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DainPig
Gondor
Jun 6 2015, 8:54pm
Post #1 of 35
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If it's called "Dragon Sickness", so why Thorin's grandfather catch it?
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In a scene of TBOTFA, Balin says to Bilbo: "Dragon sickness, i've seen it before. It happened with his grandfather."
The sickness should be called "Thror sickness" or "Gold Sickness".
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
(This post was edited by DainPig on Jun 6 2015, 8:57pm)
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Bofur01
Lorien
Jun 6 2015, 9:02pm
Post #2 of 35
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It's not that it's caused by the dragon...
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It's called that because it causes one to desire gold, as much as a dragon.
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Jun 6 2015, 9:04pm
Post #3 of 35
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had it it was not named Dragon Sickness but after Smaug have bin there it new name is Dragon Sickness. It had no name before that.
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 6 2015, 9:13pm
Post #4 of 35
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Didn't Thror's greed come after he found the Arkenstone?
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I wonder if the Arkenstone causes the illness and Dain doesn't get it because Arkenstone gets buried with Thorin.
In the book Thror's greed comes from his ring of power. The only mention of dragon-sickness is when the Master takes his share of the gold and runs away with it.
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CathrineB
Rohan
Jun 6 2015, 10:11pm
Post #5 of 35
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I thought there were perhaps a difference between gold sickness and dragon sickness?
Thror had gold sickness? Smaug too I assume because shiny things and dragons = sick dude.
And after dragon has rolled around in it for how many years it'll eventually.. I don't actually know. 
Is there a difference between gold sickness or dragon sickness or just different names to it?
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Brandybuckled
Lorien
Jun 6 2015, 10:15pm
Post #6 of 35
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Then Bilbo should have had the sickness and Thorin should have been symptom-free when Bilbo took it away from the mountain.
NAArP: Not An Ardent purist since Arda was dented
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 6 2015, 10:37pm
Post #7 of 35
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It has nothing to do with Smaug in person (or in dragon)...
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...it's about having the same attitude to treasure as a dragon - any dragon. The desire to possess the treasure for its own sake, not for use.
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 6 2015, 10:37pm
Post #8 of 35
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No, because hobbits are resilient...
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And the Arkenstone was driving Thorin mad because it was rightfully his - Smaug says the Arkenstone would drive him mad and Balin says that possessing it would make him worse.
Bard on the other-hand should have been affected. Hmm...
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 6 2015, 10:44pm
Post #9 of 35
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Just different names, I think....
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But there's a difference shown between two forms of greed. Smaug being a dragon is drawn to the treasure in the Mountain and wants to possess it. It's no use to him. He can't eat it or go out and spend it, he just wants it and he won't part with a single piece. Thror and Thorin were affected by the hoard in the same way - hence 'dragon sickness'.
Like him or hate him, Alfrid in the film has a different type of greed. when he takes the money he's thinking of what he can do with it. The suggestion is that if he can get away he'll use it to set himself up somewhere.
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Brandybuckled
Lorien
Jun 6 2015, 11:29pm
Post #11 of 35
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Maybe it only works on dwarves. 
NAArP: Not An Ardent purist since Arda was dented
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lionoferebor
Rohan
Jun 7 2015, 12:57am
Post #12 of 35
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It's called that because it causes one to desire gold, as much as a dragon.
and Bilbo hints at this in the prologue of AUJ when he says, "...a dragon covets gold with a dark and fierce desire."
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jun 7 2015, 1:05am
Post #13 of 35
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But not everything has to be taken that literally...
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 7 2015, 5:23am
Post #14 of 35
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Tolkien coined the term 'dragon-sickness'
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Peter Jackson expanded the meaning of the term. The way Tolkien used dragon-sickness was to describe the curse laid on a treasure that has long been in a dragon's possession. Jackson provided a second definition of a dragon-like obsession with gold and treasure that does not require an actual dragon. However, we can speculate that Thror's greed was enhanced by his possession of one of the Seven Dwarf Rings.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 7 2015, 5:24am)
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jun 7 2015, 5:54am
Post #15 of 35
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Isn't the idea of greed/gold sickness more to do with a certain weakness of character?
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Leaving the Dwarf ring issue aside - Thorin had his father's ring anyway - the dragon sickness affected the Master because of his weak, greedy nature character, and Thorin because of his pride and also he coveted the Arkenstone above all the rest of the treasure, which is why Bilbo thought he could be persuaded to make a deal for it. Bilbo and Bard weren't affected because they were more selfless characters concerned with doing what was right and helping those in need.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 7 2015, 6:19am
Post #16 of 35
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In the films this doesn't become an issue with the Master of Lake-town or Bard. Neither come into contact with the treasure, although we do know that the Master (an Alfrid) is an inherently greedy character.
By the way, Thorin never possessed Thrain's Ring; in the films and in the book it was taken after Thrain was captured. The Dwarf Ring ended up in the possession of Sauron.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Jun 7 2015, 6:45am
Post #17 of 35
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Bilbo and Bard weren't affected because they were more selfless characters concerned with doing what was right and helping those in need.
It may also have something to do with them being a hobbit and a human. As dwarves have a natural tendency to value precious metals and jewels with greater passion than other races, they were probably more vulnerable to gold sickness.
I see Thorin as someone who also cared greatly about others - mainly his own people, but he was concerned about their welfare and devoted his time in exile to improving the life of others. I think it was his dwarvish nature combined with the desire for the Arkenstone as the symbol for the king's status (and then the first glimpse of the treasury after Smaug's demise) that twisted his mind and eventually let gold sickness take hold.
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jun 7 2015, 6:49am
Post #18 of 35
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Yeah, just realized I missed out the word "never" in my sentence about Thorin and the Ring!
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Should proof read more diligently before posting!
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 7 2015, 12:02pm
Post #19 of 35
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Greed is a character flaw that creates vulnerability...
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Dwarves are naturally greedy, so this was magnified by the ring. Thror became unnaturally greedy because of his ring. Thrain became greedy after receiving the ring from Thror, and then went mad when the ring was forced from him. The Master was an inherently greedy man, so was more susceptible to "dragon sickness".
Thorin was not presented as insane or suffering from sickness in the books. That's a movie invention, he was just proud of his bloodline and, as a dwarf, had a fondness for treasure - This quest was important to Thorin on so many levels that when he got to the Mountain he did everything he could to preserve what he had gained.
That's what makes the book so much more powerful than the film. In the book Thorin's greed does not have a cause, it's just in his character, all the consequences are his fault, and he learns his mistake too late. In the film it's not really his fault, he's given an excuse by suffering from an (inherited?) 'illness', which diminishes his final words and makes it seem as though Thorin didn't really learn anything.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 7 2015, 2:02pm
Post #20 of 35
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Thorin was not presented as insane or suffering from sickness in the books. That's a movie invention, he was just proud of his bloodline and, as a dwarf, had a fondness for treasure - This quest was important to Thorin on so many levels that when he got to the Mountain he did everything he could to preserve what he had gained.
The mere fact that Tolkien brings up the matter of dragon-sickness suggests that it might be a factor influencing Thorin's behavior. I'm not saying that it would have been the only or even chief one, but I do think that dragon-sickness was affecting Thorin even in the book.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 8 2015, 10:45am
Post #21 of 35
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I agree with your disagreement.
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"Bilbo kept his head more clear of the bewitchment of the hoard than the dwarves did"
and
"The enchanted desire of the hoard had fallen from Bilbo"
and especially
"But also he [Bilbo - in reference to Thorin] did not reckon with the power that gold has upon which a dragon has long brooded, nor with dwarvish hearts"
I think the notion that there is no suggestion of this in the text is a tricky one to argue.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 8 2015, 2:18pm
Post #22 of 35
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Those passages from Tolkien's texts do make the situation much more clear.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Arannir
Valinor
Jun 8 2015, 3:09pm
Post #23 of 35
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Thorin was not presented as insane or suffering from sickness in the books. That's a movie invention, he was just proud of his bloodline and, as a dwarf, had a fondness for treasure - This quest was important to Thorin on so many levels that when he got to the Mountain he did everything he could to preserve what he had gained.
... and making it a mere "curse" really flattens Thorin as a character, imho.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 8 2015, 4:09pm
Post #24 of 35
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Spriggan made the case that Tolkien actually did lay the ground-work for Thorin succumbing to dragon-sickness. That is not to say that the seeds were not already there within him. Of course they were.
...[Bilbo] did not reckon with the power that gold has upon which a dragon has long brooded, nor with dwarvish hearts. Long hours in the past days Thorin had spent in the treasury, and the lust of it was heavy upon him. Though he had hunted chiefly for the Arkenstone, yet he had an eye for many another wonderful thing that was lying there, about which were wound old memories of the labours and the sorrows of his race.
It seems to be that Jackson has this passage in mind when Bilbo greets Fili, Kili, Oin and Bofur upon their arrival at Erebor--and when Bard calls for a parley at the Front Gate.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Arannir
Valinor
Jun 8 2015, 4:15pm
Post #25 of 35
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I don't like it whether book or not ;)
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"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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