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Arannir
Valinor
Jun 8 2015, 7:54am
Post #1 of 35
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Violence in Books, TV and Movies
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Okay, I really need to make this thread because I still can't belive where the writers of the the show "Game of Thrones" took the series and its audience last night.
I do not want to post spoilers here... but you can google it. It will show up immediately.
Now I am not one of those who ranted against this show early on because of the violence and sex scenes. In the beginning I really thought that it all served the story and was never glorified but simply shown to portray this war-ridden, dark fantasy world.
And I now that things such as the event I mentioned above did happen like this (or in similar manners) in our dark times (and even today).
But there are certain things I do not want to see or read about - or if I see them and read about them I really want to see the prupose behind it all.
But GoT has jumped the shark here lately... too much violence and rape that seemingly does not really push the plot forward... but actually puts the show to a stop in order to shock.
Poor storytelling.
I am calling it... this show - once rightfully deemed a potential candidate for one of the best of all time - has become a poorly written piece of high-production value television. I just hope GRRM offers something else and something better in his new book...
I know this is not a GoT board... so I would broaden the discussion.
Because it leads to the general question of violence and sex in books, television and the movies.
Ironically, in the beginning I thought GoT was a "good boy" there - as it showed the true horror of war, not portraying it as some glorious struggle, centered on the glory of some heroes. But for me - and I usually accept a lot in that respect - it has become too much.
Have you ever came across a book/show/movie that just crossed a certain border for you? Was it just because of the actual violence or sex portrayed or was it because how it was set-up in storytelling terms? Are there examples from the other extreme - not showing ENOUGH (catch-phrase: cartoon-violence)?
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Jun 8 2015, 8:08am)
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Meneldor
Valinor
Jun 8 2015, 1:07pm
Post #2 of 35
(718 views)
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I can't comment of GoT because I don't watch it,
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but I see that line too often and avoid crossing it. For me, an example of a movie that goes too far is Rob Roy, especially the rape scene. A movie that gets it just right is Last of the Mohicans, where the violence is just graphic enough to let us understand how shocking it must be to two innocent young ladies newly arrived from London. It is certainly unpleasant, but LotM never revels in the gore and or dwells on the cruelty; it's just enough to show us what we need to understand how disturbing it must be to innocent characters.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Jun 8 2015, 1:09pm
Post #3 of 35
(727 views)
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Hollywood will shovel out anything that makes money
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Lots of people love watching violence, whether it's a dog fight or a boxing match or fictional movie violence or the Romans in the Coliseum back in the day. It's part of the seedy side of life, and like prostitution as long as there are customers there will be suppliers. Since in the U.S. writers can invoke freedom of speech as an excuse for gratuitous movie violence, the only way to protest it is to not be a customer, which is what I do.
On the up side, lots of people watch cute kitty videos on YouTube, so maybe there's hope for the human race after all. 
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Dame Ioreth
Tol Eressea
Jun 8 2015, 1:20pm
Post #4 of 35
(709 views)
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Rob Roy really bothered me because some of the scenes (the rape scene in particular) seem to take the story point and go much too far in relation to the other parts of the movie. It didn't fit. Last of the Mohicans had me on the edge of my seat because of the amazing writing that went just far enough. There was no wasted scene, no gratuitous violence against men or women. It all had a purpose.
_
Heed WBA when building blanket forts.
ITLs don't get enough FAS. :)
Where there's life there's hope, and need of vittles.
― J.R.R. Tolkien, The Lord of the Rings
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 8 2015, 1:28pm
Post #5 of 35
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I haven't seen or read any of the GoT shows/books, in fact I'm currently writing a fantasy-type book (more along the lines of LoTR, I think) and have yet to write a single sex scene. My friends (who are also trying to write) talk about whether or not to add sex, and it seems books do sell better if there is at least SOME of that in it. You can be sure there's plenty of action and violence, but I do think it's a fine line between something interesting that adds to the story vs. just throwing it in there to pump the ratings. The fact that it DOES pump the ratings says alot about human beings, doesn't it?
I started a poll on "Hannibal," which stars a serial killer as the main character. Yeah, this show probably gets as close to "over the line" as I'll be able to tolerate, but it does have its Fannibals. Likewise, there was some pretty graphic torture & male rape in the season finale of "Outlander," enough to where I told my daughter NOT to watch it - I know how she feels about that sort of thing. I remember when the first "Hostel" movie came out; I predicted that yes it would be the No. 1 movie because people will go to see if it's really as bad as it claims, but then it will nosedive in the ratings - and it did. So I guess there's the answer, are people watching the show because the story is engaging, or just to see if it's as bad as people claim? It's possible that GoT is suffering from thinking it has to be MORE shocking/violent, in order to keep up the ratings. Sort of one-up itself, increase the "WOW" factor as in the upcoming "Jurassic World" movie - create something bigger and badder so that people will keep coming, otherwise they'll get bored with the same ol' same ol'. Like I said, it's a fine line, and one that will shift depending on who's watching.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 8 2015, 2:34pm
Post #6 of 35
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I think that you are jumping the gun.
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The incident that you seem to be referring to* takes place late in the episode and I don't think we have the full context yet. In fact, since the next episode is the season finale, we might not have a complete perspective on the event until the next season. Also, the death happens off-screen; I don't think that you can honestly say that it was presented in bad taste--disturbing 'though it may be. We do not have enough to go on yet to call it gratuitous.
This seems to be a trend in criticisms of long-form storytelling (mostly in television series and comics): Making judgements on developments in the narrative before those events are placed in their proper context.
* SPOILER ALERT...SPOILER ALERT...SPOILER ALERT
I assume you refer to the burning to death of the young princess.
END SPOILER
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 8 2015, 2:35pm)
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Arannir
Valinor
Jun 8 2015, 2:45pm
Post #7 of 35
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... I followed both the books and the series over the last years. I simply was disappointed too often by how things were developed or did develop to be able to speak about "early judgment" anymore. For me personally, of course.
I gave both - books and show - the benefit of the doubt more than once.
But I cannot deny anymore that too much seems like an empty facade to me. And that is probably the point when the violence becomes off-putting and seems like an end in itself. Without true purpose.
I know a lot of people still like the show and I myself liked the show and the books for pretty much the same things I critizise them for now. Probably because it lost its meaning to me.
So I disagree with those saying that things like this show the evil human character etc etc - far from it. I know that there is much more behind both books and show. But I am still wondering where exactly they lost me.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Jun 8 2015, 2:51pm)
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NottaSackville
Valinor
Jun 8 2015, 3:26pm
Post #8 of 35
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That last bit actually worries me more than the discussion topic... //
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 Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville
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Elarie
Grey Havens
Jun 8 2015, 3:46pm
Post #9 of 35
(698 views)
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admit it - kitties are cute
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jun 8 2015, 4:32pm
Post #10 of 35
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Game of Thrones isn't, and never was, for the faint hearted (GoT SPOILERS)...
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From the moment I opened the pages of A Game of Thrones, it has been clear to me that George R.R. Martin has no problem shocking, horrifying and disturbing me. The trade off is one on of the most richly textured and emotional stories I've ever had privilege to experience.
And if one thinks that Martin won't go here in the books, I encourage you to watch the "Inside the Episode" featurette for this episode.
Stannis Baratheon is a man who send a shadow demon to murder his own brother. He has had his followers burned to death because they either refused to reject the Gods they and their fathers have long worshiped, or because they spoke ill of the Red Priestess Melisandre (who dubbed them "servants of darkness"). He wanted to burn his own nephew (even worse in the book, as he had a more personal connection with the young Edric Storm). The man is a religious fanatic who will do anything to anyone to appease the Lord of Light so long as it results in his ascendency to the throne. He is bolstered by Melisandre's claim that he is the chosen one, Azor Ahai reborn, the one who lead humanity against the coming darkness.
It was all coming to this. Of course he sacrificed his own daughter. It's appalling to us, because we know and love Shireen. But, honestly, it's not surprising. It's the ultimate realization of who Stannis is as a character and why this psychopath should never be allowed near the Iron Throne.
Poor storytelling? That's your prerogative to call it such, but I could not disagree more. Horrifying, disturbing, stomach turning - yes. But, for me, masterful storytelling.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
(This post was edited by Aragorn the Elfstone on Jun 8 2015, 4:35pm)
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Arannir
Valinor
Jun 8 2015, 5:53pm
Post #11 of 35
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It was like this for me.as well, at first.
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Make no mistake, I adored what Martin created with Westeros and the SoIaF. And when the series came I found myself to like some of it even more than the books.
But several things have alienated from both book and show. One of them is Stannis . All of what you say is true but I neither found it portrayed very well, nor that convincing and consistent.
In the books it is different of course as the princess might be burned while Stannis is away.
But I guess it is normal with such a complex story that some might dislike it at some point and others won't :) All good.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jun 9 2015, 6:45am
Post #12 of 35
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Game of Thrones is not entertainment nor is it pleasurable to watch,
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at least not in the same way as other TV series (e.g. Doctor Who, LOST), dramas (e.g. Broadchurch, CSI) or soaps (e.g. Eastenders, Neighbours) are. It is in its own exclusive category.
'Has Game of Thrones gone too far?' appears to be a tagline attached to every series 5 episode after it has aired. Why has it taken 5 series?
My neighbour was awoken by police at her door at 3am last week. Her teenage daughter had died in a 100mph collision with an HGV. She asked to see her daughters body, but the car exploded on impact. All that was left of her was her identification. I found the recent episode of Game of Thrones too distressing and upsetting to watch for obvious reasons.
I have always found it hard to understand the appeal of the franchise. The whole setup is far too foul for my liking - the world is based on terror and dictatorship, and it seems that there are no limits whatsoever to the foulness which is displayed though out the series. The scene production is very nicely done, including the whole environment and use of costumes and armour. But that is not enough. This story is filled to the top with killing, burning and violation, also of women and children, with no respect for human life and disrespect towards women. It's full of cheap thrills and erotica which are frankly embarrassing and sometime distressing to watch. I get that it is a feast of dark, complex political maneuverings, but the violence is ever present, bloody and vicious; the female nudity disgustingly gratuitous; and it seems the authors filled the script with derogatory words and phrases simply because they couldn't think of better nouns and adjectives. I strongly disagree with George RR Martin's recent comments on the justification of including sexual violence, specifically:
“I’m writing about war, which what almost all epic fantasy is about. But if you’re going to write about war, and you just want to include all the cool battles and heroes killing a lot of orcs and things like that and you don’t portray [sexual violence], then there’s something fundamentally dishonest about that. Rape, unfortunately, is still a part of war today. It’s not a strong testament to the human race, but I don’t think we should pretend it doesn’t exist.”
..
“I want to portray struggle,” he concluded. “Drama comes out of conflict. If you portray a utopia, then you probably wrote a pretty boring book.”
I'm not sure how portraying the ruthless sexual violence that often accompanies conflict will make our contemporaries pay more attention to it.
What I find even more distasteful is 'Throncast' which follows each episode (in the UK), where they analyse, joke and laugh about what was just seen. How on earth someone can joke about Stannis's actions is beyond me. I felt sick. This additional show trivialises the struggle these characters go through. And it now appears that they are to start selling Game of Throne colouring books for children. Who exactly is their target audience? I look forward to my nephew colouring in the page where Daenerys and Sansa are raped ......
I do not condemn anyone who wants to watch the TV series or read the book. I actually find the overall story line intriguing. The politics is great, the acting is superb, and the production design is at a very high standard. Last weeks episode was probably one of the best pieces of television I had ever seen - and what was even better - there wasn't a boob, a bum or a swear word to be heard or seen!
(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jun 9 2015, 6:46am)
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NottaSackville
Valinor
Jun 9 2015, 12:11pm
Post #13 of 35
(563 views)
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Happiness: money matters, but less than we think and not in the way that we think. Family is important and so are friends, while envy is toxic -- and so is excessive thinking. Beaches are optional. Trust is not. Neither is gratitude. - The Geography of Bliss by Eric Weiner as summarized by Lily Fairbairn. And a bit of the Hobbit reading thrown in never hurts. - NottaSackville
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Elutherian
Rohan
Jun 9 2015, 3:21pm
Post #14 of 35
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The moment you're mentioning was ripped...
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....right out of stories in Greek Mythology and the Old Testament.
No, it didn't go too far. This is exactly why people watch Game of Thrones: To not get what they expect, to be shocked and devestated, and then feel the opposite by the end of the episode when something amazing happens.
That's the show. That's the books. If you don't care for that, that's fine. But it's not fair to say the show is jumping the shark or going downhill. It's the best show on television and the greatest fantasy of our age, and the producers deserve all the respect we can give for bringing it to life the way they have so epically.
Chaos isn't a pit, chaos is a ladder.
(This post was edited by Elutherian on Jun 9 2015, 3:22pm)
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Annael
Immortal
Jun 9 2015, 3:22pm
Post #15 of 35
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that's why I stopped reading the books
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The whole setup is far too foul for my liking - the world is based on terror and dictatorship, and it seems that there are no limits whatsoever to the foulness which is displayed though out the series.
I just can't get with the argument that this is how the world "really" is. It's how some of the world, how some of life is. But a story that unrelentingly focuses on just the negative aspects of life is every bit as untrue to "life" as the most twee, everything-is-lovely writing. Life is richer than that: it includes both good & bad.
And if a person is not "foul" they'll probably be killed off. What's the message here George?
I am a dreamer of words, of written words. I think I am reading; a word stops me. I leave the page. The syllables of the words begin to move around … The words take on other meanings as if they had the right to be young.
-- Gaston Bachelard
* * * * * * * * * *
NARF and member of Deplorable Cultus since 1967
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 9 2015, 3:24pm
Post #16 of 35
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There was the first (and last) time I tuned into an episode of the Sopranos just in time to see a backroom three-way between two middle-aged men and a woman young enough to be their daughter...
My viewing tastes are fairly broad, but deliberate. I usually have a good idea of what to expect when I choose to watch something and prefer when a program doesn't stray into shocking or gratuitous territory, unless it's the point of the show. I prefer media that exhibit light and virtue; unless, again, darkness is the point of the text.
There's just too many shows glorifying people behaving badly cough Son's of Anarchy, et al cough. I don't find these entertaining nor a good way to relax. When I see children sporting merch from such shows, I cringe and despair for them.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jun 9 2015, 3:31pm)
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jun 9 2015, 4:42pm
Post #17 of 35
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Slightly off topic, but the Season 5 soundtrack is out today for those interested...
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Granted there seem to be a fair amount of people in this thread who really don't like the show, but since there seem to be a few big fans in here as well, I thought I'd post it. The Season 5 soundtrack with the score by Ramin Djawadi has been released today on Digital (the CD will come out next month). Here's the iTunes link (US store):
https://itunes.apple.com/...rom-hbo/id1000899633
I've only listened to the bits from episodes already aired (I don't want to be musically spoiled), and the score is absolutely fantastic. I especially love the two tracks from the big climax of "Hardhome". Spooky/epic stuff.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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glor
Rohan
Jun 10 2015, 3:10am
Post #18 of 35
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Yes ripped from mythology, the Old Testament and European Medieval History, with a bit of Shakespeare thrown in.
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Probably why I do not like GOT an 'original' work that too much like a bad heavy metal fantasy fanfic for my tastes. Sorry but some of the plot lines are just too obvious and risible for me.
However your point is correct, there are rapes and violent murders in all the above mentioned works. What I dislike about GOT is that these seem to be deliberately inserted to trick the audience or reader into thinking the work itself is grown up, fantasy for adults, bunging in some violence and sex scenes doesn't make something adult, it makes it exploitative and gives it a cheap shock value.
I am no prude, the best show on TV is the amazing The Walking Dead, a show that is not afraid of violence but at the same time the violence serves a purpose because the consequences are felt via the characters, who are changed by it, or try not to be. The show gives time and weight to the effects of a violent apocalypse on individuals, and uses the characters to explore the nature of morality, civilisation, our faith in institutions etc. In fact more time is given in the Walking Dead to these matters than the violence itself, it is IMHO the Wire of our time, where civilisation and it's constructs are broken down piece by piece, layer by layer, as the drugs trade was in David Simon's masterpiece.
Having said that there is the HBO versus free to air cable thing going on. TV regulations mean that AMC has tighter rules about what it permitted to broadcast and HBO might just be using its subscription cable status to deliberately shock, to make a statement about its ability to show certain things that would fall foul of the regulators on free to air broadcast TV (again cheap, shock value, it can take more artistry to make something within restrictive limits, than to have an almost total free expression)
I think violence on TV or film is ok within context, without showing violent scenes certain dramas could be perceived as glamourising their subject matter. However, the context should also involve reflection, the quality of the writing and acting is key, as to whether violence and or sex is necessary.
No mascara can survive BOTFA
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jun 10 2015, 3:26am
Post #19 of 35
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It's amazing how differently things can be perceived by one person to another...
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Because "cheap shock value" is never anything I would associate with Game of Thrones. The violence is very crucial to the storytelling and the development of the characters and plot.
But, then, I feel like I've had this conversation on here before - so I won't dig in too much.
At the end of the day, I think we just all have different standards and qualifications for what we consider quality entertainment. It would probably be a boring world if we didn't.
Just to balance the scales, however, I will say that I've got absolutely no interest in The Walking Dead. 
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jun 10 2015, 7:43am
Post #20 of 35
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Forgive me, I'm not familiar with the books at all ...
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Because "cheap shock value" is never anything I would associate with Game of Thrones. The violence is very crucial to the storytelling and the development of the characters and plot.
... and I have no idea what happens next week (i.e. the repercussions) or in the next series. So what I say below might be absolute drivel.
I can't see how the characters of Stannis or Shireen have been developed since series 1. They (the production team) have to show how someone changes from the person in season 1 to the person in season 5 within a narrative that makes sense and makes you relate to why that person changed. It feels like they've suddenly increased Shireen's screentime just to kill her off. Apart from the absolute travesty of the scene in question, the general audience haven't come to love and admire Shireen. She's a minor character (compared to, say, Sansa). To me, that moment was completely untrue to what we'd seen of the Stannis before, as well. As a result, I can't help that the Shireen scene was only done purely for shock value. There are other ways that they could have shown Stannis discarding the last remnant of his humanity but presumably they wouldn't have the same headline making impact as having him burn his own daughter, for whom he has previously shown only love and devotion.
How does it happen in the book?
Just to balance the scales, however, I will say that I've got absolutely no interest in The Walking Dead.
I've never watched it either!
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glor
Rohan
Jun 10 2015, 12:47pm
Post #21 of 35
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I would not argue that GOT is enjoyed by many, just that it is not one of the greats of TV. I disliked The Sopranos for reasons of personal taste however, that did not prevent me seeing the quality of writing and acting on offer and understanding why The Sopranos has entered the canon of great TV. GOT is just Dynasty with dragons, that's not a bad thing, it's just not a great one.
As for TWD, I don't like comic books or horror, so I was surprised I liked it and how good it is, mind you i like sociological and ethnographic meta themes.
Anyway, to address the points in this thread, it is interesting how audiences perceive violence. How we can watch a thousand nameless orcs be decapitated and slaughtered but when one death violent death occurs of a character that the narrative has nurtured an audience empathy with, our perception of said violence changes.
I wonder how much of our revulsion at TV violence is about how much we care about a character as opposed to the actual measurable violence portrayed on screen. Is it more about perception than reality?
No mascara can survive BOTFA
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Aragorn the Elfstone
Tol Eressea
Jun 10 2015, 4:11pm
Post #22 of 35
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...aside from the fact that I heartily disagree regarding your evaluation of the quality of the show.
Game of Thrones, and George R.R. Martin's A Song of Ice and Fire, is one of the great fantasy epics of our time.
It's a position I make no apologies for - nor do I feel I should have to. We have a wide gulf between us, no question. But, as I said, such is the nature of the world.
And, with that, I think I've said my peace. It would be an understatement to say that I'm outnumbered in this particular thread.
"The danger with any movie that does as well as this one does is that the amount of money it's making and the number of awards that it's got becomes almost more important than the movie itself in people's minds. I look at that as, in a sense, being very much like the Ring, and its effect on people. You know, you can kind of forget what we were doing, if you get too wrapped up in that."
- Viggo Mortensen
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Brethil
Half-elven
Jun 10 2015, 7:18pm
Post #23 of 35
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I often wonder too about one's personal, real-world experience
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With violence, and how that affects how you see it. I know that's true for me , I wonder if it the same for others.
And no taking sides whatsoever, show-wise - but I do love TWD. 
Please no one feel like in the weekly thread discussion needs to be limited. Chat away, and as host (and others, I'm sure) I enjoy everyone's insights about shows or films I didn't see.
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macfalk
Valinor
Jun 10 2015, 7:31pm
Post #24 of 35
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On the Shireen scene (spoilers below, obviously)
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Can't Post
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According to D&D (in the their Inside the Episode video), GRRM told them about the burning so it will probably happen in the next book.
My first reaction was of course like everyone else: Don't put shock value above all else. Aside from being a horrifying scene to watch, they have almost ruined the character of Stannis now.
But if it does happen in the next book, well... I'll just deal with it. It doesn't make it as gratuitous if so.
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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macfalk
Valinor
Jun 10 2015, 7:41pm
Post #25 of 35
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Just... no. No.
The greatest adventure is what lies ahead.
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