|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 31 2015, 7:40pm
Post #1 of 31
(6679 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Gandalf's vision of Smaug through the Dol Guldur palantir?
|
Can't Post
|
|
I saw on the Internet that in the Art and Design book of BOTFA there are two pages that talk (and portray) a scene, possibly for the last Hobbit movie, in which Gandalf looks through the palantir in Dol Guldur (in the hands of that statue) and sees a vision in which Sauron reveals what will happen when he joins forces with Smaug: http://i.imgur.com/onUKOPJ.jpg
Now, obviously, we didn't see this scene in the Theatrical version of BOTFA. So, is there any chance it may get included in the Extended Edition somehow (I know it may not be appropriate, since during the Dol Guldur subplot Smaug is dead, and that this scene would have been better placed in DOS, but anyway), maybe as a flashback?
|
|
|
AshNazg
Gondor
May 31 2015, 7:48pm
Post #2 of 31
(6618 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Here's my theory of how that scene fitted in...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
We know the first Hobbit film originally ended with Bard aiming at the dwarves, but that doesn't sound like a very dramatic final image to me.
I think Gandalf originally explored Dol Guldur while the dwarves were in Thranduil's realm.
Then, when the dwarves escape they meet Bard, who says "Do that again and you're dead". The music swells and we cut to Dol Guldur.
We see Gandalf find the Palantir and in it he sees this vision of the orc armies marching on Erebor, Smaug's silhouette flies in, lands on the rock and then credits.
It leaves the dwarves and Gandalf in a situation of peril and hints at what's to come in the next film. But after the three film split it makes sense that the vision doesn't really serve any purpose, so I don't think we'll see it in the EE.
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 31 2015, 7:58pm
Post #3 of 31
(6607 views)
Shortcut
|
It seems, from all sites I've searched, that neither will we see it in the Extended Edition of BOTFA, nor does anyone want to see it at all 
|
|
|
Bofur01
Lorien
May 31 2015, 7:59pm
Post #4 of 31
(6596 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It was scored for the DOS EE... //
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
|
|
|
arithmancer
Grey Havens
May 31 2015, 8:02pm
Post #5 of 31
(6594 views)
Shortcut
|
Just not as a part of Bo5A EE, where is does not really fit.  As an extra, as a "direction we did not go in the end" sort of thing, it would be cool.
|
|
|
AshNazg
Gondor
May 31 2015, 8:03pm
Post #6 of 31
(6595 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I really doubt we'll see it...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
My theory is just a speculative theory, though. I've no idea how accurate it is.
But if it's in the EE and it works then I'm interested, or otherwise to see it as a bonus feature would be cool - it does sound like an epic image, just not really relevant to the storytelling.
|
|
|
sycorax82
Rohan
May 31 2015, 8:09pm
Post #7 of 31
(6590 views)
Shortcut
|
|
It seems the Palantir was a casualty of the 3 movie split
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It doesn't make much sense to see the Palantir any more, unless we saw Saruman pick it up or something...;)
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 31 2015, 8:13pm
Post #8 of 31
(6580 views)
Shortcut
|
I always thought that if they don't find a way to put that scene in the Extended Edition of BOTFA, PJ would probably make a new prologue for BOTFA in Dol Guldur, in which Gandalf sees the vision.
I do think it would have been better im DOS, and I know about the score - the later part of the 'Thrain' track for DOS that was included in the BOTFA soundtrack. I just hope we will see/hear something for it, even if it is a deleted scene documentary or something like that, it sounds like an incredible scene 
(This post was edited by ThorinsNemesis on May 31 2015, 8:14pm)
|
|
|
Milieuterrien
Rohan
May 31 2015, 8:39pm
Post #9 of 31
(6564 views)
Shortcut
|
|
That scene might be connected with Sauron torturing Gandalf
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
.. to ask him who wears the Rings
There would be no other purpose to get Gandalf informed about that, for we know since AUJ that Gandalf feared all the way that Smaug might join Sauron.
But one hypothesis is that Sauron might want to convince Gandalf that his cause is already lost and that all he has to do is to surrender. For that, he could use the Palantir to show to Gandalf Smaug as his ally.
We also could as well have the Big Orc showing Beorn captured and tortured, to help getting Gandalf surrender. That scene might be interrupted by the Radagast rush saving Beorn, and the Galadriel apparition blowing the Orc and getting Gandalf.
But an enigma for me is that Sauron didn't show himself when Galadriel appeared and took Gandalf with her, and that Galadriel carried Gandalf near the Palantir and not the opposite.
Maybe Sauron did hide because he used Gandalf as a bait and wanted Galadriel and the others, Saruman included, to show themselves. So the fight between Galadriel and Sauron would have been primarily used by Sauron (the 'trap') to weaken Galadriel and then afterwards submit Saruman through the Palantir left in DG. Thus LOTR would be set up. IMO there is definitely room there left for a 'bridge movie', for through the Palantir, Saruman could see the Ring out of the hand of Isildur, and then begin to search it for himself, as the Appendices indicate.
Next Movie : the Hunt for Gollum ?
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 31 2015, 8:47pm
Post #10 of 31
(6553 views)
Shortcut
|
|
I actually didn't think about that...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It is very probable that, even if we know Smaug has died/will die, Sauron might still show Gandalf the vision, to convince him that, as you said, Middle-earth is doomed 
|
|
|
Milieuterrien
Rohan
May 31 2015, 9:04pm
Post #11 of 31
(6540 views)
Shortcut
|
|
If so, we could have a very different beginning to the EE movie
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
The EE might begin into Dol Guldur instead of Laketown, so people looking at it wouldn't know, and Gandalf as well, that Smaug will be killed over the Lake.
Thus the Palantir vision would have frightened him so much that he would have to rush to Laketown in order to help, learning only there that the Dragon died.
Thus too, that prologue set into two places instead of only one, would feel much less rushed than it felt in the TE.
I never felt totally convinced that showing people waiting for the Dragon in Laketown was the proper beginning for a movie like that, even if it worked quite well by jumping directly from the cliffhanger of the latter movie
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 31 2015, 9:10pm
Post #12 of 31
(6533 views)
Shortcut
|
I also felt the beginning of BOTFA was not appropriate, it felt too rushed. I would totally agree that changing the prologue of the movie to be set in Dol Guldur, thus seeing the vision, instead of in Laketown, would be awesome 
|
|
|
Shagrat
Gondor
May 31 2015, 9:51pm
Post #13 of 31
(6508 views)
Shortcut
|
Doug Adams has confirmed that the version of the film he saw with the palantir scene intact, presumably that scored by 'Thrain', did NOT feature the vision of Smaug leading Sauron's armies, but a different vision entirely. Unfortunately, he did not say exactly what it was he saw.
(This post was edited by Shagrat on May 31 2015, 9:51pm)
|
|
|
AshNazg
Gondor
May 31 2015, 9:58pm
Post #14 of 31
(6501 views)
Shortcut
|
|
There's a look that Gandalf gives Pippin...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
...When Pippin describes the burning tree in a courtyard of stone, after looking in the Palantir.
Obviously it's not the intention, but it could be interpreted that Gandalf has seen this same vision before. Maybe Gandalf has a vision of Minas Tirith in flames in the Palantir? This would give him reason for his quote later "...even Gondor its self will fall"
Perhaps Gandalf also sees The Shire and Lorien fall as he describes in that quote? And just to push the idea to the extreme, maybe Minas Tirith is in flames because Smaug is leading Sauron's armies! That would be an insanely cool image and a very scary one for Gandalf to see while caged.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on May 31 2015, 9:59pm)
|
|
|
Bombadil
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 1:42am
Post #15 of 31
(6428 views)
Shortcut
|
WOWie ! What an Amazing MOOT All of the Above are having
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Here..
WoOT, wOOt..Wonderful Palantir Thinking
Goin' on..
You do remember "EASTER EGGS"?
where a Director puts in a small element in Plain sight
but leaves you to Speculate? WHY did he do that..
The Statue holding a BALL? the same size as Palantir
was in Plain sight in many Shots!
AnEXTENDED Prologue in DG
would be greatly Appreciated
& Quite Un-Expected..
*sneaky* *Precious* PJ..?
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 1 2015, 4:05am
Post #16 of 31
(6389 views)
Shortcut
|
Actually the vision is just that: Smaug leads Sauron's armies and wrecks havoc upon Middle-earth 
I really hope we see it in the Extended Edition, it would be a great scene.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 1 2015, 5:08am
Post #17 of 31
(6377 views)
Shortcut
|
I don't think that the statue held a real palantir; although it might have been intended to be a depiction of one.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 1 2015, 5:25am
Post #18 of 31
(6372 views)
Shortcut
|
why did the lego figures of Dol Guldur show it as a glowing orb? It was most likely intended to be a palantir, the art book of BOTFA says Sauron shows Gandalf the vision through a palantir, and I don't know of another palantir in the Hobbit movies
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 1 2015, 5:41am
Post #19 of 31
(6363 views)
Shortcut
|
If so, I think that it was a poor decision to put a seeing-stone in the hands of a statue just standing out in the open like that. It's probably just as well that it wasn't exploited in the final cut of the movie.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 1 2015, 5:52am
Post #20 of 31
(6362 views)
Shortcut
|
According to PJ's description of Dol Guldur it was built by Numenorians, and maybe it was forgotten there by them when they were driven out, or it was stolen from them and returned to Dol Guldur. I think except PJ's intention to show Gandalf's vision through it, he may wish Saruman to take it to Isengard, and become ensnared (I know in the book the Isengard palantir was already there when Saruman moved in, but with so many departures from the lore PJ has made, it would not matter, and it will be also a nice addition to the Extended Edition). I'm almost certain that we will see this palantir more closely in the Extended Edition of BOTFA
|
|
|
Arannir
Valinor
Jun 2 2015, 8:11am
Post #21 of 31
(6098 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The EE needs a lot of work to make BotFA a good movie.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
But this vision is not one of the things it needs... why? It would put another climax thing in front of what should have never been a prologue to begin with. It surely cannot come after Smaug's demise - that would be really redundant.
The transition from DoS to BotFA is already such a mess... putting some sort of Gandalf/Smaug prologue in front of it... urgh.
As a unused bonus amidst the featurettes, okay. But I guess a scene like this would be too much work just for the extras (unless there used to be an almost finished version of it).
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Jun 2 2015, 8:13am)
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 2 2015, 10:18am
Post #22 of 31
(6081 views)
Shortcut
|
I still hold my hope! And I know, you might think
'It's just a fool's hope', but I'll hold onto it, I don't know why, but I really want to see that scene
|
|
|
squiggle
Rivendell
Jun 2 2015, 10:19am
Post #23 of 31
(6078 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Wouldn't Smaug the Tyrannical be in his Element!
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
It's a super piece of art work, & I've got no doubt it would be a great scene (heck it would be a pretty great movie in itself)
Would also be cool story wise for a few different reasons.
Part from that, i go with who knows or anyones guess
|
|
|
Arannir
Valinor
Jun 2 2015, 10:56am
Post #24 of 31
(6073 views)
Shortcut
|
Personally I also would like to see it, just not edited into BotFA (it would have indeed been a great ending for DoS - instead of the Forges - or the first movie in a two movie version).
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
(This post was edited by Arannir on Jun 2 2015, 10:57am)
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 2 2015, 11:19am
Post #25 of 31
(6066 views)
Shortcut
|
For, as we all know, Peter Jackson always finds a way to surprise us, and, even if not likely in some people's opinion, he may surprise us by adding that scene to BOTFA too
|
|
|
|
|
1
