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Shagrat
Gondor
Jun 3 2015, 2:00pm
Post #1 of 27
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Will Balin mention his plans for Moria in the EE?
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I have been wondering about this. Although Balin doesn't venture to Moria for some years after, we know the film timeline isn't quite the same, and I'd be surprised if they passed up another obvious connection to LOTR. I wouldn't be surprised if there was an extended farewell between Bilbo and the Dwarves (where Ori would give him his drawing, there would be a moment between him and Bofur, and perhaps Bifur and Bombur could have lines), and, before departing, Bilbo would say a final goodbye to Balin, perhaps asking him "What will you do now?" or something to that effect. Perhaps Balin could say that Erebor holds too many painful memories for him, and now that Azog and his band of Orcs had seemingly been destroyed, he would fulfil the desire of Thror to colonize Khazad Dum once more. Some hopeful strains of the magnificent Dwarrowdelf theme could even play as he declares his intentions. So do we think PJ will add such a scene? Will he choose to omit any reference entirely, or might he do it differently, perhaps a brief discussion between Balin and Dain (in an ideal world Dain would mention seeing Durin's Bane at Azanulbizar here, but it would surely add a darker, complicated plot strand too late in proceedings). Another way this could be done (or indeed an additional reference on top of the above) is the insertion of a brief epilogue of sorts: old Bilbo sorts through the post Bilbo brought in earlier and sees a peculiar Dwarvish rune upon it. Upon opening it, he finds it's a birthday greeting from the Lonely Mountain, written by Bofur. With James Nesbitt voiceover, we'd see things like Bombur having to be carried by several Dwarves; Beorn and the Beornings prospering; improved relations between the Woodland Realm, Erebor and Dale/Laketown; and lastly Balin arriving at Moria with Ori and Gloin and a company of Dwarves, before setting foot within. Perhaps Bofur could say something ominous like 'it has been some time since we heard from him', since in the film timeline we apparently don't have the 18-year gap after Bilbo's party.
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Kelly of Water's Edge
Rohan
Jun 3 2015, 2:41pm
Post #2 of 27
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that Moria should be addressed, as the results were prominent in a major scene of Fellowship. Don't know about your letter theory though - Gimli certainly was not concerned at first and fully expected to see the others, so that branch of the family had no clue that something was amiss (if there are any coroners on the forum, they might have a far better idea than I of how long decomposition a la Ori's skeleton might have taken in Moria conditions. Perhaps not long enough in moist conditions for there to have been an unreasonably long time since final contact considering communication options available?). My guess is that Bilbo probably would not have found out about Moria until the Hobbits and Gandalf returned to Rivendell for Frodo and Sam's recuperation - which would also mean another flash forward, as he definitely wouldn't have known yet circa his birthday at the beginning of FOTR. The best way to handle the acknowledgement might be showing Gandalf and Balin's visit, with Balin mentioning his plans to Bilbo, and a voiceover from Old Bilbo along the lines of "Oh, my dear Frodo, it broke my heart when (Gandalf, you?) told me ..."
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
Jun 3 2015, 2:53pm
Post #3 of 27
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It seems a bit unlikely to me.
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I certainly can't see additional flash-forward(s) at the end of the film. Moving between two time periods is one thing but trundling through more than that would surely be very awkward indeed. I'm also of the view that it would seem awfully soon for Balin to be thinking about Moria before Bilbo leaves Erebor. I can't see that the scene is needed particularly so I'm not sure it would be worth wedging it in, given that I can't see it feeling very natural.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 3 2015, 3:02pm
Post #4 of 27
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Bomby really likes your first paragraph..
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Simple, direct & beautiful.. leave it at that. WE have the Thranndy/Legolas reference so WHY NOT? a Dwarish reference TOO! Likely Balin is a real Fan Favorite & this would add a lot to the 2 Trilogies, even for the Casual audience member. Maybe, our views are somewhat Clouded since we are SSOoo Close to it. But Remember PJ didn't just make it for us.
www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 3 2015, 3:18pm
Post #5 of 27
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I'm pretty sure PJ has thought about this...
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There's almost definitely a version of the script with Balin talking about reclaiming Moria, there's a reference to everything else, and it's fairly likely such a scene was filmed. But will it be included? Hmm... The problem I see is the really confusing and vague details of what state Moria is even in... The flashback in AUJ Balin says "our enemy was defeated". So why didn't they move straight into Moria, then? They go to reclaim it, apparently win and then move away to live in the Blue Mountains with no explanation. Did the Balrog stop them? If so why would Balin want to go back? Maybe Balin doesn't believe it exists... For example: Balin: Erebor holds too many painful memories now, I will fulfil the desire of Thror and recolonize the kingdom of Moria. Dwalin: You know what they say, there are rumours of a dark shadow beneath those mines. Balin: Rumours, brother. Nothing more. Blah de blah de blah... I think that would kind of clear it up... a little bit. But it's still a bit awkward. Although awkwardness doesn't stop PJ, does it? 'His real name you must find out for yourself' *looks at camera*
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Jun 3 2015, 3:20pm)
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
Jun 3 2015, 3:22pm
Post #6 of 27
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You could even have that conversation between Balin and Dain...
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(as the rightful speaker of the warning!) after the coronation/funeral and it would still work, I reckon.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened." ¯ Victoria Monfort
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 3 2015, 3:28pm
Post #7 of 27
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Well, I think that Balin expressing anything like a concrete plan to return to Moria would be too much--especially if we are not to see him (with Gandalf) visit Bilbo at Bag End. Peter Jackson's changes to the make up of the Battle of Five Armies causes a complication here. We had lots and lots of the larger Orcs at Erebor, but only a relatively small number of Goblin mercenaries (a few hundred at most?). This means that the Misty Mountains have not been largely depopulated of Goblins as they were in the book, so how is Balin supposed to think that it might be safe to return to Moria?
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Shagrat
Gondor
Jun 3 2015, 3:33pm
Post #8 of 27
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Well you could argue the awkwardness already exists in Tolkien's works
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Dain saw something terrible dwelling within Moria, so why didn't he warn Balin about it? Did he, and Balin choose to ignore it? Or did Balin set off before he had the chance to warn him? The latter seems improbable, given that at least a couple of hundred Dwarves would have accompanied him.
(This post was edited by Shagrat on Jun 3 2015, 3:34pm)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 3 2015, 3:51pm
Post #9 of 27
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Here is something that could be ADDED?
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Balin says "WE need to send word to Ered Luin, that we have re-Claimed our Kingdom" Tauriel says "I'll go! SSOoo..Kili gets to Keep his promise.." "I'm Faster, & Fully Armed & Nothing can Stop me.." THAT would wrap up her involvement with her new Boyfriend?
www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 3 2015, 4:07pm
Post #10 of 27
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I'm not sure Dain knows anything about the Balrog...
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In the movie there's no evidence that Dain was ever at Moria. We don't see him in the battle. But if Balin asks for Dain's approval to go and Dain advises against it, I wouldn't complain. Perhaps Dain has heard the rumours from others. Of course, Balin wouldn't leave there and then. He has to say goodbye to Bilbo and join in the feasting.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Jun 3 2015, 4:08pm)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 3 2015, 4:11pm
Post #11 of 27
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Also, Dain Ironfoot already has a SON
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Thorin III Stonehelm who was born in 2866 ....the BOT5A happens in 2941 SSOoo..he is already 75 years old, which is a Good age to take over from his father when needed.
www.charlie-art.biz "What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 3 2015, 4:27pm
Post #12 of 27
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One wonders if Thorin had at all been pressured to wed and sire an heir of his own. Perhaps he had no desire to spawn another Prince in exile. For the record, Thorin's quest would have taken place in TA 2940 in the films, as Peter Jackson had altered the year of Bilbo's birthday/farewell party to 3000 from 3001.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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CathrineB
Rohan
Jun 3 2015, 6:12pm
Post #13 of 27
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Well there's no way for anyone to actually know yet, but it would have been a nice mention. Another chance at ripping our hearts at reminding us what will happen before LotR
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zalmoxis
Bree
Jun 3 2015, 6:45pm
Post #14 of 27
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Tolkien made himself quite clear: "Dáin did not give leave" to Balin & Co, cf. LOTR, The Council of Elrond. There is no "awkwardness" whatsoever.
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Shagrat
Gondor
Jun 3 2015, 7:05pm
Post #15 of 27
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But this still leaves open the question of whether Dain would have told Balin what he saw, and how Balin might have responded to it. Dain not giving leave willingly is interesting in itself; is he doing this out of genuine fear for Balin and co (most probably), or perhaps out of concern that his own preeminence would be threatened by a potential greater Dwarven kingdom reborn? I have always been intrigued to know more about the dynamic between Dain and Balin, and their motivations. The very idea of Dain not giving permission willingly, and Balin taking a large number of folk south with him, suggests to me a degree of tension within Erebor.
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 3 2015, 7:32pm
Post #16 of 27
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We have enough links to LOTR without belabouring it with another nudge for the audience. To me, it would seem forced for Balin (or anyone else) to mention a wish to recapture another former Dwarf kingdom when they've only just got their hands on Erebor again.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..." Dwarves: "Pretty rings..." Men: "Pretty rings..." Sauron: "Mine's better." "Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak. Ataahua's stories
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 3 2015, 7:55pm
Post #17 of 27
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In the book, Dain does warn Thrain about the Balrog...
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If I'm remembering this correctly, Thrain expresses a desire to retake Moria after the Battle of Azanulbizar, and Dain, who slew Azog before the gate, caught a glimpse inside and saw the Balrog lurking within. For the movie, this could simply be changed to Dain warning Balin instead.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 3 2015, 8:02pm
Post #18 of 27
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This was actually one link to LotR I was hoping to see...
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Would have rather seen or heard something regarding Balin's desire to retake Moria instead of Jackson's made-up reasons for Legolas joining the Fellowship (including the silly Aragorn reference), or the athelas/healing rehash, or the nuclear Galadriel rehash.
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Jun 3 2015, 8:13pm
Post #19 of 27
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but there is nothing silly in the Aragorn reference by Thanduil. Whoever paid a little more attention to the whole dialogue between Thranduil and Legolas,would easily deduce a deeper subtext which had nothing to do with Aragorn. It was Thranduil's way of admitting his error to his son without losing face. He says to Legolas,"His father was a good man. The son may be a great man." He's really talking about himself and Legolas at this point. I thought it was a beautiful way for the character to admit his mistake in a way that was in character. P.S. Just a tiny observation here: When a text or a dialogue line is not coming straight out of Tolkien's writings, many folks fail to grasp the subtext or fail to analyse what exactly is shown on the screen. I have noticed this happening numerous times,unfortunately
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
(This post was edited by NecromancerRising on Jun 3 2015, 8:14pm)
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Ataahua
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
Jun 3 2015, 8:41pm
Post #20 of 27
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nuclear Galadriel hadn't returned. I loved the effect in LOTR, but having it in The Hobbit (and poorly done, IMO) is a case of diminishing returns for me. I agree with NecromancerRising about the double-duty of Thranduil's line regarding Aragorn, but I appreciate how it could come across as a bit ham-fisted by the writers.
Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..." Dwarves: "Pretty rings..." Men: "Pretty rings..." Sauron: "Mine's better." "Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak. Ataahua's stories
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dormouse
Half-elven
Jun 3 2015, 9:58pm
Post #21 of 27
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Thanks for this, and for delurking...
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It's an excellent point and one that deserves to be made many times over. I don't find anything forced or fake in that scene and certainly nothing silly. For me it's one of those quieter moments between characters they handle so well - like Dwalin confronting Thorin or the acorn scene, or Elrond and Bilbo in Rivendell - and so many more examples.
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
Jun 3 2015, 10:22pm
Post #22 of 27
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Well you're allowed your opinion, and I'm allowed mine...
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...and I thought it was (to borrow a quote from Attahua) incredibly ham-fisted and unnecessary. It came across as "wink-wink, you all remember Strider, don't you?" It isn't about my "failing to grasp the subtext", although I'm not surprised that some of PJ's more vociferous defenders would choose to interpret it that way.
(This post was edited by Salmacis81 on Jun 3 2015, 10:22pm)
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xxxyyy
Rohan
Jun 4 2015, 2:44am
Post #23 of 27
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Together with anything about the Three Rings, a reference to Moria is at the top of my wish list for the EE
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And maybe also something about the damn Eagles acting like cabs. Yes, I have a long wish list, with just first places...
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NecromancerRising
Gondor
Jun 4 2015, 5:54am
Post #24 of 27
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although i have to thank you for that honorable title you attached me with But i am obliged to express my sadness when i see people who have never read any Tolkien book or watched any of the LOTR films-i refer to 2 friends of mine whom i dragged into the cinematic universe of Tolkien by completing the Hobbit trilogy first ,three days ago-easily grasp the subtext of this dialogue (the only thing that asked me after that scene was if this Strider is someone we see in the LOTR), and folks who have dedicated their lifetime in Tolkien's deepest,richest and more complex meanings, flaunting their own ignorance so often,boasting of their supposedly superior knowledge of the source material,but utlimately remain blissfully unaware of their own folly.
"You cannot find peace by avoiding life"
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 4 2015, 5:41pm
Post #25 of 27
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There was an eagle explanation filmed...
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But was probably part of the two film version. I really wish they kept it in, it didn't have to be a good explanation, just something to say "hey we acknowledge this issue, here's our excuse". Considering the book gives two decent enough reasons, it seems a strange decision to just ignore it.
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