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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 31 2015, 12:46pm
Post #26 of 35
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The power of his vow (if there was one) might or might not have extended his life. It is very hard to say when we don't even know Beorn's age or the nature of his enchantment. Tolkien deliberately made Beorn a mystery.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 31 2015, 12:56pm
Post #27 of 35
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He is clearly a mystery in the movies. At least we have a hypothesis made 
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Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor
May 31 2015, 4:12pm
Post #28 of 35
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This reference appears again and again...
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After Gandalf rescued the Dwarves from the Trolls he and Thorin have a short conversation:
GANDALF: They must have come down from the Ettenmoors.
THORIN: Since when the mountain trolls venture this far south?
GANDALF: Oh, not for an age. Not since a darker power ruled these lands.
So. what does "an age" mean? So it could mean 1000, 2000 or even 3000 years, but the word "age" is very vague in the history of Middle-earth as it is in our own history. The First Age was about 1000 years long (if you could the "Years of the Sun" too), the Second Age was 3.441 years and the Third Age 3.021 years long. So the Third Age started with the defeat of Sauron at the Battle of the Last Alliance. So if "Not for an age" is referring to the Second Age when Sauron was indead ruling almost the entire world of Middle-earth it would make sense.
Thorin obviously never witnessed mountain trolls venturing this far south since he isn't that old but Gandalf might have witnessed it when he first came to Middle-earth or at least he learned it from his own ventures and from stories of people and most obviously from Elrond and the people of Rivendell who actually fought against them. So in this particular part Gandalf is talking about SAURON.
And what about that Beorn quote?
BEORN: I remember a time when a great evil ruled these lands. ONE powerful enough to raise the dead. If that enemy has returned to Middle-earth, I would have you tell me
GANDALF: Saruman the White says it's not possible. The enemy was destroyed and will never return.
In my opinion Beorn can't be that old to have witnessed Saurons rule but who knows? They're both definitely talking about SAURON as well. Since the answer of Gandalf is refering to the council scene from AUJ where Saruman says it's not possible for Sauron to return since he was destroyed. It's almost a quote of Sarumans words from AUJ. Beorn also says "One powerful enough to raise the dead". "One" is not only a number but in this context another name for Sauron (and the One Ring as well) who is called "The One" later by Narzug. Also it was said before that only Sauron is able to raise the spirits of the dead.
RADAGAST: No, Gandalf, 'tis not. A dark power dwells in there. Such as I have never felt before. It is the shadow of an ancient horror. ONE that can summon the spirits of the dead. I saw him, Gandalf, from out of the darkness. A Necromancer has come!
The funny thing is how much the script repeats itself if it comes to Sauron. The Gandalf, Radagast and Beorn quotes (even the quotes from the White Council and later the High Fells) are basically saying the same thing. Every one seems to know the story and still no one (even Gandalf) is surprised it's Sauron.
A long time ago ("an age" ago, at "a time") Sauron ("One", "the enemy", "an ancient horror", "a great evil", "a darker power") ruled Middle-earth ("ruled these lands") and was able to bring back the dead ("summon the spirits of the dead", "raise the dead").
And what about Angmar? In the movie-verse there's no hint when Angmars rule took place after the defeat of Sauron by Isildur. Although it was hinted by the "400 years of peace" line from Elrond in AUJ that there might have been a war with Angmar sometime after the Battle of the Last Alliance. But it could have been a reference to something else. A war with the Orcs from Mount Gundabad since the Battle of Azanulbizar didn't took place more than 400 years before AUJ. So "peace" only counts for "peace in our part of the world". Just like we Europeans are refering to "peace in Europe" when we talk about "a peaceful time" although there are a lot of wars going on in the world. And some even with European soldiers involved... so it's difficult I guess.
So maybe Elrond is refering to the war with Angmar... would make sense if you look at the previous discussions they had about Angmars fall and grave and the Men of the North. But in the conversations between Gandalf and Beorn/Thorin it must have been references to Sauron and not the Witch-King. Especially if you look at the Middle-earth-movie-keywords I mentioned before.
"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."
(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on May 31 2015, 4:13pm)
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 31 2015, 4:56pm
Post #29 of 35
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I've never heard of a time Sauron ruled these particular parts of Middle-earth (around the Carrock for example). If he has ruled it at a time, can someone explain me when?
(This post was edited by ThorinsNemesis on May 31 2015, 4:56pm)
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Bishop
Gondor
May 31 2015, 5:02pm
Post #30 of 35
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I think it's definitely Sauron
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Jackson built the story around the idea of a mysterious character coming into power that it is revealed to be Sauron in the climax of DOS. The films were made for a general audience, and the plot points of this reveal are carefully planned. For Beorn to mention a totally different nemesis that isn't even named and has no bearing on the story would make very little sense. And for Gandalf to basically ignore the question would make even less sense.
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dormouse
Half-elven
May 31 2015, 5:33pm
Post #31 of 35
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I think you're assuming too much about the meaning of
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..."these lands". It doesn't necessarily mean the area round Beorn's house. It could just as easily be a general reference to Middle Earth. I said this is the previous post which you didn't respond to: I'm certain he's talking here about Sauron.
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
May 31 2015, 5:40pm
Post #32 of 35
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I didn't say it's not a possibility of what Beorn meant, I just wonder why didn't he just say 'a great evil ruled over Middle-earth' instead.
And I still don't know a time when Sauron ruled Middle-earth, except for Mordor.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
Jun 1 2015, 5:27am
Post #33 of 35
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"Not since a darker power ruled these lands."
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Well, if Gandalf was referring to Angmar, the Witch-kingdom came into existance around TA 1300 (at least in the book) and, in Tolkien's legendarium fell in 1975.
In the film-canon Angmar might have not have fallen until much later, sometime between 2500 and 2550, beginning the 400 years of peace that Elrond refers to in Rivendell. If that is the case then Angmar would have been able to extend its borders futher into the Anduin Vales and the former Rhudaur.
What do we consider to be the beginning of the First Age? The Years of the Sun alone seem to have lasted approximately 600 years. If we want to go back as far as the beginning of the Spring of Arda, we might be talking about anything from tens of thousands of years to millions of years to even over three billion years.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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darthgandalf99
Registered User
Jun 2 2015, 3:55pm
Post #34 of 35
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"And I still don't know a time when Sauron ruled Middle-earth, except for Mordor"
Huh? Have you not seen the LOTR films or read the appendices to LOTR?
The prologue in FOTR has shots of Sauron conquering Middle-earth and the whole story is premised on destroying the Ring to stop Sauron covering the lands in "second darkness" (which we see him doing in the prologue). So of course there is a time when Sauron ruled almost all of Middle-earth, except for the Elven Kingdoms, who might have also fallen eventually if not for their marshalling their full strength for war and the aid of Numenor (as per the LOTR appendices, which are slightly different to the filmverse).
(This post was edited by darthgandalf99 on Jun 2 2015, 4:05pm)
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien
Jun 2 2015, 5:40pm
Post #35 of 35
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then Sauron ruled over Middle-earth during the Second Age. That would make Beorn too unnaturaly long-lived, would anyone then believe he was born in the Second Age?
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