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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Jun 4 2015, 6:02pm
Post #1 of 25
(1304 views)
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Revisiting TBOTFA After Some Time
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Having not watched the film for a while, I just popped the BOTFA DVD in last night to relax before bed. I actually find the film more frustrating and disappointing now than I did on initial release. The breakneck pace of the film really kills it for me. The story is given absolutely no time to breathe and I honestly feel like most of the connective tissue that holds the narrative together is sitting on the cutting room floor.
Most of the other problems I have with the film can be traced back to it being so tightly edited. The film focuses far too heavily on tertiary at best characters like Alfrid and Legolas, yet this is something that would have been balanced out by spending more time with the important characters such as the dwarves of the company or even Gandalf.
I remember hearing that they were changing the name of the film from "There and Back Again" to "The Battle of the Five Armies" and thinking to myself that while this is probably not going to be the thoughtful and subtle type of film that I really love, at least we'll get to see an amazing battle visualized on screen. Once the battle gets going, both the battle itself and the film named after it fall apart into a disjointed mess. Entire armies disappear completely, and others are apparently defeated so quickly and easily that the viewer is left to wonder why such a big deal was made of them at all. This caught me off guard as I thought for sure PJ would at least knock the battle out of the park. Again, I attribute this back to the pace of the film, as I am sure there are many, many unused scenes that show what actually happened during the battle.
Two hours would usually be far more than enough time to tell this same story in an entertaining way that also feels complete, but I honestly do not think PJ's filmmaking style works at all when runtime restraints are places after the fact. He writes and shoots scenes that tend to run very long, and is then forced to cut entire sequences to get the runtime down. I personally feel that the sequences he chooses to leave in for the most part are highly questionable, especially for this third film, but I know that is a matter of personal opinion.
I know many of us are probably placing far too many expectations onto the extended edition of this last film, but without getting into my personal wish-list of things that I hope make the cut, I really just hope the extended edition feels like a complete story unfolding in a natural, satisfying and entertaining manner.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jun 4 2015, 11:01pm
Post #2 of 25
(1093 views)
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Agree with everything you say – but I don't hold out much hope for the EE, since there would be so much to fix to make this film satisfactory.
I'm really sorry that so much potential – and so much that is good about these films – has been drowned out by some very inappropriate material and odd decisions that have nothing to do with even the spirit of Tolkien. What a 'progression' it has been for the ME films – from something really beautiful and astonishingly good (FoTR), to the final Hobbit film! (Although I would add that AUJ is probably my second choice after FotR, because I really love some of the acting and feel that the film has a heart.)
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 4 2015, 11:28pm
Post #3 of 25
(1082 views)
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I agree with your opinion so much!
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FotR is the best and they just decreased in quality with each instalment.
I think with AUJ, the way the story was handled and the great performances really bump it up as something that (could have) been really respectful to the book, almost on the scale that FotR achieved. But the overall "quirky" tone and aesthetic of the film, just makes it feel odd. The representation of characters, like most of the dwarves and Radagast, are really concerning, and the focus on cartoony action- well, we know all these criticisms. But the story itself is told really well and had it looked and felt more "real?" it could have easily reached LotR's level of quality. But all things considered it falls just below RotK for me. 
I still enjoy watching them all. But I also enjoy watching that 1966 ash-can Hobbit, so my standards aren't particularly high. But enjoying a film and evaluating its subjective 'quality' are two separate things.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Jun 4 2015, 11:31pm)
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jun 4 2015, 11:49pm
Post #4 of 25
(1059 views)
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FotR is the best and they just decreased in quality with each instalment.
You know, even though it is a long time ago now since I first saw FotR, I can still remember being absolutely blown over and flattened by it. That thrilling Prologue, for example… It wasn't a film, but a magical experience for me, one that I'd never encountered with any film before that. It's a very important part of my life, for several reasons.
And LotR in general achieved such great things even though on the whole it didn't have actors of the calibre of the ones in the Hobbit (apart from the two Sir Ians). Even the music, for me, just suits the films SO well, and is so recognisably a signature for the films (not the case with the music for the last trilogy, however accomplished it is, apart from in the case of the Misty Mountains song).
Anyway, just thought I'd say that…
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Thrain II
Lorien
Jun 5 2015, 12:49am
Post #5 of 25
(1034 views)
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with everything said above!
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DanielLB
Immortal
Jun 5 2015, 6:31am
Post #6 of 25
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I re-watched the movie the other day too.
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I felt like I had been whining about The Battle of the Five Armies too much on the forum recently, so the other day I decided to re-watch the movie and stay open-minded.
I had to switch it off.
And that's a real shame. The movie contains some of the very best from 'the team' (Smaug-Bard showdown, the last 10 minutes etc.), but also the absolute worst (Alfrid, Alfrid, and more Alfrid.) At times it is the best of all six movies, but the rest of the time it's unbearable. It is like someone has sewn together the very best bits from The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit movies together with terrible alterations to produce the film. (Basically what Glorfindela said: I'm really sorry that so much potential – and so much that is good about these films – has been drowned out by some very inappropriate material and odd decisions that have nothing to do with even the spirit of Tolkien.) AUJ and DOS were good movies and good adaptations. BO5A is a terrible movie and an even worse adaptation.
I largely agree with what you have said. I expect the extended edition to be more-of-the-same. The additional footage won't fix the film. I don't think the extended editions for the two previous movies completed them either.
(This post was edited by DanielLB on Jun 5 2015, 6:33am)
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Arannir
Valinor
Jun 5 2015, 7:40am
Post #7 of 25
(935 views)
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Agree with everything you say – but I don't hold out much hope for the EE, since there would be so much to fix to make this film satisfactory.
Though if there is only one scene on the level of the final ten minutes or, speaking of EEs, the Beorn EE scenes, at least there would be some more scenes to watch every now and then (I have found none of the Hobbit movies to have a particularly great re-watch value... with the possible exception of AUJ).
The documentaries are really what makes these EEs of TH worth it...
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 5 2015, 1:03pm
Post #8 of 25
(886 views)
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And I find I enjoy it more and notice more with each repeat viewing...
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Not that I love everything about it, but the awkward moments are so far outweighed by the good that I just let them go. There is so much there of real drama, heartbreaking visual beauty, real sensitivity to the story and the characters.
Like you I find the tight cut and the pace puzzling. It sets the film apart from the other five and I can't understand the insistence on making this a shorter film. More time, I think, would have ironed out a lot of the complaints people have about it. But I can't change that and reckon I'm in a fortunate position in that I can look forward to the EE without wanting it to 'fix' anything. I just want more of a film I already love.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 5 2015, 1:50pm
Post #9 of 25
(863 views)
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Once again, bomby will agree w/ darling dmouse
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Some of this disappointment could come from:
1. Extremely High Expectations that weren't met.
2. The Frustration of a few "Must See" scenes that
Remain UN-seen { ie. "The Funeral" }
3. A featured player no one really likes, Alfrid.
Agreed, he is a despicable character, like Wormtongue.
4. The Thrill is gone.
Last Christmas season with its Celebratory Atmosphere
of the many Holidays, isn't here any more to Cheer things up.
5, Real life has settled
down...
doubts &
disappointment always
drag people
down.
6. Each summer? this stage DOES arrive before the Extended Edition.
7. Each time, when the ...
Extended Edition DOES come out many people
Finally feel
Full-Filled with a
Fully Realized
Finished Product.
8. WE have 30 to maybe 40 minutes to look FORWARD to!!..
which just might Solve the strange Riddle of BOT5A..?
SSOoo..just keep hope-ing that PJ's Final Adventure in MiddleEARTH
Actually is THE BEST of the 6.
As Aragorn said? just before the Suicide Battle of Helm's Deep
"There is always HOPE"
SSOoo little ol' bomby will
HOLD
Hope really close to my
Heart.
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on Jun 5 2015, 1:51pm)
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Goldeneye
Lorien
Jun 5 2015, 2:01pm
Post #10 of 25
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Many of you who seem to give the same critiques of these films (amazing moments surrounded by awful ones, etc), should really look into some of the fanedits floating around right now. They can't fix everything, but almost all of them have cut out the bits that people complain about the most (Tauriel, Alfrid, cartoonish/toilet humor). I would recommend avoiding The Tolkien Edit and David Killstein's There and Back Again since they both used a pirated copy of BOFA for their fanedits.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jun 5 2015, 3:26pm
Post #11 of 25
(820 views)
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1. I don't believe in them (for reasons that have been gone into ad nauseum in discussions on this forum in the past, which I do not wish to engage in again).
2. I do not think cutting bits out would fix the problems, given that there are so many key explanations, scenes and character explorations missing. This is the aspect of the films that bothers ME the most. I could list the many things that I feel are missing, but again, it's been done before and I don't feel like regurgitating the same points (again).
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 5 2015, 3:33pm
Post #12 of 25
(802 views)
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Still not on the rollercoaster
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I realise that perhaps this is an indication of dullness on my part, but my own views remain remarkably consistent. I think now what I thought when I first saw the film - generally I enjoyed it and specifically I enjoyed it more than AUJ and less than DOS. I seem to have avoided the experience of repeatedly returning the film to discover that I suddenly like it, then dislike it, then like it again etc.
I do note that there is a lot of language used about comparing the film to "what it could have been", and I wonder if that plays a role? My own view is that a film is what it is. We can vaguely imagine hypothetical alternatives to any film which we imagine would be better (or versions which we imagine would be worse). I don't think it's awfully useful.
I'm happy to compare films, but to other films which exist, not those which are only imagined. A film is a real-world artifact, after all. As such, when I compare and rate a film, such as BOFA, to other versions of TH or examples of the genre, perhaps this generates a less variable response?
(This post was edited by Spriggan on Jun 5 2015, 3:36pm)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 5 2015, 3:40pm
Post #13 of 25
(791 views)
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HOW in the World can...
Someone with editing
Software alone
Simply assume their
Story would be BETTER?
SEEMS
Somewhat arrogant to Bomby.
THUMBS down on FanEDITS
Personal opinion only &
not meant to hurt
anyone's feelings...
Copyrights are just THAT
PJ was given the RIGHT to adapt The Hobbit.
PLEASE...Just Leave it @ that...
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jun 5 2015, 3:41pm
Post #14 of 25
(790 views)
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Why is it that every time I read one of your post, I feel that it is Tolkien speaking?
Must be your avatar (and the fact that you always talk sense).
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 5 2015, 3:56pm
Post #15 of 25
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It might go Back to the Fact
That for 49 years
{1966 AD} ..of
Reading &
Re-Reading him...
A certain part of
Bomby's Brain ...has adopted him..?
All, Hail JRRTolkien.!.!.!
"The Once & Future KING of Fantasy"
& His Prince Royal,
SIR Peter Jackson, esquire.
WHO are NOW, inseparable as "Twins from different Mothers"?
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on Jun 5 2015, 4:00pm)
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 5 2015, 4:02pm
Post #16 of 25
(767 views)
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She was replying to Daniel, Bomby. You have to follow the link.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 5 2015, 4:05pm
Post #17 of 25
(768 views)
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You do have a point, Spriggan.
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It's hard to appreciate the movie on its own merits (and it does have some!) if one is constantly dwelling on how much better it might have been. I know that I do it, but I try to see and acknowledge other perspectives.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 5 2015, 4:10pm
Post #18 of 25
(746 views)
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OKAY! fine in Flat mode it reads that way.//
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www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jun 5 2015, 4:29pm
Post #19 of 25
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I do appreciate DoS and the final film for what they are, absolutely. However, what I think is 'wrong' with them is that there are key elements missing and because of this certain things just don't make sense. There's also much superfluous stuff that doesn't add anything to the story and seems to have been inserted for 'fun', or as an attempt to broaden the audience (which didn't work, in my view). Had such extraneous stuff been omitted, perhaps we might have had a coherent , satisfactory story. It would not even have been too difficult to achieve this, given that there are three films and thus ample space to add explanations/finalise various strands/add more and better character development to several characters who are sadly lacking it.
Viewing the last two films in particular is therefore something of a frustrating experience, and this is part of the reason why so many people (who really wanted to like the films) are so disappointed.
It's hard to appreciate the movie on its own merits (and it does have some!) if one is constantly dwelling on how much better it might have been. I know that I do it, but I try to see and acknowledge other perspectives.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 5 2015, 5:14pm
Post #20 of 25
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There are certainly added elements in TH:BotFA that feel superfluous just as there are omissions that give me a lack of closure (largely dealing with Thorin's funeral and the disposition of both the treasure and the Arkenstone). It is entirely possible to identify objective flaws in the movie, but other perceived problems are more subjective and subject to discussion and debate.
I would never deny any of the above.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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brotherbeck
Rivendell
Jun 5 2015, 8:12pm
Post #21 of 25
(671 views)
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I honestly tried to watch it very objectively just as a film. I tried to let any of my personal baggage from being a fan of Tolkien's novel go and just let the movie play out and judge it on its own merits.
The tone of the film is wildly uneven, veering from some extremely silly humor that I personally feel falls flat and does not feel natural to this story, to other things that we are asked to take deadly seriously. The scene that comes to mind most is Alfrid Lickspittle dressed as a woman stuffing gold coins into his bra being intercut with the events on Ravenhill.
I personally feel it is a flat out stupid scene in every possible sense, but even if you are of the opinion that this is enjoyable, well-written humor, I can't for the life of me understand how an Oscar winning filmmaker would intercut this scene with the climactic events playing out on Ravenhill.
These are the scenes where the emotional journeys by all of our characters are coming to a head, and by cutting back to this scene PJ is saying that it is of equal importance. Keep in mind that at this time he is also choosing to not show us any scenes of the dwarves of the company, or of how the battle that the film is named after is playing out. I have heard the argument that this scene is intended to inject humor into the proceedings, but I think that idea at is completely misguided at this point in the story and I honestly feel it plays out about as naturally within the story as Peter Jackson stopping all of the action, turning the camera around onto himself and telling a dirty joke.
There is a lot of good about this film and the trilogy as a whole but unfortunately to me the bad is bad enough that it drags the whole thing down further than the good qualities can redeem it.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jun 5 2015, 10:11pm
Post #22 of 25
(617 views)
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Thoroughly agree with your assessment, which mirrors my own.
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Noria
Gondor
Jun 6 2015, 12:26pm
Post #23 of 25
(539 views)
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For the most part, I agree with dormouse and my opinion has changed little since December
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Not that I love everything about it, but the awkward moments are so far outweighed by the good that I just let them go. There is so much there of real drama, heartbreaking visual beauty, real sensitivity to the story and the characters.
Like you I find the tight cut and the pace puzzling. It sets the film apart from the other five and I can't understand the insistence on making this a shorter film. More time, I think, would have ironed out a lot of the complaints people have about it. But I can't change that and reckon I'm in a fortunate position in that I can look forward to the EE without wanting it to 'fix' anything. I just want more of a film I already love.
From the first time I saw it I really liked BOTFA but it is still my least favourite of the six movies, mostly for the reasons dormouse mentioned. If anything I like the movie better the more I watch it and overall the good far outweighs the bad for me.
I do hope that the EE will embellish and deepen some of the aspects that I don't think work as well as they could in the TE.
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CathrineB
Rohan
Jun 6 2015, 1:24pm
Post #24 of 25
(526 views)
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It's a frustrating movie because I enjoy a lot of it too. Some scenes are great and I love the soundtrack. But then there's the things that bugs me and those are big things 
It's frustrating because of the potential it had to be such an emotional heartwrenching movie and they didn't go with that. I understand that it would never ever be exactly like I imagined over and over in my head, but what we got was so far from the book. I know we got teeny weeny of the death scenes in the book - no wait, we don't get any death scene really, but I thought they would at least keep close to that, but they didn't. It could have been so epic!
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Eruonen
Half-elven
Jun 6 2015, 1:27pm
Post #25 of 25
(525 views)
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It is interesting that with my first viewing I came away thinking it was in the top 3
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of all LOTR/Hobbit films.....but since then, I have to say I like all of the LOTR films more than The Hobbit films (and that is not a bad thing as I fully expected it since the LOTR just had more to work with). I do like, for the most part, but with previously noted reservations, all of The Hobbit films. If some things were toned down or other things expanded, they would have scored higher for me. I do agree that the re-watchability is less for me than LOTR. There are some fine scenes, definitely, but as usual, the EE may make or break my opinion. It has the potential to raise the overall score.
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TOTALLY!!!! Glorfindela
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Thang you Berry Buch...
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