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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Five factors that hurt the Hobbit films
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Bofur01
Lorien


May 29 2015, 9:24am

Post #51 of 75 (1263 views)
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I'm 98% sure, that it was said... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thinking about it, I think it was PJ who said that Viggo came to him and said he'd been horribly misquoted.


Milieuterrien
Rohan

May 29 2015, 11:30am

Post #52 of 75 (1240 views)
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Maybe he did say it to PJ, but why not saying it mainstream ? [In reply to] Can't Post

Because he couldn't :

The point is Viggo Mortensen is a actor fond of nature and poetry, so he understandably feels not very comfortable with high levels of technology. He needs to feel the air and the whisper of the leaves on his cheeks, rather than the groaning of ventilators and the flapping of helicopters. It is his strider side, and it showed never better than when he sung after being crowned.

The Hobbit is a different trilogy. Having to imitate life was the purpose of the first one, but IMO repeating exactly this kind of effort would have been a mistake. The Hobbit had to hold its own ground visually and did achieve it.

Had it been shot first, The Hobbit would have ended bucolic. But LOTR was shot first, so the Fellowship of the Ring took the bucolic. No harm in that after all.

That said, Viggo would have been an excellent Bard IMO, even if I think Luke Evans couldn't be matched on that specific character.


Bishop
Gondor


May 29 2015, 2:05pm

Post #53 of 75 (1222 views)
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I agree that it was unbecoming [In reply to] Can't Post

To a point. But he's kind of right regarding the power of 10. It is simply a fact that TH uses CGI in a radically different way than LOTR, and possibly to its detriment. And anyone suggesting that using a preponderance of real locations, a mix of practical effects and cgi, and model work etc doesn't work today or is impossible is wrong IMO.

Do you have a link where he said he was horribly misquoted?


Gandalf the Green
Rivendell

May 29 2015, 2:57pm

Post #54 of 75 (1204 views)
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Objective [In reply to] Can't Post

That's not only your opinion, it's just entirely true.


Bishop
Gondor


May 29 2015, 3:07pm

Post #55 of 75 (1194 views)
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... [In reply to] Can't Post

Sorry, I think I misread your previous post!

Look at something like Mad Max: Fury Road. Or the new Star Wars film. I think they make a great case for maintaining a balance, the former of which will most likely get a best picture nomination.


(This post was edited by Bishop on May 29 2015, 3:11pm)


Bofur01
Lorien


May 29 2015, 3:10pm

Post #56 of 75 (1185 views)
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Sorry, I couldn't find it. I'm hoping some others will remember though? // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Bishop
Gondor


May 29 2015, 3:13pm

Post #57 of 75 (1185 views)
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No worries [In reply to] Can't Post

Like I said I don't think it was particularly tactful for Mortenson to say something like that publicly. And I wouldn't doubt for a second that there was a larger context to his quote. Media spin can be awful. I still think at the heart of it he's got a point though.


Milieuterrien
Rohan

May 29 2015, 3:24pm

Post #58 of 75 (1183 views)
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I guess that what VM said has something to do with what he feels [In reply to] Can't Post

But I'm also rather sure that he wouldn't have shouted it on the roofs the way the spinning did. And I would also be surprised if that is all VM has to say about his feelings towards the movies.


Jettorex
Lorien


May 29 2015, 3:28pm

Post #59 of 75 (1179 views)
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for me.. [In reply to] Can't Post

... it was too much CGI-especially Bolg and Azog and the lack of "small" moments- character interaction and development, pithy statements-moments that really let the actors shine (which I thought PJ mastered beautifully in LOTR).
The use of real actors for main orc parts in LOTR made there characters just seem more real to me and added to the drama. Bolg and Azog just seemed like video game figures to me in TH. Plus the decision to go CGI on them seemed to influence the actual design-the original Bolg was the coolest, scariest orc to date. and unfortunately THAT orc/design was relegated to just a few short glimpses. : (


- "I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."


My Book---> www.amazon.com/Popcornmaker


Bishop
Gondor


May 29 2015, 3:34pm

Post #60 of 75 (1176 views)
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There's no question [In reply to] Can't Post

That he understands the amazing accomplishment that is the LOTR trilogy. He seemed to be focusing on the directors set of tools and how it relates to changes in technology. Mortenson strikes me as a crunchy sort of dude.


Avandel
Half-elven


May 29 2015, 4:20pm

Post #61 of 75 (1170 views)
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And intelligent [In reply to] Can't Post

And artistic and dedicated - so it has always surprised me that VM I think made those comments at all - but as far as I know, no context was ever given.

And it doesn't surprise me that no details of speaking with PJ afterwards are readily available - it was probably a private conversation.

Come to think of it as well, really, I doubt any of the actors were truly happy having to interact with nothing, tennis balls, and green screens, it's just said differently - everything from Richard Armitage playfully commenting on the great forges of Erebor to Sir Ian breaking down in frustration to Andy Serkis saying Martin Freeman needing things to "feel real" to the very sensible decision to ease Martin Freeman into things with the Gollum scene which is more intimate.

And Richard Armitage specifically requesting a very tall stunt man for the end battle, e.g., he thought it was important to be actually interacting - and so we have an amazing, desperate, gritty end fight.

*Shrug* without budget/time details its hard to say why decisions are madeUnsure. Without knowing anything like that, I would have argued w. PJ, say, over a bunch of digital goblins being "more dynamic" than goblins in suits (which I thought looked pretty creepy). That there's no point being "more dynamic" and having a shot that looks like a video game.Unsure

Then I'm watching BOFA and the scene of the orcs, goblins and bats leaving Gundabad IMO is pretty impressive. So at times I could agree about the CGI use - but then again, IMO it would be unfair to overlook the spectacular successes in the Hobbit re CGI and set pieces.


Bishop
Gondor


May 29 2015, 5:52pm

Post #62 of 75 (1147 views)
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great thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post

I think you strike a very fair balance in your post. It definitely seems to be an ongoing discussion in the film industry, and everyone from the directors to the producers to the actors are cognizant of the way things are being done now. And everyone has an opinion on it!!

Of course the CGI on display IS impressive. BOTFA probably has the most impressive CGI ever committed to film. Honestly, it's amazing. But I wonder if that come with a downside?

Everyone is going to be different in the way CGI hits them. Personally I can recognize a fully CGI shot immediately, and it takes me right out of the experience. That same shot can be absolutely gorgeous, perfectly rendered, and still not be as immersive as intended. My go-to example of a scene that makes me really question the over-reliance on green screen and CGI sets is the barge trip to Lake-town. There isn't even set extension, it's just CGI fog. And the compositing on the Dwarves looks really bad to my eyes. Why would you composite actors on fog that is so thick you can't even see more than 20 feet away? Wouldn't you want to just shoot that?

Jackson was in a no win situation I think. Too many competing factors, and at the end of the day he had to deliver 3 blockbuster films. I don't think he had any intention whatsoever in struggling to make an artsy kind of film like he did back in the day. The tales of the challenges in filming LOTR are legendary, and those same challenges may have pushed everyone involved to rise to a new kind of dynamic film making level. He's talked about "the good old days", and how it's time to move on. But at the same time we're seeing other directors looking back and saying "wait, there's good stuff there!". There is absolutely no question that Jackson's heart was totally in it, but it's easy to understand if he wanted to make the film making experience as simple and controlled as possible. I don't blame him for that at all, but it lacks that kind of blood sweat and tears quality IMO.


Bishop
Gondor


May 29 2015, 6:04pm

Post #63 of 75 (1139 views)
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It is entirely possible [In reply to] Can't Post

that in the attempt to fill out the The Hobbit to three films they over-compensated. That might explain why plot/character points such as Radagast and Beorn who were developed in AUJ and DOS were dropped. They might have just overstuffed it, and had to make a decision on what to focus on to maintain a coherent story fit for theatrical release.


Avandel
Half-elven


May 29 2015, 11:57pm

Post #64 of 75 (1102 views)
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Thank you! and nice! [In reply to] Can't Post

Re:


Quote
Everyone is going to be different in the way CGI hits them. Personally I can recognize a fully CGI shot immediately, and it takes me right out of the experience. That same shot can be absolutely gorgeous, perfectly rendered, and still not be as immersive as intended. My go-to example of a scene that makes me really question the over-reliance on green screen and CGI sets is the barge trip to Lake-town. There isn't even set extension, it's just CGI fog. And the compositing on the Dwarves looks really bad to my eyes. Why would you composite actors on fog that is so thick you can't even see more than 20 feet away? Wouldn't you want to just shoot that


THAT - I can hear. I honestly never noticed re the dwarves on the barge - but if there is a "funny" scene about orcs in BOFA, for me it's when Bolg meets up with Azog, and is lying and all that *snicker*Laugh but *sigh* - anyone who does Photoshopping can see the overly-sharp edges here and there re the composite - not like I am an expert but a bit of blurring can be your friendUnsure - and the armies behind are in rigid formation - which may be a hint re evil and Nazis moving in lock-step, but then again, aren't orcs supposed to be deformed, shambling creatures?

But sometimes re the Hobbit I just can't even recognize a CGI shot - as when the dwarves are leaving Rivendell, I was idly wondering what location that path is, although common sense is telling me that the actors weren't going to be stuck out on a ledge. And I was shocked at my first site of the green screens of Thranduil's halls, and the empty forges room RA showed off was another surprise - I mean, I expect some CGI, but I didn't know how MUCH there was. Which I guess is the best case.Heart

So, with my own quibbles, I am grateful (since I appreciate handwork) of all that was done (I am thinking of William Kircher enthusing over the very door hinges at Bag EndHeart), and I just don't know enough in detail about what went on with LOTR to make additional comments (more reading for meShocked) - I know the loss of the models and handwork was regretted by Richard TaylorFrown. And I also wonder, re the loss of location shooting, if on top of everything else, skyrocketing insurance costs were also a factor re the HobbitUnsure. AND having to spend money and extra time making sure with today's high resolution cameras, that any "cheats" and so on are smoothed out, re-colored - I imagine there now, with the latest "ruthless" digital cameras, that some cheats (besides the 3D proportion issue) went on in LOTR that just would not work today. Also having to deal with surprises like the cameras sucking all the reds out from the makeup and clothes!





(This post was edited by Avandel on May 30 2015, 12:02am)


RosieLass
Valinor


May 30 2015, 4:20pm

Post #65 of 75 (1032 views)
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When he specifically stated... [In reply to] Can't Post

...that Aragorn wasn't in the Hobbit when reporters asked him if he wanted to be in the film, I doubt he's mad about being "left out."

"Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it."
--Joyce Meyer

A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP
--Leonard Nimoy


Avandel
Half-elven


May 30 2015, 5:19pm

Post #66 of 75 (1014 views)
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But - I really don't know what to think.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Because there also was the "rumor"? "trash talk"?? that was around, that VM had had a few, and was upset and begging PJ to be in the film.

*Shrug* And then again, it could well be that VM is the kind of person who considers it beneath his interest or dignity to publicly clarify any of this. And/or wouldn't trust most journalists to get it right.

So my comment was based on a possible guess, e.g., it could be a thought that is flat wrong. I don't know VM personally.

I just thought, that on some level, re being human/being an actor, watching the Hobbit for him may be like a party that "everyone" got invited to except you. That there might have been a twinge, here and there. But I don't know the man - he may be like the retired Sean Connery, who gracefully retired and seemed content with that.

Tho just sayin' for me - I personally didn't need all the LOTR tie-ins and personally was unhappy seeing Elijah Wood at premieres and so on re AUJ - it made me uncomfortable. A lot of fans liked that tho, I guess.UnsureUnsure


Milieuterrien
Rohan

May 30 2015, 7:18pm

Post #67 of 75 (1000 views)
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It may happen that VM could have been contacted, [In reply to] Can't Post

.. but the contacts went nowhere since the 'bridge movie' was dropped.

Obviously the team and the crew have been surprised to hear about VM comments, and I've heard that he went to meet them.
Why would he be at odds with the team ? I see no reason.

Maybe the common silence since has something to do with the uncertainty of the 'bridge movie'. If there is finally one, how could Viggo stay out of it ?


lonelymountainhermit
Lorien


May 30 2015, 8:46pm

Post #68 of 75 (974 views)
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yessiree [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm with Viggo on this.


Avandel
Half-elven


May 30 2015, 9:39pm

Post #69 of 75 (968 views)
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the forbidden word.... [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Maybe the common silence since has something to do with the uncertainty of the 'bridge movie'. If there is finally one, how could Viggo stay out of it ?


Recast.

And even the howls - or not - of the industry and audience for something like that would be publicity and interest.Unsure






Glorfindela
Valinor


May 30 2015, 11:05pm

Post #70 of 75 (948 views)
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Yes, Avandel [In reply to] Can't Post

He'd be far too old to appear in it, as a much younger version of Aragon than we saw 12 years ago. Bloom would be too old, too. I think this might be wishful thinking on some people's part. Thank goodness, because I wouldn't relish the idea of a 'Legolas, the Next Ten Years', or 'Legolas, Assemble' or whatever film or trilogy – it would be subjecting the ME film universe to complete ridicule, I feel, and trivialising Tolkien even more. (And I certainly don't feel Bloom/Legolas has the draw he had at the time of the LotR films.)


In Reply To

Quote
Maybe the common silence since has something to do with the uncertainty of the 'bridge movie'. If there is finally one, how could Viggo stay out of it ?


Recast.

And even the howls - or not - of the industry and audience for something like that would be publicity and interest.Unsure







(This post was edited by Glorfindela on May 30 2015, 11:06pm)


Avandel
Half-elven


May 31 2015, 4:56pm

Post #71 of 75 (892 views)
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Agree - LOL [In reply to] Can't Post



Quote
He'd be far too old to appear in it, as a much younger version of Aragon than we saw 12 years ago. Bloom would be too old, too. I think this might be wishful thinking on some people's part. Thank goodness, because I wouldn't relish the idea of a 'Legolas, the Next Ten Years', or 'Legolas, Assemble' or whatever film or trilogy – it would be subjecting the ME film universe to complete ridicule, I feel, and trivialising Tolkien even more. (And I certainly don't feel Bloom/Legolas has the draw he had at the time of the LotR films


Agree! - and for me, personally, I would much rather see the dwarves' struggles in exile, and/or Thranduil leading the remnants of the elven army back to the forest, or the decimation of Beorn's people -

all the stuff that is Legolas-less.

Interesting about Legolas/Bloom's draw or lack thereof. I remember seeing critics and audience postings that were pretty happy about the prospect.

Guess there is no way to tell whether that helped the BO or not - but IMO the execution for me will always be problematic - e.g. for me Legolas does some nice work (the scissor slice of the orc head, the start of the river fight, parts of the end battle). Other stuff like Gundabad or trying to make Legolas/Bolg have any emotional weight failed, for me.Unimpressed

Still, I will always give Orlando huge props for the way he carried the situation in real life re interviews - very respectful of the cast ("I'm surrounded by formidable actors") and to me seemed more dubious about his presence in the Hobbit films than PJ. And that he gets in there and does his own stunts - even the absurd.

(Just lately re the "bat thing" the position of his arms is bugging me - e.g. this is small stuff, but there's no strain on Legolas' arms. He looks like he is putting a coat onUnsure. Contrast that with Thorin hanging from the cliff or Bilbo hanging off the spider where they look like they are, in fact, hanging from something and holding on.

I probably only pay attention tho because I'm not a fan of the OTT stuff or the huge focus on Legolas/Bolg. Tho I like bits and pieces of it in BOFA - again, some of the knife work, shooting the orcs downHeart - stuff that I think is the best of Legolas for me.)



Glorfindela
Valinor


May 31 2015, 5:12pm

Post #72 of 75 (875 views)
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You are more generous than me, Avandel [In reply to] Can't Post

For me, Legolas and the toilet humour aspects were by far the most unwelcome parts of the second and third films in particular.

I found the whole thing with the bat absolutely the most horrible, cringeworthy thing in the entire trilogy (closely followed by the jumping on people's heads). What was shown just doesn't make any sense. In fact, I jokingly predicted on this forum before the final film that we would probably see Legolas riding upside down on a bat, and shooting arrows while attached it. I wasn't wrong at all, and the reality was actually much worse than I imagined it would be. Who would have thought it?

I do agree, however, that OB's attitude during interviews was commendable (not his fault that his inclusion simply didn't work). It would have been fine had he and Turiel been left behind in Mirkwood, and so much better if other, important elements had been developed and the gross parts left out. Still, too late now…


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on May 31 2015, 5:20pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 1 2015, 5:49am

Post #73 of 75 (827 views)
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King Elessar the Storyteller [In reply to] Can't Post

The only way I can see Viggo Mortensen in anything resembling a 'bridge film' is if he was used in much the same way as Ian Holm in the Hobbit films--as a framing devise telling his story in flashback. It is a no-brainer to me that a new actor would have to be cast if we needed a Young Aragorn. Nonetheless, I truly believe that a solid, entertaining film could be centered on Aragorn's legendary journeys and errantries.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Laineth
Lorien

Jun 5 2015, 6:57am

Post #74 of 75 (737 views)
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Agreed! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Now, may I offer another point you haven't mentioned? I don't find The Hobbit at all disappointing, I love it, and appreciate it all the more became it seems to me that it was a project beset with problems from the outset - probably more than we'll ever know about. No one who was on the forum in the early days of the production is likely to forget all the upheavals - the legal wrangling, the green light that never came, the union dispute and talk of moving the production elsewhere in the world, Guillermo del Toro leaving, actors who were cast and then left, or looked unlikely to be cast because as time went by they had taken other parts. Watching from the outside it was almost unbearable at times; for those involved it must have been a nightmare. It seemed at times that because this was a very big film attracting a lot of attention everyone with a grudge wanted to target it to get their case heard. Then there was Peter Jackson's illness at the last moment, which set them back again. I honestly believe that this is where all the trouble lay. If only Peter Jackson and his team had been directing from the outset and had been able to shape the story in their own way I think things would have been different. If they had decided on a trilogy and had the green light to go ahead quickly, with all the time that they needed and no looming uncertainty. It may be that the end product wouldn't have been very different - I don't have the problems with it that you seem to - but it would have escaped the perception of being a ship constantly lurching towards the rocks that has dogged it from the start. In this world image is everything, and from the early days these films had the image of impending disaster - people even talked about them being cursed. In the curcumstances I'm amazed that they pulled it off so well, and I suspect that in time people will see that and have the same affection for The Hobbit, warts and all, as they do for LotR.



Laineth
Lorien

Jun 5 2015, 7:11am

Post #75 of 75 (736 views)
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Exactly. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
3) The Hobbit novel is only so slender because it covers a lot of ground with, in many places, very few words and doesn’t develop most of its characters. That works fine in the book but is very different from LotR. So I think that just filming The Hobbit at the same level of detail as LotR would take more than one movie. As well, a movie that would match LotR in breadth and scope had to expand, had to bring in the White Council story, give us more story about Thorin and Bard and Thranduil and develop more of the characters than the book did. There were a myriad of ways the film makers could have done all this and what we see on the screen in how they chose to go. Some of us like their choices, some don’t.

4) Yes they brought in characters, some invented, for specific story purposes or to provide insight into the characters of Thranduil, Legolas, Bard, the Master etc. Fo me thatwas necesary. IMO Legolas needed to be there since he is Thranduil’s son and again IMO, a cameo would not really have worked once we started getting into the politics and society of the Elven realm.


Personally, that's my greatest issue with the book - little character development and almost no backstory.

As Orlando has mentioned many times, it is rare for an elf to leave their home and get involved with mortals. We needed to have an understanding of why Legolas joined the Fellowship and actively created friendships with mortals.

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