|
|
 |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 30 2015, 11:51am
Post #1 of 35
(2184 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Beorn's references in DOS: Extended Edition?
|
Can't Post
|
|
I didn't put much attention to this until recently, but after watching the Desolation of Smaug Extended Edition I wondered who does Beorn refer to by his lines: 'I remember a time when a great evil ruled these lands. One powerful enough to raise the dead. If this enemy has returned to Middle-earth, I would have you tell me.'
Now, I first thought he meant Sauron (from 'If this enemy has returned to Middle-earth'), but Sauron never ruled the lands around the Carrock and Beorn's house, so that is not a likely possibility.
Then, I wondered: does he refer to Angmar and the Witchking? I know, in the book Angmar was to the west of the Misty Mountains, troubling only Eriador. But, since in the Hobbit movies Gundabad is told to be a fortress and armory of Angmar, does this mean Angmar was larger in movie-lore, extending on both sides of the Misty Mountains? After all, Elrond's line 'For 400 years we have been living in peace, a hard-won, watchful peace.' probably refers to the fall of the Kingdom of Angmar, which likely fell much later than in the book (probably it endured after the fall of Arthedain, and extended its borders east of the Misty Mountains (including Gundabad, where thereafter Thranduil's wife was killed, and probably some parts west of Mirkwood, thus Beorn's lines would make sence), then around the year 2540 (400 years before the time of the Hobbit), after all the Nazgul were in Angmar, it would have been defeated.
What do you think of my opinion on these lines from the movies? Do you have a similar opinion? That Beorn's and Elrond's lines refer to a larger Angmar that fell much later than in the book? Or Beorn was refering to Sauron?
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 30 2015, 11:58am
Post #2 of 35
(2100 views)
Shortcut
|
Angmar was always on both sides of the northern Misty Mountains, north of the Ettenmoors. That was not an invention of the films. However, Beorn could still have meant Sauron, who was the master of the Witch-king.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 30 2015, 12:00pm)
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 30 2015, 12:06pm
Post #3 of 35
(2092 views)
Shortcut
|
I think Beorn referring to the Witchking is more likely than to Sauron, because when did Sauron rule the lands west of Mirkwood, or any part of Mirkwood except for the Southern part where Dol Guldur is located?
Also, which teritorries did Angmar rule on the east side of the Misty Mountains in the book?
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 30 2015, 12:18pm
Post #4 of 35
(2082 views)
Shortcut
|
Angmar controlled the northern Misty Mountains, north of the Ettenmoors, to Carn Dum at the west end of the Mountains of Angmar to the Grey Mountains as far as (and including) the upper Anduin Vales. The borders are illustrated here: https://masteroflore.files.wordpress.com/.../02/war-of-14091.jpg.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 30 2015, 12:34pm
Post #5 of 35
(2069 views)
Shortcut
|
So, after all, Beorn probably refers to Angmar, as I thought  . I wonder through, could the Witchking raise the dead? Or Beorn refers to a time Sauron was in Angmar?
An off-topic question, but can you find any photos/texts that tell of Bilbo planting his acorn in Dale from the Hobbit: the Battle of the Five Armies Visual Companion?
(This post was edited by ThorinsNemesis on May 30 2015, 12:35pm)
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 30 2015, 1:11pm
Post #6 of 35
(2040 views)
Shortcut
|
An off-topic question, but can you find any photos/texts that tell of Bilbo planting his acorn in Dale from the Hobbit: the Battle of the Five Armies Visual Companion?
Photo? No. But on page 87 Fisher writes:
The displaced people of Lake-town have great need of hope, of a promise of a new beginning under all the dirt and blood. And so Bilbo Baggins gives to them the acorn he took from Beorn's home. He was going to plant it in his garden at Bag End: but they need this promise of hope more than one small hobbit.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 30 2015, 1:16pm
Post #7 of 35
(2032 views)
Shortcut
|
And also, do you think the Witchking could raise the dead? Or Beorn refers to a time when Sauron was in Angmar?
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 30 2015, 1:27pm
Post #8 of 35
(2024 views)
Shortcut
|
And also, do you think the Witchking could raise the dead?
In a manner of speaking. The Wights were sent from Angmar to infest ancient barrows and tombs and plague the living. Also, the Nazgul could use Morgul-blades to create lesser Wraiths enslaved to their wills.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 30 2015, 1:40pm
Post #9 of 35
(2016 views)
Shortcut
|
Beorn, under 'a great evil', meant the Witchking, or all the Nazgul, if they were also in Angmar?
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 30 2015, 2:11pm
Post #10 of 35
(1995 views)
Shortcut
|
My guess is that the Ring-wraiths were governing their own, individual territories (mostly in the East and South), but were brought together by either the Witch-king or by Sauron after Angmar came under attack.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 30 2015, 2:28pm
Post #11 of 35
(1986 views)
Shortcut
|
Yes, they probably were gathered in Angmar for the final assault on it.
But is it possible that Sauron was at one time in Angmar/was its ruler (in the movies)? Because Beorn said a great evil ruled those lands just after he says the Necromancer is not what he seems.
Is he referring to the Leader of the Nazgul and ruler of Angmar, the Witchking, as the great evil? Or has Sauron been in Angmar, in the movies? Or Beorn doesn't know that the Necromancer is Sauron, just guessing that he isn't what he seems?
|
|
|
Bombadil
Half-elven
May 30 2015, 3:54pm
Post #12 of 35
(1948 views)
Shortcut
|
Excellent Analysis..SSOoo..could the WitchKing?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
have been the ONE to release the other 8
in the High Fells ?
Or was there some VISIT by Sauron..just to revive him?
Man O' Man!
.. interesting HINTS from PJ that could
be a "FantasyFiction" on it's own.
Didn't the WitchKing have a Palantir @ one time?
does any of the Gaming LOTR games cover this?
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 30 2015, 4:40pm
Post #13 of 35
(1918 views)
Shortcut
|
The Witchking had a palantir in Minas Morgul, but according to the time of the Hobbit movies Minas Morgul is still Minas Ithil; however, Lord of the Rings Online's story tells that the minions of Sauron found the Osgiliath palantir in the Anduin river and took it to Carn Dum for it to serve the Witchking, then, after Angmar's destruction and the (fictional) arrival of Mordirith, to serve the Steward of Angmar. Although possible to have happened in lore, it is never mentioned in Tolkien's works.
Considering Beorn's lines, maybe the Witchking is far more powerful in the movies than in the books (an example of his power is when he breaks Gandalf's staff in LOTR Return of the King), so Beorn may have referred to him; I didn't mean the Witchking could raise the other Nazgul from the dead, he was also dead in the movies, I meant he could raise others from the dead, he was a powerful sorcerer, and he sent the Barrow-wights to the Barrow Downs. So, Beorn could have meant him.
|
|
|
dormouse
Half-elven
May 30 2015, 6:45pm
Post #14 of 35
(1861 views)
Shortcut
|
I think he means Sauron, with 'these lands' being a generalised reference to Middle Earth rather than specifically Angmar.
It's difficult to use texts from the book to prove or disprove this, given that they have changed the backstory for the film. In the book the Nazgul weren't raised from the dead at all they were undead - they never died. But the power that brought them to that state was Sauron's power and it seems to me that even in the film they're saying that the re-emergence/ raising of the Nazgul is evidence that the Necromancer must be Sauron - ergo, he is the one doing the raising. It's his voice they obey.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 30 2015, 6:56pm
Post #15 of 35
(1854 views)
Shortcut
|
Yes, they probably were gathered in Angmar for the final assault on it.
But is it possible that Sauron was at one time in Angmar/was its ruler (in the movies)? Because Beorn said a great evil ruled those lands just after he says the Necromancer is not what he seems.
Is he referring to the Leader of the Nazgul and ruler of Angmar, the Witchking, as the great evil? Or has Sauron been in Angmar, in the movies? Or Beorn doesn't know that the Necromancer is Sauron, just guessing that he isn't what he seems?
I assumed that Beorn's 'greater evil' was Sauron, who ruled over the Nazgul, but he could have meant it either way. Sauron did not have to be physically present in Angmar because the Witch-king ruled it in his name.
I am guessing that Beorn would not know that the Necromancer is Sauron, but he might suspect that he is at least one of the Nine.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 30 2015, 6:59pm
Post #16 of 35
(1854 views)
Shortcut
|
|
The Witch-king was also imprisoned.
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
have been the ONE to release the other 8
in the High Fells ?
Or was there some VISIT by Sauron..just to revive him?
Since the Nine were all entombed at the High Fells I would say that Sauron had to be the one who broke the spells on their prison.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 30 2015, 7:08pm
Post #17 of 35
(1844 views)
Shortcut
|
So, Beorn meant Sauron had been some kind of the 'ultimate' king of Angmar, and that he had been the ultimate ruler of those lands (If so, this might explain his lines in the movies)?
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 30 2015, 7:13pm
Post #18 of 35
(1837 views)
Shortcut
|
It's hard to be certain, but I think so. That would be a good question to address to PJ.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 30 2015, 7:17pm
Post #19 of 35
(1833 views)
Shortcut
|
If PJ would find time to answer it 
|
|
|
MyWeeLadGimli
Lorien
May 30 2015, 11:40pm
Post #20 of 35
(1752 views)
Shortcut
|
|
How Old is Beorn Supposed to Be?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
In one of Tolkien's letters I recall him indicating that Beorn's lifespan was the same as normal Men. Is this something changed for the movie? If Beorn is referring to either Sauron or the Witch-King, he'd have to be hundreds of years old at least.
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 31 2015, 12:16am
Post #21 of 35
(1745 views)
Shortcut
|
That's actually a good question! Is it possible that (even in Tolkien's legendarium) that whatever geas or enchantment Beorn was under extended his lifespan? If so, it seems that this (self-imposed?) geas was broken by his actions in the Battle of Five Armies.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 31 2015, 6:46am
Post #22 of 35
(1683 views)
Shortcut
|
I actually never thought about that, because I thought Beorn just lived very long. Though, it is very possible that an enchantment of some sort has been placed on him 
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 31 2015, 8:19am
Post #23 of 35
(1657 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Geas and the Battle of the Five Armies?
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
Beorn might have just lived longer in the movies. Although a geas/enchantment is quite possible, too. The question is: how he got it, for what reason, and what would he do to break it during the Battle of the Five Armies?
|
|
|
Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 31 2015, 11:08am
Post #24 of 35
(1617 views)
Shortcut
|
|
"...he is under no enchantment but his own."
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
If Beorn is under some sort of geas then it seems, from Gandalf's words, to be self-imposed. I've wondered if Beorn had once, in bear-form, done harm to someone he cared about. He might have vowed to live apart as long as he did not have full control of himself as a bear.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
|
|
|
ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 31 2015, 12:31pm
Post #25 of 35
(1583 views)
Shortcut
|
|
Harmed someone who he cated about...
[In reply to]
|
Can't Post
|
|
That is possible. So, hypotheticaly, he harmed someone while in bear form, and then found a way to enchant himself to live for longer until he controlled himself as a bear?
(This post was edited by ThorinsNemesis on May 31 2015, 12:33pm)
|
|
|
|
|
1
