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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
More work needed by actors for BOFA EE?
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Goldeneye
Lorien


Jun 1 2015, 7:07pm

Post #26 of 37 (847 views)
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Again... [In reply to] Can't Post

Your presumptions are your own. For me, in order to properly enjoy The Hobbit, I needed to create my own fanedit of the films. Now that I have done so, there is no need for me to bother with the originals anymore, at least until the BOFA EE comes out and I can cherry pick from that as well. Simple!


squiggle
Rivendell

Jun 1 2015, 10:47pm

Post #27 of 37 (773 views)
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There is something intrinsic about the film makers version, particularly EE [In reply to] Can't Post

This is because it is 'their' film.

The perfections and imperfections somehow reflect something about them at the time (as objective as these things are to start with), but when it comes to the producing something as both splendid and proprietary as this version & tale has been of the hobbit story in middle earth, as Thorin might say, 'they have the only right'.

I like the extended edition of Dune, which is not authorised, at least wasn't at the time, but that is because it includeds more stuff filmed and created by the film maker and production effort. When it comes to shorter versions, or 'editing out filler', those don't really have as much meaning or much at all. I am not against people making their own versions, & in some cases editing choices may be better, but they don't hold an interest to me beyond conjecture, & certainly not when it comes to getting rid of 'filler'.

Also at the very least, the last three extended editions of this team, could not really have better candidates who know their way around extended edition story telling. Evil


(This post was edited by squiggle on Jun 1 2015, 10:48pm)


lionoferebor
Rohan

Jun 1 2015, 11:37pm

Post #28 of 37 (753 views)
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You are not the only one... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote


Quote
I will always repeat that they did not trust the Dwarves: Elves are a sure bet, everybody loves Elves.
Don't they??
Wink Not necessarily.

Maybe I am an exception to the rule: I have consumed the pages of the Appendices dedicated to the Durin's line, way before the Hobbit trilogy was made. I have always nonchalantly skipped the long description of the Elves during the first and second age.



lionoferebor
Rohan

Jun 1 2015, 11:42pm

Post #29 of 37 (752 views)
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Just curious... [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I don't know if they necessarily think it needs to be "fixed", but there have been hints that PJ wasn't 100% happy with how the theatrical cut turned out, which I don't remember ever really hearing about the other five movies.


what kind of hints?


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jun 2 2015, 1:53am

Post #30 of 37 (727 views)
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Finish at the last minute [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, that's been mentioned in the extra material of all the Middle-earth films. I think that one problem, the idea that he "was ready to be done with it," had to do with his health. I've read several times that he was sick and exhausted, and they were working 48 hrs straight on the final cut. So maybe (I'm being generous here) his dissatisfaction with the final cut stems from his not being quite as involved due to illness, not because he "didn't trust the Dwarves." I think the film suffers in many areas due to time pressure making them willing to cut corners, re: dwarves charging up Ravenhill; last minute addition of the kneeling around Thorin scene, etc.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


Jun 2 2015, 2:48am

Post #31 of 37 (728 views)
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PJ and Graham McTavish [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't have the exact quotes handy, but PJ said something along the lines of the extended cut basically being the director's cut, which I don't think he's ever implied about the others (maybe DoS). And Graham McTavish casually said something about PJ not being completely satisfied with the theatrical cut because the studio pressured him to cut certain things out.

I don't want to read too much into those kinds of things, but I don't remember hearing specific things like that about the other fives movies.


lionoferebor
Rohan

Jun 2 2015, 4:53am

Post #32 of 37 (709 views)
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Final product [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
...but PJ said something along the lines of the extended cut basically being the director's cut, which I don't think he implied about the others (maybe DoS). And Graham McTavish casually said something about PJ not being completely satisfied with the theatrical cut because the studio pressured him to cut certain things out.


I've always wondered if any and how much influence the studio had on these films. I know PJ once said in re to The Hobbit films that he wanted to make movies he would enjoy...and to a point I think he did. However I find it difficult to believe that: (A) a studio - especially a powerhouse like WB - would stand back and allow any director to do whatever he pleases and (b) a studio which funds a film (partially or in full), markets the film, and has its name tagged to the movie would not have some say in the final product.


In Reply To
I don't want to read too much into those kinds of things, but I don't remember hearing specific things like that about the other fives movies.


I don't recall hearing it either.


Arannir
Valinor


Jun 2 2015, 8:18am

Post #33 of 37 (682 views)
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"Couldn't be done" [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
So knowing it couldn't be done, why would they put themselves through that all over again? Complete waste of time.




They said that they did not want to lose a lot of the things they would have had to lose doing only two movies.

But I never heard any of them say that "it couldn't be done".


Actually, looking at the trilogy what they couldn't do imho was making the trilogy decision work. Unsure


And putting together some of what we know about the original plan, I find it hard to believe that this version was unworkable. It was unwanted at some point, sure... but not unworkable. I admire a lot of their earlier work too much to believe that they couldn't have pulled it off (and to believe that this trilogy was the best they could do).



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



dormouse
Half-elven


Jun 2 2015, 9:22am

Post #34 of 37 (671 views)
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That wasn't a quotation, Arannir, and it wasn't meant to be... [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm talking about what happened. They saw how the films were coming together and realised that the two-film split didn't allow them to tell the story in the way they wanted to tell it. they couldn't do what they wanted to do with two films:


Quote

We know how much of the story of Bilbo Baggins, the Wizard Gandalf, the Dwarves of Erebor, the rise of the Necromancer, and the Battle of Dol Guldur will remain untold if we do not take this chance.


You're a fair-minded person and even though you're unhappy with the finished film you still recognise that Peter Jackson and his team aren't idiots. They know their craft. Do you honestly believe they would have asked for such a radical change so close to the first film's release if they had seen any way to make the two film Hobbit work in a way that would have satisfied them? Do you honestly believe there is any way now that they're going to re-visit that two-film adaptation (which was the suggestion I was responding to)?

I can't begin to understand why the films, particularly the last one, worked so well for some of us and so badly for others. For me the trilogy does work well, with a few reservations. I'm still watching and re-watching BotFA because I'm not yet ready to stop. But I can see the seductive appeal of that discarded two-film adaptation for those who don't like the end product. It's so easy to say 'That would have been much better'. But truly, whatever we read into it now we don't know enough about it to see why they did what they did. We can't see that first cut, or know what was said between them. It's all guesswork.


Arannir
Valinor


Jun 2 2015, 9:46am

Post #35 of 37 (656 views)
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Nor did I think you quoted them. [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry if I wasn't clear... I know they didn't say that. And you are right that there is no chance they will themself go back and do a two movie version (though I would like to see an outline of the script or more information on the original structure). I focused on the word "couldn't" that you probably did not mean in the way I took it in.


It doesn't change my total bewilderment of how what came out of the whole process was deemed worthwhile all the changes the switch to a trilogy caused. I don't see what inclusions made it really necessary... the WC storyline feels so underdeveloped to me, Beorn was practically not part of the TEs, most of the Dwarves remain characterless, there wasn't even time for several resolutions, etc. There was more time... but the way the time was used... oh well.

Is it guesswork to speculate that I would have liked the two movie version better? Totally. But I can't help myself given how clunky the structure of the trilogy feels to me.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Jun 2 2015, 9:48am)


Goldeneye
Lorien


Jun 2 2015, 3:52pm

Post #36 of 37 (600 views)
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Agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

For all all the arguments made for stretching the story to three films, I've yet to find a reasonable justification. "Not enough time to tell the story" is not the case, since most of the added material was superfluous...extra CGI silliness, the dreaded Tauriel/Legolas subplots, Alfrid, etc.

Before AUJ came out, I remember being very excited about the White Council/Necromancer subplot but it just never developed fully, like you said. The showdown with the Nazgul and Sauron was hokey and felt like a very expensive fan film. And yes, I agree with you on poor Beorn. When you boil it down, his only real contribution to the film's story is that he gives the dwarves some milk and ponies. I'm sure we'll see more of him in the EE though.


Arannir
Valinor


Jun 3 2015, 8:13am

Post #37 of 37 (528 views)
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Showdown [In reply to] Can't Post

The "fight" Sauron/Nine vs the WC is probably the biggest let-down for me... apart from the Ravenhill climax.


It is imho so poorly directed it really makes my head hurt how the director of the Riders of the Rohirrim, the March of the Ents or the Mount Doom sequence could have come up with this.

Using the ring-verse... awesome... but so anti-climactic.... so little visual aesthetic and gravitas... not to mention the battle itself.


It is not even about being in-line with canon or the "power-ranking" of the WC members. Even on pure spectacle level these scenes didn't deliver, imho.



"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien

We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.



(This post was edited by Arannir on Jun 3 2015, 8:17am)

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