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DainPig
Gondor
Jun 5 2015, 5:33pm
Post #1 of 12
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Respect to the king Thorin
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I was wondering why anyone characteres on the trilogy don't has a little respect to the king under the mountain.
All the characters calls Thorin by his name, instead of "Sire", "Lord" or "My King".
Why?
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 5 2015, 5:38pm
Post #2 of 12
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I don't know if this is in the book or just the cartoon...
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But the cartoon has a moment where Bilbo is bewildered by the sudden respect Thorin gains when he's king. He sees Balin call him "king" and be very formal with him and Bilbo responds with "It's just Thorin". I think that's a great concept, that the dwarves have this formality and respect for power that Bilbo, with his simple pleasures, just cannot grasp.
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 5 2015, 5:51pm
Post #4 of 12
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True, he would have been "Lord of Erebor"
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Just as Balin was "Lord of Moria" because the colony was too small for a kingship.
But surely even that warrants some level of respect.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 5 2015, 6:14pm
Post #5 of 12
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The other dwarves do show him a lot of respect....
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... think of the moment in AUJ when Balin has just told the story of Thorin at the Battle of Azanulbizar. But Dwalin has obviously grown up with him, Balin has known him since he was young, Fili and Kili are his nephews and Dain is his cousin. I'm not sure that we hear any of the dwarves from Thorin's company call him by name at all, do we?
Another point may be in the way the script is written. When Thorin is in the grip of Smaug's gold he wears the crown and full regalia and becomes very conscious of his position - "am I not the King?". When he breaks free from the dragon sickness he throws the crown and the robes away and walks back to his company as Thorin. They may have chosen not to use his title at all to emphasise the fact that when he is just himself he is more of a king than he is when he wears the crown. In contrast the only person who uses "Sire" in the film is Alfrid, grovelling to Bard.
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
Jun 5 2015, 7:25pm
Post #6 of 12
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Thorin ones in mirkwood when the elves have taken them
"Thorin where's Bilbo?"
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 5 2015, 9:35pm
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They call him Thorin in Mirkwood and during the barrel scene - of course, a few of the dwarves don't have any lines, LOL! Balin says "there is one I could call 'King'", and Dwalin introduces him as "Thorin, son of Thrain, son of Thror," so it's there, even if they don't say "King Under the Mountain." Also, when Thorin enters Bag End the dwarves bow. And Balin refers to the group as "the Company of Thorin Oakenshield."
But I guess when they're traveling in the wild and roughing it, it's a little less formal - probably a good idea. You're right though about how he acts in Erebor. Dwalin tells him "You were always my King, you used to know that once," and of course "you are lesser now than you have ever been." It is said that if you have to ask (Am I not the King?), the answer is NO!
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 5 2015, 10:00pm
Post #8 of 12
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I couldn't remember whether they did or not. But I think it would have seemed a bit artificial if they had suddenly addressed Thorin by his title. And in the film script, as I said - Alfrid's the one who uses Sire, all the time to Bard, and it's so obviously insincere - perhaps also spiteful in intent, as he knows full well that Bard doesn't want all that.
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DainPig
Gondor
Jun 5 2015, 10:08pm
Post #9 of 12
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Dwalin screaming to his king? This is not respect....
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At no time in the trilogy Thorin is called Lord....
How aaaaaaaaaaaaaare you all???
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jun 5 2015, 10:19pm
Post #10 of 12
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Bard: "My Lord, we have not come to rob you, but to seek fair settlement."
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Ilmatar
Rohan
Jun 5 2015, 10:28pm
Post #11 of 12
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Respect is not always shown by titles
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It seems to me that Thorin's status as a king (and respect for him as a king) is made most evident by the way that others behave towards him and around him. The moment he enters Bag End, Gandalf bows to him slightly and holds out his hand to invite him in; Dori and Ori bow to him as well - Dwalin doesn't , which maybe shows how close friend he is to Thorin, and also of the royal line of Durin. When Thorin talks to Bilbo, others keep a respectful distance while observing how their leader gets acquainted with the hobbit (the same, interested but discreet distance by the company is mirrored later in the mithril-gifting scene); he is naturally seated at the end of the table, and so forth.
While others may address him by his given name as if they were equals, Thorin's authority and standing is made evident by the behavior of others, instead of using royal titles (save for the most formal or ceremonial occasions and introductions, where it looks like he is as often presented as "Thorin, son of Thrain" as "King Under the Mountain").
I came across this article touching the status given to Thorin as king:
The dispossessed king no longer possesses automatic status. He is therefore compelled to display it by performance at every turn, to thrust it in the faces of those who question.
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About McKellen’s contribution to this interaction, Armitage has been quoted as saying:
"[Ian McKellen] did something on the first day, which I’ve never forgotten. You know, it’s all about status. It’s something every actor learns at drama school, but no one ever applies, because it means being selfless. Ian is a very selfless actor. When I walked in the door at Ba[g] End, Gandalf, this monumental figure for me, bowed his head to me in reverence to Thorin Oakenshield, the legendary warrior. And I remember thinking, “God, he’s giving me my status!” And from that point on I figured if Gandalf was giving it to me, then everyone else has to give it to me, and you don’t therefore have to play any false weight of status because it’s given to you. He completely understood that."
This quote points to an intriguing feature of Thorin and Gandalf’s relationship — that Gandalf belongs to a small group of characters (the other members of the Company included, at least as far as we’ve seen) for whom Thorin doesn’t necessarily have to perform his regal status aggressively. This contrast in status perception differentiates Thorin’s interactions with Gandalf from those with all of the other high-status characters of the piece (such as Elrond, or the Goblin King).
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 6 2015, 1:49am
Post #12 of 12
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because Thorin was acting very un-Thorin-like. As Thorin said to Bilbo, Dwalin was only doing what any friend would do. Seriously, I think the respect was there, even if Thorin was never called "King" or "Lord." Besides, while on the Quest they were all equals. One big difference between the book and the movie is just that, book Thorin DOES act kind of "Lordly" and sends people to do his bidding. OTOH, movie Thorin puts his men first, as demonstrated in AUJ when he stands on the rock and waits for everyone to jump down into the hidden passage before he jumps down. Or the way he helped rescue Bilbo. He has their respect because he EARNED it. He may be the heir to the Throne, but as the Goblin King said "you don't have a mountain, and you're not a King, which makes you - nobody, really." Well, clearly his men didn't feel that way, but like I said, he earned it.
And then it all went out the window in BOTFA.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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