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Iarhen
The Shire
Jun 8 2015, 7:20pm
Post #1 of 16
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Sauron's Eye-Shape in LOTR and its possible origin in TH
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In PJ's canon for the LOTR/TH movies, we all know that Sauron's shape during the entire LOTR trilogy is that of a flaming, gigantic eye that sits a top of Barad-Dur.
Nevertheless, Sauron's appearance in TH was very different, since:
1. In "An Unexpected Journey", Sauron/the Necromancer appears as a shadowy-humanoid figure (when he chases Radagast out of Dol Guldur).
2. In "The Desolation of Smaug", Sauron/the Necromancer appears in 2 parts: first, as a big-shadowy presence when he is talking to Azog, then when he confronts Gandalf at the exit of Dol Guldur, the Necromancer first appears as a huge black-cloud that, after the intense duel with the wizard, evolves to the armored-Sauron figure surrounded by an aura of flame (that very much resembles the Eye of LOTR). Nevertheless, the armored-figure of Sauron appears at the center of the fire as a clearly humanoid-figure.
3. We then have Sauron in "The Battle of the Five Armies" as a clear humanoid figure that appears before the White Council in Dol Guldur, surrounded by flame. His armored-figure is more clearly distinguishable than in the previous film (perhaps because of the energy he has absorbed from Gandalf?).
Then, the confrontation with Galadriel happens.
As we remember, Galadriel rises in might, challenges him with the Phial and after saying he has "no power here", the Lady of Lorien very clearly says this next phrase: "You are nameless! Faceless! Formless!"... And while she is saying this, we can see some sort of short-circuit/interference in Sauron's appearance, as his armored figure begins to blink/fade in the flaming aura that surrounds him, until in a scream of agony, Sauron is expelled from Dol Guldur as a ball of flame that retreats to the East/Mordor.
My question is... Do you think that Sauron's confrontation with Galadriel had ever-lasting-consequences in his appearance? Because after this duel between the Lord of Mordor and the Lady of Lorien, Sauron never again reappears in his armored figure... So, maybe, not only did Galadriel face permanent consequences after that confrontation (as she spent much of her power/her strenght fades), but Sauron also had to exist as a non-corporeal form/flaming eyeball after that fight?
What do you think?
"You have no power here, servant of Morgoth! You are nameless! Faceless! Formless! Go back to the Void from whence you came!"
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jun 8 2015, 7:24pm
Post #2 of 16
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I explored this topic a year or so ago. I maintain the Eye of Sauron
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at Baradur shows the black humanoid iris shape struggling as the tower falls.....in The Hobbit it was shown to be exactly as I thought.
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 8 2015, 8:43pm
Post #4 of 16
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There are designs of the Necromancer AKA SAURON in full flesh form but with the pupil with fire on the place of his eyes, very disturbing and satysfing design
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jun 8 2015, 8:47pm
Post #5 of 16
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The problem is that LOTR was made before The Hobbit so you can't change it.
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I think the humanoid figure "in the eye" is the same (actually more of a projected image from where Sauron existed). My guess is that the Galadriel confrontation had no effect.
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Iarhen
The Shire
Jun 8 2015, 8:51pm
Post #6 of 16
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Do you happen to know where I can find those designs?
"You have no power here, servant of Morgoth! You are nameless! Faceless! Formless! Go back to the Void from whence you came!"
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 8 2015, 8:56pm
Post #7 of 16
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they are in the weta battle of the five armies art and design book
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there is a chapter named summoning the necromancer, I hope they will finally use those designs I can clearly picture that Sauron inside Barad Dur
Is more or less the mouth of sauron but without the helmet and instead the helmet or the eyes the pupile surrounded by flames is placed but in a size acording to is face, only his mouth is seen, its pretty pretty cool and terrifying
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
Jun 8 2015, 10:17pm
Post #8 of 16
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We know from the book that Sauron was expelled from Dol Guldur by the "devices of Saruman". This is what we saw in the film. Look at it from Saruman's perspective: he knew that Sauron was going to feign defeat and retreat to Mordor, if challenged. So, the obvious thing to do is to step back and let the others waste their strength fighting him. That way, Galadriel is weakened and less able to interfere, leaving Sauron safe in Mordor for the time being and Saruman free to search the nearby river for the ring, in the hope that he can get to it first and take power before Sauron is sufficiently strong to challenge him. Some first class scheming from the old chap - devices indeed.
To answer the original question - Sauron wasn't much affected by the encounter; if you're planning a strategic withdrawal, you don't hang around long enough to get seriously injured.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 9 2015, 3:43am
Post #9 of 16
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Come on. Saruman does nothing in movieverse at DolGuldur except...
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Kicking some Nazguls asses and is afraid when the eye appears.
I dont understand at all why some people make this second thinking about that Saruman is rising his hand to give power to Galadriel etc HE IS AFRAID at least in this theatrical cut. Otherwise moviemakers would have made clearer that he and Galadriel were joining forces in that very moment
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero
(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jun 9 2015, 12:52pm)
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darthgandalf99
Registered User
Jun 9 2015, 10:23am
Post #10 of 16
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"Sauron never again reappears in his armored figure"
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He appears as an armoured figure in ROTK, holding the Palantir. It's nothing more or less corporeal than what we see in The Hobbit trilogy.
Clearly the film makers were not that consistent with depicting Sauron, and I don't think your theory can really hold up given this.
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darthgandalf99
Registered User
Jun 9 2015, 10:32am
Post #11 of 16
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book lore is different to film lore
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You're mixing and matching book lore and film lore here.
Sauron's withdrawal from Dol Guldur is not presented as a strategic withdrawal in the film. He stands to challenge the White Council, and makes a big show of it all.There's no background in the films to suggest that this was the case or was his strategy as in the case of the book lore. His forces and servants are based at Dol Guldur and he launched a full scale war from that base. Why would he abandon his chief base in Wilderland at the very same time he is launching a war to gain control of it. That wouldn't make any sense. What we do see is Galadriel obliterating the shades of the Nazgul and after challenging Sauron for sufficiently long, him fleeing. We don't know whether he was wounded or not.
There is also no indication whether Saruman has turned yet as he has in the book, so it could be he was simply allowing Galadriel and Sauron to duke it out and weakening each other, but then why come to help her and Gandalf in the first instance and fight the Nazgul.
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
Jun 9 2015, 12:04pm
Post #12 of 16
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and nobody is afraid probably because this is a Tolkien adaptation and not a film by the Farrelly brothers. In the filmed version of the book, Saruman behaves as I'd expect him to if he was already scheming to search for the ring, and if he knows a good deal more than he's letting on. I don't know who you think is saying that he joined forces with Galadriel - he's clearly standing back and letting her take the brunt of it. The end result is that Sauron is out of the way in Mordor and Galadriel is weakened and less likely to interfere for a while, leaving Saruman to search for the ring nearby without hindrance. That is top quality scheming, and is consistent with the overall story, if not with all the details in the books.
(And as far as profanity goes, it's not really part of the world of Tolkien, so if a mod wants to censor the offending word, fine. But hiding it behind asterisks is pointless - it's obvious what word is being used - even a small child who happens to wander by wouldn't be fooled.)
Kicking some Nazguls asses and is afriaid when the eye appears.
I dont understand at all why some people make this second thinking about that Saruman is rising his hand to give power to Galadriel etc HE IS AFRAID at least in this theatrical cut. Otherwise moviemakers would have made clearer that he and Galadriel were joining forces in that very moment
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
(This post was edited by entmaiden on Jun 9 2015, 12:53pm)
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
Jun 9 2015, 12:40pm
Post #13 of 16
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It's an adaptation of a story, by someone who respects the original.
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What you see on screen is consistent with the story to some extent. They clearly show, in FOTR, that everyone's been far too complacent about Sauron. The last film shows the roots of that complacency; Saruman knows that Sauron is not so easily defeated by force - so he focusses on getting hold of the ring, but that search for power ends up corrupting him. So, we see the beginnings of his corruption - like Denethor, he has already learned to stand back and let others do the fighting and take the risks. And, having studied the enemy more closely than the others, he knows that Sauron will not risk his strength defending Dol Guldur (which is now just an empty ruin), when he has other irons in the fire - he's still expecting to be able to take Erebor at this stage and with this, Gundabad and Mordor prepared for him, he would control the north and the east, and with mountain strongholds that are much easier to defend and less accessible to his enemies (Dol Guldur is surrounded by enemy lands - a siege would be difficult to relieve - if they come from the mountains, Galadriel's folk could ambush them; if they come through the forest, Thranduil's folk could ambush them etc.) Sauron's not daft, which is why, in the books, he had his plans well drawn up in advance. I don't think the film makers wanted to portray him as daft either.
You're mixing and matching book lore and film lore here.
Sauron's withdrawal from Dol Guldur is not presented as a strategic withdrawal in the film. He stands to challenge the White Council, and makes a big show of it all.There's no background in the films to suggest that this was the case or was his strategy as in the case of the book lore. His forces and servants are based at Dol Guldur and he launched a full scale war from that base. Why would he abandon his chief base in Wilderland at the very same time he is launching a war to gain control of it. That wouldn't make any sense. What we do see is Galadriel obliterating the shades of the Nazgul and after challenging Sauron for sufficiently long, him fleeing. We don't know whether he was wounded or not.
There is also no indication whether Saruman has turned yet as he has in the book, so it could be he was simply allowing Galadriel and Sauron to duke it out and weakening each other, but then why come to help her and Gandalf in the first instance and fight the Nazgul.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
Jun 9 2015, 12:41pm
Post #14 of 16
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I didnt mran to hurt anybody with my language, words wich you have used openly not I
And for that matter ..no, I wont start a polemic discussion even if I could
Sorry if anyone ofended
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 9 2015, 12:56pm
Post #15 of 16
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that you have been on these message boards long enough to know our rules about profanity. Hiding behind asterisks is against the rules, just as much as using the actual words.
Here's the rule:
2. We strive to maintain a “family friendly” atmosphere that is welcoming to users of all ages. That means no cursing (including '***disguised***' profanity), swearing, excessive sexual innuendo or posting pics that contain nudity. Basically, if it’s not allowed during prime family-watching time on TV (roughly a PG rating), it’s not appropriate here. Additionally, links posted by users that lead to sites that do not hold to the same family friendly standards may be edited or deleted at the discretion of the board Admins/Moderators. An official link from TORn's front page (including News from Bree posts) to another site is a referral to the linked article/information only. We cannot guarantee the quality or family-friendly nature of other site content, including user comments. Please use your own discretion when following links to external sites.
Continued violations can result in a warning.
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
Jun 9 2015, 1:20pm
Post #16 of 16
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Apologies for quoting the offending word. Don't suppose we could ban the constant references to kicking people in the rear, which has nothing to do with good English, Tolkien or even the film adaptations?
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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