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sador
Half-elven
Jun 12 2015, 4:51am
Post #1 of 36
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** 'The Fellowship of the Ring' book II, ch. 9-2, 'The Great River': Sarn Gebir
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I must apologise for being so far behind schedule. I have tried this time to set both a plan, and a format, for this discussion; it seems that I have failed. I have excuses, if anybody is interested in them - bith the bottom line is that I am late, and the rest of the discussion is not prepared yet. At the present, the most I can hope for is getting to the end of the chapter without infringing on squire's discussion next week.
"I'm a real straight shooter, if you know what I mean"
Aragorn is wrong in his reckoning, supposing that after two further nights, they will still be well before the rapids, while in fact, close upon midnight of the second night:
…suddenly Sam cried out. Only a few yards ahead dark shapes loomed up in the stream and he heard the swirl of racing water. There was a swift current which swung left, towards the eastern shore where the channel was clear. As they were swept aside the travellers could see, now very close, the pale foam of the River lashing against sharp rocks that were thrust out far into the stream like a ridge of teeth.
This is frightening! I have no firsthand experience of rapids, and am no waterman myself (Was Tolkien? Does anybody know?); so I need to ask a few ignorant questions:
Is this current to the left natural? Looking at the Map (although it is on a large scale, so obviously local conditions vary) it seems the river is in the middle of a gentle loop to the east. Shouldn't the current carry the boats to the right?
Would the current be strong and turbulent enough to carry them from the western side, where they would presumably prefer to steer, to the eastern? Or did they drift to the middle of the river or beyond, without anybody noticing?
I get that Sam sees the sharp rocks suddenly. But shouldn't the current quicken some time before the rapids? Are boats (and these are elven-boats!) who near rapids swept aside so suddenly, or should Aragorn in the leading boat have noticed this before?
And again – do you have any pictures, images or links to rapids which are like Sarn Gebir – at daytime, at nighttime? As Jackson omitted this episode from his films, my imagination has no cue. 
I must observe, that the only time in the trilogy the forces of good are actually defeated, is by Caradhras. It is very telling that Tolkien never shows us any victory by the enemy, but there is one by the forces of nature (well, if we assume that Caradhras is somehow sentient, it is less telling). Here, they are again nearly defeated – by another natural phenomenon.
It is Boromir who first reacts, and recognizes the rapids:
'Hoy there, Aragorn!' shouted Boromir, as his boat bumped into the leader. 'This is madness! We cannot dare the Rapids by night! But no boat can live in Sarn Gebir, be it night or day.'
'Back, back!' cried Aragorn. 'Turn! Turn if you can!' He drove his paddle into the water, trying to hold the boat and bring it round.
…at first they could make only small headway against the current, and all the time they were carried nearer and nearer to the eastern bank. Now dark and ominous it loomed up in the night.
'All together, paddle!' shouted Boromir. 'Paddle! Or we shall be driven on the shoals.' Even as he spoke Frodo felt the keel beneath him grate upon stone.
Why is it Boromir who shouts instructions? Is he panicky, or is he assuming the leadership, while Aragorn is in a state of shock?
At Caradhras too, it was Boromir who twice saved the Fellowship – first by his suggestions to bring firewood with them, and then by clearing the path through the wall of snow.
Shouldn't Aragorn be the most capable in coping with natural challenges? Or is Boromir simply at his best when fighting losing battles?
As if this was not enough…
At that moment there was a twang of bowstrings: several arrows whistled over them, and some fell among them. One smote Frodo between the shoulders and he lurched forward with a cry, letting go his paddle; but the arrow fell back, foiled by his hidden coat of mail. Another passed through Aragorn's hood; and a third stood fast in the gunwale of the second boat, close by Merry's hand. Sam thought he could glimpse black figures running to a fro upon the long shingle-banks that lay under the eastern shore. They seemed very near.
'Yrch!' said Legolas, falling into his own tongue.
'Orcs!' cried Gimli.
'Gollum's doing, I'll be bound,' said Sam to Frodo. 'And a nice place to choose, too. The River seems set on taking us right into their arms!'
Legolas calles the enemy Yrch, and Gimli Orcs. In a few pages, Sam will call them "those cursed goblins"
Is this a sign of the disintegration of the Fellowship, or simply an indication of the diversity of its members – and thus a good sign?
What do you think of Sam's suggestion that this is Gollum's doing? Would having the boats founder in the rapids serve Gollum's purpose in any way? And based on what happens in the next page, isn't the Winged Messenger a more likely suspect?
The arrows nearly hit them: Frodo is hit in the mithril-coat (how lucky, to score a direct hit at the one person who is adequately armoured!); Aragorn gets an arrow in his hood, and a third hits near Merry.
This must be compared with The Bridge of Khazad-dúm:
Arrows fell among them. One struck Frodo and sprung back. Another pierced Gandalf's hat and stuck there like a black feather.
This shows in a quite convincing way that Aragorn is Gandalf's heir, doesn't it? Or do you wish Tolkien would be a bit less repetetive?
Tolkien suggests they weren't hit because of the attributes of either the boats, or the elven-cloaks.
Which was it? And what do you think of Tolkien's hint – is it subtle enough, or too subtle, for your taste?
I love Tolkien's description of the struggle against the current:
Stroke by stroke they laboured on. In the darkness it was hard to be sure that they were indeed moving at all; but slowly the swirl of the water grew less, and the shadow of the eastern bank faded back into the night. At last, as far as they could judge, they had reached the middle of the stream again and had driven their boats back some distance above the jutting rocks. Then half turning they thrust them with all their strength towards the western shore. Under the shadow of bushes leaning out over the water they halted and drew breath.
Phew! No questions, just saying that personally, I find this paragraph more thrilling and exciting than another battle against mythical humanoids.
Unless you have any comment, of course.
Legolas is the first to spring ashore, stringing the bow and fitting an arrow.
Half a second! (time for another ignorant question) Are bows usually unstrung?
Frodo looked up at the Elf standing tall above him, as he gazed into the night, seeking a mark to shoot at. His head was dark, crowned with sharp white stars that glittered in the black pools of the sky behind… A sudden dread fell on the Company.
In a previous discussion, I've connected this to the description of Durin looking in Kheled-zâram (from Gimli's song in A Journey in the Dark):
He stooped and looked in Mirrormere,
And saw a crown of stars appear,
As gems upon a silver thread,
Above the shadow of his head.
And when Frodo looks and sees Durin's crown:
There like jewels sunk in the deep shone glinting stars, though sunlight was in the sky above.
What do you make of the similarity?
And now we come to the moist memorable feat of this chapter:
'Elbereth Gilthoniel!' sighed Legolas as he looked up. Even as he did so, a dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud, for it
moved far more swiftly, came out of the blackness in the South, and sped towards the Company, blotting out all light as it approached. Soon it appeared as a great winged creature, blacker than the pits in the night. Fierce voices rose up to greet it from across the water. Frodo felt a sudden chill running through him and clutching at his heart; there was a deadly cold, like the memory of an old wound, in his shoulder. He crouched down, as if to hide.
Suddenly the great bow of Lórien sang. Shrill went the arrow from the elven-string. Frodo looked up. Almost above him the winged shape swerved. There was a harsh croaking scream, as it fell out of the air, vanishing down into the gloom of the eastern shore. The sky was clean again.
Hold on! In Three is Company, Frodo identifies Gildor and his company as high-elves because they speak the name of Elbereth! How does Legolas dare invoke her?
'Shrill went the arrow from the elven-string'. Isn't this a strange use of the word 'shrill'?
In the drafts, Legolas shoots from the boat in mid-stream – an even more remarkable feat!
Was this changed because it was too remarkable? Or do you think this improved the story? How?
And a last question for this thread – the winged shape is hit while flying in mid-air; it came from the eastern bank, and was flying westward with great speed. It is hit when directly above them – i.e. already above the western bank. Yet it falls out of the air, 'vanishing down into the gloom of the eastern shore'.
Given its tremendous momentum - even if it did swerve when it was hit, wouldn't it fall into the western bank?
Well, this was pretty long for one post. And we haven't yet touched on the two fascinating debates the fellowship holds following this attack. Of the two additional posts, one will be devoted to each.
(This post was edited by sador on Jun 12 2015, 4:52am)
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 12 2015, 5:08am
Post #2 of 36
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9-2 I: "A dark shape, like a cloud and yet not a cloud."
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The first debate refers to the event which has just occurred:
'Praised be the bow of Galadriel, and the hand and eye of Legolas!' said Gimli, as he munched a wafer of lembas. 'That was a mighty shot in the dark, my friend!'
'But who can say what it hit?' said Legolas.
'I cannot,' said Gimli. `But I am glad that the shadow came no nearer. I liked it not at all. Too much it reminded me of the shadow in Moria - the shadow of the Balrog,' he ended in a whisper.
'It was not a Balrog,' said Frodo, still shivering with the chill that had come upon him. 'It was something colder. I think it was -' Then he paused and fell silent.
'What do you think?' asked Boromir eagerly, leaning from his boat, as if he was trying to catch a glimpse of Frodo's face.
'I think – no, I will not say,' answered Frodo. 'Whatever it was, its fall has dismayed our enemies.'
'So it seems,' said Aragorn.
Why do you think Gimli begins with praising the bow of Galadriel? Is this mere courtesy? A sign of his infatuation with her? Or simply, as he will be addressing Legolas, he opens by praising others?
Seeing that Gimli is reminded of the Balrog, it is worthwhile to compare to The Bridge of Khazad-dúm:
Legolas turned and set an arrow to the string, though it was a long shot for his small bow. He drew, but his hand fell, and the arrow dropped to the ground. He gave a cry of dismay and fear.
Was Gimli simply reminded of the situation and contrasted Legolas' abilities in both situations?
But if we compare the two, I note that while Legolas and Gimli seemed utterly unmanned (well, you know what I mean), Aragorn and Boromir were not; but here, Legolas confidently shoots at the unknown enemy, while A sudden dread fell on [the rest of] the Company! (For instance, Boromir doesn't even blow his horn)
What do you make of this difference? Is there some reason why the Elf and Dwarf would be more dismayed by the Balrog, but mortals by a Ringwraith?
Well, I have given the answer to Legolas' question. Here it is still a mystery; the answer is given opaquely by Uglúk in The Uruk-hai (if we know the Nazgûl which Grishnákh is speaking about is a Ringwraith), and explicitly by Gandalf in The White Rider.
But did you guess when you first read it? Did Frodo's sudden feeling cold in his shoulder point out the answer?
And did you connect it with the extraordinary shadow which passed 'over the high stars' in The Ring Goes South?
What do you think was its function here – was it just reconnoitering along the River? Did it somehow sense the Ring? Or was it a part of a co-ordination between Sauron and Saruman – sent to bring Grishnákh to a rendezvous with the raiding Uruk-hai?
The last suggestion seems reasonable, seeing that Uglúk knew of the Nazgûl's fate. But it contradicts Gandalf's assertion that Saruman knew nothing of the Winged Messenger.
Was Gandalf simply mistaken, based on his knowing nothing of the palantír? To which might be added Gwaihir's apparent missing of the Nazgûl landing Grishnákh on the other side of the River. Or was he right, and Sauron sent his faithful servant to intercept the raid which he knew of?
Speaking of Gwiahir – do you think the Winged Messenger was aware of the Eagle nearby?
By the way, from the responses to a previous thread, it appears that not all readers remember that the eagle is Gwaihir. Gandalf says so specifically in The White Rider, saying that he sent him to gather news.
On the other hand - if Gwaihir indeed 'works for' Gandalf, why didn't the wizard try to catch up with them?
The comparison with the Balrog is very interesting.
Gimli calls the Balrog 'The Shadow of Moria', as if that was its essence; and indeed, before it kindled it was just:
…like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form.
This comparison goes pretty far, seeing that the Ringwraithes, too, are just shadows. But this seems to be the essence of the Enemy! After all (an idea I first read in Prof. Shippey's books), the Verse of the Rings speaks of "Mordor where the shadows lie" which is a perfectly regular simile, sinister enough in itself. But in The Fall of Gil-Galad (which Sam recites on Weathertop), there is a slight variation:
For into darkness fell his star,
In Mordor where the shadows are.
What does 'are' mean? Had this been just 'where the shadows lie', it would have been a simple echo of the Verse of the Rings. But (unless, of course, Bilbo mistranslated) the word 'are' might carry a double meaning – indicating that in the land of Mordor the shadows somehow are real, and tangible. So it is with the Ringwraithes – and maybe with the Balrog two?
Was the only difference between the Balrog and the Ringwraithes that the Balrog was a hot shadow, while the wraithes are (as Frodo says) simply colder?
To put it in a different context – when debating the Balrog's wings, it is often contended that they were simply wings of shadow. But if what I've written above is true, weren't they just as real as the rest of it?
The reaction of Frodo, and the question of Boromir, are both quite interesting.
It seems that Frodo figures out exactly what the Winged Messenger was. Why didn't he name it? Was it out of simple reluctance to name the Devil, like in Minas Tirith Sauron's name is never mentioned? An internal refusal to face the facts? A realization how desperate an undertaking it would be now, to leave the Fellowship alone? Or does he still plan to do so, but is sure that if they know what new calamity is above they won't let him?
Apart of Frodo (and possibly Merry), Boromir is the one member of the Fellowship who should guess what the Messenger is. Well, the others too, had they paid sufficient attention to his words at the Council of Elrond:
Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest…
'A dark shadow under the moon' – this is quite the same description, and the reactions of friend and foe are the same. I would call that a dead giveaway. But the others seem not to get it! As is made clear by Legolas' question to Gandalf in The White Rider.
Do you think Aragorn didn't guess, too? Or was he simply not saying anything, like he said nothing about Gollum? On the other hand, in the debate in the next chapter, shouldn’t he have said anything had he guessed?
So regarding Boromir – what was he trying to get from Frodo? A reassurance that he shared his guess? Was he just trying to read his mind, in some sort of clumsy imitation of Galadriel? (In which case, how good is Frodo in concealing his mind?) Or was he trying to reach out to him, to attain some sort of rapport, in order to persuade Frodo to listen to his counsel?
More about Boromir in the next thread, which will carry us from the Rapids to the gates of Argonath; in the debate we will discuss in the next subthread, he takes no part.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 12 2015, 11:19am
Post #3 of 36
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9-2 II: "Time stands still as I gaze in her waters."
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Well, I am quite an admirer of Alan Parsons' Project, and perhaps should have began with "Time, flowing like a river"; or perhaps with the Pink Floyd song, which I could probably quote ad nauseam – but in this week's installment of his The Arda 300 list, Dân o’Nandor-on-Anduin included two songs by Styx, which made me realize that apaprt of having a title perfectly apt for this chapter's discussion, Boat on the River speaks of time standing still – the subject of this post.
Well, I hope the above frivolous paragraph had amused you, because the subject of this post is serious and complex – I make no pretense of understanding it, let alone covering it adequately. Any proper discussion should include a serious reading, both deep and critical, of Verlyn Flieger's brilliant book A Question of Time, especially chapter no. 4, Over the Bridge of Time (pps. 89-115).
I will not delve into it; I'll just skim the surface.
Sam sat tapping the hilt of his sword as if he were counting on his fingers, and looking up at the sky. 'It's very strange,' he murmured. 'The Moon's the same in the Shire and in Wilderland, or it ought to be. But either it's out of its running, or I'm all wrong in my reckoning... I can remember three nights there for certain and I seem to remember several more, but I would take my oath it was never a whole month. Anyone would think that time did not count in there!'
Sam is making an interesting assumption about the moon supposed to be the same everywhere. I won't go off a limb, and ask how much of modern science is based on a similar unproven, though intuitive, assumption; suffice it to say that perhaps he was paying attention in the Council, and drew the right conclusion from Aragorn's statement that in Rhûn and Harad the stars are strange.
But why is he the only one to notice the strange moon? Did everybody else understand it? Or is this simply the natural choice of a mouthpiece on Tolkien's side, seeing that it should be a curious hobbit, and in this chapter the most loquacious of hobbits is Sam? Or should we put it down to the fact that as a gardener, Sam should be in touch with nature the most, and would be the one to be bothered by the wandering moon?
'And perhaps that was the way of it' said Frodo. 'In that land, maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by. It was not until Silverlode bore us back to Anduin that we returned to the time that flows through mortal lands to the Great Sea. And I don't remember any moon, either new or old, in Caras Galadon: only stars by night and sun by day.'
As Tom Shippey puts it (Author of the Century, p. 90):
Frodo agrees with him, and suggests that in Lothlórien they had entered a world beyond time. But Legolas the elf offers a deeper explanation, not from a human point of view but from an elvish.
Loth would I be to argue with Shippey; but does Frodo indeed agree with Sam? There seems to be a world of difference between ‘time did not count in there’ and ‘a time that has elsewhere long gone by’.
Shippey is concerned mainly with Tolkien as a philologist and mediævalist; he uses Legolas’ words to explain the legends of time standing still for the mortal in Elfland – of time standing still while one is sojourning there, as in Smith of Wootton Major, on the one hand, and of centuries passing by as one stands bewitched, as in the story of Thingol and Melian (recently, an essay was published in which Tolkien himself discusses this duality; the relevant part was quoted here).
Legolas says:
Nay, time does not tarry ever, but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change little, and all else fleets by: it is a grief to them. Slow, because they do not count the running years, not for themselves. The passing seasons are but ripples
ever repeated in the long long stream. Yet beneath the Sun all things must wear to an end.
Shippey comments:
What Legolas says makes perfect sense, from the viewpoint of an immortal. It also explains how mortals are deceived when they enter into elvish time, and can interpret it as either fast or slow.
Before proceeding, do you have any comment to make on Legolas’ words? I, personally, love the ‘ripples ever repeated in the long long stream‘.
An interesting (at least to me) note: in The Treason of Isengard, p. 366, Christopher Tolkien admits:
The phrase as my father wrote it was 'because they need not count the running years', but in copying I missed out the word
"need". Looking through my copy, but without consulting his own manuscript, he wrote in "do", and "do" survives in FR.
On which Verlyn Flieger comments (A Question of Time, page 99):
The difference is minor, but "need" might have conveyed more precisely the options of the Elves in the matter of time.
Do you agree with Prof. Flieger? I would suggest that "need" conveys the feelings that for ordinary elves (such as the Mirkwood elves, whom Legolas represents), counting the years is a superfluity, only to be bothered about by those involved in high politics. This is not so much a matter of ‘options’ open to the elves, but of the luxury to “fritter and waste the years in an off-hand way”.
And even Christopher’s account, plausible as it is, appears to be no more than a guess that had he copied the manuscript properly, the word "need" would have been in the printed version. But seeing that it wasn’t, his father wrote "do" instead. Possibly; but this might have been not so much a regrettable omission on his side, as a fortunate one. After all, upon noticing the missing verb, JRRT did not choose to consult the manuscript (or did, and then rejected the original), and put in "do".
Might this choice of word not indicate a subtle shift in Tolkien’s approach – maybe towards Legolas, who has become a much more important person than he was at first? Or perhaps in his approach to the elves?
By which I mean, even if we accept Prof. Flieger’s opinion that according to the original reading, the elves had an option to ‘step outside time’, as it were – the second reading precludes it, only stating that the Elves choose to ignore the passing of time, preferring to live in a never-never land.
In A Question of Time, Prof. Flieger advances a different approach from Shippey’s, regarding elvish time. She makes the claim that Tolkien was a part of a movement, which took a special interest in the experience of time, asking questions about relativity and time-travel – as in Tolkien and Lewis’ famous ‘deal’ which lead to Lewis’ space trilogy on one hand, and the aborted The Lost Road and The Notion Club Papers on the other.
So while Shippey focuses on Legolas’ answer, and seems to consider it a sufficient answer, Flieger turns her attention to the mortal experience. She sees a noticeable variance between Frodo and Sam’s words, and even sets up Aragorn for a third, with his reply:
But so it is, Sam: in that land you lost your count. There time flowed swiftly by us, as for the Elves. The old moon passed, and a new moon waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried there. And yestereve a new moon came again. Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.
This is not the right place, and I am not the right person, to present Prof. Flieger’s theory and either laud or take issue with it. I love Aragorn’s final words, and may return to them in a further thread.
But as a regular reader, do you see anything fundamentally different in Aragorn’s words?
To reinforce her thesis, Prof. Flieger cites a few dramatic excerpts from the relvant chapters in HoME vol. 7, The Treason of Isengard. On page 368, in which Christopher Tolkien compares three different timelines his father worked with, the second timeline includes the following entry:
Jan. 14 – Over Silverlode. Time ceases.
Jan. 15 – Leave Lórien.
This seems to disprove Shippey’s reading, does it not? If time really ceases, then it is not just a matter of a different perception.
Well, I think it does – to an extent. It is, of course, entirely possible that when Shippey wrote Author of the Century he did not remember all twelve volumes of HoME; although one might expect him to notice this kind of detail! It is also true that this is a part of an ultimately rejected timeline, so perhaps it went under Shippey’s radar. The final, published timeline goes in the other way – that time in Lórien neither stopped or slowed down, but went ahead at an accelerated pace.
However, something of this initial idea survived, in the previous chapter, Farewell to Lórien.
In that chapter, Haldir reports of the Dimrill Dale being troubled, with noises in the deep of the earth, saying the way home is closed – leaving them with only the choices of going on or staying (in the drafts, this is completed by Celeborn saying the way North through the Beornings' land is also blocked). Tolkien intended this to be the return to normal time – however, he stopped in his tracks, writing to himself (Treason, p. 286):
This won't do – if Lórien is timeless, for then nothing will have happened since they entered.
And if I may presume to add, Legolas' words lamenting coming to Lórien in winter seem all wrong.
However, he had already written (or at least, conceived) the story of Sam realizing the nature of 'elvish time' by the stages of the moon, so he went the other way – making the time go by in the outside world, while in Lórien it went slow.
As a side-note – this change necessitated maked Gandalf's fight with the Balrog longer, and more momentous; and he could no longer defeat the Balrog and escape, but had to return from death after a month. More than that, the tumults Haldir reported could no longer be Gandalf's final battle with the Balrog, but his return to life, so it was set to be on February 14th, the day of the Mirror of Galadriel.
This might have been just a coincidence; but seeing that he returned to life on the very same time she had finally faced the ultimate test, and passed it, makes a strange juxtaposition:
Might she have seen with Frodo him wandering in the Mirror, but interpreted the vision correctly, and this helped her pass it? Conversely, could this have hastened her to brings the matter to a crisis (if we see her as manipulating Frodo to offer her the Ring)? Or was it the other way round – that once she had passed the test, Eru had decided to send Gandalf back?
Yes, this is a repeat of the question nowizardme asked recently. And my answer is: I do not know, but I think the two events are connected somehow, beyond the mere needs of the new plotline.
Returning to the main theme: once Tolkien had the time in Lórien go slow rather than fast, Frodo's words "we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by" make sense. But then see his response to Legolas:
'But the wearing is slow in Lórien,' said Frodo. 'The power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.'
Rich are the hours, though short they seem – and in fact, many more hours pass everywhere else. Confused? So am I.
If either Shippey or Flieger is right, Legolas' answer should be final; but Frodo's words seem to express dissent. This is not a matter of elvish time as opposed to mortal time, but something specific to Lórien. Compare this to his experience upon entering the Naith:
As soon as he (Frodo) had set foot upon the far bank of Silverlode a strange feeling had come upon him, and it had deepened as he walked on into the Naith: it seemed to him that he had stepped over a bridge of time into a corner of the Elder Days, and was now walking in a world that was no more. In Rivendell there was memory of ancient things; in Lórien the ancient things still lived in the waking world.
Well, this explains his words of "a time that has elsewhere long gone by"!
The contrast to Rivendell is also striking; but in Rivendell time clearly counts. However, it does have the same effect on Bilbo, if a bit diluted:
They stayed long in that good house, fourteen days at least, and they found it hard to leave. Bilbo would gladly have stopped there for ever and ever…
– A Short Rest.
'How long do you think I shall have here?' said Frodo to Bilbo when Gandalf had gone.
'Oh, I don't know. I can't count days in Rivendell,' said Bilbo. 'But quite long, I should think…'
– The Ring Goes South.
It might be that Rivendell is not quite the same, and Lórien is the only place in which mortals can experience Elfland. Indeed, Aragorn calls Cerin Amroth "the heart of Elvendom on earth". But taking this as a cue, one might make a distinction (like Flieger does, but a different one) between Frodo and Sam.
Sam noticed something odd at Cerin Amroth, which we will return to below. But Frodo was complety engulfed:
When he had gone and passed again into the outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlórien.
I would say that while Sam was a puzzled observer, Frodo was somehow sucked into Elvendom. Whether it was Bilbo's teaching, Gildor or Elrond's blessing, being the ring-bearer or passing through the harrowing experience of near-death by the Morgúl-blade, I cannot say. Galadriel attributed his ability to see her Ring to his being a Ring-bearer himself; did that make him more receptive to the effects of her Ring?
What do you think?
I actually wonder, whether Frodo the wanderer of the Shire could still 'walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlórien' after the Ring was destroyed, and Nenya failed. In which case, this strengthens my response to the question raised by Judith Klinger's essay, which we've discussed here. Once the Ring has gone, so did Lothlórien, Frodo the wanderer of the Shire became houseless, and the world was cold and empty.
Do you agree? Could he be healed of this kind of bereavement in Tol Eresëa?
One possible sign that the Ring might have been at work here, is Frodo's blurting out the idea of Galadriel as a Ring-bearer. While this seems an obvious conclusion, once you know the power with which the Three are endowed (we don't really, except from what we read about Lothlórien) – Aragorn rebukes him:
That should not have been said outside Lórien, not even
to me.
Why not? Is this a matter of some mystical avoiding of speaking of what is hidden, similar to Frodo's not naming the Black Rider in the air? (which, by the way, Sam did in the marshes).
Or is this a real concern that some enemies might be listening? After all, they did discuss their possible future courses pretty openly.
Or does Aragorn fear that one of the Company might give the secret away? For that matter, do you think that Gimli or Boromir overheard Frodo's words?
And had this been said inside Lórien – what then? Would the Lady have overheard and prevented them from leaving, say by turning Sam into a toad and filling the garden with snakes?
If Frodo is correct, and Lórien is a special case because of Galadriel using her Ring in a way Elrond did not – the passing of time in the 'heart of Elvendom on earth' becomes connected with the issue of the Rings of Power; and this adds a questionable moral dimension.
Before proceeding with this last phase of the discussion in this post, I must state: I am well-aware of the fact that Tolkien's myth was in a constant state of flux, and was ever-developing. If I am correct in my suggestions below (which is questionable in itself, of course) – they still reflect only my interpretation of Tolkien's thought aroung the late 1940s and early 1950s. I am pretty sure that as he was writing these chapters, he was not proceeding according to a planned-in-advance agenda; and I also know well that the character of Galadriel went further development. But still, I think this was the stage in which Tolkien considered thoroughly and systematically these three topics together.
In a letter to Naomi Mitchinson, written at 1954 (Letters no. 154), Tolkien wrote:
But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right… they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it… and so tried to stop its (Middle-earth's) change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasuance, even largely a desert, were they could be 'artists'…
This is quite a critical opinion of the Elves and their Rings – and especially of Galadriel, who had used Nenya, indeed arresting all change, and nearly stopping time altogether. It appears that Frodo's experience was not (as perceived by Tolkien in 1954) entirely wholesome; nor were Boromir's suspicions unfounded – indeed Galadriel was quite willing to sacrifice the rest of Middle-earth for her own agenda.
Does anybody rise in revolt?
This was "unnatural" – as far as this term could be applied to Elves. After all, in Cerin Amroth, Sam commented:
I thought that Elves were all for moon and stars: but this is more elvish than anything I ever heard tell of. I feel as if I was inside a song, if you take my meaning.
Which is innocent enough, but becomes a bit sinister when juxtaposed with Frodo's words here:
And I don't remember any moon, either new or old, in Caras Galadon: only stars by night and sun by day.
No moon at all. Again, this stands in stark contrast to Rivendell, where the midsummer moon is so important to the plot of The Hobbit.
Does this strike anybody as strange?
I find the absence of the moon in Lórien very significant. Compare to chapter 11 of The Silmarillion, Of the Sun and the Moon and the hiding of Valinor:
The Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory.
Keeping Elvendom alive and vibrant, has become at the price of banishing the Moon. Rivendell is the seat of memory of the Ancient Days; but in Lórien there is no need for memory – the Ancient Days are still living, or at least visually embalmed in there.
Thus, the very essence of Lórien is in a way a sign of defiance, even a continuation of the rebellion against the Valar. The means are no doubt different from those of Fëanor, but the underlying, fundamental sin is the same.
Perhaps Prof. Flieger is right, and part of the impetus for Tolkien's interest in Elves, and elvish time, was wish, and a consideration of the possibilities for rising above the fetters of time; but as writing progressed, and The Lord of the Rings became more of a "fundamentally religious and Catholic book" (according to Letter 142), he realized that this was a sinful wish (Prof. Shippey discussed this ambivalence in several places, see chapter 6 and 8 of The Road to Middle-earth). After all, it is said in Genesis 1:14 (taken from the King James translation):
And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.
Or is this going too far?
I think these considerations enhance the Temptation of Galadriel, and the strength of character, essential goodness, and (doubtlessly) Divine Grace needed for her to pass the test, renounce all that she had, diminish and go into the West.
As a final note – it appears that Celeborn was not a part of it all; and his reward was retaining this power of the moon, and cherishing the memory of the elves. Unlike his spouse, he was in love with Middle-earth, not just with the land he made his own. Galadriel had to leave immediately after the One Ring was destroyed and the power of the Three failed, and with her Lothlórien "went" – only Arwen's unmarked grave is there; but Celeborn:
…went to dwell there (in Rivendell) after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.
– Note on Shire Records, from the Prologue.
Finally, I have finished. Feel free to comment, praise, shrug, disagree, or pelt me with rotten tomatos.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 12 2015, 5:15pm
Post #5 of 36
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“Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute, and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. That's relativity.”
Albert Einstein
I read that Flieger essay, but got confused. Possibly Tolkien started out wanting Lorien to be a Faerieland that existed in completely different time. I imagine that would be a bit like the wardrobe to Narnia - an observer standing outside the wardrobe might see those Pevensie children go in, then come out again a moment later. This is different from what the children themselves observed - their adventures involved growing to adulthood, so it wasn't just a messed up perception of time (Narnia as a super-hot Einstein stove), it seems that time was objectively different.
Then a change of mind - things would be happening in the outside world during the Fellowship's time in Lorien. But the Fellowship certainly lose subjective track of time, as per Einstein's comment. So they now feel they've spent nearly a month in Lorien (by the moon, and by Tolkien's final timeline, which has them stay there January 25 - February 16).
Whether time is objectively different we don't now know - Frodo would have to have kept a tally of days experienced inside, and then compared notes with Gollum waiting outside. I don't think we hear they have any such discussion  , and in any case Frodo wasn't keeping count, I think. He was busy spending more than a hour with a pretty elf-queen, and nearly getting his face into hot water for a minute....
So the whole thing is a bit inconclusive. It seems to leave the discussion of how mortals experience time unresolved when it launches into how elves experience time.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 12 2015, 6:08pm
Post #6 of 36
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I must apologise for being so far behind schedule. I have tried this time to set both a plan, and a format, for this discussion; it seems that I have failed. I have excuses, if anybody is interested in them - both the bottom line is that I am late, and the rest of the discussion is not prepared yet. At the present, the most I can hope for is getting to the end of the chapter without infringing on squire's discussion next week.
Personally I would never criticize a discussion leader. They’re doing a great service and courtesy in leading and using a lot of their own free time in doing it. Of course occasionally real life gets in the way. Don't worry about it.
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
…suddenly Sam cried out. Only a few yards ahead dark shapes loomed up in the stream and he heard the swirl of racing water. There was a swift current which swung left, towards the eastern shore where the channel was clear. As they were swept aside the travellers could see, now very close, the pale foam of the River lashing against sharp rocks that were thrust out far into the stream like a ridge of teeth.
________________________________________
This is frightening! I have no firsthand experience of rapids, and am no waterman myself (Was Tolkien? Does anybody know?)
I was brought up to Oxford by car (then a novelty), together with L. K. Sands, by Dickie: in the October of that astonishing hot year 1911, and we found every one in flannels boating on the river. Punts were then as strange to me as camels; but I later learned to manage them.
-Letter #254
Tolkien would hire a punt each year when his children were young and the family would go on punting expeditions up and down the Cherwell, passing University Parks and beside the long, thin manmade island called Mesopotamia. Mesopotamia is named from the Greek meaning ‘between the rivers’, referring to the area in modern-day Iraq between the Tigris and Euphrates rivers. To reach the upper, quieter part of the river Cherwell, which Tolkien liked, the family would take the punt up the roller ramp called Parson’s Pleasure but the ladies in the punt may have had to avert their eyes as Oxford dons were allowed to sunbathe in the nude on this section of the river in those days.
-Robert S. Blackman, The J.R.R. Tolkien Miscellany
so I need to ask a few ignorant questions:
Is this current to the left natural?
Yes. Indeed, all things equal the river will keep digging out the eastern bank and settling out debris on the west. Rivers just about always are slowly changing course in some way or other.
Looking at the Map (although it is on a large scale, so obviously local conditions vary) it seems the river is in the middle of a gentle loop to the east. Shouldn't the current carry the boats to the right?
Just the opposite. Picture how race cars tend to bunch up on the outside of a curve.
Would the current be strong and turbulent enough to carry them from the western side, where they would presumably prefer to steer, to the eastern?
Yes.
Or did they drift to the middle of the river or beyond, without anybody noticing?
That too.
I get that Sam sees the sharp rocks suddenly. But shouldn't the current quicken some time before the rapids?
Perhaps. But usually the obstructions that cause the rapids will actually build up a “pillow” of calm water that may even slow the boat down before it hits the rapids.
Are boats (and these are elven-boats!) who near rapids swept aside so suddenly,…
Depends on the depth of their keel. If no keel, the boat can begin spinning.
… or should Aragorn in the leading boat have noticed this before?
Possibly. Sounds of the rapids and/or the speed of the current changing (faster or slower) would provide clues.
Why is it Boromir who shouts instructions?
Given the Great River flows right though Gondor and right by Minas Tirith he’d be more river knowledgable.
Is he panicky, or is he assuming the leadership, while Aragorn is in a state of shock?
Somebody needs to take charge and give orders.
At Caradhras too, it was Boromir who twice saved the Fellowship – first by his suggestions to bring firewood with them, and then by clearing the path through the wall of snow.
Shouldn't Aragorn be the most capable in coping with natural challenges?
He’s thinking too much. As he will discover at Amon Hen, he makes his best decisions listening to his heart.
Or is Boromir simply at his best when fighting losing battles?
Presently, Boromir has the better tactical instincts. Don’t worry. Aragorn will soon come into his own.
Legolas calles the enemy Yrch, and Gimli Orcs. In a few pages, Sam will call them "those cursed goblins"
Is this a sign of the disintegration of the Fellowship, or simply an indication of the diversity of its members – and thus a good sign?
What’s in a name? That which we call an orc by any other name will still split your gizzard.
What do you think of Sam's suggestion that this is Gollum's doing?
Gollum was hiding in the reeds making a sound like a Fellowship!
Would having the boats founder in the rapids serve Gollum's purpose in any way?
It’s Deagol finding the ring all over again, only this time it’s Smeagol doing Deagol's diving.
And based on what happens in the next page, isn't the Winged Messenger a more likely suspect?
Or maybe even though there was a chance of them “slipping through, unseen by any eyes on the eastern shore”, that wasn’t really the way to bet.
The arrows nearly hit them: Frodo is hit in the mithril-coat (how lucky, to score a direct hit at the one person who is adequately armoured!); Aragorn gets an arrow in his hood, and a third hits near Merry.
This must be compared with The Bridge of Khazad-dúm:
_______________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
Arrows fell among them. One struck Frodo and sprung back. Another pierced Gandalf's hat and stuck there like a black feather.
________________________________________
This shows in a quite convincing way that Aragorn is Gandalf's heir, doesn't it?
Or else a reference to the 1902 adventure novel The Four Feathers by British writer A. E. W. Mason that also has a hero wandering around doing good deeds in disguise.
Or do you wish Tolkien would be a bit less repetetive?
I could read, re-read, and re-re-read Tolkien all day.
Tolkien suggests they weren't hit because of the attributes of either the boats, or the elven-cloaks.
Which was it?
Yes.
And what do you think of Tolkien's hint – is it subtle enough, or too subtle, for your taste?
Tolkien and ambiguity go together like fish and chips, and just as delicious.
Legolas is the first to spring ashore, stringing the bow and fitting an arrow.
Half a second! (time for another ignorant question) Are bows usually unstrung?
Depends on the archer, the bow, and/or the string. Bows and/or strings can break during stringing, so some archers leave them strung. But leaving a bow strung can lead to deformation of the wood. But this is a high quality string and bow so neither concern really applies. A possible reason could be that The Elf is worried that with all the hobbits around, one might play with his bow when he’s not looking. Dry-firing (pulling and releasing the string without an arrow loaded) can cause the bow to explode (yes, really) and cause significant physical injury or even death to the idiot doing it.
What do you make of the similarity?
There's a bit of Dwarf in The Elf, and a bit of Elf in The Dwarf.
Hold on! In Three is Company, Frodo identifies Gildor and his company as high-elves because they speak the name of Elbereth! How does Legolas dare invoke her?
Frodo doesn’t know everything about Elves. However, Tolkien does.
'Shrill went the arrow from the elven-string'. Isn't this a strange use of the word 'shrill'?
It’s a philological pun. An arrow is said to give a whistle when flying through the air. A whistle is "a shrill noise". The word “shrill” is from the German word for “piercing”, and piercing is exactly what Legolas’ arrow did to its target.
In the drafts, Legolas shoots from the boat in mid-stream – an even more remarkable feat!
Was this changed because it was too remarkable?
Tolkien also cut where Legolas shoots while waterskiing behind the boat. Writers tend to go nuts when it comes to Legolas.
Or do you think this improved the story?
Sure.
How?
It shows Elves are special, and Hero Elves are even specialer, and Legolas is the specialest.
And a last question for this thread – the winged shape is hit while flying in mid-air; it came from the eastern bank, and was flying westward with great speed. It is hit when directly above them – i.e. already above the western bank. Yet it falls out of the air, 'vanishing down into the gloom of the eastern shore'.
Given its tremendous momentum - even if it did swerve when it was hit, wouldn't it fall into the western bank?
I assume it was looking for a friendly landing field as preferable to crashing in enemy territory..
******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 12 2015, 7:42pm
Post #7 of 36
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Quick shot… No rotten tomatoes
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On the other hand - if Gwaihir indeed 'works for' Gandalf, why didn't the wizard try to catch up with them? On Feb. 17 Gandalf is taken to Lorien by Gwaihir.
On Feb. 23 the Fellowship is attacked N. of Sarn Gebir.
As Gwaihir says, “Light as a swan’s feather in my claw you are. The Sun shines through you. . . were I to let you fall, you would float upon the wind.”
--The White Rider As Gandalf’s body was mortal would he still be in the healing process from this desecrated body? Does it seem reasonable that a mere six days would not be enough time for him to be up to snuff and get back in the fray, and find the remaining Fellowship?
I believe he probably walked to Fangorn starting on about the 21st or 22nd: He loved to walk – spent many a year afoot; Lorien wasn’t known for horses – we know of no horse he rode besides Shadowfax - as Gandalf the White; he wasn’t flown by Gwaihir because of the “three ride limit” rule; and his mortal body needed some exercise and building-up.
But did Gandalf then make it to Fangorn on Feb. 26th, a mere 9 days after being taken to Lorien? I think – yes, as he “strove with the Dark Tower” and spoke (telepathically) to Frodo on this date from a “high place” – “Take it off fool!” Also he sees Treebeard on the 27th.
Thus it seems Gandalf would be hard pressed to find and catch up with the Company at the point and date in question… Just not enough time?
*Oh! I think I may have sneaked "off chapter" - sorry sador! 
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 12 2015, 7:46pm
Post #8 of 36
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Who could travel faster than light.
She left home one day
In a relative way
And returned on the previous night.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 14 2015, 9:58am
Post #9 of 36
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Yes - bows are kept unstrung when not in use. (At least it's 'yes' in my experience, when I did target archery for a few years as a teenager: I'd be glad to have my answer corrected or extended by anyone who knows more!).
The process of stringing and unstringing a longbow is very quick and simple - it's like this video (1 minute) - https://youtu.be/DbgW7XwJZT4 A practised archer can string and unstring a bow in an instant.
I never did ask why we always strung bows just before use and unstrung them afterwards. But I think I know. The bow is under a reasonable amount of tension just from being strung. I think that if you left it strung, you'd stretch the string and possibly train the bow itself into a slight curve. These would be bad things to happen, because they would cost you range and possibly accuracy. Moreover I suppose there's the risk that your string snaps. And then you've gone from having a most fearsome handheld missile weapon to having a stick.
Campaigning archers had a further problem of keeping the strings in good condition despite bad weather. If I recall the bowmen of Henry V's Anglo-welsh army at Agincourt unstrung their bows during the rain that fell before the battle and stored the strings away (inside your hat was traditional in the version I heard). Keeping the strings dry stopped them from stretching - again that's important because a stretched string would give you less power. That means less range and less chance of killing/disabling your target, and both will affect your survival chances in a battle. The fibres of a wet bowstring might also swell, making the arrow come off less cleanly, again costing range and perhaps accuracy.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 14 2015, 10:34am
Post #10 of 36
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I really intend to return to all of your (and other people's) answers, and respond when I can - and I still owe your a response for your previous chapter's discussion.
But at the moment, whatever free time I can find now is spent in trying to get the next post in time.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 14 2015, 10:39am
Post #11 of 36
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a mighty shot in the dark, my friend
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Why do you think Gimli begins with praising the bow of Galadriel? Is this mere courtesy? A sign of his infatuation with her? Or simply, as he will be addressing Legolas, he opens by praising others?
I'm going to choose...all of those!
The bow is clearly a superior piece of the bowyer's craft - as the 'shadow' reminds Gimli of the balrog, he may be also remembering Legolas' 'small bow' . Thank goodness that Legolas has something with greater range.
I can also have fun imagining that the bow is semi-sentient or has other unusual properties, though I don't really see anything in the text to support that, it would be just me having fun.
Anything connected with Galadriel is of course wonderful in Gimli's eyes.
And, I think you're right - by directing some of the praise towards the equipment, he manages to slip his friend a compliment without it being embarrassing.
It's clearly a magnificent shot, requiring not only strength to shoot so far, but also the skill to judge a moving, hard-to-see target.
But is it hard for Legolas to see? This relates to the question "What do you make of this difference? Is there some reason why the Elf and Dwarf would be more dismayed by the Balrog, but mortals by a Ringwraith?" I'm wondering here whether Legolas sees a shadow, or whether he's more able to see into the wraith-world than his mortal colleagues, & if so whether he can see the target more clearly.
I did (if I remember) pick up as a reader that the Company had seen a flying nazgul - Frodo does hint as much pretty clearly. I've never been too sure about how come this, and the orcs etc. have come to be here.
Is it a routine patrol, or a force on some other errand which has encountered the Fellowship by luck? Plenty of historical military encounters have occurred because opposing forces ended up in the same place, without one side being there to intercept the other (as Darkstone has previously pointed out!)
Or have forces been sent to watch the river (or even set an ambush at this point) to interrupt traffic generally, or to try and catch the Fellowship specifically?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 14 2015, 10:54am
Post #13 of 36
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'We don't allow people from Bright here', said the bartender. A lady walks into a bar. //
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~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 14 2015, 11:52am
Post #14 of 36
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I realised that I missed an important point here
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(sorry about that - I'm dipping in & out & picking off points. The drawback is that your OP could have done with a more thoughtful, synthesised response)
"Elbereth Gilthoniel!' sighed Legolas as he looked up"
- A prayer, presumably? Does it go with the odd way in which Legolas is seen by Frodo:
"Frodo looked up at the Elf standing tall above him, as he gazed into the night, seeking a mark to shoot at. His head was dark, crowned with sharp white stars that glittered in the black pools of the sky behind… A sudden dread fell on the Company."
That's something which I have always missed in the excitement of the writing BTW - thanks for pointing it out!!)
It looks to me that a reader wanting to imagine that Legolas' shot is divinely assisted has material to back this claim....
Shrill went the arrow from the elven-string'?
If you're next to the bowman when he or she looses, it sounds like this - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwdmdpnxOH8 I can hear some shrill sounds in there - you get a sort of whistle from the departing arrow.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 15 2015, 7:05pm
Post #15 of 36
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“I see it—coming here—hell-wind—titan blur—black wings—Yog-Sothoth save me—the three-lobed burning eye. . . .”
-HP Lovecraft, The Haunter of the Dark, 1935
Why do you think Gimli begins with praising the bow of Galadriel?
Lockbearer.
Is this mere courtesy?
Courtly love.
A sign of his infatuation with her?
A Knight takes every opportunity to extol and praise his Lady. I’m surprised Gimli isn’t doing it in couplets.
Or simply, as he will be addressing Legolas, he opens by praising others?
Courtly love ennobles the Knight, thus generating courtesy and courtliness not just to his Lady, but to all.
Seeing that Gimli is reminded of the Balrog, it is worthwhile to compare to The Bridge of Khazad-dúm:
________________________________________ Quote ________________________________________
Legolas turned and set an arrow to the string, though it was a long shot for his small bow. He drew, but his hand fell, and the arrow dropped to the ground. He gave a cry of dismay and fear.
________________________________________
Was Gimli simply reminded of the situation and contrasted Legolas' abilities in both situations?[
But if we compare the two, I note that while Legolas and Gimli seemed utterly unmanned (well, you know what I mean), Aragorn and Boromir were not; but here, Legolas confidently shoots at the unknown enemy, while A sudden dread fell on [the rest of] the Company! (For instance, Boromir doesn't even blow his horn)
What do you make of this difference?
'I also will come,' said Legolas, 'for I do not fear the Dead.'
-The Passing of the Grey Company
The company halted, and there was not a heart among them that did not quail, unless it were the heart of Legolas of the Elves, for whom the ghosts of Men have no terror.
-ibid
(But then by inference the hearts of Elladan and Elrohir did quail, so there would seem to be something special about The Elf. Perhaps the bow with the hair and spirits of the Galadhrim?)
Or perhaps simply because was still a young Elf and the light of Aman was not yet dimmed in their eyes. ( -Of the Return of the Noldor, Quenta Silmarillion, and yeah, I know Legolas wasn’t a Noldor, but that wasn’t my point.)
Is there some reason why the Elf and Dwarf would be more dismayed by the Balrog, but mortals by a Ringwraith?
For The Elf, Elves are spirits, Balrogs are spirits, while Ringwraiths, for all their terror, are still ghosts of Men.
Dwarves do seem to be affected by ghosts of Men (His knees shook, and he was wroth with himself. –The Passing of the Grey Company) and by Ringwraiths ('At that his breath came like the hiss of snakes, and all who stood by shuddered...’ –The Council of Elrond), but really, I wager beginning as a wee lad Gimli was regularly scared sheetless by bedtime stories of Smaug the Golden and Durin’s Bane.
Well, I have given the answer to Legolas' question. Here it is still a mystery; the answer is given opaquely by Uglúk in The Uruk-hai (if we know the Nazgûl which Grishnákh is speaking about is a Ringwraith), and explicitly by Gandalf in The White Rider.
But did you guess when you first read it?
I was thinking maybe it was the Balrog flying around searching for them.
Did Frodo's sudden feeling cold in his shoulder point out the answer?
It was a clue.
And did you connect it with the extraordinary shadow which passed 'over the high stars' in The Ring Goes South?
I was thinking flying polyps, and half-expecting “colossal footprints made up of five circular toe-marks” to show up on the riverbank. (See “The Shadow Out of Time, by HP Lovecraft.) Or maybe Nyarlathotep.
What do you think was its function here – was it just reconnoitering along the River?
It felt a disturbance in The Force.
Did it somehow sense the Ring?
“I sense something, a presence I've not felt since the slopes of Orodruin…" -Episode IV: A New Shadow
Or was it a part of a co-ordination between Sauron and Saruman – sent to bring Grishnákh to a rendezvous with the raiding Uruk-hai?
Possibly.
The last suggestion seems reasonable, seeing that Uglúk knew of the Nazgûl's fate. But it contradicts Gandalf's assertion that Saruman knew nothing of the Winged Messenger.
I’m thinking any contact was kept between lower level functionaries, like, say, MOS and Grima, so as to maintain plausible deniability.
Was Gandalf simply mistaken, based on his knowing nothing of the palantír?
Gandalf may not be right sometimes, but he’s never wrong.
To which might be added Gwaihir's apparent missing of the Nazgûl landing Grishnákh on the other side of the River.
Frankly I don’t think an eagle-eyed Eagle could have missed the sound of Grishnákh’s screams, much less the odor of his excitement.
Or was he right, and Sauron sent his faithful servant to intercept the raid which he knew of?
I’m still thinking someone lower level sent the Nazgul, like maybe the Spleen of Sauron.
Speaking of Gwaihir – do you think the Winged Messenger was aware of the Eagle nearby?
I’m pretty sure he/she/it had his/her/its hands/claws/tentacles full with Grishnakh.
By the way, from the responses to a previous thread, it appears that not all readers remember that the eagle is Gwaihir. Gandalf says so specifically in The White Rider, saying that he sent him to gather news.
On the other hand - if Gwaihir indeed 'works for' Gandalf, why didn't the wizard try to catch up with them?
Gandalf seemed still pretty unsteady. In his state he’d likely have strayed out of thought and time and Gwaihir’s back a couple of thousand feet straight down.
The comparison with the Balrog is very interesting.
Gimli calls the Balrog 'The Shadow of Moria', as if that was its essence; and indeed, before it kindled it was just:
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…like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form.
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This comparison goes pretty far, seeing that the Ringwraithes, too, are just shadows. But this seems to be the essence of the Enemy! After all (an idea I first read in Prof. Shippey's books), the Verse of the Rings speaks of "Mordor where the shadows lie" which is a perfectly regular simile, sinister enough in itself. But in The Fall of Gil-Galad (which Sam recites on Weathertop), there is a slight variation:
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For into darkness fell his star,
In Mordor where the shadows are.
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What does 'are' mean?
It’s a philological pun. “Are” is from the Indo-European root meaning “to move”, so Mordor is where shadows move, have volition, all those things we fear when we see spooky shadows in the dark.
Had this been just 'where the shadows lie',…
Which is yet another pun, for the shadows of Mordor, Sauron’s creations, are mere mockeries, or “lies” of real things.
… it would have been a simple echo of the Verse of the Rings. But (unless, of course, Bilbo mistranslated) the word 'are' might carry a double meaning – indicating that in the land of Mordor the shadows somehow are real, and tangible.
GMTA.
So it is with the Ringwraithes – and maybe with the Balrog two?
Shadow and flame.
Was the only difference between the Balrog and the Ringwraithes that the Balrog was a hot shadow, while the wraithes are (as Frodo says) simply colder?
I take Balrogs as mockeries made by Morgoth, whereas Ringwraiths are mockeries made by themselves.
To put it in a different context – when debating the Balrog's wings, it is often contended that they were simply wings of shadow.
Or shadows of wings.
But if what I've written above is true, weren't they just as real as the rest of it?
Would Tolkien’s assertion 'I cordially dislike allegory in all its manifestations’ extend to Book VII of Plato’s Republic?
It seems that Frodo figures out exactly what the Winged Messenger was. Why didn't he name it?
'Do not speak of such things!' said Strider quickly, and with surprising earnestness. (Well, excuuuse me!)
Was it out of simple reluctance to name the Devil, like in Minas Tirith Sauron's name is never mentioned?
Yeah, except when it is.
An internal refusal to face the facts?
To paraphrase Matthew Harrison Brady from Inherit the Wind (1960): “I do not speak about things I do not speak about.”
A realization how desperate an undertaking it would be now, to leave the Fellowship alone?
Or a realization how much safer he’d be without them:
There is little or no magic about them, except the ordinary everyday sort which helps them to disappear quietly and quickly when large stupid folk like you and me come blundering along, making a noise like elephants which they can hear a mile off.
-An Unexpected Party
Or does he still plan to do so, but is sure that if they know what new calamity is above they won't let him?
After he was caught out the last time obviously he’s learned to keep his thoughts to himself:
’We have constantly heard you muttering: "Shall I ever look down into that valley again, I wonder", and things like that.’
-A Conspiracy Unmasked
Apart of Frodo (and possibly Merry), Boromir is the one member of the Fellowship who should guess what the Messenger is. Well, the others too, had they paid sufficient attention to his words at the Council of Elrond:
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Some said that it could be seen, like a great black horseman, a dark shadow under the moon. Wherever he came a madness filled our foes, but fear fell on our boldest…
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'A dark shadow under the moon' – this is quite the same description, and the reactions of friend and foe are the same. I would call that a dead giveaway. But the others seem not to get it! As is made clear by Legolas' question to Gandalf in The White Rider.
Do you think Aragorn didn't guess, too?
RETRO: Flight, they're still shallowing a bit up there. Do you want to tell them?
Gene Kranz: Anything we can do about it?
RETRO: Not now, Flight.
Gene Kranz: Then they don't need to know, do they?
RETRO: Copy that.
-Apollo 13 (1995)
Or was he simply not saying anything, like he said nothing about Gollum?
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.
-Proverbs 17:28
On the other hand, in the debate in the next chapter, shouldn’t he have said anything had he guessed?
He seems to have trouble enough with what he *knows*.
So regarding Boromir – what was he trying to get from Frodo?
Same thing he’s been trying to get ever since he left from Minas Tirith: information.
A reassurance that he shared his guess?
Confirmation of intelligence is good too.
Was he just trying to read his mind, in some sort of clumsy imitation of Galadriel?
He’s Captain-General of Gondor, a great leader of Men. One common aspect of such is the ability to read body language.
(In which case, how good is Frodo in concealing his mind?)
Concealing his mind is one thing, concealing his nervousness is another. Boromir found Frodo easily enough at Amon Hen. Frodo might just as well have left him a note.
Or was he trying to reach out to him, to attain some sort of rapport, in order to persuade Frodo to listen to his counsel?
As he’ll do later, alone with him.
******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 15 2015, 9:12pm
Post #16 of 36
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I'm with you on the description being a little confusing. On every reading, I stop and think, "Wait, how did it wind up on the east side if it was right above them?"
And I agree also about the arrows striking people as a little too reminiscent of Moria. I'm sure it's one of those details Tolkien missed in the revision or he would have caught it; it's pretty rare for him to be so repetitive.
I suupose I wonder why Lorien is better at making bows than Mirkwood Elves are, and is Mirkwood superior to Lorien in anything? Is Lorien more advanced because of the presence of Galadriel and Celeborn alone, or do they have Noldor and/or Sindar in their retinue with advanced weapon--making skills from Beleriand's wars?
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 16 2015, 7:11pm
Post #17 of 36
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"Strange stars amid the gloam."
[In reply to]
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They throw in Drummer Hodge, to rest
Uncoffined -- just as found:
His landmark is a kopje-crest
That breaks the veldt around:
And foreign constellations west
Each night above his mound.
Young Hodge the drummer never knew --
Fresh from his Wessex home --
The meaning of the broad Karoo,
The Bush, the dusty loam,
And why uprose to nightly view
Strange stars amid the gloam.
Yet portion of that unknown plain
Will Hodge for ever be;
His homely Northern breast and brain
Grow to some Southern tree,
And strange-eyed constellations reign
His stars eternally.
-Drummer Hodge, by Thomas Hardy (1899)
Sam is making an interesting assumption about the moon supposed to be the same everywhere. I won't go off a limb, and ask how much of modern science is based on a similar unproven, though intuitive, assumption;…
See Kurt Gödel's incompleteness theorems.
… suffice it to say that perhaps he was paying attention in the Council, and drew the right conclusion from Aragorn's statement that in Rhûn and Harad the stars are strange.
But why is he the only one to notice the strange moon?
Obviously he’s a “moon gardener”. No doubt a long subscriber to “The Old Farmer’s Almanac”. Probably always has their moon phase planting calendar up on his wall.
Did everybody else understand it?
If they’re gardeners. That is, no.
Or is this simply the natural choice of a mouthpiece on Tolkien's side, seeing that it should be a curious hobbit, and in this chapter the most loquacious of hobbits is Sam?
“To be a gardener is to believe in tomorrow,” and that’s Sam’s job up until the very end.
Or should we put it down to the fact that as a gardener, Sam should be in touch with nature the most, and would be the one to be bothered by the wandering moon?
Frankly “Wandering Moon” was not only bothersome, it was downright disturbing! (Wait. You’re not talking about the Fallout 3/My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic crossover by Ed2481 where The Lone Wanderer meets Princess Luna? Er, forget I mentioned it….)
________________________________________ In Reply To ________________________________________
'And perhaps that was the way of it' said Frodo. 'In that land, maybe, we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by. It was not until Silverlode bore us back to Anduin that we returned to the time that flows through mortal lands to the Great Sea. And I don't remember any moon, either new or old, in Caras Galadon: only stars by night and sun by day.'
________________________________________
As Tom Shippey puts it (Author of the Century, p. 90):
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Frodo agrees with him, and suggests that in Lothlórien they had entered a world beyond time. But Legolas the elf offers a deeper explanation, not from a human point of view but from an elvish.
________________________________________
Loth would I be to argue with Shippey; but does Frodo indeed agree with Sam? There seems to be a world of difference between ‘time did not count in there’ and ‘a time that has elsewhere long gone by’.
Yes. In the one time is discountinuous from our own while in the other there is still exists some reference to our own (times of future, past, long gone by.)
Shippey is concerned mainly with Tolkien as a philologist and mediævalist; he uses Legolas’ words to explain the legends of time standing still for the mortal in Elfland – of time standing still while one is sojourning there, as in Smith of Wootton Major, on the one hand, and of centuries passing by as one stands bewitched, as in the story of Thingol and Melian (recently, an essay was published in which Tolkien himself discusses this duality; the relevant part was quoted here).
“O aching time! O moments big as years!"
- John Keats, Hyperion
Legolas says:
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Nay, time does not tarry ever, but change and growth is not in all things and places alike. For the Elves the world moves, and it moves both very swift and very slow. Swift, because they themselves change
Before proceeding, do you have any comment to make on Legolas’ words? I, personally, love the ‘ripples ever repeated in the long long stream‘.
All things move and nothing remains still, and you cannot step twice into the same stream.
-Plato quoting Heraclitus in Cratylus
An interesting (at least to me) note: in The Treason of Isengard, p. 366, Christopher Tolkien admits:
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The phrase as my father wrote it was 'because they need not count the running years', but in copying I missed out the word
"need". Looking through my copy, but without consulting his own manuscript, he wrote in "do", and "do" survives in FR.
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On which Verlyn Flieger comments (A Question of Time, page 99):
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The difference is minor, but "need" might have conveyed more precisely the options of the Elves in the matter of time.
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Do you agree with Prof. Flieger?
No.
I would suggest that "need" conveys the feelings that for ordinary elves (such as the Mirkwood elves, whom Legolas represents), counting the years is a superfluity, only to be bothered about by those involved in high politics. This is not so much a matter of ‘options’ open to the elves, but of the luxury to “fritter and waste the years in an off-hand way”.
Yes, need = necessity. It is not necessary for home-bound Elves to count the years (But if they don’t how can they garden?), but it is necessary that those involved in the outside world to do so.
And even Christopher’s account, plausible as it is, appears to be no more than a guess that had he copied the manuscript properly, the word "need" would have been in the printed version. But seeing that it wasn’t, his father wrote "do" instead. Possibly; but this might have been not so much a regrettable omission on his side, as a fortunate one. After all, upon noticing the missing verb, JRRT did not choose to consult the manuscript (or did, and then rejected the original), and put in "do".
Might this choice of word not indicate a subtle shift in Tolkien’s approach – maybe towards Legolas, who has become a much more important person than he was at first? Or perhaps in his approach to the elves?
I think it may have been, like with irredeemable orcs, sparked by a growing theological concern with the subjective idea of time of Kant and Leibniz (time is dependent on Man), contrasted with the objective idea of time of Clarke and Newton (time is dependent on God).
By which I mean, even if we accept Prof. Flieger’s opinion that according to the original reading, the elves had an option to ‘step outside time’, as it were –
A world without time is a world without God:
I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: thy years are throughout all generations.
Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.
They shall perish, but thou shalt endure: yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; as a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed:
But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
-Psalm 102:24-27
…the second reading precludes it, only stating that the Elves choose to ignore the passing of time, preferring to live in a never-never land.
To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven
- Ecclesiastes 3:1
In A Question of Time, Prof. Flieger advances a different approach from Shippey’s, regarding elvish time. She makes the claim that Tolkien was a part of a movement, which took a special interest in the experience of time, asking questions about relativity and time-travel – as in Tolkien and Lewis’ famous ‘deal’ which lead to Lewis’ space trilogy on one hand, and the aborted The Lost Road and The Notion Club Papers on the other.
One wonders the real reason Tolkien abandoned it.
So while Shippey focuses on Legolas’ answer, and seems to consider it a sufficient answer, Flieger turns her attention to the mortal experience. She sees a noticeable variance between Frodo and Sam’s words, and even sets up Aragorn for a third, with his reply:
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But so it is, Sam: in that land you lost your count. There time flowed swiftly by us, as for the Elves. The old moon passed, and a new moon waxed and waned in the world outside, while we tarried there. And yestereve a new moon came again. Winter is nearly gone. Time flows on to a spring of little hope.
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This is not the right place, and I am not the right person, to present Prof. Flieger’s theory and either laud or take issue with it. I love Aragorn’s final words, and may return to them in a further thread.
But as a regular reader, do you see anything fundamentally different in Aragorn’s words?
It was the best of times, it was the worst of times; it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness; it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity; it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness; it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair; we had everything before us, we had nothing before us; we were all going directly to Heaven, we were all going the other way.
-Charles Dickens, A Tale of Two Cities
To reinforce her thesis, Prof. Flieger cites a few dramatic excerpts from the relvant chapters in HoME vol. 7, The Treason of Isengard. On page 368, in which Christopher Tolkien compares three different timelines his father worked with, the second timeline includes the following entry:
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Jan. 14 – Over Silverlode. Time ceases.
Jan. 15 – Leave Lórien.
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This seems to disprove Shippey’s reading, does it not? If time really ceases, then it is not just a matter of a different perception.
Space and time are products (but primitive products) of our own imagination; hence, they are generated (geschaffene) intuitions in that the subject affects itself.
-Immanuel Kant
Tolkien intended this to be the return to normal time – however, he stopped in his tracks, writing to himself (Treason, p. 286):
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This won't do – if Lórien is timeless, for then nothing will have happened since they entered.
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Time is what prevents everything from happening at once. Space is what prevents everything from happening to me!
-Legendary physicist John Archibald Wheeler, who coined the terms "black hole", “geon”, and “quantum foam”. (“There is no such thing as emptiness. There is only quantum foam.”)
And if I may presume to add, Legolas' words lamenting coming to Lórien in winter seem all wrong.
Sometimes Winter is more than just a season, it is a state of mind. Tolkien’s Lorien is more subtle than Lewis’ Narnia.
However, he had already written (or at least, conceived) the story of Sam realizing the nature of 'elvish time' by the stages of the moon, so he went the other way – making the time go by in the outside world, while in Lórien it went slow.
As a side-note – this change necessitated maked Gandalf's fight with the Balrog longer, and more momentous; and he could no longer defeat the Balrog and escape, but had to return from death after a month. More than that, the tumults Haldir reported could no longer be Gandalf's final battle with the Balrog, but his return to life, so it was set to be on February 14th, the day of the Mirror of Galadriel.
This might have been just a coincidence; but seeing that he returned to life on the very same time she had finally faced the ultimate test, and passed it, makes a strange juxtaposition:
Might she have seen with Frodo him wandering in the Mirror, but interpreted the vision correctly, and this helped her pass it?
Since she’d much desired to speak with Gandalf I’d think she’d postpone letting the Fellowship go until she did.
Conversely, could this have hastened her to brings the matter to a crisis (if we see her as manipulating Frodo to offer her the Ring)?
I’ve always seen Galadriel as being taken completely off guard by Frodo offering her the ring.
Or was it the other way round – that once she had passed the test, Eru had decided to send Gandalf back?
I’d think it’s not Elves or even Hobbits who’d have to pass Eru’s test (if any) but Men. And between Aragorn and Boromir it’s a split decision.
Yes, this is a repeat of the question nowizardme asked recently. And my answer is: I do not know, but I think the two events are connected somehow, beyond the mere needs of the new plotline.
If there is one, the key is Frodo. Frodo proves Gandalf’s judgment and instincts about hobbits, the Ringbearer, the Ringquest, etc. was pretty spot on, so Eru decides to leave him in the game.
Returning to the main theme: once Tolkien had the time in Lórien go slow rather than fast, Frodo's words "we were in a time that has elsewhere long gone by" make sense. But then see his response to Legolas:
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'But the wearing is slow in Lórien,' said Frodo. 'The power of the Lady is on it. Rich are the hours, though short they seem, where Galadriel wields the Elven-ring.'
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Rich are the hours, though short they seem – and in fact, many more hours pass everywhere else. Confused? So am I.
Drop by the Musée Condé in Chantilly, France and take a look at the most famous illuminated book of hours, the 15th century “Très Riches Heures du Duc de Berry”. Talk about rich hours! (“riches heures”). Interestingly, many books of hours were given as wedding presents from husbands to their brides, which hints that Celeborn may have had more to do with the “rich hours” of Lothlorien than Tolkien lets on.
If either Shippey or Flieger is right, Legolas' answer should be final; but Frodo's words seem to express dissent. This is not a matter of elvish time as opposed to mortal time, but something specific to Lórien. Compare this to his experience upon entering the Naith:
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As soon as he (Frodo) had set foot upon the far bank of Silverlode a strange feeling had come upon him, and it had deepened as he walked on into the Naith: it seemed to him that he had stepped over a bridge of time into a corner of the Elder Days, and was now walking in a world that was no more. In Rivendell there was memory of ancient things; in Lórien the ancient things still lived in the waking world.
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Well, this explains his words of "a time that has elsewhere long gone by"!
The contrast to Rivendell is also striking; but in Rivendell time clearly counts. However, it does have the same effect on Bilbo, if a bit diluted:
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They stayed long in that good house, fourteen days at least, and they found it hard to leave. Bilbo would gladly have stopped there for ever and ever…
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– A Short Rest.
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'How long do you think I shall have here?' said Frodo to Bilbo when Gandalf had gone.
'Oh, I don't know. I can't count days in Rivendell,' said Bilbo. 'But quite long, I should think…'
________________________________________
– The Ring Goes South.
It might be that Rivendell is not quite the same, and Lórien is the only place in which mortals can experience Elfland. Indeed, Aragorn calls Cerin Amroth "the heart of Elvendom on earth". But taking this as a cue, one might make a distinction (like Flieger does, but a different one) between Frodo and Sam.
Sam noticed something odd at Cerin Amroth, which we will return to below. But Frodo was complety engulfed:
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When he had gone and passed again into the outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlórien.
_______________________________________
I would say that while Sam was a puzzled observer, Frodo was somehow sucked into Elvendom. Whether it was Bilbo's teaching, Gildor or Elrond's blessing, being the ring-bearer or passing through the harrowing experience of near-death by the Morgúl-blade, I cannot say. Galadriel attributed his ability to see her Ring to his being a Ring-bearer himself; did that make him more receptive to the effects of her Ring?
And thus she more susceptible to the One Ring.
What do you think?
The ring allows Frodo to see beyond the veil, so I suppose it allows him (and Bilbo) to experience more of Rivendell and Lothlorien, like how supposedly a special ticket can get one into the secret places of Disneyland, like the basketball court within the top of Matterhorn mountain, the private suite in the upper levels of Cinderella Castle, and Club 33, the secret VIP lounge in New Orleans Square.
I actually wonder, whether Frodo the wanderer of the Shire could still 'walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlórien' after the Ring was destroyed, and Nenya failed. In which case, this strengthens my response to the question raised by Judith Klinger's essay, which we've discussed here. Once the Ring has gone, so did Lothlórien, Frodo the wanderer of the Shire became houseless, and the world was cold and empty.
Do you agree?
I’d suppose there would be a process of fading, like how an incandescent filament still glows a bit after the electric current is turned off.
Could he be healed of this kind of bereavement in Tol Eresëa?
Some wounds never heal, but they can become manageable.
One possible sign that the Ring might have been at work here, is Frodo's blurting out the idea of Galadriel as a Ring-bearer. While this seems an obvious conclusion, once you know the power with which the Three are endowed (we don't really, except from what we read about Lothlórien) – Aragorn rebukes him:
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That should not have been said outside Lórien, not even to me.
________________________________________
Why not?
I’m thinking Aragorn has an evil twin somewhere, probably named Nrogara. Doubtless wears a goatee.
Is this a matter of some mystical avoiding of speaking of what is hidden, similar to Frodo's not naming the Black Rider in the air?
That too.
(which, by the way, Sam did in the marshes).
And the next thing you know there’s Black Riders at Bree, more Black Riders at Weathertop, and even more Black Riders at the Ford! Coincidence? I think not!! Sam, you dunderhead!!!
Or is this a real concern that some enemies might be listening?
Loose lips sink cockle ships.
After all, they did discuss their possible future courses pretty openly.
Or does Aragorn fear that one of the Company might give the secret away?
That’s exactly why Aragorn’s been avoiding every inn since The Prancing Pony.
For that matter, do you think that Gimli or Boromir overheard Frodo's words?]
How do we know that’s the *real* Boromir?
And had this been said inside Lórien – what then?
An Elf would swear to keep the secret for a thousand years, but blab it the next day cause they couldn’t tell time.
Would the Lady have overheard and prevented them from leaving, say by turning Sam into a toad and filling the garden with snakes?
If time doesn’t pass how do they know when to leave? Gad, throwing parties must be tedious! And pubs: “It’s always 5’oclock somewhere, especially here!”
If Frodo is correct, and Lórien is a special case because of Galadriel using her Ring in a way Elrond did not – the passing of time in the 'heart of Elvendom on earth' becomes connected with the issue of the Rings of Power; and this adds a questionable moral dimension.
Not to mention blasphemous.
Before proceeding with this last phase of the discussion in this post, I must state: I am well-aware of the fact that Tolkien's myth was in a constant state of flux, and was ever-developing. If I am correct in my suggestions below (which is questionable in itself, of course) – they still reflect only my interpretation of Tolkien's thought aroung the late 1940s and early 1950s. I am pretty sure that as he was writing these chapters, he was not proceeding according to a planned-in-advance agenda; and I also know well that the character of Galadriel went further development. But still, I think this was the stage in which Tolkien considered thoroughly and systematically these three topics together.
In a letter to Naomi Mitchinson, written at 1954 (Letters no. 154), Tolkien wrote:
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But the Elves are not wholly good or in the right… they were 'embalmers'. They wanted to have their cake and eat it… and so tried to stop its (Middle-earth's) change and history, stop its growth, keep it as a pleasuance, even largely a desert, were they could be 'artists'…
________________________________________
This is quite a critical opinion of the Elves and their Rings – and especially of Galadriel, who had used Nenya, indeed arresting all change, and nearly stopping time altogether. It appears that Frodo's experience was not (as perceived by Tolkien in 1954) entirely wholesome; nor were Boromir's suspicions unfounded – indeed Galadriel was quite willing to sacrifice the rest of Middle-earth for her own agenda.
Does anybody rise in revolt?
One might see Elrond’s grooming Aragorn for kingship (and thus an inevitable showdown with Sauron) as a subtle conspiracy to destroy the One Ring and end Nenya’s power. Indeed, going farther into paranoia-ville, perhaps he engineered the meeting of Aragorn and Arwen, subtly encouraged their romance, then when they inevitably fell in love, he put forth the conditions he knew would ultimately bring about the end of Sauron, the One Ring, Nenya, and the Lothlorien wax museum.
This was "unnatural" – as far as this term could be applied to Elves. After all, in Cerin Amroth, Sam commented:
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I thought that Elves were all for moon and stars: but this is more elvish than anything I ever heard tell of. I feel as if I was inside a song, if you take my meaning.
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Which is innocent enough, but becomes a bit sinister when juxtaposed with Frodo's words here:
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And I don't remember any moon, either new or old, in Caras Galadon: only stars by night and sun by day.
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No moon at all. Again, this stands in stark contrast to Rivendell, where the midsummer moon is so important to the plot of The Hobbit.
Does this strike anybody as strange?
As strange as the moon’s differing phases, settings, risings, and outright absences all through Shakespeare’s “A Midsummer Night’s Dream”.
I find the absence of the moon in Lórien very significant. Compare to chapter 11 of The Silmarillion, Of the Sun and the Moon and the hiding of Valinor:
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The Sun was set as a sign for the awakening of Men and the waning of the Elves, but the Moon cherishes their memory.
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Soon it will be the phase of the moon
When people tune in.
Every girl knows about the punctual blues,
But who's to know the power behind our moves?
-Kate Bush, Strange Phenomena
Keeping Elvendom alive and vibrant, has become at the price of banishing the Moon.
And banishing menstruation. And thus no ovulation. And so no baby Elves. There's your problem right there!
Rivendell is the seat of memory of the Ancient Days; but in Lórien there is no need for memory – the Ancient Days are still living, or at least visually embalmed in there.
Pippin gazed in growing wonder at the great stone city, vaster and more splendid than anything that he had dreamed of; greater and stronger than Isengard, and far more beautiful. Yet it was in truth falling year by year into decay; and already it lacked half the men that could have dwelt at ease there. In every street they passed some great house or court over whose doors and arched gates were carved many fair letters of strange and ancient shapes: names Pippin guessed of great men and kindreds that had once dwelt there; and yet now they were silent, and no footsteps rang on their wide pavements, nor voice was heard in their halls, nor any face looked out from door or empty window.
-Minas Tirith
Gondor would seem to have a lot more in common with Lothlorien than one might think.
Thus, the very essence of Lórien is in a way a sign of defiance, even a continuation of the rebellion against the Valar. The means are no doubt different from those of Fëanor, but the underlying, fundamental sin is the same.
So what are we to make of the return of the king?
Perhaps Prof. Flieger is right, and part of the impetus for Tolkien's interest in Elves, and elvish time, was wish, and a consideration of the possibilities for rising above the fetters of time; but as writing progressed, and The Lord of the Rings became more of a "fundamentally religious and Catholic book" (according to Letter 142), he realized that this was a sinful wish (Prof. Shippey discussed this ambivalence in several places, see chapter 6 and 8 of The Road to Middle-earth). After all, it is said in Genesis 1:14 (taken from the King James translation):
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And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years.
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Or is this going too far?
Probably not.
I think these considerations enhance the Temptation of Galadriel, and the strength of character, essential goodness, and (doubtlessly) Divine Grace needed for her to pass the test, renounce all that she had, diminish and go into the West.
It also shows Boromir the Man as a mirror to Galadriel the Elf. He, like Galadriel, was in the end redeemed by hobbits.
As a final note – it appears that Celeborn was not a part of it all; and his reward was retaining this power of the moon, and cherishing the memory of the elves.
See my comment re the book of hours above.
Unlike his spouse, he was in love with Middle-earth, not just with the land he made his own. Galadriel had to leave immediately after the One Ring was destroyed and the power of the Three failed, and with her Lothlórien "went" – only Arwen's unmarked grave is there; but Celeborn:
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…went to dwell there (in Rivendell) after the departure of Galadriel; but there is no record of the day when at last he sought the Grey Havens, and with him went the last living memory of the Elder Days in Middle-earth.
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– Note on Shire Records, from the Prologue.
I note Tolkien never mentioned the Ban of the Valar being applied to Celeborn, so yes I suppose he truly loved Middle-earth.
Finally, I have finished. Feel free to comment, praise, shrug, disagree, or pelt me with rotten tomatos.
Praise with great praise!
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I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 16 2015, 9:09pm
Post #19 of 36
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It seems to me that the Lorien experience feels profoundly different, but if people were marking days on a calendar inside and out, they would come to the same result. The reason for that is that ME seems grounded in so many rules that render it NOT a land of whimsy. It's possible in other fantasy stories for Frodo to jump off a bridge in Moria and pass through a mid-air portal to wind up in Erebor, or open the door at Bag End and see a giant Sauron Eye looking back at him, but Tolkien's rules don't seem to allow that. Lorien is stuck in Middle-earth and can have Moria orcs tramp through pursuing Frodo & Co, and be attacked by Dol Guldur, and visited by Elrond's sons---the list goes on and on. It just feels too rooted in the world to support a secondary time plane.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 17 2015, 8:17pm
Post #20 of 36
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I suppose thie chapter reveals Tolkien the dreamer vs Tolkien the rationalist. Lorien is more compelling as the fairyland where time runs on its own clocks and like Valinor, it's removed from the common, lesser world of mortals. It makes for a much better story. But then it makes less sense in a world that usually makes sense, so yes, if Lorien is removed from time, does the rest of the world speed up or slow down? If we're standing on the banks of Nimrodel and look across to the other side, are people moving in fast motion or slow motion, and either way, isn't it silly?
It seems to work better in the ambivalent sphere of perception, where time *seems* to run at a different pace, but not really. Since Tolkien seemed to change his mind repeatedly on this point, I think he leaves the footprints of his various decisions behind him, such as the absence of the moon. And maybe it was visible, but the hobbits just didn't notice it because the aura of the land mesmerized them in other ways.
Symbolically, the absence of the moon would make Lorien seem (at night, anyway) like the world was before the sun & moon, such as Beleriand under Thingol's rule before the Noldor returned and the sun appeared. Was this a tribute to Melian and Thingol in their happiest days before there was war in Beleriand?
But if you can keep the moon out of the sky, why does the sun still appear everyday? It's probably questions like that which forced Tolkien to whittle away at the "fairyland in another dimension" idea and root Lorien back in ME.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 18 2015, 1:00pm
Post #21 of 36
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A bit exaggerated, isn't it? //
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 18 2015, 1:48pm
Post #22 of 36
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I forgot all about the Coriolis effect!
Indeed, all things equal the river will keep digging out the eastern bank and settling out debris on the west.
In general, thank you for all the fascinating information regarding river-travelling. And archery.
He’s thinking too much. As he will discover at Amon Hen, he makes his best decisions listening to his heart.
You've made this observation several times, and I'm waiting to read what you will have to say to the post about Aragorn.
I note that according to his words in The Passing of Boromir, "my heart speaks clearly at last", it is not that he wasn't trying to listen.
even though there was a chance of them “slipping through, unseen by any eyes on the eastern shore”, that wasn’t really the way to bet. For sure.
But Sarn Gebir is just the right place for an attack. How fast do you think the current was? Could the orcs outpace the boats?
It’s a philological pun. An arrow is said to give a whistle when flying through the air. A whistle is "a shrill noise". The word “shrill” is from the German word for “piercing”, and piercing is exactly what Legolas’ arrow did to its target. Hmm... where do you think he pierced it?
Next time I see the Fell Beast, I must look for any odd rings stuck in its body.
Tolkien also cut where Legolas shoots while waterskiing behind the boat. Writers tend to go nuts when it comes to Legolas.
Yes... Legolas, always bright and sunny, gliding gracefully with the tide...
We'll all be planning out a route
We're gonna take real soon
We're waxing down our surfboards
We can't wait for June
We'll all be gone for the summer
We're on surfari to stay
Tell the teacher we're surfin'...
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 18 2015, 1:53pm
Post #23 of 36
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I wouldn't put too much stock on the “three ride limit” rule
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Especially as the third time is yet far in the future. Do you think Gandalf saved it for later?
I personally think that Gwaihir might have taken Gandalf to Fangorn, and this would still be considered a part of the second time; or else that the "three times count" refers to Gandalf the White only.
And of course (blasphemy alert!), Tolkien might have forgotten about this little detail, or simply not thought it out.
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 18 2015, 1:58pm
Post #24 of 36
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But on the other hand, they are the only Silvan Elves realm we know, except for Mirkwood...
I have noted this difference too, and have wondered about it. Perhaps the Mirkwood Elves feel less endangered, and thus in less need of making greater bows? Or the wood is too dense and tangled to enable any long-range shooting on the one hand, and makes it extremely difficult to move in with too large a bow?
I suppose I wonder why Lorien is better at making bows than Mirkwood Elves are, and is Mirkwood superior to Lorien in anything? Is Lorien more advanced because of the presence of Galadriel and Celeborn alone, or do they have Noldor and/or Sindar in their retinue with advanced weapon--making skills from Beleriand's wars?
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sador
Half-elven
Jun 18 2015, 2:03pm
Post #25 of 36
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But I still wonder. It could be that Frodo simply didn't know (back in Three is Company) that Silvan Elves also were used to invoking Elbereth - and why shouldn't they? After all, they have lived long in the light of her stars, while they Noldor were basking in that of the Trees of Yavanna!
Or else, it could be some blessing of Galadriel rubbing off on the memebers of the Company, Legolas included.
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