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sador
Half-elven
Jun 18 2015, 2:07pm
Post #26 of 36
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Gandalf attributes the ability to those who have lived in the Blessed Realm.
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I'm wondering here whether Legolas sees a shadow, or whether he's more able to see into the wraith-world than his mortal colleagues, & if so whether he can see the target more clearly.
This relates to another question I ask myself - whether Tolkien ever thought of connecting our Legolas to the Legolas of Gondolin, which is mentioned in The Book of Lost Tales.
But even if he did - there is no indication that Legolas of Gondolin was an Exile himself.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 18 2015, 3:53pm
Post #27 of 36
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A Knight takes every opportunity to extol and praise his Lady. I’m surprised Gimli isn’t doing it in couplets.
Well, Sam will do it before Faramir in The Window on the West.
And I've compared the two White Queen's Knights before.
Dwarves do seem to be affected by ghosts of Men (His knees shook, and he was wroth with himself. –The Passing of the Grey Company) and by Ringwraiths ('At that his breath came like the hiss of snakes, and all who stood by shuddered...’ –The Council of Elrond), but really, I wager beginning as a wee lad Gimli was regularly scared sheetless by bedtime stories of Smaug the Golden and Durin’s Bane.
True; but as you say, less than by monsters.
Gandalf seemed still pretty unsteady. In his state he’d likely have strayed out of thought and time and Gwaihir’s back a couple of thousand feet straight down.
Bracegirdle made the same point, but put it in a more mundane way.
I must admit I never considered this possibility before. Thank you both!
Concealing his mind is one thing, concealing his nervousness is another. Boromir found Frodo easily enough at Amon Hen. Frodo might just as well have left him a note. That's a good point.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 18 2015, 4:42pm
Post #29 of 36
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In think this was Tolkien's conclusion.
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Although if the Lorien experience is mainly playing with other people's senses and prespectives - does that make the tampering any less sinful?
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 18 2015, 4:53pm
Post #30 of 36
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"My mistress' eyes are nothing like the sun"
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For one thing, the sun is necessary for growth in an immediate way the moon is not.
For another, if the illusion of continuity with the outer world needs to be kept, one can't do without the sun, but can without the moon.
For a third, according to The Silmarillion (and in The Book of Lost Tales, the comparison is more striking, in a comic way) - the sun was far more powerful; possibly too powerful for Galadriel to control.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 18 2015, 5:13pm
Post #31 of 36
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“To be a gardener is to believe in tomorrow,” and that’s Sam’s job up until the very end. Beautiful!
Frankly “Wandering Moon” was not only bothersome, it was downright disturbing! True.
And no, I made no reference to My Little Ponies.
I think it may have been, like with irredeemable orcs, sparked by a growing theological concern with the subjective idea of time of Kant and Leibniz (time is dependent on Man), contrasted with the objective idea of time of Clarke and Newton (time is dependent on God).
A world without time is a world without God I agree with both statements.
I’ve always seen Galadriel as being taken completely off guard by Frodo offering her the ring.
Interesting.
I am sure she was - but one might plan, and even wish for something, and still be taken completely off-guard when it happens!
(Like I was when my wife agreed to marry me)
I’d think it’s not Elves or even Hobbits who’d have to pass Eru’s test (if any) but Men. And between Aragorn and Boromir it’s a split decision.
I guess hobbits are like Men in this respect.
And whose test do Elves have to pass? That of the Valar?
Well, I like this idea, especially considering that according to The Tale of Adanel (the appendix to the Athrabeth), Eru Himself spoke to the forefathers of Men - but never to Elves.
If there is one, the key is Frodo. Frodo proves Gandalf’s judgment and instincts about hobbits, the Ringbearer, the Ringquest, etc. was pretty spot on, so Eru decides to leave him in the game.
That's nice.
I've always thought of it as Eru justifying Gandalf's breach of the limits and using his power to save Frodo from the Balrog.
Soon it will be the phase of the moon
When people tune in.
Every girl knows about the punctual blues,
But who's to know the power behind our moves?
-Kate Bush, Strange Phenomena
Thumbs up!
It also shows Boromir the Man as a mirror to Galadriel the Elf. He, like Galadriel, was in the end redeemed by hobbits.
Beautiful. Thank you! (and also for the praose)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 18 2015, 7:36pm
Post #32 of 36
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Oh, my! Here we go again
and again . . .
I wouldn't put too much stock on the “three ride limit” rule
Especially as the third time is yet far in the future. Do you think Gandalf saved it for later?
I personally think that Gwaihir might have taken Gandalf to Fangorn, and this would still be considered a part of the second time; or else that the "three times count" refers to Gandalf the White only.
And of course (blasphemy alert!), Tolkien might have forgotten about this little detail, or simply not thought it out.
As we read Letters we see how diligent and attentive Tolkien was to detail pre-publication of LotR and H., and how hard he tried to harmonize his works. Did he make minor errors? – yes. Major errors – I don’t think so! This would definitely constitute a major error to me.
We must start near the end of LOTR, after The Ring’s destruction, where Gandalf says:
”Twice you have borne me, Gwaihir my friend. . .Thrice shall pay for all. . .” The first was the rescue from Orthanc, and the second the rescue from Zirak- zigal. This third would be from the slag hills to Mt. Doom.
To assume that Tolkien forgot any other ride (including a ride to Fangorn (as many days would have passed and this would constitute A ride and not a continuation) is (to me) unthinkable!
”And Thrain your father went away on the twenty-first of April, a hundred years ago last Thursday. . .”
Gandalf: –The Hobbit Definitely not the words of someone who is forgetful.
No. I don’t think Tolkien forgot! Nor do I think Gandalf forgot.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 22 2015, 7:54am
Post #33 of 36
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But I woukd recommend beginning with The White Rider:
'And so at the last Gwaihir the Windlord found me again, and he took me up and bore me away. '
'Ever am I fated to be your burden, friend at need,' I said.
'A burden you have been,' he answered, 'but not so now. Light as a swan's feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. Indeed I do not think you need me any more: were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind.'
'Do not let me fall!' I gasped, for I felt life in me again. 'Bear me to Lothlórien'
How do you understand "Ever am I fated"? This is just the second time! And does 'a burden you have been' refer just to the escape from Orthanc? (yes, I know that Gwaihir says he was "sent to bear messages not burdens").
I think the simplest internal explanation is that however many times Gwaihir carried Gandalf before he was sent back, simply do not count. That means that there would be three time he carried Gandalf the White - and we have got one missing...
I am pretty sure the correct answer was that in The White Rider Tolkien was bearing in mind also the rescue in The Hobbit, as well as previous unmentioned occasions; while in The Field of Cormallen he indeed meant Orthanc and Zirak-zigil. Inconsistent, and forgetting the previous paragraph. You'll be surprised how often this happens to the best authors and novelists, JRRT not excluded.
And even if you are right - there is no mention whatever of a 'three ride limit'. Gandalf counting later to three eucatastophic moments does not necessarily means there were no mundane rides, and even if there weren't - there was no limit. So my question why didn't Gandalf try to join the Fellowship stands.
Oh, and the 'comic detail' (in Rateliff's words) about when Thrain disappeared ould easily be explained, say if Gandalf was with Thorin on the memorial day.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 22 2015, 1:10pm
Post #34 of 36
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”Twice you have borne me, Gwaihir my friend. . .Thrice shall pay for all. . .”
Both Tolkien and Gandalf are wrong or forgetful and this should be:
"Many times you have borne me, Gwaihir my friend. . . This time shall pay for all. . ."
I choose to take the written word as gospel (3 rides total), but we are all free to jockey this written word and surmise our personal desires. 
Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 23 2015, 11:32am
Post #35 of 36
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So I looked up HoME on this topic.
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(The obvious thing to do - but I haven't yet seen anyone who did it. Probably a better exposition than the one I'm about to offer exists somewhere in the vast realms of the Internet.)
As is probably known, HoME is not complete; it has only some 5000 pages, where a full reproduction of Tolkien's drafts and ideas would take several times as long, and be utterly unreadable. The tacit assumption is than Christopher Tolkien made no important omission, and has condensed and presented the material in an excellent way (as Douglas Kane, known here as Voronwe the Faithful, answered Carl Hofstetter's criticism of Arda Reconstructed in HoF).
In short, we have two different texts, which have different implications: "Ever am I fated to be your burden" from The White Rider, and "Twice you have borne me" from The Field of Cormallen. Interestingly enough, neither statement merits a direct comment in HoME (as far as I can see), which I take to mean that they were written by Tolkien when he first wrote down the relevant paragraph, and were never changed.
But HoME does include two relevant passages:
In The Treason of Isengard, ps. 396-397, in a pencilled note JRRT wrote next to Legolas seeing the Eagle in The Riders of Rohan:
Eagle should be flying from Sarn Gebir, bearing Gandalf from Tolbrandir where he resisted the Eye and saved Frodo.
i.e., Gandalf was taken to Tol Brandir (it is established he could not scale it by himself), and then taken back to Fangorn. This accounts for both cases in which Gwaihir is seen by the Fellowship. More than that, this answers my original question, why did Gandalf not try to rejoin the Company? Perhaps he did, but was foiled by the encounter with the Eye, and the subsequent breaking of the Fellowship.
However, Tolkien wrote (sometime later) against this note NO. He rejected the idea of Gandalf being on Tol Brandir, and Gwaihir was instead sent by Gandalf to seek news (as in the text of The White Rider). Did he reject the idea of Gwaihir carrying Gandalf away from Lothlorien? Maybe - but see below.
In Treason, page 426-427, a new storyline is suggested, to which I bring Christopher's summation:
The story that Gandalf was on Tol Brandir when Frodo sat on Amon Hen, and that he was borne across Rohan by the eagle has been abandoned; Gwaewar is now in his later role as gatherer of tidings... It is not clear at this stage what happened to Gandalf, and it seems that my father did not at the moment intend to make it so. Is it to be supposed that he made his way south along the mountains and so came to Methedras?... This may suggest that the story of his being borne by the Eagle to Lothlorien had not yet arisen.
The last suggestion is based on what Christopher Tolkien calls 'A single isolated and interrupted sentence'. I am not enteirly sure what he means - is it on the same text? At any rate the story of Gandalf being carried to Lothlorien might have been abandoned and returned-to; or else orginally Gwaihir was carrying Gandalf to Tol Brandir from Zirak-zigil; or Gwaihir may have carried Gandalf to Lorien, then Gandalf left him and walked alone to Methedras and from there to Fangorn. This last interpretation is the one which would tally the best with the reading you (Bracegirdle) suggested; however, it appears that Christopher thinks it unlikely.
However, it appears that after The White Rider was written, Gandalf was perceived as going from Lorien to Methedras, and as he spent there some time, he must have gotten there really fast. Also, the "Ever am I fated to be your burden" quote was said at a time when Tolkien considered it quite feasible that Gwaihir was more or less carrying Gandalf hither and thither, and apparently he has done so more than once before, as "Ever I am fated" implies several previous times. As far as I know, there is no indication that at this stage Tolkien thought otherwise.
In Sauron Defeated, page 45, there is no mention of any important difference, other than the different names of Zirak-zigil. However (as I bashfully admit), I found it extremely useful - as it reminded me of an important sentence in the published work, which I have forgotten about.
So, with this additional information, what do we make of the "Twice you have borne me" quote?
Well, I have discussed this in length here, beginning after question no. 7 (I used to number the questions back then. Wasn't it more useful?), up to question no. 11. I have little to add to that discussion, save one short sentence I have noticed (and forgotten):
Thrice shall pay for all, it you are willing. You will not find me a burden much greater than when you bore me from Zirakzigil, where my old life burned away.
Isn't the simplest solution to the contradiction that the twice Gwaihir had borne Gandalf were in the "new life"?
Two final notes:
1. Tolkien did have a chance of clarifying what had happened to Gandalf between Lorien and Fangorn, when he made appendix B, The Tale of Years. He did not do so; there is no mention of Gandalf's movements between February 17th and March 1st (by implication on February 30th he was in Fangorn).
2. Having re-read your (Bracegirdle's) first response to me, I see that I have misread it: when you wrote about a "three ride limit" you apparently did not mean that such a limit was prescribed, but that based on Gandalf's statement, you've concluded that Gwaihir could not have carried Gandalf to Fangorn (or Methedras, or whatever "high place" he was in on February 26th). I apologise for my mistake.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 25 2015, 5:25pm
Post #36 of 36
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to your post Sador, as I felt that we both seem somewhat adamant about Gwaihir and Gandalf - but then I felt an apology was in order for the sarcasm and curtness in my last post. No personal criticism was intended I assure you.
Having gotten the mea culpas out of the way I would like to give my thoughts to some of your salient comments, and further explain where I’m coming from.
Firstly to bolster my interpretations I quote from Letters: #35: The writing of the Lord of the Rings is laborious, because I have been doing it as well as I know how, and considering every word.
And #109: It is written in my life-blood, such as that is, thick or thin; . . .
And #131: It was begun [LotR] in 1936 and every part has been written many times. Hardly a word in its 600,000 or more has been unconsidered. And the placing, size, style, and contribution to the whole of all the features, incidents, and chapters has been laboriously pondered. (my emphasis) I’m sure there are other statements (pre-publication) from other sources concerning Tolkien’s tireless attempts at precision, e.g. The Inklings, editors, etc.
Are there errors in LotR (as we seem to be mostly concerned with this) – yes. Tolkien himself mentions in LotR Appendix D: I am not skilled in these matters, [Shire dates] and may have made many errors; but at any rate the chronology of the crucial years S.R. 1418, 1419 is so carefully set out in the Red Book that there cannot be much doubt about days and times at that point. (my emphasis) These non-crucial Shire dates would (to me) constitute a triviality not a major flaw as would be the number of Gwaihir rides (if more than three).
Thus in this singular quote (I’m sure there are many more) he admits to a trivial (to me) shortfall which does not affect the tale proper. But the relationship between Gandalf and Gwaihir does not fall under this trivial umbrella. It has become a necessary part of the tale. Thus I base my belief on the Tolkien-published work. Thrice shall pay for all. (Redundancy seems inevitable in this discussion.)
Considering Tolkien’s tenacity for exactitude I find it beyond my comprehension that he could have missed a ride or two on Gwaihir as this would constitute a major inattentive flaw that he (et al) would certainly not have missed IMO.
And now to comment in kindness on some of your points (pardon if I can only respond to a portion as I prefer to stick to the Tolkien published works):
How do you understand "Ever am I fated"? This is just the second time! And does 'a burden you have been' refer just to the escape from Orthanc? I can understand your reasoning this being “just the second time” – but could we consider a modern day meeting?
I bump into a guy at the grocery store with my shopping cart. “Oh, excuse me.” Two weeks later I bump into the same guy again. “Well, hello my friend. It seems we must be fated to meet like this.” After two “bumps” a friendly relationship has developed.
As for does ‘a burden you have been’ refer to just Orthanc? Yes. I see no reason why not.
I think the simplest internal explanation is that however many times Gwaihir carried Gandalf before he was sent back, simply do not count. That means that there would be three time he carried Gandalf the White - and we have got one missing...
I am pretty sure the correct answer was that in The White Rider Tolkien was bearing in mind also the rescue in The Hobbit, as well as previous unmentioned occasions; while in The Field of Cormallen he indeed meant Orthanc and Zirak-zigil. Inconsistent, and forgetting the previous paragraph. You'll be surprised how often this happens to the best authors and novelists, JRRT not excluded.
If I understand your thinking here ’Thrice shall pay for all. . .’ refers only to Gandalf the White, not Gandalf the Grey, or hmm, Gandalf the ? on Zirak-zigal. (Brings up the question of when did he become Gandalf the White? Immediately upon his resurrection I suppose.)
My opinion is that Olorin was Gandalf; Olorin was Gandalf the Grey; and Olorin was Gandalf the White and ”Thrice shall pay for all..” refers to this personage. I can only answer your other comments by referring to my observations above with a further comment on The Hobbit:
It is pleasing to suppose that Gandalf would only ride on the swiftest, most noble, most lordly of Eagles. But in LotR Gwaihir was never called “The King of all Birds”, or “The Lord of the Eagles”, he was simply called “Gwaihir the Windlord” or most often just “Gwaihir”.
IMO (stubbornly sticking to my three ride limit rule) Gwaihir was not the Lord of the Eagles in The Hobbit, although he could have been involved in the rescue from the trees; he could not have been the particular Eagle that rescued Gandalf. He also could have been involved in the BOFA, although he wasn’t named in either incidence.
Your latest post mentions Tol Brandir and Methedras in some “penciled notes” or “older drafts”, in (apparently) your and CJRT’s search for a “high place”. (?) (Apologies if I am reading you wrong here.) Both thoughts were abandoned in the published works, and I can’t comment on your thoughts on these books as I don’t have them.
I would like to try and summarize and end my opinion and my overly long redundancy: I believe that Gandalf walked to Fangorn, probably leaving afoot on about Feb. 21-22 (after less than a week’s recovery in Lorien), and somewhere north of Fangorn or in northern Fangorn he came across a “high place”.
There are a couple of textual references to Gandalf’s whereabouts between Feb. 17th (the ride to Lorien) and Mar. 1st (the conversation between Gandalf and the Three Hunters on Treebeard’s Hill):
Gwaihir was seen by Legolas: ”I have seen an eagle . . .three days ago. . .”’ This would be Feb. 27th.
Gandalf: ’Yes,. . .that was Gwaihir the Windlord. . .I sent him before me to watch the River. . . I sat in a high place. .. and I walked long in dark thought.’ –The White Rider
Also on Feb. 26 Gandalf sees Treebeard, ”I saw him four days ago striding among the trees. . .” -ibid. So we know Gandalf was IN Fangorn on the 26th, which if he left Lorien on the 21st or 22nd this would give him 9-10 day’s walking time to reach Treebeard’s Hill in south-eastern Fangorn, which from CJRT’s maps seems to be about 120 or so miles.
Note: There are no mentions of rides, but there is a mention of walking.
But I digress into debatable trivialities. There seem to be two camps of opinion on the number of Gandalf/Gwaihir rides. You are of the camp that there were more than three total. I am of the camp that there were but three total.
I do respect your opinion and your intense well thought out research into the subject. And I hope you can understand my opinion, and we can agree to disagree, (aw, hate those clichés).
Rereading my last (terse and sarcastic) post I used the word ‘jockey’, which may have seemed insultive. It was not meant to be. It was meant to infer “conjecture” or “assumption” (of which I myself have done plenty). Apologies if this sentence was interpreted as a personal affront – it was not meant to be such.
Boromir looked in surprise at Bilbo, but the laughter died on his lips when he saw that all the others regarded the old hobbit with grave respect. Only Glóin smiled, but his smile came from old memories.
-JRR Tolkien
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"The stars at night/are big and bright/ bom, bom, bom, bom/Deep in the Heart of Elvendom" //
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