|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 3 2015, 6:31pm
Post #1 of 41
(1371 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Why did it take Fili, Kili and the others so long to reach Erebor?
|
Can't Post
|
|
BILBO: You need to leave. We all need to leave.
BOFUR: We only just got here.
BILBO: I've tried talking to him, but he won't listen.
OIN: What do you mean, laddie?
BILBO: Thorin! Thorin. Thorin. He's been down there for days.
Given the above exchange, how long must it have taken for the Dwarves who were left in Lake-town to reach the Lonely Mountain?
Thorin and Company left Lake-town the morning of the Dwarve's New Year and arrived at the Mountain late before the evening of the same day. Improbable, considering the distance covered and the modes of transportation used (it took them three days in the book), but that is the way Peter Jackson sets it up in the movie.
We see Fili, Kili, Oin and Bofur take a boat the morning after Smaug destroys Lake-town, but it seems to take them at elast three days to reach the Mountain. Why so long? Well, they are all exhausted from the ordeal of Smaug's attack. And they don't have any ponies to carry what baggage or supplies they could scavenge after they leave the boat (not that Thorin and the others were shown to have obtained ponies either!). More to the point, they were tired and poorly rested. So, perhaps a three-day journey is reasonable.
Comments? Opinions?
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Smaug the iron
Gondor
Jun 3 2015, 6:47pm
Post #2 of 41
(1274 views)
Shortcut
|
When Smaug left the mountain the company was in the mountain for one and a half day before trying to leave the mountain ( I don`t remember exactly how many days) but Bilbo believed it was more like a week maybe it is the same in the film.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 3 2015, 6:58pm
Post #3 of 41
(1268 views)
Shortcut
|
When Smaug left the mountain the company was in the mountain for one and a half day before trying to leave the mountain ( I don`t remember exactly how many days) but Bilbo believed it was more like a week maybe it is the same in the film.
That has no bearing here, though. No one cowered in the secret tunnel in the film. The company arrived at the Mountain on Durin's Day and Smaug attacked Lake-town that same night. The question is, how long did it take the others to arrive from Lake-town? Given the limited amount of food and supplies they could have had with them, it seems like it could be no more than three of four days. Even four days seems like too much considering how quickly Thorin and the others got there.
Honestly, Jackson just screwed-up the timing. We're told that the company arrives two days before Durin's Day. If they left the following morning then a two-day journey would have been fine and would have felt more realistic. And it might have given Kili another day to rest and recover.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Smaug the iron
Gondor
Jun 3 2015, 7:12pm
Post #4 of 41
(1253 views)
Shortcut
|
my point is that Bilbo exaggerated, it dident take longer for Fili, Kili, Bofur and Oin to reach Erabor than the company did.
|
|
|
CathrineB
Rohan
Jun 3 2015, 7:16pm
Post #5 of 41
(1252 views)
Shortcut
|
Doesn't Thorin and his Company leave Lake Town and arrive at the door of Erebor the same day? Doesn't he say something like "We must reach the mountain by sundown" and Kili woulld slow them down? Or am I messing up where these lines are being said?
Anyway in DOS I alway thought one day seemed a bit short for that distance? And by the looks of it Fili and that group seems to reach it the same day they leave too. Which of course doesn't add up to what Bilbo says about how much time has passed.
|
|
|
Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 3 2015, 7:23pm
Post #6 of 41
(1247 views)
Shortcut
|
To be honest, there's no reason to assume Smaug broke out and attacked Laketown on the same day. We don't know how long Bilbo searched for the Arkenstone, it could have been days. Movie-time is usually different from Real-time. It's like on another post where someone assumed Bilbo was saying goodbye to the Dwarves immediately after Thorin died. No reason to assume that at all. However, to answer your question, we only know that it was daylight when the Laketown 4 left Tauriel and Bard's daughters on the shore - we don't know if it was morning or afternoon. We DO know that Thorin and Co. took off ASAP, and arrived at the Overlook around mid-day. It's possible that the Laketown 4 didn't arrive on the other shore until closer to nightfall and made camp, setting out for Erebor the following day.
I know that's a stretch, and would give Thorin all of two days to "be down there." Most likely it ws a boo boo in the script.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
|
|
|
Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 3 2015, 7:29pm
Post #7 of 41
(1232 views)
Shortcut
|
|
They followed Legolas's map? /
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."
"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.
Ataahua's stories
|
|
|
dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 3 2015, 7:45pm
Post #8 of 41
(1229 views)
Shortcut
|
|
We don't know how long they took to row the length of the lake....
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
...or how easy they found it to land in a suitable place. Remember that's very rough, hilly ground - even though the Mountain itself is pretty hard to miss it may be harder to find the path up to it, Everest is even bigger but the first expedition (1921, I think) had major problems finding a route through the surrounding hills to the lower slopes. Perhaps the four dwarves had to try several paths before they found the right one: Oin might have been to Erebor before but the other three certainly haven't.
And do we know for sure that they started in the morning? It would appear to be the day after Smaug's attack but is there anything to indicate precisely how long they took to gather themselves together and decide what to do next but there must have been some debate as Tauriel knows what they're doing. They must surely have assumed that Smaug had killed the rest of the dwarves and Bilbo in the Mountain.
Next I would factor in Oin's age and Kili's leg. Both might slow them down. Kili was limping by the Lake shore and he didn't help row the boat. Maybe he found it hard going and the others had to stop to let him rest. They probably stopped to eat as well. Put all those things together and it could easily have taken them three or four days.
Meanwhile, back at the Mountain, Thorin seems to head for the treasure during the night - almost as soon as Smaug is seen to fall. And Bilbo says he isn't sleeping or eating, so he seems to have stayed there. If they reached the Mountain the same evening he'd have been there all day, by the next evening, two days, and so on.
I think it works.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 3 2015, 7:54pm
Post #9 of 41
(1217 views)
Shortcut
|
my point is that Bilbo exaggerated, it dident take longer for Fili, Kili, Bofur and Oin to reach Erabor than the company did.
No, I think it did. At least two or three days.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 3 2015, 8:04pm
Post #10 of 41
(1202 views)
Shortcut
|
Doesn't Thorin and his Company leave Lake Town and arrive at the door of Erebor the same day? Doesn't he say something like "We must reach the mountain by sundown" and Kili woulld slow them down? Or am I messing up where these lines are being said?
Yes. I said that. I think that the other four would have been traveling much more slowly.
Anyway in DOS I alway thought one day seemed a bit short for that distance? And by the looks of it Fili and that group seems to reach it the same day they leave too. Which of course doesn't add up to what Bilbo says about how much time has passed.
Even two days should have been pushing it. but would have seemed more credible. Lake-town to the Mountain should have been a journey of almost 50 miles, part of it by water, the rest on foot.
There is nothing visually indicating how long it took Fili, Kili and the others to arrive at Erebor. We just have Bilbo's words for context.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 3 2015, 8:16pm
Post #11 of 41
(1196 views)
Shortcut
|
To be honest, there's no reason to assume Smaug broke out and attacked Laketown on the same day. We don't know how long Bilbo searched for the Arkenstone, it could have been days. Movie-time is usually different from Real-time. It's like on another post where someone assumed Bilbo was saying goodbye to the Dwarves immediately after Thorin died. No reason to assume that at all. However, to answer your question, we only know that it was daylight when the Laketown 4 left Tauriel and Bard's daughters on the shore - we don't know if it was morning or afternoon. We DO know that Thorin and Co. took off ASAP, and arrived at the Overlook around mid-day. It's possible that the Laketown 4 didn't arrive on the other shore until closer to nightfall and made camp, setting out for Erebor the following day.
I know that's a stretch, and would give Thorin all of two days to "be down there." Most likely it ws a boo boo in the script.
The four Dwarves are definitely leaving on the morning after the ruin of Lake-town. Folk are still struggling ashore and Bard hasn't even reappeared yet.
Also, Bilbo was making far too much noise to avoid Smaug's attention for very long Our Hobbit was not in the dragon's lair for more than a few hours tops.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 3 2015, 8:23pm
Post #12 of 41
(1181 views)
Shortcut
|
Well, the dragon attacked at night and survivors were still struggling ashore when the Dwarves left. Given that it was the cusp of winter, any folk left in the water for much longer would have drowned or succumbed to hypothermia. And the four are leaving at just about the same time that Bard reappears.
I wrote myself that they would be traveling slower than the company because of exhaustion and Kili's injury. That all by itself suggests that they couldn't make the trip in a single day. Two days travel, minimum; three more likely. I doubt that they had enough food for four days, but they might have been able to push through anyway.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 3 2015, 11:30pm
Post #13 of 41
(1111 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Bomby Always thinks of this Movie
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
As a "Highlight REEL"
There is No reason to
show the Boring parts.
That's why some of the timelines
Seem Sorta Screwed-UP.
This is Not a documentary
It's a
Fantasy
Film, SSOoo..let it
Flow
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 3 2015, 11:40pm
Post #14 of 41
(1106 views)
Shortcut
|
Prof. Tolkien understood that even a fantasy for children has to be at least a bit grounded in the real world. He paid attention to such details as time, distance and even the phases of the moon. When the story is intended for an older audience, attention to detail is even more important.
Much of the movies do skip over the boring parts and we can assume that more time passes than is apparent. However, the company's journey from Esgaroth to the Lonely Mountain is fairly straightforward. We are told outright that that they are leaving on Durin's Day.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
lionoferebor
Rohan
Jun 3 2015, 11:49pm
Post #15 of 41
(1105 views)
Shortcut
|
Movie-time is usually different from Real-time. Another example is Company's journey through Mirkwood. When watching the film it appears that they enter Mirkwood, encounter the spiders, and are captured by the Elves all in one day. However, PJ says in the commentaries from the time the Company enters Mirkwood to the moment they are caught by the Elves is actually a few days.
So it is possible the Laketown four may have taken a few days to reach Erebor, considering where they landed on the shore and that Kili - due to his injury - may have slowed them down.
|
|
|
Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 4 2015, 12:55am
Post #16 of 41
(1091 views)
Shortcut
|
Honestly don't think you can apply
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Scientific Method to much of Tolkien..
Immortal elves live very Slowly for thousands of years,
Dwarves live for a couple of hundred years,
Wizards live for many Ages...
. . . . . . . .
EVEN Shadowfax..?.. WAS, the Father of ALL Horses...?
That's why Bomby likes it!
& therefore doesn't EVEN
try............. to ANALYSE .
it.
Bomby doesn't think ..Tolkien's KIDS!
DID..either..
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on Jun 4 2015, 12:59am)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 4 2015, 3:19am
Post #17 of 41
(1065 views)
Shortcut
|
That's not what I was saying, Bomby. I mean that even a fantasy story shouldn't play too fast and loose with the normal, everyday stuff. Cows still have to be milked. People still have to grow crops. And it takes time to travel by foot.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 4 2015, 3:26am
Post #18 of 41
(1064 views)
Shortcut
|
Another example is Company's journey through Mirkwood. When watching the film it appears that they enter Mirkwood, encounter the spiders, and are captured by the Elves all in one day. However, PJ says in the commentaries from the time the Company enters Mirkwood to the moment they are caught by the Elves is actually a few days.
Possibly much more than a few days (especially including the company's time in the Woodland Realm). It seems to take the company longer to reach Lake-town in the films than in the book. Bilbo and the others left Bag End at the end of April. In Tolkien's legendarium, they arrive in Esgaroth on September 22, Bilbo's birthday. In TH:DoS they arrive in Lake-town just two days before the Dwarve's New Year, presumably in mid- or late-October. In both versions the company was in Rivendell on Midsummer Eve, so much of the extra time must have been in Mirkwood or with the Wood-elves.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 4 2015, 7:13am
Post #20 of 41
(1034 views)
Shortcut
|
If we are after an "in-story" connection then Kili's injury seems the list obvious. In addition to the things you mention, there isn't any particular time we would have to assume for getting someone wounded across a distance.
But, more to the point, this isn't a question on which there hangs any importance. The duration of the travel isn't presented as being of note or impact by the films.
|
|
|
Noria
Gondor
Jun 4 2015, 12:54pm
Post #21 of 41
(961 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Otaku-sempai, while I don't entirely disagree with you,
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Peter Jackson has played fast and loose with time-lines and geography since FotR.
Few film biographies and movies based on historical events are completely accurate since, as it seems to me, most film makers are more interested in emotional and symbolic truths than in what actually occurred. Apply that to these Middle-Earth movies and PJ is no different.
I decided back in 2001 not to worry about it. Tolkien cared about these things, PJ doesn’t. Both approaches work for me.
|
|
|
Glorfindela
Valinor
Jun 4 2015, 1:28pm
Post #22 of 41
(934 views)
Shortcut
|
I'd say few if any descriptions of 'historical events', whether in film, historical novels or history books are 'completely accurate'. History books and documentary films may well have accurate facts, particularly when they are based on film footage – but even this can easily be tampered with, particularly today, when every Tom, Dick and Harry is a 'film editor'. And writers will inevitably slant their texts according to their own biases and the need to make money…
Films that purportedly are based on 'real events', are even less likely to be even remotely 'accurate' (I'd classify most of them as fantasies, or bordering on fantasies).
Few film biographies and movies based on historical events are completely accurate since, as it seems to me, most film makers are more interested in emotional and symbolic truths than in what actually occurred.
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Jun 4 2015, 1:31pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 4 2015, 2:44pm
Post #23 of 41
(905 views)
Shortcut
|
...more to the point, this isn't a question on which there hangs any importance. The duration of the travel isn't presented as being of note or impact by the films.
The question is more of a matter of curiosity, but in the book, at least, this was time that Thorin and the others used to begin securing the entrance (having the advantage of intel provided by the ravens).
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 4 2015, 2:54pm
Post #24 of 41
(906 views)
Shortcut
|
Peter Jackson has played fast and loose with time-lines and geography since FotR.
Few film biographies and movies based on historical events are completely accurate since, as it seems to me, most film makers are more interested in emotional and symbolic truths than in what actually occurred. Apply that to these Middle-Earth movies and PJ is no different.
I decided back in 2001 not to worry about it. Tolkien cared about these things, PJ doesn’t. Both approaches work for me.
The only really egregious example of this that I can think of from FotR (or the rest of Jackson's LotR) is the elimination of most of the seventeen years between Bilbo's party and Frodo's departure from the Shire; although, altering the year of Bilbo's birth was annoying. What was especially irritating was the remarks in his commentary track that as little as a few weeks might have passed--which was a logical impossibility as Frodo could not possibly have reached Rivendell in October of that same year considering everything that needed to happen before he even left.
In this instance, though, the statement that Thorin had been searching for the Arkenstone for days actually does work in the context of the story as long as we can allow for a sufficient travel time for the Lake-town Four.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 4 2015, 2:56pm)
|
|
|
Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 4 2015, 7:43pm
Post #25 of 41
(841 views)
Shortcut
|
I would just contrast such things very starkly with other instances where timing is presented as important.
|
|
|
|
|
*snort* //
[
1
