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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 7 2015, 3:25pm
Post #1 of 32
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Mordor during the time of the Hobbit movies
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I've read the Hobbit and Lotr books and I know that in them the Nazgul were never entombed, and that they were in Minas Morgul at the time of the Hobbit book, having already prepared Mordor for Sauron's return, who was willing to abandon Dol Guldur and return to the Land of Shadow.
However, with book canon changed quite a bit in the Hobbit movies (the Nazgul recently resurrected, stationed at Dol Guldur with their master. Sauron has no intentions of abandoning Dol Guldur, instead wants to make it his base of operations, intending to retake Angmar where the Witchking would rule, or he wants to move to Angmar, in Carn Dum; either way he obviously has no intentions of returning to Mordor), what do you think Mordor looks like during the time of the Quest of Erebor? With the Nazgul away, there is no one to reassemble the fell creatures there, so possibly Gorgoroth was an empty land (the surviving orcs of Mordor probably hid in Seregost - a stronghold in Mordor that likely wasn't destroyed during the War of the Last Alliance, or Nargroth (although Nargroth was more likely abandoned in my opinion)).
The only adaption of Mordor in that time is the game Middle-earth: Shadow of Mordor. In it, it is said that, after the War of the Last Alliance Gondor built some defensive outposts around the Sea of Nurnen, too. However, after abandoning them due to the Great Plague, the lands around the Sea of Nurnen became populated with Corsairs of Umbar that probably entered Nurn through the Nargil Pass, at the source of the Southern tributary of the Sea. They became a peaceful nation, turning into the Tribesmen of Nurn. Do you think this (the building of Gondorian defences in Nurn and the populating of Nurn with Corsair raiders that turn peaceful) is plausible, could this have happened during the time of the Hobbit movies too?
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Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien
Jun 7 2015, 3:54pm
Post #2 of 32
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Not all of them were at Minas Morgul,
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a few were at Dol Guldur. I do think Sauron intended to go back to Mordor (in movie canon), but I think he meant to take places from the North, and then go back to Mordor and have an invasion from both the North and the South. Without Erebor in the way, Sauron could protect Angmar easily, and send his forces downwards. Without Erebor, launching an attack on Angmar would be much more harder.
To answer your questions, Mordor would probably look like a ruined Carn Dum (in LoTRO), but with more Orc-ish architecture. Though, since Mordor is such an important place, and with following movie canon, some probably knew Sauron was back or and were traveling to Mordor. To add onto that a few scattered orcs who survived the Battle of the Last Alliance (not them, but their children), would probably be in the region. I don't remember Seregost well, and looked it up. According to the Shadows of Mordor Wiki and Middle-Earth Roleplaying Wiki the Uruks took the fortress and lived there until Sauron came back. I have never played Shadows of Mordor, and I'm not sure how accurate it is. The wiki seems to imply that it is a place that might come out, so the information might be from the book.
I'm not sure if Corsair Raiders would turn peaceful, especially with Gondor in traveling distance, and not a large force to stop them in Mordor. According to the LoTR Wiki, Nurn was inhabited by Westron-speaking men who provided Sauron with farming land.
"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."
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Gandalf the Green
Rivendell
Jun 7 2015, 3:56pm
Post #3 of 32
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The only question I currently have about Mordor...
Why is there grass in Shadow of Mordor's version of it?
There's so much grass, it looks it could be anywhere else in
Middle-Earth... wasn't that game supposed to make things based on
movie designs as well?
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 7 2015, 4:17pm
Post #4 of 32
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Well, after the War of the Last Alliance, Sauron was not in Mordor to 'manipulate' the earth, and the Land of Shadow had two thousand years, in movie canon, to return to nature. So I find it very possible that grass was growing in Mordor at the time, and mainly because the land around volcanoes is very fertile. 
Also, I didn't mean the Tribesmen were peaceful towards Gondor, if you look at the Shadow of Mordor wiki, on the 'Barad Nurn' page, it says it became the centre of raidings into Ithilien and Khand for a time. The Tribesmen may still be hostile towards Gondor anyway. But maybe they didn't want to fight with Gondor anymore - the game wiki states they gave up their warrior habbits and settled down peacefully to farm the fertile lands of Nurn. I think this is plausible, at least it sounds to me  And as I know, Corsairs of Umbar were Westron speaking; so with a bit imagination, maybe we can guess most of the slaves in Nurn during the War of the Ring were these Tribesmen?
(This post was edited by ThorinsNemesis on Jun 7 2015, 4:18pm)
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Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien
Jun 7 2015, 4:33pm
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thinking about it that's possible. Especially since Sauron is controlling them. Is it possible that these people could have been related to the Gondorians, and that these people were traveling south?
"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 7 2015, 4:47pm
Post #6 of 32
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The Gondorians retreated from Nurn after the Great Plague struck, and never returned to their defensive posts there, at least that's what Shadow of Mordor wiki says. There may have been some exiled Gondorians (outcasts in the game) among the Tribesmen, though.
Given the supposed time of the settling of the Corsairs of Umbar, then they didn't know Sauron had returned at Dol Guldur. Maybe they separated from the rest of their kin and, after continuing their pirate habits for awhile, they decided to settle down, maybe because being separated from their rulers these Corsairs decided to settle down and govern their new lands as independent people (a real life example of this happening is the United States), forgetting their war with Gondor. Anyone think this is possible?
(This post was edited by ThorinsNemesis on Jun 7 2015, 4:51pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 7 2015, 7:11pm
Post #7 of 32
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With the Nazgul entombed for four hundred years in the film-canon, who was doing Sauron's will? There might have been Lesser Wraiths turned by the Morgul-blades of the Nine. The Ring-wraiths would have had their own lieutenants in their own territories, including the leaders of various Morgoth Cults. So the duties being performed by the Nazgul in the years leading up to The Hobbit in the book-canon could have been performed by others.
There do seem to be other changes necessitated by Jackson's alterations, such as Minas Ithil not being seized until a later time.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 7 2015, 8:08pm
Post #8 of 32
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I always imagined that lesser wraiths enslaved by the Nazgul, if any, were few and only surviving in the ruins of Carn Dum (no idea why I think that way ). I never actually thought about some other wraiths in Mordor during that time; it is as possible as Mordor not being governed by evil at the time.
On the talk about the Tribesmen of Nurn, do you think my theory above is possible? And do you have your own theory?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 7 2015, 11:49pm
Post #9 of 32
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Earnur, the Thirty-third King of Gondor might have met the fate of becoming a Wraith under the Witch-king. There must have been some examples of victims of Morgul-knives for Aragorn and Elrond to know of the peril of the wounded Frodo. Not that Sauron could not have had other supernatural/demonic servants. In the First Age he had Werewolves and Vampires in his service and he may have had other Wraith-servants besides the Nine. Sauron probably also commanded Black Numenoreans, Lords of Umbar and other powerful Men who could have acted in place of the Nazgul.
The explanation of Umbarites taking control of the Sea of Nurnen is probably as good as any. Late in the Third Age the Men of Nurn were enslaved to grow food for Mordor's armies.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 7 2015, 11:49pm)
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 8 2015, 5:19am
Post #10 of 32
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Yes, Sauron surely had others under his control that could take the place of the Nazgul (example: the Black Captains in Middle-earth Shadow of Mordor).
Anyway, the Corsairs of Umbar that settled in Nurn likely became more peaceful, because from my understanding the groups of them that took those lands were separated from their Lords in Umbar (who were the main connection with Sauron), so is it possible they decided to remain peaceful in Nurn during Sauron's absence? Because I know that after Sauron was defeated at the end of the Third Age Aragorn gave the lands around the Sea of Nurnen to those freed slaves (other Southrons might have been added to the Umbarian population of slaves), which implies that they were peaceful towards the Gondorians and he didn't intend to fight with them.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 8 2015, 10:39am
Post #11 of 32
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I'm not sure some of those differences are quite as stark
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Unless we want to imagine that Gandalf was quite wrong (and I don't think the text is presented to us in that light) then Sauron in the texts did want to assail Rivendell, and retake Angmar at the time of TH.
He certainly had alternatives and was well prepared against an assault on DG but I'm not sure the texts suggest a linear plan of withdrawal to Mordor (after all - why wait for the WC to attack?).
Equally, it's not obvious why the Nazgul would be necessary to regroup forces in Mordor. Sauron had any number of servants at his disposal to do that.
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 8 2015, 11:23am
Post #12 of 32
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As far as I know Middle-earth Shadow of Mordor follows the movie lore and was intended to fill in the gap between these movies. And as I read almost the entire wiki of that game it says after Sauron's downfall at the end of the Second Age his armies of evil beings hid in the fortress of Seregost (a place east of Barad Dur, hidden in a spur of the Ash Mountains), so they were probably mostly inactive in Mordor in the movies, too. And with the redesigning of the Black Gate (to prevent anything evil from leaving or entering Mordor), some soldiers still probably remaining in Minas Ithil at the time of DOS and with the populating of Nurn by a warrior-nation Sauron probably didn't intend to go back to Mordor; it would have been easier for him to just go to Angmar. Of course, after hearing of the death of Smaug and understanding that his army will meet resistance at Erebor, he may have had a back-thought, but almost certainly not a plan to return to Mordor, in my opinion.
Also, if we accept as possible for Corsairs of Umbar to have settled in Nurn, the game's wiki tells they entered the Sea of Nurnen from the south. Does that refer to the Southern river that flows into Nurnen to the North and the Nargil pass?
And also, the same wiki states the Sea of Nurnen became the main trade route of Mordor to the outside world, or something like that; maybe the game creators didn't put much thought into this. But aside that, does this refer to a trade route established by the Corsairs that settled in Nurn between them and the lands beyond the Nargil pass?
Any guesses on these matters?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 8 2015, 2:46pm
Post #13 of 32
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Even if the games follow the movie-lore, their is no obligation on Peter Jackson's part to say that the film-continuity follows the game-lore. The games can be placed in an alternate reality from both the books and the films.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 8 2015, 3:37pm
Post #14 of 32
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But I'm trying to base my understanding and discussion of movie lore as connecting almost tightly with Shadow of Mordor lore; that is why I am asking all these questions about Corsairs, Nargil pass etc.
(This post was edited by ThorinsNemesis on Jun 8 2015, 3:39pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 8 2015, 5:46pm
Post #15 of 32
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Why does something being in the game suggest it would also be true in the films?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 8 2015, 7:04pm
Post #16 of 32
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Shadow of Mordor plays off of the move-continuity. That suggests a certain amount of coordination between the game-developers and the studio. But there is no evidence to conclude that the cross-pollination works both ways.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 8 2015, 7:08pm
Post #17 of 32
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Yes I'm not sure how that plays backwards!
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 8 2015, 7:13pm
Post #18 of 32
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The background information from the game could work in regards to the films (if there are no inherent contradictions) but there is no reason to think that it has to do so. Actually, the OP conceded as much a couple of posts back.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 8 2015, 7:15pm)
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 8 2015, 7:28pm
Post #19 of 32
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that what's in the game doesn't suggest it's in the movies too. But as far as I know the game borrowed visualy and in lore from the Hobbit movies (as mentioned in the game Appendices: the Nazgul being at Dol Guldur, the reference to Minas Ithil being taken later than in book lore, etc. are all references to the lore changes PJ made in the Hobbit), which means it tries to fill the gap in movie continuity. Of course I am not saying Talion was in Mordor in the movies too, as calling a wraith of an elf from the Halls of Mandos was impossible I think, as was the thing that happened with Talion when he was dying (and I know PJ doesn't have to align his take on the lore with the game's); I meant the possible things (Corsairs populating Nurn, grass in Mordor etc.) maybe could have been plausible in movie lore.
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 9 2015, 11:21am
Post #20 of 32
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Do you think it was possible that, as in the game the Corsairs likely entered Mordor through the Nargil pass (which could have happened in the movies ), some sort of trade routes were established (between the opposite shores of the Sea of Nurnen, and more importantly - between the people living near the sea and those beyond the Nargil pass and the Ephel Duath)?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 9 2015, 2:42pm
Post #21 of 32
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Do you think it was possible that, as in the game the Corsairs likely entered Mordor through the Nargil pass (which could have happened in the movies ), some sort of trade routes were established (between the opposite shores of the Sea of Nurnen, and more importantly - between the people living near the sea and those beyond the Nargil pass and the Ephel Duath)?
I have a poster-map of Middle-earth which is a print of a map for the LotR movies. It shows the River Harnen in its proper location, perhaps 150 miles west of the source of the river flowing north into the Sea of Nurnen, where the Nargil Pass would be. So anyone entering Mordor through the Nargil Pass in Far Harad would have to approach by land. This map does not depict any trade routes that entered Mordor; it does show the Harad Road leading from deep within Far Harad through Ithilien. I know that there are non-canonical sources for roads and trade routes within Mordor.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 9 2015, 2:43pm)
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 9 2015, 4:59pm
Post #22 of 32
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Although non-canonical, roads may likely have been established for trade routes into and out of Mordor, either by foot or by water, even through the Nargil pass a trade road could have been made. Is this possible to happen in movie lore also?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 9 2015, 5:40pm
Post #23 of 32
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The existence of a pass suggests a road or path leading to it. And there were doubtless roads into Mordor from the East and Khand. The MERP Campaign Guide posited such routes passing north of the Sea of Nurmen. At least four distinct waterways provide access to Mordor's interior to the Sea of Nurnen.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 9 2015, 5:49pm
Post #24 of 32
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North/South of the Sea of Nurnen
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In any map of Mordor all the roads and settlements in Nurn are on the North side of the Sea of Nurnen, with nothing on the South. But isn't it more plausible that when they passed the Nargil pass the Corsairs would settle on the Southern shores, rather than go around to the North? Which part do you think they would settle/settled in (in Middle-earth Shadow of Mordor, and maybe in the movies) - to the North or South of the Sea of Nurnen? And do you think the lands south of the Sea were more fertile than those to the north during Sauron's absence from Mordor?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 9 2015, 6:22pm
Post #25 of 32
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I have no opionion about Shadow of Mordor.
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I don't have the game and can't comment about it. However, the Corsairs were mariners and would have had port cities in a number of places along the Sea of Nurnen. The Shadow of Mordor map that I found shows at least two waterways flowing into the inland sea that don't appear on Christopher Tolkien's maps.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 9 2015, 6:22pm)
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