pal the Elf?
To his credit, Boromir does not answer this taunt. At least not now; but once the boats and luggage are all safe at the foot of the Rapids:
'Well, here we are, and here we must pass another night,' said Boromir. 'We need sleep, and even if Aragorn had a mind to pass the Gates of Argonath by night, we are all too tired—except, no doubt, our sturdy dwarf.'
Gimli made no reply: he was nodding as he sat.
Is this remark good-natured, or spiteful?
What should we make of Boromir? What made him such a contrarian? I would like to offer two suggestions, which are not mutually exclusive; it is quite possible that both are correct, in some combination.
The character of Boromir was conceived while Trotter was still a hobbit, and he was the representative of Men in the Fellowship, as well as a foil to Gandalf. This naturally made him the least sympathetic of the company, as well as the most useful (as the only man).
That phase of writing was dropped at Balin's tomb; and Tolkien began writing again, with Trotter (later Strider) becoming a Man, and the secret true heir to the throne of Ond – the land in which Boromir's father was king. Combined with the characteristics he carried over from the previous phase, he becomes a thoroughly unpleasant fellow – perhaps even an antagonist. In the plot outlines which Christopher Tolkien published in The Treason of Isengard, the following twist appears (page 210):
Evil has now hold of Boromir who is jealous of Aragorn. The Lord of Minas Tirith is slain and they choose Aragorn. Boromir deserts and sneaks off to Saruman, to get his help in becoming Lord of Minas Tirith.
Whoa! Of course, this is a bit inconsistent with Boromir's being the son of the king (as Christopher mentions in his notes), but Tolkien has dealt with similar inconsistencies before, and doubtless could have found a way to resolve them – for instance, by the 'Steward' concept he ultimately used. But the point is that this general plotline survived until after the writing of the Lórien chapters.
It was only at the end of writing the chapters that became Book II, when Tolkien had decided that Boromir would actually be slain, and redeem himself by a noble death. And in further chapters, the death of Boromir became a symbol of the flower of manhood which perishes in the war – in the words of Éomer, Gandalf himself, Théoden and then (naturally) Faramir and Denethor. So when the Book II chapters were revised, he became a more nuanced character, essentially good who is overcome by external forces he cannot resist – or else he does not recognize until resistance has become impossible.
I will offer here in brief two suggestions, both based on hints that Faramir drops in The Window on the West.
I. Following the dream
Always follow your dreams,
Don't let them fade away.
if you lose sight of your goal,
it will haunt you some day.
– Jon M. Nelson
As we know, Boromir set out to Rivendell acting on a dream that he had. Perhaps the Valar originally intended Faramir to set out, but not necessarily: if I understand correctly, the dream occurred first when they were both in Ithilien, and came to Boromir immediately before Osgiliath was overrun.
In the dream, Boromir was enjoined to seek for the sword that was broken – and he had found it indeed; he was apparently satisfied with the solution that the sword came with its owner, and he saw himself as finally fulfilling the historical destiny of the House of Stewards, and bringing the King back to Gondor. He probably was not sure about Isildur's Bane being a mere token, but as the Council seemed to insist (counsels that are 'stronger than Morgúl-spells') this was so, he had to accept that. Nevertheless, his path with Aragorn coincided with that of the Fellowship for many leagues.
From Faramir, we know that as a youth he wondered why his father was not a king; and was answered that Gondor was a place of true majesty, in which the true line of kings could never be supplanted.
'Alas! poor Boromir. Does that not tell you something of him?'
'It does,' said Frodo. 'Yet he always treated Aragorn with honour.'
'I doubt it not,' said Faramir. 'If he were satisfied of Aragorn's claim, as you say, he would greatly reverence him. But the pinch had not yet come. They had not yet reached Minas Tirith or become rivals in her wars.'
If he indeed was satisfied of Aragorn's claim, he would willingly follow him; more than that – he had found the true destiny of his family, and he was to fulfill the duty of bringing it to fruition.
There is the twist, though, at the end of Faramir's words. What does 'rivals in her wars' mean? Surely, that either would try to outdo the other in feats of honour. Now Faramir might have his own agenda here, and is reaching out to Frodo (and Sam), building up trust while lulling their suspicions, angling to learn their true purposes which they keep secret; but as he says, he would not trap an orc with falsehood! No, he traps them with truth, and the truth is that Boromir, used as he was to be first and foremost in every venture, would have (at the same time of finding his destiny) felt it irksome to play second fiddle to anybody, be he the Heir of Elendil.
So he goes with Aragorn; and despite being the most useful member of the Fellowship on Caradhras he is outvoted regarding going to Moria. On that occasion he had noted how reluctant Frodo is to think critically of Gandalf, even after the first path the wizard has led them through has abysmally failed. So he goes through Moria, probably marking with satisfaction (mingled with a tiny bit of competitveness) Aragorn's prowess as a fighter – but it turns out that he was right after all, and Moria does house the worst of enemies save Sauron (did you notice that he said so, and Gandalf rebuked him?).
On the other side of the Mountains, he accepts Aragorn's leadership. It is only fitting, of course – once Gandalf has fell, the mantle of leadership falls upon the new King of Men, who is supposed to assume the responsibility for the free world. And while at first Aragorn continues following the polan Gandalf laid for the Fellowship, going through Lothlórien and down the Anduin instead of Rohan, which Boromir would think natural, he follows him. True, he has his misgivings about Galadriel – which are again proven entirely true, seeing that within less than a month Frodo offers her the Ring; but he knows well his duty.
Only at the last night in Lórien, when it appears that most of the Fellowship are in favour of going to Minas Tirith (an option raised by no other than Celeborn), Aragorn fails to show leadership, and makes no sign. He is still in doubt, and so is Frodo; Boromir begins to realize that perhaps he was wrong, and while he did find the Sword that was broken, and was shown Isildur's Bane – he might need to return to his father empty-handed.
'I shall go to Minas Tirith, alone if need be, for it is my duty,' said Boromir.
But later, when he tries to persuade Frodo, he feels he is just digging his own grave.
So in our chapter, Boromir is torn in two; he still hopes to sway Aragorn and Frodo to seeing things the right way, and he is ever loyal – even when Aragorn and Gimli speak harshly to him (I am trying to reconstruct Boromir's point of view, so please don't argue whose fault it was), he agrees to help them all the way to Tol Brandir, at which stage even Celeborn said he should leave. And when Aragorn and Legolas go scouting, he does nothing untoward. He is staunch and faithful.
But he begins to have his doubts. At first, Aragorn lets the boats float downstream, as if a month hasn't been already lost by tarrying in Lórien. Then, when the Ranger suddenly comes up with the bright idea of setting a watch, and of rowing – he miscalculates the distances and leads them to the Rapids at near-midnight. And then he wants to take to the River again, citing some old historical precedents – even considering boating through the Entwash delta less dangerous than crossing the Entwash further upstream!
In short, Boromir seems to lose confidence in Aragorn – who seems to have turned his back on his mission as Heir of Elendil, trying to be a surrogate Gandalf instead. And he notices that Frodo begins to avoid him. And all the while, he gets nearer home, and has to face the galling prospect of returning home empty-handed, after a long journey while he was needed at home. He becomes naturally a bit testy. And what should he do? Maybe on Amon Hen, Aragorn will see something that will inspire him.
II. 'Of that few none have escaped unscathed'
'Boromir, O Boromir!' he cried. 'What did she say to you, the Lady that dies not? What did she see? What woke in your heart then? Why went you ever to Laurelindórenan, and came not by your own road, upon the horses of Rohan riding home in the morning?'
As Faramir suspected, another critical factor in the Fall of Boromir is his sojourn in Lórien. What happened there? He did indeed question Frodo in length about what he did the Lady offer him, and then warned him darkly against her.
What woke in his heart, when she questioned him? What did she offer, as if it was in her power? She surely did not offer him the idea of taking the Ring from Frodo by force. Did she offer him her connivance? Did she suggest using the Ring – either herself, or Aragorn, with himself as the Captain of the West? I note that in the next chapter, he still puts Aragorn before himself – but this is intruding too much upon ground which squire is about to cover.
In that case, he surely would want to know what Frodo was offered. Was he pressured, or tempted, to yield the Ring voluntarily (as we know, bit Boromir doesn't, he eventually did)?
I have suggested in previous threads that perhaps Galadriel did in a way scheme for the Ring; whether she did or did not, Boromir must have felt the possibility. And please note that even if she just offered it to him as a temptation, this is the first time he knows somebody from the Wise considering this option in a serious manner, and not instinctively recoiling like Elrond and Gandalf did!
Time passes in Lórien. We do not know how Boromir experienced it – if this has been an illusion, which mortals could experience either way, it is very possible that while Frodo and Sam experienced it as moving swiftly (while the epiphany on Cerin Amroth sunk in) while Boromir felt it moving slower, and slower. Could he not have been chafing at the bit?
I return to the debate in the last night before leaving Lórien:
'I shall go to Minas Tirith, alone if need be, for it is my duty,' said Boromir; and after that he was silent for a while, sitting with his eyes fixed on Frodo... 'If you wish only to destroy the Ring,' he said, 'then there is little use in war and weapons; and the Men of Minas Tirith cannot help. But if you wish to destroy the armed might of the Dark Lord, then it is folly to go without force into his domain…'
Frodo looked at Aragorn, but he seemed deep in his own thought and made no sign that he had heeded Boromir's words.
This is a reworking of a draft which was written with the previous concept of Boromir as the antagonist. But it is no mere 'fossil', as it has been carefully reworked. The original read (The Treason of Isengard, p. 271):
…But if you wish to destroy the Lord, then there is little use in going without force into his domain.
The draft speaks of destroying Sauron; and even if the evil Boromir is thinking of joining forces with Saruman, it makes sense. But the final, reworked version, he speaks only of destroying the armed might of Sauron – he seems to subconsciously realize that using the Ring is just playing to win the war-game, not to save the world. Elrond's words of the Ring taking over the victorious general have sunk, and he does not even consider the idea that after defeating Sauron, they could redeem Isildur's failure, and cast the Ring into the Fire then.
Then they leave. Galadriel gives him a golden belt – meaning that he is still connected to her. How? He does not know. Is he still supposed to sieze the Ring and join forces with her? Or is Aragorn? But he will never turn upon a friend, never harm Frodo. And Frodo does not seem to realize that the path by which Gandalf has led him has turned wrong, on every single instance! Gandalf himself had paid the price, but still Aragorn steers according to the course the wizard has charted. So Boromir watches, but with dwindling hope that plain good sense would ever prevail.
I will try to complete the post about Aragorn today, but I doubt it. At any rate, it will be shorter than this one.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 15 2015, 2:51pm
Post #6 of 27
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9-3 II: "Well, here we are. Fine leadership!"
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This nearly became the only chapter discussion I've led which did not include any riddle.
So here is an easy one: where does the thread title come from?
This is the final discussion opener in this chapter. I have found it really heavy going – it is far more difficult for me to find the time to write and post that it was a few years ago. I am tempted to say this will be the last RR discussion I will lead – but I've made those promises/threats/decisions before, so who knows?
Anyway, let's wind up with Aragorn.
We have discussed Aragorn's questionable decisions before: letting the boats drift according to the current (and misestimating its speed), and not alerting the others about Gollum – not even setting a watch until Frodo and Sam notice the wretch themselves!
However, his leadership is never quite in question. He makes the decisions regarding rowing and setting the watch, and he has the final word in both fascinating debates at Sarn Gebir –regarding the Winged Messenger, and Elvish Time.
Here, for the first time, his authority is questioned:
'I do not see why we should pass the rapids or follow the River any further,' said Boromir.' If the Emyn Muil lie before us, then we can abandon these cockle-boats andstrike westwards and southwards, until we come to the Entwash and cross into my land'.
'We can, if we are making to Minas Tirith,' said Aragorn. 'But that is not yet agreed…
The vale of Entwash is flat and fenny, and fog is a deadly peril there for those on foot and laden'…
'And even if you pass the Gates of Argonath and come unmolested to the Tindrock, what will you do then? Leap down the Falls and land in the marshes?'
'No!' answered Aragorn… 'Do you not know, Boromir, or do you choose to forget the North Stair, and the high seat upon Amon Hen…? I at least have a mind to stand in that high place again…'
How is Aragorn reacting to the challenge? Is 'Do you not know, or do you choose to forget' a worthy response?
When did Aragorn stand in Amon Hen before?
In mentioning the high seat, is Aragorn hoping for some inspiration? Or is he asserting his kingship? Why doesn't he say he intends to sit there?
Doesn't the end of the chapter contradict Aragorn's suggestion that they could take to the water again below Rauros?
Boromir accepts Aragorn's authority, even if he has the final say. So in the morning, Aragorn and Legolas set out to look for the portage-way:
'Peril lies ahead on every southward road,' answered Aragorn. 'Wait for us one day. If we do not return in that time, you will know that evil has indeed befallen us. Then you must take a new leader and follow him as best you can.'
Who would be the alternative leader? Is there any reasonable alternative to Boromir? Does Aragorn implicitly trust him, or does he trust Frodo, or is he just negligent?
Well, luckily the two scouts find the path speedily. Perhaps Aragorn failed in capturing Gollum, but is still is very good at his business.
Aragorn's great moment comes soon:
'Behold the Argonath, the Pillars of the Kings!' cried Aragorn. 'We shall pass them soon. Keep the boats in line, and as far apart as you can! Hold the middle of the stream!'
As Frodo was borne towards them the great pillars rose like towers to meet him. Giants they seemed to him, vast grey figures silent but threatening… Awe and fear fell upon Frodo, and he cowered down, shutting his eyes and not daring to look up as the boat drew near. Even Boromir bowed his head as the boats whirled by, frail and fleeting as little leaves, under the enduring shadow of the sentinels of Númenor. So they passed into the dark chasm of the Gates.
...Frodo crouching over his knees heard Sam in front muttering and groaning: 'What a place! What a horrible place! Just let me get out of this boat, and I'll never wet my toes in a puddle again, let alone a river!'
'Fear not!' said a strange voice behind him. Frodo turned and saw Strider, and yet not Strider; for the weatherworn Ranger was no longer there. In the stern sat Aragorn son of Arathorn, proud and erect, guiding the boat with skilful strokes; his hood was cast back, and his dark hair was blowing in the wind, a light was in his eyes: a king returning from exile to his own land.
'Fear not!' he said. 'Long have I desired to look upon the likenesses of Isildur and Anárion, my sires of old. Under their shadow Elessar, the Elfstone son of Arathorn of the House of Valandil Isildur's son, heir of Elendil, has nought to dread!'
Then the light of his eyes faded, and he spoke to himself: 'Would that Gandalf were here! How my heart yearns for Minas Anor and the walls of my own city! But whither now shall I go?'
What do you make of the reactions of Frodo, Sam and Boromir to the Argonath?
Is this a simple description of Aragorn, or is this another occasion of Frodo's clairvoyance?
More riddle than question: how are both Isildur and Anárion Aragorn's sires? Is it significant that the Gates of Gondor are guarded by both – and what does it say about Aragorn's return?
Why does the light in Aragorn's eyes fade? Is this the end of a vision, or is it that once doubt gnaws at him again, he loses it?
Well, I'll try to be brief; I think the wish that Gandalf was with them is the key.
I have mentioned in the post about Boromir, the latter's concern that Aragorn was swerving away from his destiny, trying to become a Mithrandir-surrogate. This was asserted in the previous chapter:
His own plan, while Gandalf remained with them, had been to go with Boromir, and with his sword to help deliver Gondor. For he believed that the message of the dreams was a summons, and that the hour had come at last when the heir of Elendil should come forth and strive with Sauron for the mastery. But in Moria the burden of Gandalf had been laid on him; and he knew that he could not forsake the Ring, if Frodo refused in the end to go with Boromir.
He soon will, of course.
Do Aragorn and Boromir share the same vision, or interpretation of the dream?
Does this paragraph indicate that Aragorn, too, would have preferred Frodo to go to Minas Tirith – or does he realize that Frodo's path leads directly eastward?
In a way, passing the Argonath, and the prospect of returning to the High Seat on Amon Hen, bring Aragorn back to the thought of his destiny. He seems to have given up, but now he is torn again.
In the following two chapters, he will turn his back on his destiny twice: the first will probably be discussed by squire soon, and in The Passing of Boromir he will refuse both his destiny, and his new rôle as Frodo's guide!
I guess the point is that Aragorn is not ready to be King yet. At the moment, he is trying to shoulder two burdens which are too heavy for him – as King, and as a Gandalf-figure. He vacillates, and ends up not doing well on either. When he will reach Amon Hen, he will see nothing, while either Gandalf or a true King would.
His lack of resolution is expressed in his words at the conclusion of the Elvish Time debate:
Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.
There is no hope in an irresolute Aragorn, who tries to do what he cannot.
At the beginning of Book III, Aragorn supposedly reaches his low point. He feels that Frodo has left him, and shrugs off for the time the dream of appearing before Minas Tirith as a saviour. This might have been the rational option, and indeed was what Tolkien originally planned (The Treason of Isengard, p. 329):
Trotter is overwhelmed with grief, thinking that he has failed in his charge as Gandalf's successor. He imagines that the hobbits are all together; and waits in the camp until the morning.
In the morning no sign is found of them. The Company is now broken. Trotter sees nothing for it but to go south to Minas-Tirith with Boromir. But Legolas and Gimli have no further heart for the Quest, and feel that already too many leagues are between them and their homes. They go north again…
This plotline was written immediately after the Farewell to Lórien chapter! But it seems that like Aragorn's, Tolkien's heart spoke clearly at last: he is no King yet. He has to first be a faithful comrade, a champion, and ally in the service of the King of Rohan, and finally take the true road laid for the returning King of Gondor: the Paths of the Dead.
I hate to mention it, but could it be that Jackson did have a good intuition behind some of his questionable decisions?
That question was just a tease, of course; but I think the evaluation of Aragorn stands. And his rôle as the leader of the Quest is over; the last stage will be Frodo and Sam's alone.
The tenth day of their journey was over. Wilderland was behind them. They could go no further without choice between the east-way and the west. The last stage of the Quest was before them.
Thanks again to all who have participated, or just lurked!
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 15 2015, 4:02pm
Post #7 of 27
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Fine leadership indeed, we're here
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Thanks for the Leadership of this Chapter sador - obviously producing such a thorough and deeply-thought-out series of OPs is a considerable labour. Thank you for finding the time-somehow- to conclude it so well!
Back in a while with some actual replies to your new discussion points.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 15 2015, 5:55pm
Post #8 of 27
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Thoughts about Boromir's thoughts (and 'cockle-boats')
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I think you capture Boromir's mental dilemmas well. On this read-through I'm getting the sense that Boromir has served the Fellowship faithfully, and remarkably, and yet has always seemed the outsider. He's the only one from the South, and the only modern Man. To him, the others come from the peoples of old legends, in various ways. He's been Gandalf's favourite person to smack down, and in the Fellowship yearbook he's 'Most Likely To Object To The Author's Plan'. Perhaps he's deserved better. It's getting worse now - the others seem nervous of him: they're all, in any case, tetchy with the stress of the coming decision about their next destination. I think what he is asking for here is an expression of comradeship and gratitude to him personally - most openly in the line "There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help as not earned the reward of any companionship."
Maybe that explains why he is so keep to head west-ish into the Entwash delta. It might be difficult going, but it commits them all to marching towards Minas Tirith and (at least temporarily) away from Mordor.
Perhaps that explains his reluctance to go further down-river? In some ways, you might think he'd be all in favour. In better times, assuming they could get down the North Stair to bypass the Falls of Rauros, is there any reason they could not paddle much further down - even all the way to Minas Tirith? Obviously this is a time of war (or 'phoney war' if hostilities have not quite yet erupted - the Fellowship probably don't know) and there's certainly a risk of encountering enemies on the east bank. On the other hand, there's also the possibility of encountering Gondorian forces on the west bank, who will recognize Boromir and assist the mission (or assist Boromir to capture the Ring, if he already has that in mind). Is it actually surprising that it is Aragorn who wants to carry on down river and Boromir who wants to head West now? (Is there an embarrassingly easy answer that I am missing?)
I wonder another thing - when Boromir refuses to go with them after the Tindrock, does that effectively end any hope of boating further? My reasoning is that if they need Boromir to reach the Tindrock (as he says) - how would they get their boats down the North Stair without him so as to carry on downriver. We see how exhausting their portage is - my guess from the map is that the portage around Rauros would be far harder. Perhaps it is impossible unless Boromir can be persuaded to stay and help?
Cockle Boats
I can think of 3 explanations:
1) The boats look like boats that are used to collect cockles (but Googling those, I see boats that look like small fishing boats or trawlers, so maybe not).
2) The boats look like cockle-shells (i.e. coracle-like) - or they are being dismissively compared to coracles, even if they don't look much like them. This is what I choose to assume.
3) The resonance for readers is intended to be with 'cockleshell heroes' British Special Forces of World War II who used canoes to perform a raid on Nazi-occupied Bordeaux in December 1942 (‘Operation Frankton’).http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/...hell-heroes-of-1942/. Perhaps the suggestion is that the Fellowships' boats are like canoes?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 16 2015, 2:25am
Post #9 of 27
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then you have made such an end, as to be worthy of remembrance.
(or something like that... not even sure it's in the book)
Seriously though sador, I appreciate all the work you've put into this chapter; and I'm sure that even as discussion hasn't been forthcoming, you've made many of us think deeply about the chapter.
Just as the Fellowship drifted far down the Anduin, people have drifted in their Internet use. I learned today that a forum I've visited for years is closing because there's more action on their related Facebook page. I haven't used FB for years so I'm not sure about the quality of discussions there... I suspect they're only slightly fuller than tweeted discussions though.
Perhaps people are reading more and saying less because they're using phones rather than laptops or desktop computers to access their favourite sites? It's a serious pain to make proper replies using the touch pad on a smart phone (and voice to text is so wonky that it takes just as long to post by the time you're done editing). We've traded the ease of writing at a keyboard for the convenience of access anywhere...
Anyway, this isn't helping. But as I said, you've given us lots to think about here. Thank you.
By the way, I know the answer to your riddle: I wouldn't say it was easy, though nothing a little Googling couldn't mend.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jun 16 2015, 2:34am)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 16 2015, 3:00pm
Post #10 of 27
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I'd read that book.
Your analysis draws on material I'm not familiar with; all that stuff about Trotter, and Tolkien's moulding of the character Boromir, and his motivations. Thank you for sharing that.
Is it too simplistic to say that Galadriel showed Boromir his failure? Or perhaps an image of him shooting Rauros in his funeral bier? Perhaps this is why he seems in a hurry to quit the 'cockle-boats' and go home?
As for those boats, the term is descriptive, meaning a small boat. I can't help but wonder then, if a stout warrior would feel comfortable in a small boat? There's no room to swing a sword, nor to strut purposefully. I wonder too if the word 'cockle' is related to 'cuckold'? If so, perhaps the term is used derisively by Boromir.
There is something you left to your next post that belongs here as well:
Even Boromir bowed his head as the boats whirled by, frail and fleeting as little leaves, under the enduring shadow of the sentinels of Númenor. So they passed into the dark chasm of the Gates.
You asked about Boromir's and others' reactions to the Argonath. The first thing that comes to mind is reverence: whether to the Kings of Old (as trained in him by Denethor as you point out elsewhere); or by custom, i.e. when passing a gate or entering a building (survived among some military and gentlemen by removing their hats when entering a building). If it was a bow it could be either of those, or perhaps it was a sense of shame? We incline our heads and look down in reverence to someone or something greater than us, but also when feeling ashamed. Perhaps Boromir was aware that he was on the verge of failing his mission, whether to bring the King to Minas Tirith, or to honour his troth to Frodo and the Fellowship? Perhaps the noble images were like light exposing the growing darkness inside him?
All this without touching on the war being waged between duty and what's right (when duty and right are at odds) within the hearts of all noble knights...
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jun 16 2015, 3:04pm)
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 17 2015, 6:26pm
Post #11 of 27
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Over the night, the weather changes.
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
The air grew warm and very still under the great moist clouds that had floated up from the South and the distant seas. The rushing of the River over the rocks of the rapids seemed to grow louder and closer. The twigs of the trees above them began to drip.
When the day came the mood of the world about them had become soft and sad. Slowly the dawn grew to a pale light, diffused and shadowless. There was mist on the River, and white fog swathed the shore; the far bank could not be seen.
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Why would the sounds of the River seem to grow closer?
Low-level temperature inversion reflecting sound, which would also cause the mist.
Shouldn't the mist absorb the noise?
Mist, precipitation, rain, snow, and/or fog, has an insignificant effect on sound levels.
Or is this an effect of the fall of the Winged Messenger, and the silence on the Eastern bank?
Not unless the winged messenger has more than two legs:
'I am no weather-master,' he said; 'nor is aught that goes on two legs.'
-In the House of Tom Bombadil
Or of the gradual subsiding of their fear?
I’d think the reverse as adrenalin subsides.
In the morning, they wake to a strange shrouded world. How does this description compare to the morning after they were defeated by Caradhras? (quoted below)
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
As the light grew stronger it showed a strange shrouded world. Below their refuge were white humps and domes and shapeless deeps beneath which the path that they had trodden was altogether lost; but the heights above were hidden in great clouds still heavy with the threat of snow.
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- The Ring Goes South.
Sam says he normally can't abide fog, but in this case he hopes it would help escaping the Orcs; but Aragorn is concerned with finding the path.
Is Sam's dislike of fog connected with his work as a gardener?
To his work as an *ornamental* gardener.
Is fog so detrimental to his work?
Prolonged urban fog tends to cause injury to delicate flowers (causing blemishes, discoloration, shriveling, and premature withering) and flower buds (all previous plus sometimes killing them outright.) Crop plants tend to be immune.
Sam’s big secret discovered: he likes growing flowers better than taters.
Or is this just a case of a down-to-earth person, who dislikes being unable to see a clear path before his feet?
Probably that too.
In which case, why isn't Boromir oppressed?
As a military man he knows mists give cover from unfriendly eyes. Of course it’s also good for people lying in ambush or trying to sneak up on you.
Or is Sam's feeling a result of the adventure in the Barrow-downs?
That too, too.
In that case, I would think his being able to rise above the trauma and see the fog for a blessing is remarkable.
That’s our Sam!
It appears that Aragorn's plan is still to follow the River. While Celeborn only advised the Fellowship to follow the River until Tol Brandir (which means using the portage-route around Sarn Gebir), Aragorn means to take the boats 'by the ancient way to Rauros-foot, and there take to the water again'. Boromir objects.
It seems that so far the river journey hasn't helped Aragorn make up his mind, does it?
I’m sure he’s doing a lot of thinking. And more thinking. And even more thinking.
How far would he follow the Anduin?
Until he listened to his heart.
In The Siege of Gondor, Denethor will say that the river is unpassable above Cair Andros,…
And you trust Denethor?
…and they have been caught once already; what was he thinking?
Thoughts. Many thoughts.
“He would think of things he never thunk before
And then he'd sit and think some more.”
-With apologies to E. Y. Harberg
Why did Celeborn not mention the ancient road?
There’s really too many ancient roads to keep track off even for an immortal Elf: The one to Bree, the one in Hollin, the one through Mirkwood, etc. I’m tempted to suspect the annual highway budget alone bankrupted Numenor. Basically Numenor was already “under water” financially even before they went to the Valar asking for a loan.
Does he know that it no longer exists?
Celeborn knows everything except what he doesn’t.
I will look at the debate between Aragorn and Boromir later, but here I want to note Aragorn's argument against crossing the Entwash.
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
The vale of Entwash is flat and fenny, and fog is a deadly peril there for those on foot and laden.
________________________________________
We meet the Entwash in book III, much further up its course. However, looking at the map we notice that its inflow into the Anduin results in a truly tremendous delta of (probably treacherous) fens. According to the online resources (based on a comment in Unfinished Tales), the massive amount of water flooded the Eastern bank, creating the marshes of the Nindalf (Wetwang).
Does any similar inland delta exist?
The Sudd in the Upper Nile comes to mind. Indeed, it continually frustrated explorers’ attempts to sail, paddle, march, walk, swim, and/or crawl upstream to find the source of the Nile. Eventually explorers just bypassed it.
From a casual research, neither the inflow of the Missouri into the Missisipi or the Irtysh into the Ob seem to come nearly close. Do you wish someone of the Fellowship came to that region, so that we could read more about it?
I’d rather read Alatar and Pallando’s Excellent Adventure.
.
Shouldn't this area be even more dangerous and treacherous?
Yes. But in the end, no matter how dangerous and treacherous, difficult terrain is safer to deal with than enemy action.
How could Aragorn consider it the safer route?
Kingship went to his head:
Listen to the thunder, hear the winds roar,
Hurricane's a comin', board up the door.
Load up the cannon, call out the law,
Worstest calamity that folks ever saw!
Girls run and hide, brave men shiver,
I'm Mike Fink Aragorn, King of the River!
-Davy Crockett and the River Pirates (1956)
And again, coming from a discussion leader who has little visual imagination:
Do you have any images of artwork depicting this inflow, or or any real landscapes somehow resembling it?
http://www.amusingplanet.com/...land-of-sudd-in.html
And the end, Boromir agrees to go with the Fellowship until the Tindrock.
So Aragorn and Legolas seek the ancient portage-way, instructing the others to wait for one day.
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
It was with a heavy heart that Frodo saw Aragorn and Legolas climb the steep bank and vanish into the mists; but his fears proved groundless. Only two or three hours had passed, and it was barely mid-day, when the shadowy shapes of the explorers appeared again.
________________________________________
What did Frodo fear?
Boromir. Kinda surprized Frodo didn’t have confidence in The Dwarf.
Is Tolkien warning us against putting too much trust in our intuition?
Just because the lion doesn’t eat you today doesn’t mean it won’t eat you tomorrow.
Same goes for ring-grabbers.
(Of course ring-grabbers won’t eat you, only grab the ring, unless they’re Gollum, in which case they do both.)
I guess most readers remember the portage-way from the bantering exchange between Boromir and Gimli about carrying the boats down it.
I will turn to it in the appended post; here I wish to concentrate on the description of the way (and as usual, ask for any relevant images).
https://en.wikipedia.org/...d_Portage_State_Park
In the afternoon of the next day, the Company reach what might be the most spectacular touring site in Middle-earth.
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
"'Behold the Argonath, the Pillars of the Kings!' cried Aragorn. 'We shall pass them soon. Keep the boats in line, and as far apart as you can! Hold the middle of the stream!'
As Frodo was borne towards them the great pillars rose like towers to meet him. Giants they seemed to him, vast grey figures silent but threatening. Then he saw that they were indeed shaped and fashioned: the craft and power of old had wrought upon them, and still they preserved through the suns and rains of forgotten years the mighty likenesses in which they had been hewn. Upon great pedestals founded in the deep waters stood two great kings of stone: still with blurred eyes and crannied brows they frowned upon the North. The left hand of each was raised palm outwards in gesture of warning; in each right hand there was an axe; upon each head there was a crumbling helm and crown. Great power and majesty they still wore, the silent wardens of a long-vanished kingdom. Awe and fear fell upon Frodo, and he cowered down, shutting his eyes and not daring to look up as the boat drew near. Even Boromir bowed his head as the boats whirled by, frail and fleeting as little leaves, under the enduring shadow of the sentinels of Númenor. So they passed into the dark chasm of the Gates.
________________________________________
I just had to copy this; I hope you will forgive me the length, and that it involves to breach of copyright.
Hah! Now they’ll have to take us both!!
Why are the eyes blurred?
Time and weather can “blur” facial relief. Also chemicals in paint. (Did you know all those marble Greco-Roman statues were originally painted? Usually garishly. Strangely not as impressive as stark white.) Not to mention chemicals in facial make-up. (Yes, the ancients did that too.) BTW, they also dressed the naked statues in fine clothes so they weren’t quite as perverted as artists of the Renaissance supposed, but that medieval supposition gave us some really great naked people art!!))
And were the brows originally crannied –…
Flower in the crannied wall,
I pluck you out of the crannies,
I hold you here, root and all, in my hand,
Little flower—but if I could understand
What you are, root and all, all in all,
I should know what God and man is.
-Alfred Lord Tennyson
… or are both of these the sign of the wearing down of 'the suns and rains of forgotten years'?
Yes.
Is Gondor a 'long-vanished kingdom'?
No, but “The Realms the Dunedain in Exile” is.
Frodo and Sam's reactions (I haven't copied Sam's, because I had to stop somewhere) seem natural. But why the emphasis on Boromir's bowing his head?
I assume it’s part of the reverence for Numenor:
Before they ate, Faramir and all his men turned and faced west in a moment of silence. Faramir signed to Frodo and Sam that they should do likewise.
"So we always do." he said, as they sat down: "we look towards Númenor that was, and beyond to Elvenhome that is, and to that which is beyond Elvenhome and will ever be. Have you no such custom at meat? '
"No," said Frodo, feeling strangely rustic and untutored. "But if we are guests, we bow to our host, and after we have eaten we rise and thank him."
"That we do also," said Faramir.
-Window on the West
Is he supposed to be the bravest, or the most irreverent – even towards the 'sentinels of Númenor'?
It seems rather verging on idolatry, along with the reverence for the Two Trees, Nimloth, and The White Tree of Gondor. I wonder if these were also things Tolkien might have changed in LOTR in his later life.
I am sure there are, however, several such mythical islands. What do they signify?
Usually Eden.
Did you expect that Frodo would mysteriously somehow end upon it?
I was thinking that’s where the Eagles were.
What does it mean 'Wilderland was behind them'? Is Wilderland was a specific region?
The old Kingdom of Rhovanion.
Except for the ancient border of Gondor, what happens below Rauros?
Possibly the westernmost reaches of the Dead Marshes, which would be bad.
I assume the land does change, for better or worse – as Tolkien says the Fellowship 'could go no further without choice between the east-way and the west'. In which case, does this indicate Aragorn's plan mentioned above was impossible?
Not if he had a bulldozer.
And did this journey indeed help them towards their choice – or did it just postpone it?
Yes.
******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 17 2015, 8:22pm
Post #12 of 27
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We talked about it way back in January while taking A Shortcut to Mushrooms. In both that chapter and this one the Fellowship take shortcuts of a sort; and action takes a backseat to descriptions of the land/ natural world.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 22 2015, 8:51am
Post #13 of 27
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And sorry I'm late in responding; I had to catch up on some things in RL... And now I'm moping about at home, being on sick leave. Hope this doesn't come out to disjointed. Maybe Aragorn differs from Boromir because he thinks that keeping to the portage path is a more sensible option than going cross-country? The portage way once found, might be easier to follow, and should they get lost, they won't be too far from the river, so ought to be able to re-orient themselves. Possibly. However, if they strike the Entwash before the delta, it should also be a sure path, shouldn't it? And you get messed up with the delta once you follow the Anduin below Rauros.
Karen Wynn Fonstead's 'The Atlas of Middle Earth' has a section on the Emyn Muil, trying to reverse-engineer the geology from Tolkien's description of his fictive landscape... Thank you especially for this section! I haven't got either Fonstad's or Strachey's books, and my knowledge of geology is pretty superficial. So I am truly grateful.
I can't imagine what Aragorn was planning to do. But I think he distrusts whatever Boromir is planning to do... I wonder. In this case, would it make sense for him to leave with Legolas, and leave the others to choose a leader if anything happens? What does he expect?
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 22 2015, 9:25am
Post #14 of 27
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Or is this an effect of the fall of the Winged Messenger, and the silence on the Eastern bank?
Not unless the winged messenger has more than two legs:
Nice, but that's not what I've meant. I thought that perhaps the silence from the Eastren bank, following the fall of the Winged Messenger, would have leftjust the rapids as the only sound in the vicinity.
Prolonged urban fog tends to cause injury to delicate flowers (causing blemishes, discoloration, shriveling, and premature withering) and flower buds (all previous plus sometimes killing them outright.) Crop plants tend to be immune.
But how urban is the Shire?
In The Siege of Gondor, Denethor will say that the river is unpassable above Cair Andros,…
And you trust Denethor?
Most definitely yes. Is there any reason to doubt his words?
The Sudd in the Upper Nile comes to mind. Indeed, it continually frustrated explorers’ attempts to sail, paddle, march, walk, swim, and/or crawl upstream to find the source of the Nile. Eventually explorers just bypassed it.
I didn't know that. Thank you!
But why the emphasis on Boromir's bowing his head?
I assume it’s part of the reverence for Numenor:
I like your take better than that of others' who thought Boromir was unimpressed.
Is Wilderland was a specific region?
The old Kingdom of Rhovanion.
Oh, thats' a good answer! It never occured to me.
Thank you for all your brilliant responses! I was hoping you'll find the time for the other two posts, but with the effort you put in these, I'll understand if you can't.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 22 2015, 9:48am
Post #15 of 27
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Perhaps he's deserved better. It's getting worse now - the others seem nervous of him: they're all, in any case, tetchy with the stress of the coming decision about their next destination. I think what he is asking for here is an expression of comradeship and gratitude to him personally - most openly in the line "There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help as not earned the reward of any companionship."
That is entirely possible. Although I don't think he wants just Merry and Pippin - he has come that far in order to bring Isildur's heir back to Gondor.
But yes, he clearly feels everybody is edging away from him - which, no doubt, contributes to ultimately driving him off the edge.
I wonder another thing - when Boromir refuses to go with them after the Tindrock, does that effectively end any hope of boating further?
This is my feeling as well. But perhaps he is bluffing, to force Aragorn's hand to a decision - whatever it might be?
Cockle Boats
I can think of 3 explanations
I like all three. Thank you!
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 22 2015, 10:18am
Post #16 of 27
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We incline our heads and look down in reverence to someone or something greater than us, but also when feeling ashamed. Perhaps Boromir was aware that he was on the verge of failing his mission, whether to bring the King to Minas Tirith, or to honour his troth to Frodo and the Fellowship? Perhaps the noble images were like light exposing the growing darkness inside him?
I like that!
But regarding your question:
Is it too simplistic to say that Galadriel showed Boromir his failure? Or perhaps an image of him shooting Rauros in his funeral bier? Perhaps this is why he seems in a hurry to quit the 'cockle-boats' and go home?
I think that Boromir himself indicated otherwise:
'To me it seemed exceedingly strange,' said Boromir. 'Maybe it was only a test, and she thought to read out thoughts for her own good purpose; but almost I should have said that she was tempting us, and offering what she pretended to have the power to give. It need not be said that I refused to listen. The Men of Minas Tirith are true to their word.' But what he thought that the Lady had offered him Boromir did not tell.
So I think that he felt she was offering some sort of allaince, or at least prompting him to think what a noble course it might be to sieze the ring and deliver Middle-earth. He refused to listen - but he heard, oh yes precious, he heard.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 22 2015, 11:54am
Post #17 of 27
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"Dirty old river, must you keep rolling, flowing into the night"
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Perhaps people are reading more and saying less because they're using phones rather than laptops or desktop computers to access their favourite sites? It's a serious pain to make proper replies using the touch pad on a smart phone (and voice to text is so wonky that it takes just as long to post by the time you're done editing). We've traded the ease of writing at a keyboard for the convenience of access anywhere...
This is, at least in part, true. As I know for myself - why didn't I answer this post a week ago, when I first saw it? I wanted to, but only had a phone, so I preferred to wait until I had more time to answer properly. And here I am, a week later.
My feeling that perhaps I should stop is not based on the relative dearth of reponses - it appears we are in a discussion slump, and i am not the only one affected; it was just that with more demands on my time than before, it is not easy to find when to compose these posts, and to summon the required energy once I do find the time.
Since I've led my first discussion, some seven years ago, our family has grown, as did the kids (Elboron is fourteen already); we have bought our own flat, which is far better than the old wreck we used to rent before - but it is smaller, so between a larger family and less room, it is less easy to find a room in which to work. And to that my family and in-laws growing older too - over the last year we've had one cancer and two heart surgeries in the near family; all have gone well, but there are other things over the horizon - and that my workload has increased significantly as our company grow (I am also paid better, so I don't complain).
I have also increased my Tolkien-related library, and find it nigh-impossible to trim down the discussions I lead to just a few points. I have several times ended a long post with the promise that the next post will be shorter - until I have found it laughable myself.
So I don't know whether I'll lead any more chapter discussions; this last attempt was an unpleasant experience - which was modified by your and others' excellent responses!
On the other hand, this is not the first time I've made this kind of decision...
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 23 2015, 11:43am
Post #18 of 27
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A note about cockles and cuckolds...
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Cockles are a variety of small clams. A cockle-boat is a type of small, light fishing boat. According to dictionary.com, the name is actually derived from the Middle English "cockboat" or "cog boat" which itself may possibly have been derived from the Latin for a dugout canoe. It seems to be a case of "cockboat" turning into cockle-boat on the strength of similar sounds and association of ideas; a cockboat might toss about on rough waters like a cockle shell.
The word "cuckold", on the other hand, is derived from the cuckoo, a bird which legendarily lays its eggs in another's nest to usurp the place of the legitimate nestlings. (Some varieties do, some don't.)
In this case, the derogatory connotation to the term cockle-boat would simply be that they are small, light, and cramped, and feel flimsy and unstable to him by comparison to other watercraft.
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
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Meneldor
Valinor
Jun 23 2015, 4:34pm
Post #19 of 27
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Crying cockles and mussels, a-live, a-live-o //
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They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 23 2015, 6:54pm
Post #20 of 27
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"Rivals, in war, create a glorious strife"
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As promised, I will devote a separate post to Aragorn. But doesn't it seem that he is losing his temper with annoyance?
Aragorn can get rather prickly if annoyed:
“Then who would you take up with?' asked Strider. 'A fat innkeeper who only remembers his own name because people shout it at him all day?”
-Strider
'You have looked in that accursed stone of wizardry!' exclaimed Gimli with fear and astonishment in his face. 'Did you say aught to – him? Even Gandalf feared that encounter.'
'You forget to whom you speak,' said Aragorn sternly, and his eyes glinted.
-The Passing of the Grey Company
“If your pack has not been found, then you must send for the herb-master of this House. And he will tell you that he did not know that the herb you desire had any virtues, but that it is called westmansweed by the vulgar, and galenas by the noble, and other names in other tongues more learned, and after adding a few half-forgotten rhymes that he does not understand, he will regretfully inform you that there is none in the House, and he will leave you to reflect on the history of tongues.”
-The Houses of Healing
As have been said before, Aragorn's idea to take to the water is not quite his best, and it was Celeborn himself who recommended turning towards the Entwash.
Why doesn't Boromir cite Celeborn's authority to answer Aragorn's objection?
Taking the advice of an Elf Lord is what got them in this mess in the first place.
Or make no answer to it at all, apart from one-upping him on his plan?
This is not about logic or reason.
Does this have anything to do with his apparent contempt for the 'cockle-boats'?
That too.
What is a 'cockle-boat'? (yes, I know it appears in Bombadil Goes Boating; but I still do not know what it is, why would Tom use it, and if Boromir's use of the term is descriptive or prejorative).
Just before dropping the subject, I must mention that before, Boromir said:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
But no boat can live in Sarn Gebir, be it night or day.
________________________________________
While Aragorn phrased the same concern in a different way:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
'Boats of the Elves would not sink, maybe,' he said, 'but that does not say that we should come through Sarn Gebir alive. None have ever done so yet.'
________________________________________
See the difference?
The same objection the American astronauts had about being launched into space: They didn’t mind getting shot up there, but they were pretty darn adamant about getting back down in one piece.
Is Boromir naturally suspicious of the elven-boats?
… they are wayward if mishandled.
What does that even mean? You have to pet them and say nice things to them? You have to dry them off with soft flannel every night and sing them to sleep? When you handle them you must use the expression “If you please” for the particularly gentlemanly tone it implants?
Considering that his funeral boat passed Rauros, was he found ultimately wrong?
I’m sure the cockleboat was gleefully taunting him every bit of the way.
Or are the Rapids (or the land of Gondor beyond them) a completely different thing?
I wonder if Boromir made it past Pelargir without being stripped naked? I wouldn’t put it past the corsairs painting a funny face on his tummy or writing “Oh, dear/ the long career/ of Boromir/ doth end I fear” on his forehead.
Be that as may, Boromir relents:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
'It is not the way of the Men of Minas Tirith to desert their friends at need,' he said, 'and you will need my strength, if ever you are to reach the Tindrock. To the tall isle I will go, but no further. There I shall turn to my home, alone if my help as not earned the reward of any companionship.'
________________________________________
Why does he agree to stay with them until the Tindrock?
Going there anyway. Might as well take credit for altruism.
Does he still accept Aragorn's authority?
He’s a good enough soldier to know someone has to be the leader, and obviously Aragorn has the support of most of the Fellowship. For now.
Or does he hope the Ranger will finally see the correct sign?
He’s the Elvish Pupil who led them into Lothlorien in the first place.
Won't they need his strength to carry the boats in the ancient road to Rauros foot?
It’s all downhill.
Why should he deserve companionship as a reward?
From Jason to Beowulf that’s how ancient leaders got followers.
So Boromir does not object to Aragorn's setting out with Legolas to search for the path, but offers a parting shot:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
'No road was made by the Men of Gondor in this region [said Aragorn], for even in their great days their realm did not reach up Anduin beyond the Emyn Muil; but there is a portage-way somewhere on the western shore, if I can find it. It cannot yet have perished; for light boats used to journey out of Wilderland down to Osgiliath, and still did so until a few years ago, when the Orcs of Mordor began to multiply.'
'Seldom in my life has any boat come out of the North, and the Orcs prowl on the east-shore,' said Boromir. 'If you go forward, peril will grow with every mile, even if you find a path.'
________________________________________
Is he contradicting Aragorn?
No, just asking what’s the point?
After Aragorn, there is also an argument with Gimli! But to be sure, it was the dwarf who struck first:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
'All is well,' said Aragorn, as he clambered down the bank.
...I fear we must leave the River now, and make for the portage-way as best we can from here.'
'That would not be easy, even if we were all Men,' said Boromir.
'Yet such as we are we will try it,' said Aragorn.
'Aye, we will,' said Gimli. 'The legs of Men will lag on a rough road, while a Dwarf goes on, be the burden twice his own weight, Master Boromir!'
________________________________________
What stung him?
The implication that a Third Man would more helpful instead of The Dwarf.
Was it resentment over the assumption that Men were stronger?
That too.
Wasn't this assumption more or less proven right up Caradhras?
Nope. Men were just too dang tall. The Men had to force a path for the passage of themselves, the wizard, and The Elf. If it was just Gimli and the hobbits they could have saved a lot of effort and just tunneled through to freedom.
Or was it sheer annoyance with the malcontent who is always grumbling against the leadership?
That too, too.
In which case, was the sentiment shared by others?
The others belong to the Aragorn Fan Club.
Or was it, perhaps, a latent resentment against Boromir's words of suspicion towards Lady Galadriel?
That too, too, too. (Do you hear a train a’comin’?)
And if you talk so big, Master Dwarf, why do you let the two Men carry the boats one by one, and do not take at least one, let's say with your pal the Elf?
Someone has to be the guard and protect them.
To his credit, Boromir does not answer this taunt.
He’s made speechless by the incomparable wit of The Dwarf.
At least not now; but once the boats and luggage are all safe at the foot of the Rapids:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
'Well, here we are, and here we must pass another night,' said Boromir. 'We need sleep, and even if Aragorn had a mind to pass the Gates of Argonath by night, we are all too tired—except, no doubt, our sturdy dwarf.'
Gimli made no reply: he was nodding as he sat.
________________________________________
Is this remark good-natured, or spiteful?
Notice he didn’t dare say it until The Dwarf was asleep. At least Boromir isn’t suicidal.
What should we make of Boromir?
A hat, a broach, a pterodactyl?
What made him such a contrarian?
Either principled skepticism or self-interested denialism.
That is, it depends on the observer.
As we know, Boromir set out to Rivendell acting on a dream that he had.
Actually the dream he *said* he had after he heard about Faramir’s dream.
In the dream, Boromir was enjoined to seek for the sword that was broken – and he had found it indeed; he was apparently satisfied with the solution that the sword came with its owner, and he saw himself as finally fulfilling the historical destiny of the House of Stewards, and bringing the King back to Gondor.
Or, if every else got killed, bringing The Sword That Was Broken Now Remade as well as Isildur’s Bane back to Minas Tirith so who's Isildur’s Heir now, eh? Boromir then reluctantly heeds the Will of the Valar.
From Faramir, we know that as a youth he wondered why his father was not a king; and was answered that Gondor was a place of true majesty, in which the true line of kings could never be supplanted.
Well, except by divine decree.
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
'Alas! poor Boromir. Does that not tell you something of him?'
'It does,' said Frodo. 'Yet he always treated Aragorn with honour.'
'I doubt it not,' said Faramir. 'If he were satisfied of Aragorn's claim, as you say, he would greatly reverence him. But the pinch had not yet come. They had not yet reached Minas Tirith or become rivals in her wars.'
________________________________________
If he indeed was satisfied of Aragorn's claim, he would willingly follow him;
But what if Denethor wasn’t? Would Boromir go against his father, the current legitimate ruler of Gondor who already has the precedent of the Council of Gondor against Arvedui's claim, and thus Aragorn’s claim?
…more than that – he had found the true destiny of his family, and he was to fulfill the duty of bringing it to fruition.
Of course if Aragorn woke up dead during the trip back….
There is the twist, though, at the end of Faramir's words. What does 'rivals in her wars' mean?
Rivals, in war, create a glorious strife:
But hate ensues, when rivals for a wife.
-Faire Em, the Miller's Daughter of Manchester,( probably not) by William Shakespeare (c.1590)
BTW, “rivals” is a philological pun, from the Latin “rivalis”: “one who uses the same stream”, as indeed they’re both doing.
Surely, that either would try to outdo the other in feats of honour.
Or dispute strategies and tactics.
Now Faramir might have his own agenda here, and is reaching out to Frodo (and Sam), building up trust while lulling their suspicions, angling to learn their true purposes which they keep secret; but as he says, he would not trap an orc with falsehood!
Yes, but:
"We have not found what we sought," said one. "But what have we found? '
"Not Orcs," said another…
-Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
As Faramir suspected, another critical factor in the Fall of Boromir is his sojourn in Lórien. What happened there? He did indeed question Frodo in length about what he did the Lady offer him, and then warned him darkly against her.
What woke in his heart, when she questioned him? What did she offer, as if it was in her power?
From what Faramir said of his exchange with Denethor about Stewards I’d say it was the Kingship of Gondor.
She surely did not offer him the idea of taking the Ring from Frodo by force. Did she offer him her connivance?
Like he’d trust her.
Did she suggest using the Ring – either herself, or Aragorn, with himself as the Captain of the West?
While he might be tragically deluded into taking the Ring for himself, he’d be horrified at breaking the Fellowship in order to give it to Galadriel or Aragorn to use.
In that case, he surely would want to know what Frodo was offered. Was he pressured, or tempted, to yield the Ring voluntarily (as we know, bit Boromir doesn't, he eventually did)?
I have suggested in previous threads that perhaps Galadriel did in a way scheme for the Ring; whether she did or did not, Boromir must have felt the possibility. And please note that even if she just offered it to him as a temptation, this is the first time he knows somebody from the Wise considering this option in a serious manner, and not instinctively recoiling like Elrond and Gandalf did!
I’d think he’d be suspicious of the validity of anything he thought he gleaned about Galadriel. Elves are just too treacherous and manipulative. If he thought she wanted the Ring, then probably she didn’t, but then maybe that’s exactly what she wanted him to think, so maybe she did, but then again, maybe she actually didn’t, but then….
Time passes in Lórien. We do not know how Boromir experienced it – if this has been an illusion, which mortals could experience either way, it is very possible that while Frodo and Sam experienced it as moving swiftly (while the epiphany on Cerin Amroth sunk in) while Boromir felt it moving slower, and slower. Could he not have been chafing at the bit?
Then again She-Elves do seem to have a thing for Men with beards. Boromir’s true pique might have been at having to leave.
The draft speaks of destroying Sauron; and even if the evil Boromir is thinking of joining forces with Saruman, it makes sense. But the final, reworked version, he speaks only of destroying the armed might of Sauron –
This is the strategy of the battle of annihilation, which the Germans used successfully against the Russians in WWI, but when they tried the same strategy in the West against the British and French the result was years of futile bloodbath. The reality would be a long war of attrition, in which the assumed fast-breeding orcs would have the advantage.
… he seems to subconsciously realize that using the Ring is just playing to win the war-game, not to save the world.
… the political view is the object, War is the means, and the means must always include the object in our conception.
-Carl von Clausewitz, On War
Elrond's words of the Ring taking over the victorious general have sunk, and he does not even consider the idea that after defeating Sauron, they could redeem Isildur's failure, and cast the Ring into the Fire then.
But there’s the Enemy in the South, and then the Shadow in the East, and as for the West, what about revenge for the sinking of Numenor? There just ain't no end to doin’ good!
Then they leave. Galadriel gives him a golden belt – meaning that he is still connected to her. How?
The Faithful of Numenor, aka Elf-Friends.
He does not know. Is he still supposed to sieze the Ring and join forces with her? Or is Aragorn? But he will never turn upon a friend, never harm Frodo. And Frodo does not seem to realize that the path by which Gandalf has led him has turned wrong, on every single instance! Gandalf himself had paid the price, but still Aragorn steers according to the course the wizard has charted. So Boromir watches, but with dwindling hope that plain good sense would ever prevail.
Indeed:
`It is by our own folly that the Enemy will defeat us,' cried Boromir.
But:
”It is wisdom to recognize necessity, when all other courses have been weighed, though as folly it may appear to those who cling to false hope. Well, let folly be our cloak, a veil before the eyes of the Enemy!”
-The Council of Elrond
Boromir knew the plan when he set out.
******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 24 2015, 2:20am
Post #21 of 27
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I knew the small boat connotation. Yet one wonders if the mighty Boromir didn't feel as a cuckold at this point in our tale? But that can't be right, as he was known to be more martially than maritally minded.
(Incidentally, I've never liked the term cuckold as it often is used, to imply that the man in question agreed to the arrangement.)
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jun 24 2015, 2:28am)
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 24 2015, 2:27am
Post #22 of 27
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Tapping away on a phone right now, hence
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this short reply: we love you sador. And in particular, I am glad you rose, and keep rising, to the occaission.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 24 2015, 2:41am
Post #23 of 27
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Let Boromir bleed / 'tis but a scar to be scorned
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I remember myself as a precocious 12-years-old boy, finding a complete edition of the works of Shakespeare on my grandmother's bookshelf, and thinking I could tackle Troilus and Cressida, as I knew the basic story.
The next line in the couplet runs:
Paris been gored by Menelaus' horn
I was greatly mystified. 
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 24 2015, 4:03am
Post #24 of 27
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The symbolism of Boromir's cleft horn revealed... And we didn't have to wait til September.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 24 2015, 5:38pm
Post #25 of 27
(4807 views)
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"A little Madness in the Spring"
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This nearly became the only chapter discussion I've led which did not include any riddle.
So here is an easy one: where does the thread title come from?
http://newboards.theonering.net/..._leadership!_P481646
This is the final discussion opener in this chapter. I have found it really heavy going – it is far more difficult for me to find the time to write and post that it was a few years ago. I am tempted to say this will be the last RR discussion I will lead – but I've made those promises/threats/decisions before, so who knows?
So far I’ve kept to my promise. Maybe we can form a Reading Room Discussion Leaders Anonymous support group. Our Motto: One Discussion At A Time.
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
'I do not see why we should pass the rapids or follow the River any further,' said Boromir.' If the Emyn Muil lie before us, then we can abandon these cockle-boats andstrike westwards and southwards, until we come to the Entwash and cross into my land'.
'We can, if we are making to Minas Tirith,' said Aragorn. 'But that is not yet agreed…
The vale of Entwash is flat and fenny, and fog is a deadly peril there for those on foot and laden'…
'And even if you pass the Gates of Argonath and come unmolested to the Tindrock, what will you do then? Leap down the Falls and land in the marshes?'
'No!' answered Aragorn… 'Do you not know, Boromir, or do you choose to forget the North Stair, and the high seat upon Amon Hen…? I at least have a mind to stand in that high place again…'
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How is Aragorn reacting to the challenge?
Not well.
Is 'Do you not know, or do you choose to forget' a worthy response?
There is no “I” in “Team” or “Company”, though curiously there is one both in “Fellowship” and “Nine Walkers”.
When did Aragorn stand in Amon Hen before?
Probably when he was looking for Gollum.
In mentioning the high seat, is Aragorn hoping for some inspiration?
Recon of the marshes.
Or is he asserting his kingship?
King George VI: [Logue is sitting on the coronation throne] Get up! Y-you can't sit there! GET UP!\
Lionel Logue: Why not? It's a chair.
King George VI: T-that... that is not "a chair", that is Saint Edward's chair.
Lionel Logue: People have carved their names on it.
King George: Y-y-you...
Lionel Logue: It's held in place by a large rock.
King George: Th-that is the S-stone of Scone you are t-trivializing...
Lionel Logue: I don't care how many royal arseholes have sat in this chair.
King George VI: L-listen to me... listen to me!
Lionel Logue: Listen to you? By what right?
King George VI: By divine right, if you must. I am your king!
-The King’s Speech (2010)
Why doesn't he say he intends to sit there?
It’s pretty much assumed. I mean, what else are you going to do with a chair?
Doesn't the end of the chapter contradict Aragorn's suggestion that they could take to the water again below Rauros?
Well, Aragorn pretty much proves to Boromir that they can, albeit posthumously.
Boromir accepts Aragorn's authority, even if he has the final say. So in the morning, Aragorn and Legolas set out to look for the portage-way:
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'Peril lies ahead on every southward road,' answered Aragorn. 'Wait for us one day. If we do not return in that time, you will know that evil has indeed befallen us. Then you must take a new leader and follow him as best you can.'
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Who would be the alternative leader?
The Dwarf.
Is there any reasonable alternative to Boromir?]
Merry has led the Company before. Frodo is the strategic leader, looked to in determining the overall direction of the Fellowship.
Does Aragorn implicitly trust him, or does he trust Frodo, or is he just negligent?
I’m thinking he let Legolas go on and verify the trail while he crouched in the mist to see if he could catch Boromir grabbing for the Ring.
What do you make of the reactions of Frodo, Sam and Boromir to the Argonath?
Frodo seems to experience “batophobia”, a fear of looking up at tall buildings or structures, totally understandable for a creature used to living underground.
Sam seems to be reacting to the sensory overload of sight, sound, and motion “as the boats whirled by. frail and fleeting as little leaves”.
Boromir seems humbled and reverent.
Is this a simple description of Aragorn, or is this another occasion of Frodo's clairvoyance?
If it’s clairvoyance it’s catching:
Gimli and Legolas looked at their companion in amazement, for they had not seen him in this mood before. He seemed to have grown in stature while Éomer had shrunk; and in his living face they caught a brief vision of the power and majesty of the kings of stone. For a moment it seemed to the eyes of Legolas that a white flame flickered on the brows of Aragorn like a shining crown.
Éomer stepped back and a look of awe was in his face. He cast down his proud eyes.
-The Riders of Rohan
More riddle than question: how are both Isildur and Anárion Aragorn's sires?
He claims both Arnor and Gondor.
Is it significant that the Gates of Gondor are guarded by both –…
"Doors open both ways."
-Hawkeye, The Avengers (2012)
They are also the Gates of Arnor.
… and what does it say about Aragorn's return?
He’s twice the Man Isildur or Anárion was?
Why does the light in Aragorn's eyes fade?
So they passed into the dark chasm of the Gates.
Is this the end of a vision,…
That too.
…or is it that once doubt gnaws at him again, he loses it?
That too, too. (There’s that train again!)
Do Aragorn and Boromir share the same vision, or interpretation of the dream?
Aragorn seems to mean to unify the two kingdoms, whereas I think Boromir leans to joint rule by the King of Arnor (Aragorn) and the King of Gondor (Guess who?) Of course with the ruined state of the North, Gondor (and Boromir) would be the senior partner.
Does this paragraph indicate that Aragorn, too, would have preferred Frodo to go to Minas Tirith…
I think like with Lorien, he viewed Minas Tirith as a place of rest, recovery, and counsel.
… – or does he realize that Frodo's path leads directly eastward?
He suspects it.
In a way, passing the Argonath, and the prospect of returning to the High Seat on Amon Hen, bring Aragorn back to the thought of his destiny.
The Argonath is also a reminder that a king is a guardian of his people.
He seems to have given up, but now he is torn again.
In the following two chapters, he will turn his back on his destiny twice: the first will probably be discussed by squire soon, and in The Passing of Boromir he will refuse both his destiny, and his new rôle as Frodo's guide!
I guess the point is that Aragorn is not ready to be King yet.
One really doesn’t just decide to be King. One simply Is. It’s kinda like puberty: You wake up one morning and you’ve have changed, like a caterpillar into a butterfly.
At the moment, he is trying to shoulder two burdens which are too heavy for him – as King, and as a Gandalf-figure.
A King is a Guardian, an Istari is a Steward. This means something.
He vacillates, and ends up not doing well on either. When he will reach Amon Hen, he will see nothing, while either Gandalf or a true King would.
Gandalf’s heart lies with Valinor, but the Land and the True King are One.
His lack of resolution is expressed in his words at the conclusion of the Elvish Time debate:
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Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.
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There is no hope in an irresolute Aragorn, who tries to do what he cannot.
A little Madness in the Spring
Is wholesome even for the King
-Emily Dickenson
This plotline was written immediately after the Farewell to Lórien chapter! But it seems that like Aragorn's, Tolkien's heart spoke clearly at last: he is no King yet. He has to first be a faithful comrade, a champion, and ally in the service of the King of Rohan, and finally take the true road laid for the returning King of Gondor: the Paths of the Dead.
I hate to mention it, but could it be that Jackson did have a good intuition behind some of his questionable decisions?
Aragorn has been a Wizard’s pupil, now he must be a pupil of War. He learns to be a tactical leader at Amon Hen, an operational leader at Helm’s Deep, and a strategic leader at the Dwimorberg, thus a King comes to the Pelennor.
That question was just a tease, of course; but I think the evaluation of Aragorn stands. And his rôle as the leader of the Quest is over; the last stage will be Frodo and Sam's alone.
He will learn that he can aid them as a strategic leader by advancing on the Morannon.
Thanks again to all who have participated, or just lurked!
Thank you for leading!
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I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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