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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 31 2015, 9:22am
Post #1 of 32
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**The Fellowship of the Ring Discussion, "Farewell to Lorien - part the 1 and only**
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Welcome to the next chapter! We’ve only been in Lorien two weeks (about half the time Frodo et al. stay), but now it’s time to go! As usual, my job as host is to give a summary of key events as I see them, and some discussion prompts (we really ought to call these “Tolkien Points...”). Please reply with your reactions to this chapter - either using what follows as a stimulus, or simply sharing your own thoughts, questions and reactions.
The questions, discussion points (or Tolkien Points) are meant only to start a discussion. It’s not a quiz or exam paper. Probably most or all of these “Tolkien points” don’t have a definitive answer - so, very often, one reader’s interpretation is as valid as another. I’m sure I haven’t covered all points of interest. Anyway, some of the most interesting points of discussion are where someone suggests a new reading that others of us have not previously seen. So please be bold in sharing your thoughts!
So as to avoid long goodbyes, I thought we could probably cover the chapter in just this one thread, rather than breaking it up into successive parts. But let’s see what you folks want to talk about!
Farewell to Lorien
The Fellowship are summoned to see Celeborn and Galadriel. They are offered a chance to stay in Lorien if they want, but all choose to go on. Other than Boromir, who has always been on his journey home, The Fellowship has not decided whether to go to Minas Tirith, or straight on to Mordor. A gift of boats from Celeborn allows them to delay this decision - but Celeborn emphasises that the boats will not give them counsel: he implies they need to get on with deciding.
Galadriel says “Maybe the paths that you each shall tread are already laid before your feet, though you do not see them.” (What does this mean?)
The Fellowship debate their next destination, without reaching agreement, partly because neither Aragorn nor Frodo gives a lead. We are told of Aragorn’s unspoken dilemma - he had originally planned to go to Minas Tirith, believing that he was summoned to do this by Boromir’s dream. But as Acting Leader after Gandalf’s death, he feels obliged to accompany Frodo. And yet, he is skeptical that he can be of much practical assistance.
(This insight into Aragorn’s thoughts is important for understanding his actions - and hesitation- for the rest of FOTR, I think)
If we got access to Frodo’s thinking at this point, what IS he thinking, do you suppose? For example, does he already know in his heart that he & Sam must split from the others?
An unguarded remark from Boromir, quickly covered up, suggests that he doubts the wisdom of destroying the Ring. Frodo sees something “new and strange in Boromir’s glance”. Frodo is noticing, presumably, that Boromir is reconsidering using the Ring rather than destroying it. It is possible (from Boromir’s comments after the Fellowship’s “testing” by Galadriel at their first meeting) that Galadriel probed him on this point. Is Frodo becoming more perceptive? But this seems to be Frodo’s first inkling of trouble. What has changed - for example, has Frodo become more perceptive during the Lorien stay? Or has Boromir changed - e.g. was it something to do with the ‘temptation’ Galadriel dangled in front of him during the Fellowship’s psychic grilling? That would be an irony, would it not? Or, is Boromir just becoming easier to read (e.g. because he is becoming less able to conceal his thoughts)?
The next morning the Fellowship pack. Elves bring them gifts including lembas and cloaks. Pippin asks whether the cloaks are magic, and this seems to be regarded as a confusing (perhaps ignorant or impolite?) question.
Why this elvish reaction? Why might it be odd, or inappropriate, or nonsensical to ask whether the cloaks are magic? Oh, and are they “magic” in any sense?
The Fellowship sadly leave their lawn-and-fountain campsite, and are taken to their boats waiting on the River. Sam has a brief conversation about ropes. The Fellowship take their boats for a practice paddle.
What might the boats be like - coracles? canoes?
They are met by the Royal Barge. Galadriel is singing a song. I found I had a lot of questions about Galadriel’s songs - mostly because I find them personally puzzling. I’ve put the song stuff in a subthread (see below http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=857079#857079). Please do visit and see if you can help me out!
The Fellowship are invited to a parting feast. Galadriel seems to have changed “She seemed no longer perilous or terrible, nor filled with hidden power.” Do you think this change is in Frodo, in Galadriel, or both? What does it mean?
Celeborn tells them a little of the lands that lie ahead, and warns them not to “risk becoming entangled in the Forest of Fangorn.”
Does the warning against Fangorn make sense (given that M&P do go there, to the general good)? This does not look like an overlooked sentence from earlier drafts where Fangorn was the hostile land of The Giant Treebeard; Tolkien later makes a point of having M&P remember this comment on it to Treebeard. What do you think Celeborn means? ‘Ought he to say this, or is he suddenly being overcome by what the author wants him to say to make us readers dread Fangorn a bit?
The gifts
There is a parting drink, and Galadriel gives the Fellowship gifts (in addition to the substantial and practical aid of boats, food, clothing and other items they’ve already had).
On my first reading, I was expecting each gift to turn out to be something essential to the upcoming plot (e.g. like the gifts Father Christmas gives each Pevensie child in C.S Lewis’ The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe http://wiki.narniaweb.com/...php/Father_Christmas ). But as I see it, Frodo is the only one given a gift that proves essential to him completing his quest. Next most essential is Sam’s gift, perhaps: enabling him to speed up the restoration of the Shire. Legolas gets a bow upgrade (useful loot, but not plot-essential?) Galadriel gives Boromir, Merry and Pippin each a belt.
“What does Galadriel give Aragorn?’ is a bit of a trick question - nope, not the elfstone, technically (see below): Galadriel gives him an Excalibur-like scabbard (with magical blade-preserving properties). That does look like proper D&D or World of Warcraft L00t: but then Aragorn decides to leave his sword unsheathed after the Battle of the Pellenor Fields. So I’m not sure what, if any, significance to put upon Aragorn’s grandmother-in-law-elect giving him a sheath.
HoME fun fact - originally, Gimli was to get the green jewel, which after further revisions goes to Aragorn. So Aragorn also gets the green stone in the published book - something that will link to a future event (he gets the name ‘elfstone’ because of it). It also links back to various older stories (I believe Tolkien couldn’t quite decide what the history of this stone was?) The stone is however, not technically from Galadiel: it’s a present from Arwen, left in Galadriel’s keeping to hand over ‘should you [i.e. Aragorn] pass through this land’.
Why would Arwen make these arrangements, rather than give Aragorn the stone herself? For example - has he passed some kind of test by getting this far? Is it a way of showing Aragorn that Arwen’s powerful grandmother is in favour of their marriage plans? Did Arwen foresee that Aragorn would come to Lorien, & if so has she rather romantically left him this encouragement? (Perhaps a bit like the tradition whereby Apollo astronauts would find, when they unpacked their moon-landing kit, that letters and other loving, morale-boosting items from their families had been packed in with it?) Or, feel free to come up with other theories!
Gimli’s gift is given special treatment. Galadriel has not prepared (or pretends that she has not prepared) anything for him. With unexpected audacity and courtliness, Gimli requests and gets a lady’s favour (three of Galadriel’s hairs). Galadriel does not appear at all displeased, and makes Gimli’s courtesy an object lesson for the court. And so Dwarf-Elf rapprochement advances.
Did you like this bit?
Are we really supposed to believe that Galadriel couldn’t think of a present (not even socks?) Is there some element of her having predicted Gimli’s request and set this up?
Is it a surprisingly medieval-romantic step for this tale? Do you take it seriously or do you think it is a subtle Tolkien joke?
Whether or not we’re supposed to grin at it, Gimli later takes his relationship with Galadriel very seriously (for example nearly getting into a duel with Eomer). Galadriel also takes it seriously (the Appendix-writer assumes that it is her petitioning that ultimately allows Gimli to set off into the West on an elven boat with Legolas).
Thoughts about the meaning(s) of these gifts, if there is a meaning, please! Do the gifts seem unconventional compared with similar situations in other stories? Apart from Frodo’s gift and Sam’s, do the others’ gifts contribute to the story (in any way you might want to mention: the plot, the writing, your interpretation or enjoyment of Middle-earth...)? Or are they symbols? Of what?
The Fellowship depart, with another of Galadriel’s songs to send them on their way. This one is given in Elvish, with a prose translation. (Again, please visit the songs subthread I have made below & see if you can help me work out what this is about!)
The Fellowship speed away. Gimli is heartbroken and is reassured by Legolas:
I have looked the last upon that which was fairest," [Gimli] said to Legolas his companion. "Henceforward I will call nothing fair, unless it be her gift." He put his hand to his breast. […] "Alas for Gimli son of Glóin!"
"Nay!" said Legolas. "Alas for us all! And for all that walk the world in these after-days. For such is the way of it: to find and lose, as it seems to those whose boat is on the running stream. […] But you have not forsaken your companions, and the least reward that you shall have is that the memory of Lothlórien shall remain ever clear and unstained in your heart, and shall neither fade nor grow stale."
Then Legolas’ metaphor of being in a boat on a running stream links to them being called back to reality by the practical need to handle their boat.
What does Legolas mean here - that Gimli’s memories will be untroubled by guilt (c.f. had he decided to stay in Lorien & let the rest of them go on without his help)? Or more/different to that?
In contrast to the Lorien they have left behind, the scenery is dreary and cold. They travel on into the night, still going as the chapter ends with Frodo falling asleep.
I’m sure I’ve missed out on a lot of good things to discuss - what further ‘Tolkien Points’ should I have raised?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets"  : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
(This post was edited by noWizardme on May 31 2015, 9:29am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 31 2015, 9:27am
Post #2 of 32
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I suspect, from earlier discussions, that some of us love Tolkien’s songs deeply; others skip them (or at least did so on initial readings). I’m hoping here that those who have loved these songs dearly and thought about them much can help out those of us who find them difficult 
The first song - “I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew
Galadriel’s first song seems to be a personal lament - Compared with the permanence of Eldamar, Lorien is fading. She has stayed “too long” but “what ship would come to me / What ship would bear me back across so wide a sea?” To me, this song doesn’t sound like a traditional farewell song - it seems personal and introspective: autobiographical, perhaps.
Are we to take at face value that this song is one of the events of the parting, or is it more like an aria or soliloquy? To explain what I mean: some LOTR songs are clearly part of the action. For example, Sam sings the Troll Song to entertain the party, and they react appreciatively. Gimli sings the song of Khazad-dum to recapture for the rest of the Fellowship the former glories of what has now become Moria, and Sam says he’d like to learn that song. Galadriel’s songs could perhaps be part of a ceremony of parting, but as I say, they seem very introspective and personal. So I wonder whether we should think of them as not being straightforwardly sung to the other characters, but like an aria (in some sorts of opera) or a soliloquy. The difference I want to highlight is that in those forms a character steps out of the action to express their thinking or their emotions to the audience. The action stops around them - a character dying of consumption or being stabbed to death can sing out several lusty bel canto choruses without further medical deterioration, or interruption by other characters. If any other characters are on stage, they will show no sign of being aware that the song/speech is going on. They wait on stage until it is over, when “normal time” resumes: the aria or soliloquy simply didn’t happen from any other character’s point of view. Is that what is happening here - that we are getting a privileged insight into Galadriel's thoughts or feelings; one that the Fellowship aren’t getting? Or is Galadriel singing to them as well as to us?
Are there other songs in LOTR that are or might be “arias” (with the meaning I’ve tried to describe above), or which don’t need to be seen as a kind of dialogue between characters?
“Aria” or not, what does Galadriel’s song reveal about her?
(I’m already getting bored of typing inverted commas around “aria” - so if anyone knows a better term, do let me know!)
The second song - “Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen”
The second song gives us (I think) the longest burst of elvish to date, and then a prose translation (and here is Professor Tolkien reciting it in elvish https://youtu.be/6de_SbVUVfA )The song says that “all paths are drowned deep in shadow” and laments the difficulty of finding Valimar. I don’t feel I understand it.(Can anyone interpret it for me?)
Why might Galadriel sing this particular song? For example do you think Galadriel’s song is a customary parting one; is it composed for this occasion; or, perhaps, is it a customary song that is particularly relevant? Or is it a further “aria”?
I’ve mentioned before the website”IamPierreMenard” in which someone blogs about his rather unusual LOTR readthrough project. This included setting the songs to popular contemporary tunes. Galadriel’s second song is set to “The Dog Days Are Over” (Florence and the Machine) and is retitled “The Elf Days Are Over”. The relevant page can be found here: https://iampierremenard.wordpress.com/...eborn-led-them-back/
Also interestingly, IamPierreMenard suggests “Frodo gives us a translation, which I wouldn’t doubt is the basis for how a lot of people started to study Tolkien’s language.” I suppose that’s right: a reader could try to match the elvish and English, working as if cracking a code. Did anyone here ever try to learn Elvish that way? What happened?
Is “The Elf Days Are Over” an insightful title for this song (i.e. is that what Galadriel means - a lament for the passing of the elves of Middle-earth)?
The song ends
Farewell! Maybe thou shalt find Valimar. Maybe even thou shalt find it.
Farewell!
Do you imagine there is literally a “thou” being addressed here? Is Galadriel singing to Frodo maybe (or to herself?)
Or is this too literal: is it a rhetorical thou/you?: for example the National Anthem of the United States of America begins “Oh say can’t you see...” , a rhetorical question. Similarly, the English hymn ‘Jerusalem’ (lyrics by William Blake http://en.wikipedia.org/...feet_in_ancient_time) starts with two rhetorical questions (to which the literal answers are clearly ‘no’ and ‘no’). So, there may no more be a specific and literal “thou” in Galadriel’s song than there is a “you” in the Star Spangled Banner, or a specific “you” as addressed by the singer of an one of a million zillion love songs or poems. What do you think?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 31 2015, 7:10pm
Post #3 of 32
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Are we really supposed to believe that Galadriel couldn’t think of a present (not even socks?) Is there some element of her having predicted Gimli’s request and set this up? (Just picking out a single one of your thoughts from my uni-contemplational brain.)
Maybe Galadriel DID indeed have a gift for Gimli – a belt or a special piece of jewelry or something appropriate.
But after the tongue-lashing Gimli received from Celeborn she felt he deserved some special attention and before giving the gift she had prepared she asked what he would desire the most from her. And Gimli replied “Nothing my Lady, but perhaps a single strand of your hair.” (paraphrase); and she gave him three strands.
The elves present were somewhat amazed and Galadriel decided then and there NOT to give him the prepared gift so this exchange (of words and gift) would remain in the minds of all those present - showing Galadriel’s wisdom and respect for the Dwarf.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 1 2015, 12:43pm
Post #5 of 32
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Hmm, wonder where everyone is.. weekend praps?
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________________________________________
Farewell! Maybe thou shalt find Valimar. Maybe even thou shalt find it.
Farewell!
Do you imagine there is literally a “thou” being addressed here? Is Galadriel singing to Frodo maybe (or to herself?)
Oh, absolutely to herself! And to all the Fellowship. We need but substitute “Valimar” with “Happiness”.
Galadriel says “Maybe the paths that you each shall tread are already laid before your feet, though you do not see them.” (What does this mean?)
She believes in fate, predestination?
If we got access to Frodo’s thinking at this point, what IS he thinking, do you suppose? For example, does he already know in his heart that he & Sam must split from the others?
I believe he’s only thinking of what’s around the next bend. He has been pretty much of a tag-a-long up to this point leaving the heavy decisions to others. I think he has not quite yet fully realized his predicament. If thoughts of “what if” entered his mind at this point he would most likely follow the leader whether to Gondor (first) or more directly to Mordor. He hadn’t yet come to the point of “I will go alone.”
Skipping Boromir’s faux pas. Anyone listening would likely perceive what he almost said.
The next morning the Fellowship pack. Elves bring them gifts including lembas and cloaks. Pippin asks whether the cloaks are magic, and this seems to be regarded as a confusing (perhaps ignorant or impolite?) question.
Why this elvish reaction? Why might it be odd, or inappropriate, or nonsensical to ask whether the cloaks are magic? Oh, and are they “magic” in any sense?
Ah, “Any sufficiently advanced. . .”, you know the quote, but we might substitute “advanced” with “different” here. As with Galadriel’s apparent puzzlement when Sam asked if her mirror was magic. Well, not to her. Just a tool.
The robes may have been made of some unknown Elvish material (look forward to the hithlain rope) as they clearly took on different hues depending on the disposition of the wearer.
Perhaps the Elves were confused at Pippin’s question for the same reason Galadriel was puzzled at Sam’s question. The robes were just ordinary wear to them, nothing special.
What might the boats be like - coracles? canoes?More canoe-like, as Haldir says they were wayward and entering and exiting should be practiced under safe conditions.
Quick thoughts More later praps. Thanks for leading noWiz
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 1:11pm
Post #6 of 32
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I think that's it - It's not 'magic' if you're used to it.
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“Any sufficiently advanced. . .”, you know the quote, but we might substitute “advanced” with “different” here. As with Galadriel’s apparent puzzlement when Sam asked if her mirror was magic. Well, not to her. Just a tool.
The robes may have been made of some unknown Elvish material (look forward to the hithlain rope) as they clearly took on different hues depending on the disposition of the wearer.
Perhaps the Elves were confused at Pippin’s question for the same reason Galadriel was puzzled at Sam’s question. The robes were just ordinary wear to them, nothing special.
That puts rather better something I've been thinking. I was imagining in real life going to a hiking/camping store, or a sports goods shop say. You pick out some specialized high-tec footware - are these 'science shoes'? You ask in wonder.
The sales assistant might be a bit baffled by this question. Someone good at selling would quickly pick up on the thought & use it to advance the sale, odd though the phrasing seems. Yes, indeed these are 'science shoes'! Firstly they are made from special materials created by a whole lot of materials science. And their design was shaped by the results of much research and experiment, drawing on work from several of the sciences. Definitely worth, sir, paying at least twice what you pay for your regular footwear.
The elves aren't selling, I suppose: hence their amusement (if that is what it is) at the idea of 'magic cloaks'.
I think there might be some linguistic issue here too - the provincial hobbits are using common Westron word 'magic' for 'unexplained and amazing stuff'. I infer the elves might have several more specific words, depending on the way the 'magic' effect is produced, and maybe on the moral intention behind it. I thought that seemed to be Galadriel's issue with the word last chapter
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 1 2015, 8:46pm
Post #7 of 32
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The first song - “I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew
I’ve often wondered about this ‘lament’. It seems that, most especially, the last lines seem to show a doubt in the mind of Galadriel. Does she not know at this point that all is forgiven and she will be allowed to sail West?
She sings this with the aid of a harp. I wonder if anyone has ever attempted to do it justice?
I can’t say why she chose this time to sing this song. “A music came down the river as it [the swan boat] drew nearer . . .” Perhaps she was singing for those in the swan boat; and the Fellowship heard only the strings of the harp and a faint but indistinguishable voice. (But of course this doesn’t jive if it was Frodo (or Sam) that wrote this part.)
I just love  the meter of this poem. How could anyone read the first two lines and not be hooked into its totality?
I sang of leaves, of leaves of gold, and leaves of gold there grew:
Of wind I sang, a wind there came and in the branches blew.
The second song - “Ai! laurië lantar lassi súrinen”
Yes, I found this ‘lengthy’ bit of Quenya fun to decipher. No I haven’t learned Elvish – I have enough trouble with Englush. (Tolkien calls this the “language of Elven-song”, but is it not all Quenya?)
BTW my wife’s name is Laurel and she goes by Laurie.
Meaning? Can’t help you much there. It seems as the first song simply a lament – missing Valimar. Again though she was “small and distant” and it “seemed to Frodo”; but now he definitely heard and remember the words, but did not understand them (at the time).
Hmm, perhaps to the Elves this was poetry, whereas translated into Westron it is simply beautiful free-verse.
Both of these songs, although pleasing to the ear, and meaningful, seem somehow almost inappropriate as would some (or most) of the Fellowship be somewhat confused by them?
Just thinking. . .
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 8:49pm
Post #8 of 32
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Does that mean you're going to score our answers, and if so, can I turn in my points for a cool prize? Otherwise, what's the Point of Tolkien?
Anyway:
Galadriel, feet, and paths: the ol' girl is a believer in fate, and thinks everyone's fate is already determined for them, at least the general outline, if not the details. And who knows what she sees in her magic mirror when she's on her own time?
Frodo: I think he remains indecisive and is afraid of the quest, increasingly afraid as he approaches Mordor, as any sensible hobbit would be, and also shaken into reality by the death of Gandalf. So far they survived Caradhras, the Wargs, and the Watcher, plus the battle in Mazarbul, so things seemed pretty good quest-wise, but I think losing his wizard-guide has made Frodo realize that this quest involves personal loss, and that's only beginning.
Boromir: can I answer "yes" to all your questions? Boromir is more corrupted and easier to read, Frodo is more perceptive, and Galadriel flipped a switch in Boromir by tempting him with something he had been repressing.
Magic cloaks: this is akin to Galadriel saying she doesn't understand what hobbits mean by magic. It's more of the Elf/hobbit racial divide. I'm sure hobbits put their love into all they make too, but that doesn't impart magical qualities. But if magic is as automatic as breathing, you would think it odd that your guests ask you, "Why are you breathing? Do you breathe all the time? Why do you breathe differently than I do?"
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jun 1 2015, 9:08pm
Post #9 of 32
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The sadness of elves versus the sadness of mortals
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What has changed - for example, has Frodo become more perceptive during the Lorien stay? Or has Boromir changed - e.g. was it something to do with the ‘temptation’ Galadriel dangled in front of him during the Fellowship’s psychic grilling? That would be an irony, would it not? Or, is Boromir just becoming easier to read (e.g. because he is becoming less able to conceal his thoughts)?
I believe the change is in Frodo. Or, rather, continuing to grow in Frodo. Aragorn, and the rest of the company, are surprisingly oblivious to Boromir's behavior. Besides, Galadriel told us last night that Frodo has special perception.
I can't imagine that Galadriel triggered Boromir's fall for the Ring. Nor his redemption. Both are Boromir's choice.
Nor would I expect Galadriel to warn Frodo directly, she's not exerting any controlling (evil) power.
The Fellowship are invited to a parting feast. Galadriel seems to have changed “She seemed no longer perilous or terrible, nor filled with hidden power.” Do you think this change is in Frodo, in Galadriel, or both? What does it mean?
Galadriel had 'passed the test'. She was free of any desire to wield the Ring, so the peril is gone.
Celeborn tells them a little of the lands that lie ahead, and warns them not to “risk becoming entangled in the Forest of Fangorn.
When Celeborn talks about "old wives" stories, I think he seems a less elvish than ever, and more like our author.
Galadriel gives Boromir, Merry and Pippin each a belt.
Didn't Thror (the god of Thunder not the dwarf) have a golden belt that made him stronger? We never hear about Merry and Pippins belts again, though their knives and cloaks get some good use.
So I’m not sure what, if any, significance to put upon Aragorn’s grandmother-in-law-elect giving him a sheath.
Narsil, broken, was still a significant weapon.
I'm not willing to begin a sword/sheath masculine/feminine discussion. Will leave it to the imagination.
How did Aragorn manage to travel to the Black Gates with Narsil unsheathed? Sounds risky to me!
Why would Arwen make these arrangements, rather than give Aragorn the stone herself?
I'd expect Arwen to have a gift of foresight. It runs in the family. He wasn't ready before to take on his name.
Is there some element of her having predicted Gimli’s request and set this up?
She did happen to have a pair of scissors with her, which is not the sort of thing I'd take on a picnic.
The gift of hair to Gimli is especially significant when you recall that Feanor was denied the same request several times. But Galadriel had already seen into Gimli's heart, and knew it was good.
I'm wondering about the sadness of elves versus the sadness of mortals. Mortals, where I guess I'd group the dwarves, don't have memories like elves. We also don't have long to think about them. Everything in our lives, including our lives, is over quickly. Our memories fade so fast. While it may seem good to forget a bad event, I agree with Gimli that the fading of a good memory brings sadness. Elves, however, have a long long time to remember their joys. And just as long to recall their sorrows.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 9:16pm
Post #10 of 32
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My new favorite explanation too. Far out!! //
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 9:30pm
Post #11 of 32
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If I were Tolkien's writing teacher, I'd give him big marks in red about "Need transition here!" pertaining to the royal picnic. Why doesn't someone say to them as they get in their boats, "Paddle downstream a little and you'll meet the Lord & Lady for a farewell feast?" It's not like it would overburden the page count with unnecessary verbiage. It's a part of the book that makes me say, "huh? Why does Galadriel just pop up unannounced again? What if they'd decided to take a nap before heading downstream and missed her?"
Anyway, it's amazing how she's changed on the power scale, as if the dwindling to a lesser folk has happened overnight, which doesn't seem possible. Instead I'd suggest that she's at peace with herself now, and what seemed like "power" before was her inner conflict, plus her ages-long desire to rule and be a Queen of something grand. Now she's accepted she'll never be queen of anything again and has entered a humbler phase of life.
Celeborn could be criticized for being too xenophobic and ignorant about the outside world, but to be fair, Treebeard did consider stepping on the hobbits first and figuring out what they were later, so he had a good point about it being a dangerous place.
The gifts: they are pretty underwhelming for our B-level characters, aren't they? I'm left wondering if Tolkien didn't want special, Phial- and Magic Garden Box-like gifts for each person because with 8 people, we'd lose track of who had what magic gift, and they wouldn't seem magical anymore. Or did he run out of ideas? Whatever it was, they were underwhelming.
I like the idea that Arwen left the Elfstone behind out of foresight; it's the only sense I've ever been able to make of it.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
Jun 1 2015, 9:47pm
Post #12 of 32
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Why does Galadriel just pop up unannounced again? What if they'd decided to take a nap before heading downstream and missed her?
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 2 2015, 8:53am
Post #13 of 32
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So I’m not sure what, if any, significance to put upon Aragorn’s grandmother-in-law-elect giving him a sheath.
Narsil, broken, was still a significant weapon.
I'm not willing to begin a sword/sheath masculine/feminine discussion. Will leave it to the imagination.
OK, my apologies - I was inviting a quick puerile snigger, but then intending we could have a serious discussion. I should have made the latter part clearer.
Possibly there's a serious male/female Freudian point to make here - but if so, I don't know what it is.
A scabbard is probably a very practical present - I imagine that taking care of your weapon would be a serious concern for a warrior in the field. If anyone comes by with experience of metal blades - whether military, re-enactment or martial arts, the real-life expertise would be most interesting.
I think there's an Arthurian parallel here - didn't Excalibur have a similar magic scabbard, which Morgan Le Fay tricks Arthur out of? Note the other aspects of Lorien that might seem a bit Arthurian: Gimli chivalrously acquiring a Lady's favour, ad Celeborn being subsumed into the role of idealised King. any thoughts on possible Arthurian angles, if you know about those stories?
The other interesting thing about this present, though, is that it seems to anticipate the possibility of failure:
`The blade that is drawn from this sheath shall not be stained or broken even in defeat,'
Does it seem a little odd, or merely practical, to send the hero out with such a thought? ('Stained' I imagine is the practical issue of keeping the blade rust- and gore-free: broken sounds more catastrophic).
Equipment breakage does seem very common in Middle-earth - often at a moment of acute crisis, frequently when the hero is killed or gravely injured (we had a discussion about it here http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=626284#626284 for example)
The particular broken blade that Galadriel's present brings to mind is of course Narsil. Is this present to reassure Aragorn that he won't end up like Elendil? If a link to Elendil is intended, I can't say I understand it - ideas welcome!
Of course it is also possible that I'm over-thinking this: maybe Tolkein wanted this scene for a couple of key presents (maybe the phial, box of earth, the elvenstone and Gimli's Favour) and just filled in the rest of the presents with suitable-sounding loot. But I wonder....
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 2 2015, 9:02am
Post #14 of 32
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Oh, no point-scoring, but presents for everyone
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You can have three hares if you like...
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 2 2015, 10:03am
Post #15 of 32
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Good idea - lets wonder about the sadness of elves versus the sadness of mortals.
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I'm wondering about the sadness of elves versus the sadness of mortals. Mortals, where I guess I'd group the dwarves, don't have memories like elves. We also don't have long to think about them. Everything in our lives, including our lives, is over quickly. Our memories fade so fast. While it may seem good to forget a bad event, I agree with Gimli that the fading of a good memory brings sadness. Elves, however, have a long long time to remember their joys. And just as long to recall their sorrows.
I think you mean that Legolas is wrongly extrapolating from his own experience? (That is that mortal Gimli's happy memory WILL fade, but immortal Legolas doesn't understand this, and the sadness it brings his friend.) That seems a reasonable explanation!
I do have some other thoughts we might discuss, but they don't amount to a theory.
First, how permanent are good versus bad memories? A thought from an unexpected source:
It is just as well that the body retains no memory of pain. Yes, it hurt, that abscess, that broken bone, but just how it hurt, and how much, is soon forgotten by the brain and the nerves. It is not so with pleasant sensations, a scent, a taste, the particular texture of a kiss. These things can be almost totally recalled.
Ian Flemming (in Thunderball)
That chimes with my experience - thinking back to a particular walking holiday I remember the sunsets, not the blisters.
Not particularly related thought 2:
Is Gimli's problem that this period in Lorien was so perfect that he can't believe anything else in his life can possibly match it? In which case, Legolas' advice is probably practical - life will flow on and bring new sights and adventures.
Not particularly related thought 3:
Looking forward, or backward: I once read an essay about Time in Middle-earth, but I sadly can't remember much about it now. I do recall the idea that mortal cultures mentally face the future - looking forward with anticipation (good or bad) of what is to come. The elves, she suggests are backward-looking - shoved reluctantly backwards into the future.
Not particularly related thought 4:
I note Gimli's plan for the 3 golden hairs is a long-term, multi-generational one. When asked what he plans to do with such a gift, he says:
‘Treasure it, Lady,’ he answered, ‘in memory of your words to me at our first meeting. And if ever I return to the smithies of my home, it shall be set in imperishable crystal to be an heirloom of my house, and a pledge of good will between the Mountain and the Wood until the end of days.’
This sounds political as well as personal: not only does Gimli want to remember his unexpectedly wonderful time (and to be remembered), but I think he plans that there will be a line of dwarves who won't listen to easy racial slander about elves, because the Great Elf Queen was a friend of their revered ancestor. (Tangentially I don't know whether we're told anywhere whether Gimli has any descendants)
Apologies if this seems a bit rambling - I've not (yet) managed to synthesise these ideas, but thought that it might be interesting to discuss them anyway....
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 2 2015, 11:25am
Post #16 of 32
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Right, lucky Gimli gets the hares from the hot blond
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I'm stuck with brunette hares. (*ducks for cover*)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 2 2015, 12:20pm
Post #17 of 32
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Strawberries in the Gladden Fields, Forever, and other Lorien hits
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I'm with Bracegirdle in my overall reader impression that these songs are rather inappropriate for the Fellowship, who 1) don't understand them, and 2) need some cheering up and a rallying sendoff (why didn't Boromir sound his horn?), so it's a good thing they don't understand them. But Elves have a license to be sad, so I guess reproach isn't possible.
Yes, the first is like an aria sung to inform the reader of Galadriel's thoughts and feelings at the time; entirely introspective. I suppose she's just faced the coming collapse of the queendom she's wanted since the First Age, so she can be forgiven for lamenting aloud. And it's pretty to hear. Certainly it furthers the sense of mystery and profundity of Elves.
For the second one, I suppose Aragorn and possibly Legolas understand it, and maybe Frodo catches some words he knows, but he never seems fluent in Quenya to me, more a dabbler. I do think the "thou" is aimed at him, as Galadriel is charitably suggesting and probably foreseeing that at the end of his quest, he'll be worn out and should be rewarded with a stay in Valimar--I take this literally. That means even skipping purgatory on Tol Eressea.
And maybe Gimli was mistaken and thought the "thou" was aimed at him, entitling him to a trip West with Legolas--once again her designs have gone amiss. :) Or maybe because I do think The Elf Days Are Over (if this is really the heart of Elvendom in ME coming to an end, what else can we think?), she was cluing in Legolas to that fact as well, which ties in with her warning to him about avoiding seagulls that would awaken his yearning for the sea.
Great questions, WIz! I probably don't understand the songs well enough to do justice to your thoughts here.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 2 2015, 12:33pm
Post #18 of 32
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<sigh> Very well, three Golden Hares for you - but don't blame me if...
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Very well, three Golden Hares for you (as the term is understood in these parts) - but don't blame me if you become somewhat emotional after that lot....
....actually, come to think of it, is this what 'ales' Gimli in the boat & makes him all maudlin?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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oliphaunt
Lorien
Jun 2 2015, 4:09pm
Post #19 of 32
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The road keeps looking shorter.
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I think you mean that Legolas is wrongly extrapolating from his own experience? (That is that mortal Gimli's happy memory WILL fade, but immortal Legolas doesn't understand this, and the sadness it brings his friend.) That seems a reasonable explanation!
Yes that sounds about right. Elves are sad when they have thousands of years of sadness to recall. Mortals, because they expect a short and ever-shorter time for future happiness, plus a short and fading memory.
It is just as well that the body retains no memory of pain. Yes, it hurt, that abscess, that broken bone, but just how it hurt, and how much, is soon forgotten by the brain and the nerves. It is not so with pleasant sensations, a scent, a taste, the particular texture of a kiss. These things can be almost totally recalled.
Ian Flemming (in Thunderball)
That chimes with my experience - thinking back to a particular walking holiday I remember the sunsets, not the blisters.
Maybe you are blessed with a good selective memory. I bet those with "PTSD" would disagree with Mr. Flemming.
For me, I find that all things fade with time, the good and the bad. I can remember them, but the emotional weight is gone. But then, I've got more years behind me than ahead. The road keeps looking shorter.
Not particularly related thought 2:
Is Gimli's problem that this period in Lorien was so perfect that he can't believe anything else in his life can possibly match it? In which case, Legolas' advice is probably practical - life will flow on and bring new sights and adventures.
I think he wants to hold on to it, and knows he can't. The whole Company is going down the river, and Lorien is slipping away.
Not particularly related thought 3:
Looking forward, or backward: I once read an essay about Time in Middle-earth, but I sadly can't remember much about it now. I do recall the idea that mortal cultures mentally face the future - looking forward with anticipation (good or bad) of what is to come. The elves, she suggests are backward-looking - shoved reluctantly backwards into the future.
Yes, I can understand that point. The Elven rings are for preservation. Maybe this gets at why the Elves seem to both desire and dread the sea and the Havens - they have memories and lore about Elevenhome, but are reluctant to actually go there.
This sounds political as well as personal: not only does Gimli want to remember his unexpectedly wonderful time (and to be remembered), but I think he plans that there will be a line of dwarves who won't listen to easy racial slander about elves, because the Great Elf Queen was a friend of their revered ancestor.
Yes, he's all for healing the dwarf/elf rift. He also forges dwarf/man and dwarf/hobbit bonds. Hmmnn, I'm growing fonder of Gimli.
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Meneldor
Valinor
Jun 4 2015, 1:51am
Post #21 of 32
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A scabbard is probably a very practical present - I imagine that taking care of your weapon would be a serious concern for a warrior in the field. If anyone comes by with experience of metal blades - whether military, re-enactment or martial arts, the real-life expertise would be most interesting. I ruined the finish of one sword by leaving it too long in the scabbard. Condensation formed inside it and rusted the blade.  So to care for a sword properly, you need to take it out often and let it "breathe" as well as clean and polish it, otherwise it might even rust itself into the sheath and be difficult or impossible to draw it in a hurry. So, yeah, a magic scabbard that keeps the blade unstained would be a very considerate gift for the busy ranger on the go who has little time for polishing his heirloom blade.
They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107
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Darkstone
Immortal
Jun 5 2015, 2:04pm
Post #22 of 32
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Galadhrim Knights and Elves at Helm's Deep
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Galadriel says “Maybe the paths that you each shall tread are already laid before your feet, though you do not see them.” (What does this mean?)
"It's a dangerous business going out of your door. You step into the Road, and if you don't keep your feet, there is no knowing where you might be swept off to.”
If we got access to Frodo’s thinking at this point, what IS he thinking, do you suppose?
“I wonder what Bilbo is doing? Still hungry. Wonder what’s for second breakfast? Tra-la-lally-tra-la! What’s Lobelia doing to the wainscotting? Dum-de-dum. So is Aragorn still Strider? Could really use a smoke. Rum-te-tum. Fried mushrooms would be good for brunch. Or Lunch. Or dinner. Wonder when my shoulder will stop hurting? Pindon, pindoch, pidol, pida, pidam, pidach, pedal, pidar. Galadriel sure is pretty. La-de-dah-de-dah. I really miss Gandalf. All my fault. Everything’s gone wrong. All my fault. I can’t do this….”
For example, does he already know in his heart that he & Sam must split from the others?
Himself, but he means to leave Sam behind.
An unguarded remark from Boromir, quickly covered up, suggests that he doubts the wisdom of destroying the Ring. Frodo sees something “new and strange in Boromir’s glance”. Frodo is noticing, presumably, that Boromir is reconsidering using the Ring rather than destroying it. It is possible (from Boromir’s comments after the Fellowship’s “testing” by Galadriel at their first meeting) that Galadriel probed him on this point. Is Frodo becoming more perceptive? But this seems to be Frodo’s first inkling of trouble. What has changed - for example, has Frodo become more perceptive during the Lorien stay? Or has Boromir changed - e.g. was it something to do with the ‘temptation’ Galadriel dangled in front of him during the Fellowship’s psychic grilling? That would be an irony, would it not? Or, is Boromir just becoming easier to read (e.g. because he is becoming less able to conceal his thoughts)?
I think Boromir saw that the supposedly big bad dangerous Elves really weren’t as perilous as everyone thought they were, so then maybe likewise all the hype about how corrupting and unusable the One Ring was was overblown as well.
The next morning the Fellowship pack. Elves bring them gifts including lembas and cloaks. Pippin asks whether the cloaks are magic, and this seems to be regarded as a confusing (perhaps ignorant or impolite?) question.
Why this elvish reaction?
“Oh, you’re an Elf? Then you must be good at magic!” Kinda similar to assuming all Asian-Americans must be good at math or all African-Americans must be good at sports.
Why might it be odd, or inappropriate, or nonsensical to ask whether the cloaks are magic?
It’s like assuming a beautiful and very well-made crocheted blanket at an arts and crafts fair must be a product of mass-production. Really insults the talent of the craftsperson.
Oh, and are they “magic” in any sense?
Any sufficiently explained magic is undistinguishable from technology.
The Fellowship sadly leave their lawn-and-fountain campsite, and are taken to their boats waiting on the River. Sam has a brief conversation about ropes. The Fellowship take their boats for a practice paddle.
What might the boats be like - coracles? canoes?
Tom Bombadil also goes about in a cockle-boat. I think they’re probably hollowed out trees but with the spirit of the trees still in them so they tend to be self-directing if you’re not careful.
The Fellowship are invited to a parting feast. Galadriel seems to have changed “She seemed no longer perilous or terrible, nor filled with hidden power.” Do you think this change is in Frodo, in Galadriel, or both? What does it mean?
I think the change is in Lothlorien. It’s now in the mainstream.
Celeborn tells them a little of the lands that lie ahead, and warns them not to “risk becoming entangled in the Forest of Fangorn.”
Obviously Celeborn has attended an entmoot.
Does the warning against Fangorn make sense (given that M&P do go there, to the general good)?
Of course the entmoot M&P were involved in was fast-tracked by Treebeard. One can only imagine how many months Celeborn had to sit with his eyes propped open.
This does not look like an overlooked sentence from earlier drafts where Fangorn was the hostile land of The Giant Treebeard; Tolkien later makes a point of having M&P remember this comment on it to Treebeard. What do you think Celeborn means?
“You’d be better off going on to Minas Tirith and watch paint dry.”
‘Ought he to say this, or is he suddenly being overcome by what the author wants him to say to make us readers dread Fangorn a bit?
Well, ents do tend to squish things willy-nilly, and then there are the bloodthirsty huorns, but I still think dying of thirst, hunger, and boredom while an ent takes a day and a half to say “good morning” is the greater threat.
The gifts
There is a parting drink, and Galadriel gives the Fellowship gifts (in addition to the substantial and practical aid of boats, food, clothing and other items they’ve already had).
On my first reading, I was expecting each gift to turn out to be something essential to the upcoming plot (e.g. like the gifts Father Christmas gives each Pevensie child in C.S Lewis’ The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe http://wiki.narniaweb.com/...php/Father_Christmas ).
Actually they are, but Tolkien, as always, is a lot more subtle than Lewis.
HoME fun fact - originally, Gimli was to get the green jewel, which after further revisions goes to Aragorn. So Aragorn also gets the green stone in the published book - something that will link to a future event (he gets the name ‘elfstone’ because of it). It also links back to various older stories (I believe Tolkien couldn’t quite decide what the history of this stone was?) The stone is however, not technically from Galadiel: it’s a present from Arwen, left in Galadriel’s keeping to hand over ‘should you [i.e. Aragorn] pass through this land’.
Why would Arwen make these arrangements, rather than give Aragorn the stone herself?
I’m thinking she’s wanting to get around the Internal Rivendell Service’s annual gift tax exclusion limit by donating through a front. Daddy’s going to be mad if he ever finds out.
For example - has he passed some kind of test by getting this far?
Minus points for not stopping to ask for directions.
Is it a way of showing Aragorn that Arwen’s powerful grandmother is in favour of their marriage plans?
Or she knew Granny was going to pawn off a cheap scabbard on him.
Did Arwen foresee that Aragorn would come to Lorien, & if so has she rather romantically left him this encouragement? (Perhaps a bit like the tradition whereby Apollo astronauts would find, when they unpacked their moon-landing kit, that letters and other loving, morale-boosting items from their families had been packed in with it?) Or, feel free to come up with other theories!
My dear first wife would place little notes in my lunchbox. I really wish I had kept those.
Gimli’s gift is given special treatment. Galadriel has not prepared (or pretends that she has not prepared) anything for him. With unexpected audacity and courtliness, Gimli requests and gets a lady’s favour (three of Galadriel’s hairs). Galadriel does not appear at all displeased, and makes Gimli’s courtesy an object lesson for the court. And so Dwarf-Elf rapprochement advances.
Did you like this bit?
One of my most favoritest of passages, along with the Dwarven Happy Dance in Fangorn and Gimli’s dissing contests with Eomer.
Are we really supposed to believe that Galadriel couldn’t think of a present (not even socks?)
I’m sure she could come up with a list, but Dwarves can be notoriously prickly and there is always the possibility of giving insult by the wrong gift. Elven-made weapons and/or armor might give the inference that Dwarven-made ones are inferior. Same with Elven-made jewelry. And of course razors are right out. Best to have him fill out a wish list.
Is there some element of her having predicted Gimli’s request and set this up?
Everyone seems surprised, but I suppose she might have. But to what purpose? If she indeed could predict what Gimli wanted, why not another gift and not this?
Is it a surprisingly medieval-romantic step for this tale?
It’s perhaps a nice clue of how Dwarven courtship works.
Or Tolkien revisiting the courtly love in Sir Gawain and the Green Knight and tweaking it more to his liking.
Or maybe something to subtly point out the Marian aspect of Galadriel.
Do you take it seriously or do you think it is a subtle Tolkien joke?
Yes.
Whether or not we’re supposed to grin at it, Gimli later takes his relationship with Galadriel very seriously (for example nearly getting into a duel with Eomer). Galadriel also takes it seriously (the Appendix-writer assumes that it is her petitioning that ultimately allows Gimli to set off into the West on an elven boat with Legolas).
I love the title “Lockbearer”.
Thoughts about the meaning(s) of these gifts, if there is a meaning, please! Do the gifts seem unconventional compared with similar situations in other stories? Apart from Frodo’s gift and Sam’s, do the others’ gifts contribute to the story (in any way you might want to mention: the plot, the writing, your interpretation or enjoyment of Middle-earth...)? Or are they symbols? Of what?
All have great significance to the characters and in later developments.
Aragorn
Aragorn’s scabbard is the most obvious. First, the sheath is a reminder to Aragorn that there will be times coming when it will be best to put away the sword. Second, the sword is a masculine symbol while the sheath is feminine. Many mistakes Aragorn makes in the beginning of the quest seem related to an overabundance of testosterone. It’s only when he finally listens to his heart rather than his head (”My heart speaks clearly at last”) that things finally start going right for him. Basically Galadriel is telling him to get in touch with his feminine side. Note that by the Pelennor he has received a more personal feminine token: Arwen’s banner so now he can once again run around with his sword hanging out.
BTW, a scabbard is basically a sleeve, and from Chrétien de Troyes’s 12th century Arthurian cycle poem “Erec et Enide” describing ladies choosing their champions at a tournament:
“Many an ensign of red, blue, and white, many a veil and many a sleeve were bestowed as tokens of love.”
Given that Aragorn is a descendant of Isildur the Faithful, one of the Elf-friends, one can see how this gift would signify him becoming a champion of Galadriel, Lothlorien, and Elves in general, especially if the sheath comes with a belt. (See the significance of belts below.)
Boromir
Boromir’s gift of a golden belt is perhaps the richest in significance. First, in medieval times knighthood is granted by the bestowal of a belt. (aka the cingulum militia (belt of knighthood) or the cingulum militaris (knightly belt)). Thus Boromir is made a knight of Galadriel and Elf-Friend. Additionally the belt is a reaffirmation of the loyalty of The Faithful of Numenor, their obedience to the will of the Valar, and their eternal friendship with the Elves. That is, it is a recognition by Galadriel that in the land of Gondor the blood of Númenor is not spent, nor all its pride and dignity forgotten. As for the symbolism of a belt, it is a bond, it encloses and encircles the self, it forms an unending circle.
Like a ring.
Indeed, one can see the gift of the golden belt as Galadriel girding Boromir against the temptations of golden Ring. Gandalf calls him “a warrior, and a lord of men” and this gift affirms that identity, as opposed to the ring, which would make him a user of magic and enslaver of men. Though not enough to save his life, it does help save his soul.
(BTW, I suppose I could mention Revelation 15:6, but I won’t.)
Merry and Pippin
Like Boromir, M&P receive belts which thus make them knights of Lothlorien, champions of Galadriel, and Elf-friends. Note the belts are silver, which is the color of Atonement, and thus by honoring the bond of brotherhood between the “Three Galad-teers” by fighting to save them Boromir is redeemed. As for the effect on M&P, the belts give military gravitas and spiritual authority, far more impressive than the mere increase of physical stature that the entdraught gives them, that will impress all in their travels, and at the end fill the ruffians with fear.
(And of course belt = ring, etc., etc.)
BTW, the buckles on the belts are in the form of a golden flower. One immediately thinks of the flower elanor, but it’s yellow, not gold. The golden flower would seem to indicate one of the twelve houses of Gondolin, specifically the House of the Golden Flower, of which Glorfindel was lord. Coincidence? I think not!!
Gimli
As for Gimli’s gift, the three strands represent the three times Galadriel refused a similar request from Fëanor, resulting in them becoming unfriends forver, the creation of the simarils, kin-slaying, dark oaths, mass murder, umpteen wars, fire and brimstone coming down from the skies, rivers and seas boiling, forty years of darkness, earthquakes, volcanoes, the dead rising from the grave, human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together...
Er…
Anyway, apparently Galadriel learned her lesson and just granted Gimli’s request rather than risk another three Ages of bad luck. Either that or because Gimli asked “so courteous“.
Only problem is, “the Eldar said that the light of the Two Trees, Laurelin and Telperion, had been snared in her tresses”, so when Gimli puts them within “imperishable crystal” we’ll have yet another silmaril causing havoc in the world! Gee, thanks Galadriel!
Anyway, again we have a common motif of courtly love, this time of a lady granting her knight a token of her hair. (Just how many knights is Galadriel gonna make anyway?)
Finally, I just love the title “Lock-bearer”.
Legolas
Legolas gets a bow of the Galadhrim, strung with elf-hair, and a quiver of arrows. Assuming that elf-hair has the same properties as human hair, the bow string is water proof (very important during the rain-soaked battle of Helm’s Deep) and abrasive resistant (so it lasts longer before needing replacement). On the downside human hair bowstrings are heavier than most fiber made strings, but inasmuch as this is elf-hair we’re talking about we might assume elf-hair is lighter and so there is no downside.
That said, magically speaking, hair is said to contain part of the soul (or in the case of Elves it would be the spirit) of its donor. Thus the gift of the Galadhrim bow is the Elves of Lothlorien telling Legolas “We will be with you in spirit during all of your battles”. Which means Peter Jackson was right: In the book there *was* a company of Elves at Helm’s Deep, but present in spirit rather than actual body.
As for the quiver of arrows:
”The Talmud and the African tribe, the Masai, both teach a wisdom for our wounded world. They both taught:
‘Sticks alone can be broken by a child, but sticks in a bundle are unbreakable.’”
- Rabbi Marc Gellman, prayer at Yankee Stadium, September 23, 2001
That is, the Three Hunters are stronger with each other, as is Frodo with Sam, and Merry with Pippin.
BTW, in medieval Europe quivers of arrows were not worn on the back but suspended from a belt. (Yes, all those Robin Hood movies got it wrong.) So did Galadriel also give Legolas a belt?
(Like with Boromir I could mention Revelation, specifically 6:2, but I won’t.)
Sam
Galadriel emphasizes that Sam’s gift is not for the journey or the war, but for the peace, revealing the chief precept of the war goddess Athena: “Win the war, but also win the peace”. Though Galadriel describes it in FOTR as a box of earth from her orchard, when Sam finally opens it in ROTK he finds a small nut with a silver shale (shell). Thus is revealed that Sam, like Frodo, also followed in the steps of Isildur, only instead of bearing Isildur’s Bane, Sam carried Isildur’s Boon (so to speak)! Like Isildur carried the fruit of Nimloth from the sinking Numenor, and later the seedling of the White Tree from the conquered Minas Ithil, Sam carries the seed of Galadriel’s mallorn from fading Lothlorien. In many ways Sam was granted perhaps Galadriel’s most precious gifts: her trust. And her memory: ’Then you may remember Galadriel, and catch a glimpse far off of Lórien, that you have seen only in our winter.’
Frodo
Frodo’s Phial of Galadriel seems pretty straight-forward, basically like something Q issues to James Bond which just by coincidence happen to be exactly what Agent 007 will need in a highly unlikely situation during his next adventure. Of course it functions (usually) like that, but it’s also something far much more.
Consider:
”He may become like a glass filled with a clear light for eyes to see that can.”
-Many Meetings
Then as he had kept watch Sam had noticed that at times a light seemed to be shining faintly within; but now the light was even clearer and stronger.
-Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
That is, the vial is Frodo. Galadriel has given Frodo something that will become extremely important in the coming quest: An anchor for his self.
What does Legolas mean here - that Gimli’s memories will be untroubled by guilt (c.f. had he decided to stay in Lorien & let the rest of them go on without his help)? Or more/different to that?
Psychologist Daniel Kahneman would describe it as the tyranny of the remembering self: “Odd as it may seem, I am my remembering self, and the experiencing self, who does my living, is like a stranger to me.” (“Living, Fast and Slow”)
Basically, it’s memories of experiences that make you happy (or sad), not the experience itself. (Think the vacation memory implants in Total Recall (1990).)
And I guess Professor K knows what he’s talking about since he won a Nobel prize.
I’m sure I’ve missed out on a lot of good things to discuss - what further ‘Tolkien Points’ should I have raised?
Uh...
******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
(This post was edited by Darkstone on Jun 5 2015, 2:19pm)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
Jun 5 2015, 4:46pm
Post #23 of 32
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I'm impressed right out of facetiousness!
I do kinda wonder whether Arwen's bothers' secret mission was actually to leave a treasure trail around Middle -earth; items for Aragorn to collect according to some odd elvish marriage custom. He entirely missed the toaster that the balrog was keeping for him...
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 6 2015, 3:33am
Post #24 of 32
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You can have three hares if you like...
so.... galadriel gave gimli fiver, hazel, and bigwig?
cheers ---
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
Jun 6 2015, 4:23pm
Post #25 of 32
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i do think the definition of magic, a la arthur c. clarke, that you have referenced is very useful.
during my recent rereads / relistenings of lotr, my ears prick up every time tolkien uses the word "magic" --- and (if i may say) which i think he uses inconsistently.
there is ample fodder for many threads on this topic, but i will dip my toe into the water with just a few mentions....
in preparing for bilbo's 111th birthday bash, tolkien references toys which come from dale some of which are "of real dwarf-make, some obviously magical." is this tolkien's observation of a truth, or tolkien trying to convey that to hobbits, some of these toys were "obviously magical"?
in a quick google search, i came upon a discussion of letter #131 in which tolkien speaks of having unintentionally muddled the topic through his casual use of the word. i think this is the same straying from the laws of his world that we see in the sentient fox --- something i think he added for flavor, but didn't think through the ramifications.
and although elves have expressed being taken aback by their arts being confused with the "deceits of the enemy" by non-immortals, i think they may be forgetting that perhaps some of their own may have practiced "magic" in the same sense? what of eol's enchantment over the woods of nan elmoth, to draw aredhel to him? just how +do+ the elves differentiate between the "deceits of the enemy" and what they do?
cheers -- t
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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** Chucklin' big time **
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