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DainPig
Gondor
Jun 3 2015, 6:18pm
Post #1 of 43
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Seven dwarves would be much better
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It think 13 dwarves is a very unecessary number of characters to the Hobbit trilogy. With 13 dwarves would be very hard to develop them personality of them all 7 dwarves is just perfect! Balin (he is mentioned to the quest of Moria) Ori (he is mentioned in Moria) Oin (he is mentioned in Moria too) Gloin (Gimli's father) Thorin (leader of the company ) Fili (Thorin's cousin) Bombur (comic relief, he is fat) And we can too make a paralel between The Hobbit and Snow White
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 3 2015, 6:48pm
Post #2 of 43
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First, it's okay if not every Dwarf in the company is fully developed. Jackson does succeed in making them visually distinguishable (for better or worse). We do learn a bit about each of them: Bifur, Bofur and Bombur are not of Durin's Folk and are miners; Balin and Dwalin are Thorin's oldest friends; Gloin financed much of the expedition; Oin is a healer; Fili and Kili are Thorin's nephews (not cousins!) and heirs; okay, Ori, Dori and Nori are there mainly to be name-checked. By my life, I will not part with a single Dwarf!
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 3 2015, 7:14pm
Post #3 of 43
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Yeah, it's already been done - besides, you left out Dwalin! And Fili is not Thorin's cousin, sheesh! But since you brought it up: We have two candidates for Happy - Bofur and Kili; and two for Grumpy - Thorin and Dwalin; Ori can be Bashful; Bilbo can be Sneezy (OK, he's not a dwarf but he does need a hankie); Bombur can be Sleepy; Bifur can be Dopey; and Oin is obviously Doc. That does unfortunately leave out Balin, Gloin, Nori and Dori. Fili can sub for Prince Charming! Yes, I think that will work!
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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DainPig
Gondor
Jun 3 2015, 7:24pm
Post #5 of 43
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My english is bad, but my elvish is better!
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Yeah, Fili is Thorin's nephew, sorry Dwalin needn't to make part of the movie, we have Gloin as the badass warrior
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 3 2015, 7:50pm
Post #6 of 43
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he didn't invent Oin-ment!
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 3 2015, 7:52pm
Post #7 of 43
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No way Gloin's tougher than Dwalin
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Gloin is more like the banker - though he does swing a mean axe. Good for terminating employees, I guess.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 3 2015, 7:57pm
Post #8 of 43
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Well, even with those three....
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We know that Nori is light-fingered and a bit of a chancer; Dori is fussy, particularly where Ori is concerned and Ori is the wide-eyed innocent abroad. There's a lot of character in the way they dress, the way they move and react and their body language and facial expressions. My feeling is that they did a much better job of developing the characters of the 13 dwarves than people give them credit for. AUJ was the dwarves' film and it set them up both as representatives of the dwarvish race and as individuals. That was the time for the audience to get to know them; then in the next two films the 13 developed on that foundation. Even Fili - I smile when I see all the volume of complaints about him being 'sidelined' - seems to me that in itself shows what a very good job the film did in making people care about him! PS - nor will I! Just like you I want all 13 and I'm very glad they were all in the film.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 3 2015, 7:58pm
Post #9 of 43
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Sorry, but I think it's a terrible idea - and who would play Snow White?
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DainPig
Gondor
Jun 3 2015, 8:35pm
Post #10 of 43
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Thorin - The old leader's wisest and bravest. Also the most bearded Balin - Gentle and polite. Thorin's best friend. Glóin - The crazy, drunk and nervous dwarf Óin - (I dont know, any idea?) Ori - The scared Fili - The young and agitated Bombur - FAT
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
Jun 3 2015, 8:43pm
Post #11 of 43
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I really don't think BotFA continued the development of the 13 dwarves at all, at least not all of them as a group. Excluding Thorin, Balin, Dwalin, Kili, and Fili, the rest have less to say and do than the minor Lake-town characters. For example, I don't think Dori has a single line, and the only meaningful closeup of him is his reaction to Bilbo's farewell. The fussy character of the first two films was reduced to a named extra as were the rest of the dwarves.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
Jun 3 2015, 9:11pm
Post #12 of 43
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Well if Fili is Prince Charming
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I imagine you'd have LOADS of volunteers!
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Glorfindela
Valinor
Jun 3 2015, 11:21pm
Post #14 of 43
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Have you read the book and do you know Tolkien's work at all? This is a joke, I assume. Are you advising substituting the 'missing' Dwarves with Snow White, perhaps?
Seven dwarves would be much better
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on Jun 3 2015, 11:24pm)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 4 2015, 1:08am
Post #16 of 43
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IZzz it OKAY?. to ERASE this Thread from my Mind..?//
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www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Weed
The Shire
Jun 4 2015, 4:40am
Post #17 of 43
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Bifur's dark past had been omitted on advice from the Inklings!
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 4 2015, 6:43am
Post #18 of 43
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DM in DOS and BOFA could you give some examples of where their is unique non transferable story telling value and character development and only possible by :- Bifur Nori Dori (he tells his brother to get away from the door in Beorn's and has a line in Mirkwood) Kili before he dies in his own right not as a foil for Kili. I know of one he doesn't throw BiIbo over the ramparts is a character defining moment. Gloin is the father/ treasurer, reads the arkenstone inscription and Oin is the Doctor in DOS what other exclusive story telling value do they have. Oin is at Lake Town and returns to the brothers delight but so does another brother figure Bofur with the same emotional benefit. I am not talking about the occasional glance (kili at the lake) or grunt or "middle earth atmosphere" but real story feeling value that adds to the scene and moves the story along like Hilda, Percy, Braga, Narzug do in their scenes. You have 300 minutes to chose from. Your starter for Ten! or maybe 15 !! It is a serious question which I would like some help with if you have a minute. I am not looking to be combative here I just would welcome some elaboration.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jun 4 2015, 6:44am)
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squiggle
Rivendell
Jun 4 2015, 10:09am
Post #19 of 43
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I thought the Dwarves were handled as a group really good
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We all got to know them a little bit. Stuff like with the goblin King in the ee was funny. Some had more developed arcs than others. Getting to know them all abit was appropriate in the first two episodes as a group, or the first 1 and 2/3s type of thing. After that point, ticking the boxes for the Dwarves in the same way would have been detracting from greater narrative momentum. I have zero problems with the Dwarves who got more or greater individual parts - that's not to say that there were smaller parts for Dwarves that i didn't think were as good, just that for the greater story telling there had to be a narrowing of focus and the Dwarves who received that i all enjoyed as contributing to the story atmosphere.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 4 2015, 11:13am
Post #20 of 43
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Maybe think of the lack of dialogue as "Future Shock"
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Alvin Toffler's book from the 1970's might come to play here. Toffler wrote..."When, Novelty, Diversity & Acceleration collide most people enter into a State of Future Shock.." Only three of the Dwarves have ever been in Erebor before; Thorin, Balin & Dwalin, so for the other 10?... this place is New or a "NOVEL" place for them, unless they studied the layout of it, in maps in Ered Luin, which is doubtful. The place is SSOoo Huge!! there is a lot of Diversity,..in this City underground. Did these 10 even know where the FORGES were? Acceleration, because the Dragon chase is happening really fast & they are all afraid for their Lives. These 10 are quite Overwhelmed by this future & have been relying completely on Thorin's commands from the start of the quest. Thorin's commands are obeyed since, like good soldiers they follow without thinking. Now, add in, his decline from Dragon-Sickness?!, SSOoo most are just standing there confused & SHOCKed by his behavior, therefore they just clam up, not knowing what? to say. Afraid for him & Afraid of him. So they just say nothing at all. ONE more thing. Dwarves are considered a secretive race, who don't give out much in the way of their feelings to anyone. EXCEPT for Borfur, who seems to respond often to what is happening in front of him. Bofur like Balin often pushs the plot ahead by his often funny comments. He is the rare exception, a talkative Dwarve. Much is conveyed by the expressions & eyes which is FINE because these actors Know how to do that, quite well. Future Shock is the way Bomby views it...& something to think about for awhile.
www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Noria
Gondor
Jun 4 2015, 1:05pm
Post #21 of 43
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Disagree. I think the thirteen Dwarves work well
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in AUJ and DOS especially, individually and as a group. Only a handful needed to be developed but the rest worked as background characters with each having a few solo moments. I agree that in BOTFA most of them are ignored as individuals, some not even having dialogue. However their group character, so to speak, is still very much evident IMO. I would not have been without any of the thirteen.
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 4 2015, 2:42pm
Post #22 of 43
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To give you the list you're asking for would take some time as I'd have to watch the films again or plough through screencaps and right now I don't have the time. I'm talking about my own impressions gleaned when watching - I don't make notes in case I need to pass them on! First observation: we're talking about something quite different here, and there is no way I can fit in with the terminology you're using. You want me to give you examples of their 'unique non transferable story telling value'. I think you're asking rather a lot - after all, what 'unique, non transferable.... etc' does any of these dwarves have in the book? I'd say none. The dwarf company is a composite character in the book: apart from a few stand-out individuals the rest act on mass. Can you cite, without looking it up, two individual actions by Nori, or Bifur? I can't see any reason why we'd expect anything different in the films. Then you want to know about their 'character development'. Again, I'd say the individual dwarves have as much character development in the films as they do in the book. I think character development - the fabled 'character arc' we hear so much of - is rather a false construction anyway. In any given story one or perhaps a handful of lead characters will go through some kind of change, based on their experience. They won't all develop and change in the course of the story any more than we develop and change on a daily basis. Character develops through life - the kind of dramatic change suggested by a 'character arc' only happens in response to sudden or dramatic events. So, if I'm not talking about 'unique, non transferable story telling value' and the rest, what am I talking about when I say that I think they did a much better job of developing the characters of the 13 dwarves than people credit them with. I might have confused you by using the word 'developing' there because my mind doesn't run on this business of 'character arcs'. What I meant there was simply creating characters for the 13 dwarves. In AUJ we're introduced to 13 individual dwarves - mostly in broad brush strokes, as we've said. Nori the chancer, not above a bit of stealing; Ori the innocent and so on. For the remaining films the dwarves act out these characteristics - they build on the character sketch established in the first film. What I'm talking about is the very thing you're dismissing out of hand when you say:
I am not talking about the occasional glance (kili at the lake) or grunt or "middle earth atmosphere" but real story feeling value that adds to the scene and moves the story along like Hilda, Percy, Braga, Narzug do in their scenes. The occasional glance, the reaction, the subtle details - how else do we get to know other people, in real life or in a drama? And why expect every action to have 'real story feeling value? Do yours? Mine certainly don't! No, take any good actor, tell him "the dwarf you're playing is very fussy, likes things done just so, looks after his little brother..." and he will be that dwarf whilever he's in view - he will show you that character. That's what I'm talking about. It's the way we get to know people in real life and, in more concentrated form, it's how we get to know them on film and on stage too. It's much more subtle than counting how many lines they have or what they say, it's about watching their expressions, actions and reactions. As I say, I can't give you a list, you'll have to make do with things I can remember right now. In DoS the dwarves are still on screen most of the time and there is a lot of character on show in their responses to one as they go through Mirkwood - the exchange about the dropped pouch, for example. Look at the way Ori throws things - or the look on his face when his has to fight. How about his expression when he realises that Bard is aiming an arrow right at him? DoS is full of these little interactions on the part of the dwarves. BotFA less so because the 13 are on screen less, the film has so many storylines to deal with. But you mention Fili - at least you didn't, you said Kili, but I think it was Fili you meant. Have you notice how much of a lead he takes in the escape from Laketown? He's in charge too when the four dwarves are about to set off for the Mountain - and notice the expression in his voice when he calls Kili to join them. Do you think he approves of fraternizing with elves? And back at the Mountain, when the others are watching Smaug attack Laketown, look at their individual reactions - like Ori looking despondent and being comforted. The various emotions displayed on the return of the four - and one I always notice - the looks on their faces when Bilbo tells Thorin he took the Arkenstone. It's a defining moment for Fili, but I think it says a lot about several of the others too. Or something else that catches my eye, which tells us something about the clannishness of the dwarves. When it's just the 13 shut up in the Mountain there is dissention about what they should do. Think about Kili shouting at Thorin that the people of Laketown have lost everything. But when there's a threat from outside, from those very same Lakemen and the elves, look how Kili starts cheering for his own side. Another one that always amuses me is the character differences on show when they march past Bilbo in full armour - Nori has chosen the most elaborate helmet going while Bofur is still wearing his hat with the flappy ears. If this had been a story written from scratch for the film I doubt very much if they would have had thirteen dwarves. They would have been more likely to follow the 'rules' people seem to go by now, about character arcs and unique value to the story and what-not. But Tolkien didn't follow those rules and in adapting his book, I don't see any compelling reason why Peter Jackson should have followed them either. The thirteen dwarves are fundamental to the story we know and love - after all, wasn't Bilbo chose for the lucky number? They belong to the story. As a company they drive it forward. As individuals perhaps they don't but so what, it's still their story, and I reckon the films have done a good job in making individuals of them - you just have to look for the clues because they're all there, often in the places you dismiss as insignificant.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 4 2015, 3:19pm
Post #23 of 43
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Only three of the Dwarves have ever been in Erebor before; Thorin, Balin & Dwalin, so for the other 10?... this place is New or a "NOVEL" place for them, unless they studied the layout of it, in maps in Ered Luin, which is doubtful. The place is SSOoo Huge!! there is a lot of Diversity,..in this City underground. Did these 10 even know where the FORGES were? Oin and Gloin, in the book, were too young to have been born in Erebor. But if their ages remain the same in the films then that is no longer true (although they still would have been children). Yes. Dwarves are secretive about their history, language, etc.; but I don't know that a gregarious Dwarf like Bofur would be particularly unusual. Certainly, he was one of the more charming members of the company.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on Jun 4 2015, 3:22pm)
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Michelle Johnston
Rohan
Jun 5 2015, 6:53am
Post #24 of 43
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Thank you for such a fulsome response.
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It really is refreshing to "hear" someone articulate throughly how thy receive art. I have a busy day but will re read and come back with some thoughts over the week end. Thanks once again.
My Dear Bilbo something is the matter with you! you are not the same hobbit that you were.
(This post was edited by Michelle Johnston on Jun 5 2015, 6:53am)
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CathrineB
Rohan
Jun 5 2015, 9:16am
Post #25 of 43
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That was nice read, dormouse. I agree with it. I mean the movies gave us more of the dwarves than the book in some sense. It wasn't hard afterall, but I don't think it does in all cases. I think one of the reasons why people are much on Fili's case that of the little we got it's the subtlety in the background that has ensnared those fans. He's got a good actor with a expressive face which works good in moments like at the lake with Kili and Tauriel. However I don't think he's been given more than the book. How many moments in the movies does he have that stands out? That focuses on him/is about him for more than two seconds? In the book Fili's one of the first Bilbo get's loose in Mirkwood and he helps out, he's going on about apples in the barrels and he's being rather irritable in Lake Town because there's all talk and no food. None of these moments makes it to the movies. His biggest moment besides dying is him staying behind in Lake Town against Thorin's orders. The rest of DoS is basically Kili Kili Kili. He's 100% focused on Kili the whole time. That alone does give character developement of being incredibly loyal, but he's sidelined. It's not about him. Even his moment of staying behind is about Kili. Sorry that got Fili-focused, but he's a good example All in all though the movies has made me love the dwarves even more than in the books because there they are just names. I love Dori's fussy nature, Bofur's... everything really and so on and they give a lot throughout the movies without having a whole lot to say. Heck looking back I never noticed how prominent Oin sometimes is in AUJ I never expected every dwarf to have developments and storylines because there's so many characters in all and there is a lot to be fitted into the screentime. But BotfA lost the focus. The main story should be Bilbo and the dwarves it's their journey, but they're not in the final movie. Everything else is and it's not about it being 13 dwarves. I want to see them because we've followed their journey! Not the elves, certainly not Alfrid's. I wouldn't want any of the dwarves cut out so Bilbo could be their Snow White I don't know if this comes across as a bit of a mess, but my point is yes. I do agree because I care for the dwarves because of what the movies gave us and a lot can be said without words, but some of the dwarves aren't justified being ditched like they have.
(This post was edited by CathrineB on Jun 5 2015, 9:19am)
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