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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 12:55am
Post #51 of 88
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I agree with your sentiment and think she does a poor job of selling Frodo on the Mirror, possibly because she doesn't want to over-elevate his expectations, and partly because she doesn't understand mortals very well.
I think the function of the Mirror is essentially about increasing one's overall understanding and depth of wisdom and less about imparting specific information. For that reason, it's dangerous as a guide of deeds. But for giving you a general booster shot of wisdom, it's a safe bet. I think that's ultimately what she wanted Frodo to walk away with. (But let me invade her mind first and see what she was really up to.)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 1:01am
Post #52 of 88
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re the mirror.... i've been thinking of it in a poetic sense..... at night, under stars, it is the mingling of the waters of ulmo and the lights of varda. during the day, it reflects the sky -- manwe's domain -- and is the mingling of ulmo and manwe. Terrific observation! The two most beloved Valar (by the Eldar) are Ulmo and Varda, so I think that's why Galadriel chose to use the Mirror at night, when the power of each was waxing and present. And it helped that Earendil could be worked in too. Tolkien seems much fonder of the stars than the sun; Elves don't sing to the sun all day like they sing to/about the stars, for just one example. (And the sun was a sign of their decline, so why sing to it at all.)
As a side note, it's interesting that Lorien is the Vala of dreams and visions but is rarely invoked or credited. If you think of the inspiration of Gondolin and Nargothrond, that came from Ulmo directly, as did other visions. So for the visions that Sam and Frodo had--are they from the Valar, or Galadriel's innate power, or Nenya? I tend to think Nenya. A Ring of Water has to be good for water-related things, or I'd return it to the manufacturer.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 1 2015, 1:18am
Post #53 of 88
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ah! +huge+, beorn-sized hug back, cg!!!! you cheered my heart with your lovely greeting. :)
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ah! +huge+, beorn-sized hug back, cg!!!! you cheered my heart with your lovely greeting. :)
i'm still dealing with so much with the house --- i'm moved back in, but the repairs aren't complete, and every few weeks there's something with a huge price tag... like $5k special assessment to pay the do-nothing adjuster, $3600 this weekend for a new air conditioning condenser (i've learned that's what the huge metal box that sits outside and cools the house is called), and i'll next need to shop for a car, because i was in an accident this week, and mine was totalled. my other hours have been spent moving mountains and making miracles at my job -- a series of project launches (i'm the program manager)... our first one was last week. i've been able to move those mountains and make those miracles happen, but the work has been intense, and the past four weeks i was doing 60+ hour weeks. i just can't keep that up and be sane and healthy, so i'm +making+ time for the reading room, because i don't think all this will let up any time soon (even though i will be going back down to 40-hour weeks).
(marrying faramir, organic gardening, and land reclamation from evil -- all of those sound like lovely pastimes -- i like the way you think! :) )
so! back to galadriel and lorien! :)
maybe the wall is made from ents? maybe it's one of those walls (wood, flying, air, etc.) from magic the gathering, the collectible card game? perhaps lorien's wall was a 7/26, and you didn't have to tap it to attack and didn't have to tap it to yield 5 forest mana?
with lorien, i get the feeling that they +could+ make a city of stone if they truly wished, but somehow galadriel is intentionally stepping away from her noldorian heritage, and the grey and silvan elves wish to look to theirs.
besides melian's girdle, how was menegroth protected? stone walls, palisades? perhaps lorien had something similar.
how 'bout a stone wall dripping with ivy and moss -- the best of both worlds?
cheers :)
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 2:21am
Post #54 of 88
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Early tales of Arthur seem to be about everyone but him, apart from his early doings and his end. King Arthur stands mainly in the shadows of Merlin, Lancelot, Gawain, Guinevere, et al in tales from the early to late Middle Ages. Even in Tennyson's Idylls (c1860) the person of Arthur is almost merely a common thread running through a collection of stories about others.
I'm not saying this is why Tolkien seems to have painted Celeborn as a tertiary character in his own realm. On the other hand, he probably had great faith that, like Arthur (and Celeborn it seems), a man is known by the company he keeps. After all:
Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise,
but the companion of fools will suffer harm. Prov 13:20
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on Jun 1 2015, 2:24am)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 11:31am
Post #55 of 88
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Informed attributes for an uninformed Elf
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Thanks for the observations on Celeborn, which are spot-on. He never feels substantial to me because we're told what he's supposed to be, but we don't see that in action. That's why I thought the Celeborn essay that Sador linked to was more opinion than substance and thus unpersuasive. And I think you're right that Galadriel is a sort of magnet attracting Tolkien's attention for character development at the expense of our silver-haired consort.
Celeborn doesn't seem any wiser at the end of the book when Treebeard asks about seeing them again in the future and Celeborn just says he doesn't know, whereas Galadriel gives a long, eloquent, thoughtful answer, trumping him again.
I really appreciate your comment that a little of Galadriel goes a long way, and too much would usurp the narrative. As much as I would like to know more about her, if she kept popping up being wise and powerful and overweening, it would detract from Frodo and the others. Instead she gets tucked in here and there with sage messages for A, L, G delivered via Gandalf, and her Phial and other gifts play a recurring role.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 12:08pm
Post #56 of 88
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Or maybe a stone wall covered with poison ivy?
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The orcs might scale it with grappling hooks and pillage and plunder the fair city, but oh, how they'll regret all the burning itching that follows!
Glad you are back at home and have a new job. Sorry to hear both are bringing a lot of stress! At least with the house, sooner or later it's just got to be finished, so that's something to look forward to, unless you decide to add a mysterious green wall outside.
I guess with Menegroth, it was built underground for protection and presumably had a single, well-fortified gate to the outside like the Elf-king's in The Hobbit, but I'll note that a Dwarf army and the Sons of Feanor had no problem at all breaching those defenses, so there was a design flaw somewhere. Maybe they had a thick and mighty hedge, but in the First Age "thick and migthy" meant 2 feet high and 1 foot across--people just didn't think big in those days.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 12:16pm
Post #57 of 88
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Yes, it's clear that no consensus is going to emerge on this. Just as some people in RL think it's okay for the government to record their phone calls, and others don't, so why should a bunch of strangers in the Rdg Room agree here?
But you've hit on the central issue, which is that Galadriel is pushing boundaries here. That makes her more interesting, because in a land where everything is static and at peace, there's persistent inner conflict inside its ruler and architect. I'm sure she's not so tormented that she can't sleep at night, but not everything is right. Unlike Rivendell, where things seem pretty solid but much less majestic.
I wonder if another factor is a sort of thought contamination. She tells Frodo that audacious claim that she can perceive Sauron's thought pertaining to Elves while closing her mind to him, but since he must have a pretty darn polluted mind, if even .1% of it rubs off on her, that's a problem, similar to Denethor and Saruman using their palantiri and getting twisted as a result.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 12:21pm
Post #58 of 88
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The Elves will say both yes and no. and also maybe
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I like your comparison to Delphic oracles and how the answer is in the mind of the beholder. That would explain why it's so dangerous.
I think another factor might be the mortal/immortal divide that inhibits communication. What if Galadriel were to say, "Frodo, just sit on this Ring decision for a few centuries, maybe 7 or 8, and then come back to me and let me know what you think." They're traveling in two different worlds. Or she could let slip some god-talk, such as, "You know, Frodo, one day Nienna and I were shopping in Valimar, and she said the smartest thing over a lunch of ambrosia." --Leaving Frodo staring at her with "huh?"
But Gandalf says clearly that when he comes to Lorien, counsel he gave and counsel he took, so Galadriel was dishing it out then, maybe because he was more of an equal.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 1:25pm
Post #59 of 88
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More hedges? *Secret* elf strongholds
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This is reminding me of the long exchange about the potential military significance of the High Hay back in the Shire. More that you might think, apparently.
I think the elves have traditionally gone for rather hidden strongholds. Once they go for grandiose military architecture, it can go wrong (e.g. the bridge at Nargothrond they can't demolish in time when the dragon comes).
Gandalf refers to Lorien as 'the secret woods' - unclear what that means: are the woods themselves hard to find, or do they exist in normal space in a wlle-known location, but contain secrets?
In either case, we saw last chapter an example of the usual Lorien defensive tactics - they lead the force of orcs into the woods, and presumably into an ambush. So the woods themselves offer defence in depth. Maybe (speculation!) the woods are hard to find you way in - Girdle of Melian style. So this wall forms a final redoubt, rather than the outer wall of the fortifications.
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets"  : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 1:35pm
Post #60 of 88
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Striking observation; "in a land where everything is static and at peace, there's persistent inner conflict inside its ruler and architect."
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I certainly agree - this is not the site on which to debate the correct amount of intrusion and surveillance in any real-life society.
Can I advertise there, though, that one of the talking points in the next chapter (http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=857078#857078 )is whether Galadriel suggests to Boromir some suggestions about keeping and using the Ring - just testing you know, the way she does with Sam and gardens. If so, I wanted to discuss whether that has the unintended (presumably unintended) effect of pushing him in that direction.
Feel free to mosey on to http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=857078#857078 for that discussion!
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 3:13pm
Post #61 of 88
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A fusion of Nargothrond and Doriath?
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Your point about the final redoubt makes a lot of sense. While there are paths in Lorien--and clear, smooth paths that blindfolded people can walk on--there are no bridges or paved highways like the roads leading to Moria. Maybe the law against letting Dwarves see the interior was part of that protection idea, that Lorien was a vast wood, and no one really knew where its city was. And while there's no real Girdle there despite Galadriel exerting some power of defense (which is noted in foiling the Dol Guldur assaults, and clearly absent since the orcs easily invade), just the size of the wood may be "confusing maze" enough. Hence they didn't expect anyone to march up to their front gate like you would at Minas Tirith or Edoras.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 3:24pm
Post #62 of 88
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'A Dotard Rhino Throng' is an anagram of 'Nargothrond, Doriath'
So, BTW, is 'Harridan Do Thong Rot' which suggests Nuclear Galadriel's last-ditch anti-orc defence. That'd have them hiding behind trees....
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 1 2015, 7:20pm
Post #63 of 88
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"Sindar We Have Heard on High"
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Caras Galadhon: do you think the movie captured the majesty and fantasy of this city as you picture it in the book?
The money shot in the EE with Haldir (the one that everyone disses with the phrase "It's only a model") captures the “new” colors perfectly:
It seemed to him [Frodo] that he had stepped through a high window that looked on a vanished world. A light was upon it for which his language had no name. All that he saw was shapely, but the shapes seemed at once clear cut, as if they had been first conceived and drawn at the uncovering of his eyes, and ancient as if they had endured for ever. He saw no colour but those he knew, gold and white and blue and green, but they were fresh and poignant, as if he had at that moment first perceived them and made for them names new and wonderful.
No earthly forest could ever be found that would do justice to Caras Galadhon. I do think WETA's cgi came close, though.
If not, how do you see it differently? Why do you think we're given such a detailed description of it versus Rivendell, where the details are scant?
"Heart of Elvandom" and all that.
As you approach, are you eager to rush forward, or a little bit afraid? (I always feel the latter, for some reason. The place seems daunting.)
Anytime I have to enter a place widdershins I'm always a bit apprehensive. After all, that *is* how you enter Faerie.
And a detail question: how do you picture the walls, when everything is so green and tree-based? Is the wall made out of stone, or trees, or some organic material?
Hedgerows. Like the Meikleour Beech Hedge in Scotland, 100 feet high, third of a mile long:
Colors: For fun, try to keep track of the colors in this chapter, which are principally green, gold, and silver. Green is obvious enough for a forest, but the gold and silver harken back to the Two Trees of Valinor. The city lamps are gold and silver, and even the Lord and Lady's hair are contrasts in gold and silver. There's a fair amount of white splashed here and there too, a reminder that these are good people.
I’m reminded of The White Sphinx and The Palace of Green Porcelain, not to mention Weena’s “tiny figure of white and gold”, in HG Wells’ The Time Machine. (Poor Weena! I always hoped she was missing after the battle because The Time Traveller had used his machine to go back and save her.)
Hidden people: Are the gates what Sam would call magic, or are the guards just unseen?
Apparently Heron of Alexandria (c. 10 - c. 70AD) has been here building his steam powered automatic door openers to impress the local yokels. He also invented robots and vending machines, which suggests how Lembas is both made and distributed in Lothlorien. Also Ranulf in Hawk the Slayer (1980) uses one of Heron’s automatic crossbows and the thought of that in Legolas’ hands just makes the fanboi mind boggle.
And why don't we see any pedestrians in the big city, only hear them singing above?
The Eloi only come down when the Morlocks call them for dinner.
Is this supposed to be heaven with angels?
Reminds me of Robert A. Heinlein’s Job: A Comedy of Justice, where Heaven is a cheerless place full of snotty angels and Hell is one long party. (We never really see what’s going on in Barad-dur, do we?)
Or a traditional fairyland where fairies are heard but not seen?
Musical Ear Syndrome occurs to those deaf, hard of hearing, or deprived of auditory stimulation.
I remember once Mom came home from a long night at the factory, stopped dead in the living room, and declared she suddenly could hear the angels singing. Kinda spooky when you yourself don’t hear a darned thing.
(On the other hand, famed composer Robert Schumann made a fortune cribbing the works of The Unseen Choir and passing them off as his own.)
******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 1 2015, 9:39pm
Post #64 of 88
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Things start out so well: Celeborn greets them each by name and very politely. Then when he hears about 1) the Balrog being awakened and 2) Gandalf dying, he turns cold on them, negating his previous courtesy and regretting his welcome.
Does this make you sympathize with Gimli and Boromir, who don't trust these Elves?
Knowing the customs of hospitality, I’m sympathetic with Celeborn. He’s okay with taking on the obligation to protect the Fellowship against the orcs of the Misty Mountains and Mordor, not to mention the Nazgul, but after he’s pledged protection he suddenly learns he and his people now might have to fight a demon of the ancient world! You’d think the Fellowship just may have mentioned that little matter before the Elves decided to let them in!
Could a married couple be any more different?
Georg and Maria von Trapp? Calvin and Grace Coolidge? Abraham and Mary Lincoln? Oliver and Lisa Douglas? Roger and Jessica Rabbit?
Why do you think Tolkien made them so similar when royal couples in fairy tales are often so similar?
You live with someone long enough you start looking, sounding, and acting like them, and they’ve been married since before Sauron was hawking cheap costume jewelry.
Galadriel seems three steps ahead of her hubby at every turn, and they've been married for thousands of years. Hasn't any of her Valinorean wisdom rubbed off on him yet?
He’s wise enough to have learned that the one and only time a husband should ever argue with his wife is when she says “I look fat.”
And she was eager to see Gandalf again because she "much desired to speak with him again." Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall of that conversation?!
A good way to get smooshed.
Galadriel skillfully rebukes Celeborn while winning over the heart of the Dwarf. Do you think she was being sarcastic when she first calls her husband "Celeborn the Wise" after he's criticized Gandalf?
I’d say “diplomatic” and why they don’t live in separate forests.
Wouldn't everyone at the royal court cringe?
Only when she says it in a certain tone, then everyone makes like a mallorn and leaves.
Is she trying to make up for that remark when she goes on to say that he is "accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth,..
I’m sure *somebody* says that, if only his barber after a big tip.
… and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings." Does that mean he's smarter than her, Elrond, and Cirdan? (*cough, cough*) Okay, maybe he's wiser than Haldir, but really?
He’s the one who married Galadriel. That’s pretty dang smart, ain’t it?
And take note of who gives out the best gifts in the next chapter. (Hint: not him.)
But I’m sure he’s picked up an expensive bracelet at Jared’s, which is what really counts.
By the end of the chapter, do you think it's a marriage of equals, or are they like bees, where the queen is in charge and the male is around just as a mating drone?
I’m thinking Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. (I wonder if a popular tobacco in the Shire is “Prince Celeborn In A Can”?)
Galadriel comments: "for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat." What does "the long defeat" mean to you?
There was a man who was walking along a sandy beach where thousands of starfish had been washed up on the shore. He noticed a boy picking the starfish one by one and throwing them back into the ocean. The man observed the boy for a few minutes and then asked what he was doing. The boy replied that he was returning the starfish to the sea, otherwise they would die.
The man asked how saving a few, when so many were doomed, would make any difference whatsoever. The boy picked up a starfish and threw it back into the ocean and said 'Made a difference to that one...'
The man left the boy and went home, deep in thought of what the boy had said. He soon returned to the beach and spent the rest of the day helping the boy throw starfish in to the sea.
-Loren Eiseley, The Star Thrower
"Are these more characters persisting against evil without hope, and does that influence Frodo?
I said. "Call me another thrower." Only then I allowed myself to think, He is not alone any longer. After us, there will be others.
-ibid
It's fun to watch words come out of her mouth, because no one else seems to talk in her vaulted style: "‘I it was who first summoned the White Council." (Not: "It was I.")
Shakespearean. Or Bulwer-Lyttonean.
Clearly summoning White Councils isn't something Celeborn gets to do, nor does he get to lead them. Why do you think it was Galadriel who summoned it and not Elrond or Cirdan or one of the Wizards?
She seems the most ambitious, thus the most likely to want to get thing organized. Then again, as Tolkien noted in Letter #153, Sauron also started off as a great organizer. That the way things go. First desk calendars, then day-planners, then wall charts, and before you know it you’re snatching rings from hobbits.
And if she summoned it, why couldn't she lead it if Gandalf said no?
Perhaps she recognized the liability of her own ringlust. After all, look at what happened with Saruman.
She picks her next words with care, echoing Gildor in the Shire, who was reluctant to counsel Frodo, and similar to Elrond, who, as Wiz pointed out, co-staged the whole Council to set Frodo up to continue as Ring-bearer to Mordor but wouldn't actually tell him to do so. Why is it so important to Tolkien that his Elf-leaders avoid telling people what to do?
Cause they know they messed it up in the first place so they’re leery of advising their successors to make the exact same mistakes.
******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 2 2015, 3:00am
Post #65 of 88
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i have always gotten the vibe that lorien is always there, but not apparent.
if someone tries to enter it unbidden, they could be led astray, gentled nudged aside, or killed (in the case of the orcs).
i'm hearkening back to eol and nan elmoth --- ensnaring aredhel and drawing her into the wood by enchantments. lorien might work like that, but in reverse. and i agree --- i think the wall might be important, but it's not the first line of defense.
fast-forwarding to the attack on lorien during the war of the ring.... although we don't know if the attackers reached the wall, i dread the idea of there being nothing between the heart of lorien and an army except for topiary.
galadriel (and her husband and many of her subjects) was the veteran and survivor of many wars and battles -- would she be comfortable with just a hedge for the city's immediate defense (there's a pun in there, btw)?
cheers ---
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 2 2015, 1:35pm
Post #66 of 88
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Look, if you invest 3 gold florins in a Beleriand hedge fund and wait a few thousand years for the interest to accumulate, just think how much money you've got built up in offshore accounts in Tol Eressea if your kingdom gets burned down in M-earth? So Galadriel really didn't need to worry about the topiary stopping an attack, and for all we know, the place was insured, and she even *provoked* an attack to collect on the insurance too and retire to an enchanted isle. Which sounds cynical to some, but I'd just say she's a smart survivor and shrewd investor. 
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 2 2015, 3:01pm
Post #67 of 88
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The whole thing might be stormed by zealots shouting "No Topiary!!"
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I'm also thinking back to our earlier chapter's conversation about hedges which, if grown long enough could become really impenetrable, even to World War II allied tanks http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=827265#827265
(it's part of a long and to me entertaining subthread about the military obstacleness of such a hedge.)
So possibly a hedge that's been tended for thousands of years might be pretty dense
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 2 2015, 3:36pm
Post #68 of 88
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Songs of The War of the Ring: "It's A Long Way To Topiary" /
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******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 2 2015, 3:43pm
Post #69 of 88
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Department of Elfland Security
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“I the LORD search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”
- Jeremiah 17:10
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.
-1 Corinthians 10:13
How ethical do you think it is for Galadriel to reach into their minds telepathically and tempt them to turn away from the quest?
I’d say “tested” rather than “tempted”. For example, in the Bible Jacob was tested while Eve and Jesus were tempted, and Job, in a complex case, was both tempted and tested. In LOTR Boromir was tempted by the ring, Faramir was tested by it, and Galadriel, in a complex case, was both tempted and tested by it.
So the question becomes “Is testing ethical?” and the answer is “yes” otherwise you’ve condemned every educational system in the world.
Isn't that something an evil government would do in science fiction?
Or security at Ben Gurion Airport. They observe body language, make eye contact, examine all of a person’s behavior and reactions. The result is like they can read your mind! (And also results in the safest airport in the world despite being the biggest terrorist target in the world.)
And note that she is deliberately tempting them with secret desires she seems to uncover in their minds--again, is that right?
Again, at Ben Gurion Airport, if they decide to question you, it’s not the question that matters, it’s how you respond to that question that’s important.
Isn't it the Devil in Christianity that tempts people with false promises and secret yearnings?
The Devil tempts, God tests.
Why do I find myself agreeing with Boromir on this issue of the Elves being treacherous when I don't think Tolkien intended that?
He fails the test.
Or is it all justified because, bereft of Gandalf, the quest really is in peril, and the situation requires some drastic interrogation to see where things are headed for the sake of the entire world?
Interestingly, 2nd Lieutenant Tolkien probably interrogated POWs. While normally prisoners would be quickly taken back to the rear for questioning, conditions at the front often made this impossible. (Like, say, during daylight hours, when Germans would fire if they saw any movement.) So since the first two hours of capture is when prisoners are at their most confused, fearful, and vulnerable, questioning within that period is vital. What with being the Signals Officer (who’d usually be in charge of moving things to and from the trenches) and knowing German, Tolkien would seem the most apt candidate. If so, the question becomes what methods would the young lieutenant feel were justified in eliciting vital information?
Does Galadriel herself seem to feel any compunction about her tactics as revealed to her later comment to Frodo at the Mirror? "Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting."
Kinda confirms she “tested” the members of the Fellowship rather than “tempted”.
What do you think the offer was to Frodo? I personally think it was a free ride back to Rivendell to live happily ever after at Bilbo's side with someone else taking the Ring.
'I wish it need not have happened in my time,' said Frodo.
But Boorman’s LOTR script had an interesting idea that would have turned Tolkien Scholars™ apoplectic.
Now that Gandalf is gone,…
How can you replace Gandalf?
… shouldn't Galadriel find a heroic Glorfindel-equivalent,…
The five stages of Legend:
1. “Who is Glorfindel?
2. “Get me Glorfindel!”
3. “Get me a Glorfindel equivalent!”
4. “Get me a young Glorfindel!”
5. “Who is Glorfindel?”
…or an armed escort, to get the Company to Gondor's borders? Clearly they are no longer able to travel by stealth--that failed on the other side of the mountains.
Well, the real threat to the Fellowship is from within, so increasing their number would seem to only increase the threat.
******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jun 2 2015, 4:21pm
Post #70 of 88
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I like this answer to the Galadriel discussion
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How ethical do you think it is for Galadriel to reach into their minds telepathically and tempt them to turn away from the quest?
I’d say “tested” rather than “tempted”.
I like this answer to the Galadriel discussion
If so, the question becomes what methods would the young lieutenant feel were justified in eliciting vital information?
He wouldn't snare an Orc with a falsehood.
But does that allow for selective presentation of the truth? Sauron used selective presentation of the truth via the Palantirs.
How much force did Gandalf use when he was interrogating Gollum?
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 3 2015, 1:19am
Post #71 of 88
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what's the difference between "tested" and "tempted"?
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darkstone... a lot of intriguing thoughts from you (and a lot of delightful humor :) ).
i am curious to ask... how are you differentiating "tempted" from "tested"? can you elaborate? clearly, the difference as you see it is significant.
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 3 2015, 1:28am
Post #72 of 88
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what wisdom can the mirror impart?
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what wisdom can the mirror impart? how (as you see it) does the mirror does it?
cheers --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 3 2015, 11:35am
Post #73 of 88
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Good point about Gandalf's interrogation
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‘I endured him as long as I could, but the truth was desperately important, and in the end I had to be harsh. I put the fear of fire on him, and wrung the true story out of him, bit by bit, together with much snivelling and snarling." That's from Gandalf.
When Gollum is telling Frodo and Sam about Minas Ithil, he makes a reference to Sauron missing a finger:
‘Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,’ said Gollum shuddering.
So, Gollum tortured by Sauron, or tortured by Gandalf: take your pick. Desperate times and desperate measures, etc.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 3 2015, 11:51am
Post #74 of 88
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It's a nebulous concept, but Frodo's experience with the Mirror is a definite before/after moment for him where he's never going to be the same again. The concrete evidence of that is he sees Nenya after, but not before, but it's more than that.
Galadriel says that Nenya can't be hidden from someone who's worn the One and seen the Eye. Somehow Frodo's exposure to Sauron's mind, in addition to his witnessing of the tidy synopsis of history that he belonged to, made him a wiser person. Frodo of Bag End had no pity for Gollum, but Frodo post-Mirror not only pities him, but on an otherwise hopeless quest, he even seems to have some small hoping of reforming Gollum. I think that exposure to what I'll call "the Cosmic Significance of Things" gave Frodo enlightenment that he didn't have previously. And then if you flash forward to Saruman at Bag End, Frodo is the only one who understands him, saying,
'He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.’ How did Frodo know so much about Saruman and his past as an Ainu? I suppose one could speculate that Gandalf told him, but why don't the other three hobbits know too since Gandalf the White loosened up so much after Sauron's fall? And Frodo appears to be the only one undaunted by his Voice. My theory is that Frodo had a whole lot of insight that no one else did and he didn't need everything spelled out for him. That's partly from the Mirror, but not wholly, of course--I think it was the sum of all his experiences that contributed to the overall effect, but the Mirror was a significant player.
That's Frodo. Is Sam necessarily wiser from the Mirror? In a small way, but just as the One Ring plays of the traits it finds in you and amplifies them, I think the Mirror does the same, and Frodo started out with more smarts to amplify.
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 3 2015, 2:08pm
Post #75 of 88
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Testing is a chance to show who and what you are. For example, one may test a metal to see if it is gold, but of course one cannot tempt it into becoming lead. (Unless you’re talking about nuclear transmutation, but let’s not talk about nuclear transmutation.)
Faramir's testing by the Ring allows him to prove what he is, to "show his quality":
Sam hesitated for a moment, then bowing very low: "Good night, Captain, my lord," he said. "You took the chance, sir."
"Did I so?" said Faramir.
"Yes sir, and showed your quality: the very highest."
Faramir smiled. "A pert servant, Master Samwise. But nay: the praise of the praiseworthy is above all rewards. Yet there was naught in this to praise. I had no lure or desire to do other than I have done."
-The Window on the West
Tempting is an attempt to corrupt or destroy what you are. Boromir was an honorable warrior, a great leader of Gondor, but the temptation of the Ring threatened to change that, to turn him into a breaker of oaths, and a master (not leader) of Men:
At last when Aragorn spoke of the death of Boromir and of his last journey upon the Great River, the old man sighed.
"You have not said all that you know or guess, Aragorn my friend," he said quietly. "Poor Boromir! I could not see what happened to him. It was a sore trial for such a man: a warrior, and a lord of men. Galadriel told me that he was in peril. But he escaped in the end. I am glad. It was not in vain that the young hobbits came with us, if only for Boromir's sake.
-The White Rider
The Ring both tests and tempts Galadriel. It tempts her to abandon her role as Guardian for the role of Ruler:
After the disaster in Moria [in the year 1980] and the sorrows of Lórien, which was now left without a ruler (for Amroth was drowned in the sea in the Bay of Belfalas and left no heir), Celeborn and Galadriel returned to Lórien, and were welcomed by the people. There they dwelt while the Third Age lasted, but they took no title of King or Queen; for they said that they were only guardians of this small but fair realm, the last eastward outpost of the Elves.
-Unfinished Tales
The Ring also tests her:
`And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair! '
She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illuminated her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.
'I pass the test,' she said. `I will diminish, and go into the West and remain Galadriel.'
-The Mirror of Galadriel
That is, Galadriel resists the temptation to become Queen, a role she rejected long ago, and by the test proves who and what she is: She is Galadriel.
So note that Galadriel really didn't tempt the members of the Fellowship, but rather tested them, to find out who and what they were:
'To me it seemed exceedingly strange,' said Boromir. `Maybe it was only a test, and she thought to read our thoughts for her own good purpose; but almost I should have said that she was tempting us, and offering what she pretended to have the power to give. It need not be said that I refused to listen. The Men of Minas Tirith are true to their word.'
-ibid
That is, Boromir recognized that Galadriel was testing them with a hypothetical to find out their quality, rather than trying to actually tempt them away from the Ringquest with something she had the power to give.
I trust I make myself obscure.
******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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