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Arandir
Gondor
Jun 6 2015, 10:01am
Post #1 of 11
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BOTFA Moments: Too Fast too Furious
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I hate to nitpick. But it's always reassuring when someone else shares your thoughts on specific aspects of these movies that didn't quite float your boat.
General consensus among many is that the edit of The Battle of the Five Armies was too uneven: resulting in an unbalaced and non-rhythmic pacing.
3 moments that always seem jarring during my viewing of the film are the following:
- Post-Smaug Announcment: After Bilbo reports Smaug's death, it takes Gloin 3.5 seconds (I counted) to witness that birds are returning to the Mountain. It feels too quick; as if the scene itself is saying: "Okay this event is over, see? On to the next scene. Quickly now!"
- Percy Announcing Bard the Dragon-Slayer: No soon has Bard reunited with his children on the shores of the Long Lake, than Percy steps in to proclaim he killed the dragon: "It was Bard!". The music changes too abruptly and cannot hide the fact that this moment was edited in a rush, without giving us a moment to savour the idea that Bard has returned alive from the demise of the dragon.
- The Arrival of the Eagles: perhaps less subtle than the previous two, but the arrival of the eagles with the sudden surge in music feels somewhat off. No further comments added.
Now, I don't want to turn this thread into a nitpicking session to disassembled the film and present the less great moments; but I'm wondering whether others share similar thoughts on other events/moments during the film.
'A Tolkienist's Perspective' Blog
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(This post was edited by Arandir on Jun 6 2015, 10:01am)
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Noria
Gondor
Jun 6 2015, 12:14pm
Post #2 of 11
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I agree with your first moment.
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But the other two - the arrival of the Eagles and Percy's speech about Bard the Dragon-slayer both work fine for me.
The transition in BOTFA that bothers me the most is the one dormouse mentioned on another thread: right after the Dwarves pay homage to Thorin we get the fanfare from Dale, which is great. It's the abrupt shift from Dale to Bilbo's farewell that I find jarring.
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CathrineB
Rohan
Jun 6 2015, 1:20pm
Post #3 of 11
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The first one there - the whole scene was rather... "cold" and just because Thorin's becoming sick doesn't mean the rest are. They're like "poor souls" - excuse me? That's it? You got four of your own down there. Two in your damn group has brothers in a town on fire along with two considered kids 
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Jun 6 2015, 1:45pm
Post #4 of 11
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i did not find any of the forementioned scenes to be particularly jarring during all my viewings of "The Battle of The Five Armies" That said, i have 3 gripes of my own, which i hope will be fixed with the upcoming Extended Edition:
1)The weird and at times bad editing of the main battle itself plus a lack of clear resolution of it.
2)The absence of resolution concerning three side-plots of the film such as: The fate of the Arkenstone, the mountain gold, and who is in charge of Erebor after all the things have ended.
3)The at times intrusive appearance of Alfrid. I like the character and the actor very much but i felt he was given more than enough screen time without even seeing what happened of him. I am aware of the fact that no Extended Edition can fix his intrusive appearance especially in the second half of the film, but with the potential adding of scenes that satisfy and eliminate my first two gripes, this can be overlooked(i hope)
My personal consensus after having seen the Hobbit trilogy many times is that DOS EE remains the strongest of the three Hobbit films(that may still change) and AUJ is my least favourite not only of the Hobbit films, but the Middle Earth series in general. I still maintain my opinion that AUJ is the film that tarnished the reputation of the Hobbit trilogy amongs the critics.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
(This post was edited by NecromancerRising on Jun 6 2015, 1:48pm)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 6 2015, 2:18pm
Post #5 of 11
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Well this is where some acting comes in
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I agree - Balin's comment just really doesn't seem like something Balin would say. But then the camera goes to Gloin (just briefly, I admit), and like Thorin he's not looking at the town, and he seems upset. Well of course, his brother is down there! Then it goes to Bifur and Bombur, and Bombur has a look of shock and horror in his eyes. (Poor Stephen Hunter, he had so much prosthetic on his face that his buggy eyes was all he could do.) Their reaction is the main reason I question whether Thorin was even thinking of his nephews - yes, he's happy/relieved to hear Smaug is dead, but then gets this determined look when the dwarves mention that "word will spread", etc. and charges back into Erebor. Gloin's comments about the Ravens echo the earlier comment by Oin about Ravens returning to Erebor in Bag End - "Ravens have been seen returning to the mountain." In the scene the Ravens are flying to Ravenhill specifically - I personally think yes, they'd been hovering nearby, and yeah somehow sensed the Dragon was gone. I mean, if they are smart enough to convey information between Thorin and Dain, I guess they could clue in on that as well.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 6 2015, 2:46pm
Post #6 of 11
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Everything is rushed to get quickly to the next scene, yet the films are too long? Even with all this rushing around the we still need three movies, imagine how many there'd be if they stopped to breathe.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Jun 6 2015, 2:47pm)
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Never_Underestimate_A_Dwarf
Rivendell
Jun 6 2015, 2:48pm
Post #7 of 11
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What was cut from botfa could probably be an entire film in itself.
The most jarring scene for me is, about one minute after the company charges out of Erebor (which was a highlight of the film but cut way too short, especially when PJ promised "hero moments" for all the dwarves during the battle) we have Thorin's "let's get Azog" speech and then suddenly he and Fili, Kili, and Dwalin are riding on rams.
The editing is so abrupt here. I know the chariot scene was cut, but was there no way to add 10 seconds that made sense? Where did the rams come from? Did the others hear of Thorin's plan and follow or did he ask them to come? The battle must not have been too intense if Thorin can converse with Dain in the middle of it. But we don't see anything else going on.
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Bishop
Gondor
Jun 6 2015, 5:04pm
Post #8 of 11
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I feel this way about the whole film
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Which is not to say I don't totally enjoy the entertainment value. I've watched BOTFA and it's terrific eyecandy.
There are gaps all over the place though. So much so that I wonder if they really had a solid plan going into filming or if they just shot as much as they could and then tried to figure out how it fit together later. For example what's the point of showing the women talking about taking up arms to fight along side the men if you're not going to show it? Was there ever really a plan for Radagast and Beorn?
There are other oddities. Like the scene where someone says "Aren't we going to fight?" and Thorin says to stand down. The entire exchange is dubbed in, or manufactured. No one is on screen actually speaking the lines. It clearly wasn't filmed. But it's such an important moment, with the very first attack of the battle occurring. Just seems strange to me.
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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Jun 8 2015, 3:38am
Post #9 of 11
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I have said it before in other threads, but I honestly feel that the editing being so tight actually causes the entire narrative to come apart. The movie does not make much sense unless the viewer is already aware of the story and fills in many of the gaps for them-self.
That being said, even for a movie with such a fast pace that races through events, I think there are a few times where it is even more glaringly obvious that scenes are missing.
The first place I noticed this is right at the beginning during Smaug's attack on Lake Town. Several shots of the dragon attacking the city seem abruptly cut short. The film cuts away from what is happening on screen at a very unnatural point in the on-screen action several times, almost the way PJ tends to do in say the prologue, where you know he is purposely teasing and withholding the really cool looking shots for later. Also, the attack really escalates from Smaug's opening salvo to full blown fiery apocalypse in mere seconds and between shots. It just doesn't feel natural or satisfying to me.
The next place I really got the impression that scenes were missing is during fight at Dol Guldor, particularly when Sauron shows up. I cannot put my finger on exactly what is missing from the sequence, but it feels *extremely* choppy and disjointed to me, and it does not at all to me feel like what the filmmakers had in mind or were trying to convey with the scene. I had the same impression of Gandalf's trip to Dol Guldor and subsequent battle with Sauron in the last film as well, and it wasn't until seeing the extended version with Thrain that I understood what was missing.
I feel I should point out that at the end of the day, Thrain really didn't bring anything to the story, as they never followed through on any of the father-son dynamic that it seemed like they were introducing. So cutting Thrain from the film wasn't necessarily a bad decision in and of itself - but simply going back into scenes that were filmed with him in them and using CGI to delete him and then add all sorts of other action on top to mask that something is missing does not work either. The DP frames scenes and moves the camera a certain way for a reason, so just deleting a character who was present with CGI makes for sloppy and confusing shots that don't really make sense.
The cut from the dwarves celebrating being reunited inside Erebor to the fairly obviously CGI dwarves searching the gold piles for the Arkenstone also seems extremely abrupt to me and gives the impression that something is definitely missing.
The entire climax of the battle is a disjointed mess and the majority of what happens to the parties involved is never shown or explained. I had never noticed before what Bishop pointed out regarding the whole debate about going over the wall being dubbed in after the fact. You really don't see any of the characters saying any of the lines.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jun 8 2015, 4:36am
Post #10 of 11
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These things remind me of the scenes with Arwen and Elrond in RotK, which I'm still annoyed by. It's always been painfully obvious to me that those scenes weren't originally supposed to be together as one long sequence. It quickly goes from Arwen confronting her father to her standing over Narsil, which is fine, but then they both go through a sudden costume change. And Arwen is holding a book that's obviously supposed to have some sort of significance that is never explained. Apparently there's a library scene that PJ didn't feel like adding in the EE for some unexplained reason. The Arwen subplot is probably one of the weakest parts of RotK in my opinion, but I'd rather have a more fleshed out version of it than the truncated version that ended up in both editions of the movie.
As for BotFA, the scene with the dwarves searching for the Arkenstone is obviously not where it was originally supposed to be. Notice Thorin's sudden costume change from the previous scene. Kingly robes to Lake-town outfit, and then back to kingly robes in the next scene. This was probably supposed to be before Kili, Fili, Oin, and Bofur returned, and I bet Thorin's "everything I did, I did for them" line was supposed to be part of it. I'm crossing my fingers for this to be changed in the EE.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 8 2015, 1:40pm
Post #11 of 11
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Which is not to say I don't totally enjoy the entertainment value. I've watched BOTFA and it's terrific eyecandy.
There are gaps all over the place though. So much so that I wonder if they really had a solid plan going into filming or if they just shot as much as they could and then tried to figure out how it fit together later. For example what's the point of showing the women talking about taking up arms to fight along side the men if you're not going to show it? Was there ever really a plan for Radagast and Beorn?
There are other oddities. Like the scene where someone says "Aren't we going to fight?" and Thorin says to stand down. The entire exchange is dubbed in, or manufactured. No one is on screen actually speaking the lines. It clearly wasn't filmed. But it's such an important moment, with the very first attack of the battle occurring. Just seems strange to me.
I love BOT5A and watch it repeatedly, eye candy is a good term, but it is choppy and incoherent. The other two movies are much stronger, even though DoS also felt rushed in places the story was still solid.
And yeah, that line "I'm going over the wall, who's with me?" I can understand why the camera lingered on Thorin, because his expression was one of selfishness that only RA can deliver, yet EVERYONE wants to know who's speaking! Pretty sure it's Fili, but would a quick close-up have been so much? You're probably right about it all being dubbed in afterwards. PJ is NOTORIOUS for changing his mind, often in the middle of filming, so no solid plan but he usually has enough stuff that he can make it work anyway. I blame it on that insisted 141 minute runtime, it was just not enough time for PJ to get the job done. It must be frustrating for PJ to constantly hear "Well, maybe they'll fix that in the EE."
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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