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Cirdan and the straight road

Glassary
Rivendell


May 29 2015, 3:08pm

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Cirdan and the straight road Can't Post

Not sure if this is the correct forum to ask this in but here goes.
I've always wondered who crewed the ships that sailed the straight road to Erressea?
Always had the impression that it was a one way journey and one you arrived you could not return.
Know that Cirdan was the shipwright and builder was on the last ship with Elrond did was that his only journey?


geordie
Tol Eressea

May 29 2015, 4:17pm

Post #2 of 21 (1963 views)
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That wasn't the last ship - [In reply to] Can't Post

- Celeborn sailed later. There's nothing to say that Cirdan went with Elrond, AFAIK.
.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 30 2015, 3:12am

Post #3 of 21 (1925 views)
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The White Ships [In reply to] Can't Post

were crewed by TORn members who have reached The Lonely Isle after some 2,000 posts.

I know this for a fact as I recently reached Tol Eressea and I still have blisters on my hands from the everlasting rowing. But it beats the barnacle scraping I had to endure at the Grey Havens. Smile

Yes, geordie is correct. We don’t know when Cirdan sailed, but it was most likely NOT on the Three Keepers Ship. There were still many Ships to build and many Elves to sail…

and he was on the Last Ship sometime in the Fourth Age.



Elthir
Grey Havens

May 30 2015, 2:33pm

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I cirya métima ar Ciryatan [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought giving my subject title in Neo-quenya would seem to lend more weight to my opinions

:cough: Wink

A) I do not think Cirdan himself sailed a given Elf or Elves Over Sea, then returned to the Grey Havens (in order to sail other Elves Over Sea later on).

A1) In any case, in my opinion there is evidence (though I'm not providing it here) that after the removal of Aman the journey West Over Sea was normally a one way trip, with special dispensation being given to the sailing of the Istari in the Third Age.

B) I do think Cirdan sailed on the ship with Gandalf. I have no evidence to support this, but I do feel his mission was complete (despite that more ships would be built), and I think that he greatly longed to pass West.

B1) While Cirdan was perhaps the "premier" craftsman of ships, I do not think that he alone knew how to make ships, or that he alone could construct them for this journey (not that anyone said otherwise). I note here the southern haven from which Elves, at one point in history anyway, set sail, according to Amroth.

Also Legolas' ship does not seem, at least, to have been made with Cirdan's help; if I recall correctly it's not noted if so, although admittedly the referrence if brief.

B2) Even if this southern haven did not exists, I still think Cirdan was a master shipbuilder, not the only one.

B7) It's a hit! You sunk my battleship!

B3) The "Last Ship" need not mean the literal last -- and in my opinion it clearly does not mean this according to Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age -- where I would say it refers to the white ship in which Gandalf and Elrond and other notable folk sailed.

I would provide the passage which makes me think so, if I wasn't lazy. I'll provide a part of it below.

B3.5) The "last ship" might mean something else in a different passage however; in other words, I don't think the meaning in Of The Rings Of Power necessarily colours all other examples.

C) Another "last ship" reference in Appendix A seemingly has a Hobbit author (due to the inclusion of "we" came to the Shire in one part), and basically states that some say Cirdan still dwells in the Grey Havens until the Last Ship sails. When was this written from an internal prespective -- that is, not when did Tolkien write it, but when did some Hobbit write it? Before Frodo and Elrond sailed... after Frodo and Elrond sailed?

I don't know (yet... is it possible to figure out?)


D) Of The Rings Of Power "But as for me, my heart is with the sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I shall await thee." Then the connection is made in the next paragraph: white was that ship (and so on), and Elrond sailed on it, and so on.

And in Appendix B
"But as for me, my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you."

Similar but different! Interestingly, so far I can't find a reference to the "last ship" in Hammond and Scull's amazing Guide to The Lord of the Rings, outside of a reference to the poem published in The Adventures of Tom Bombadil. But in their general Reader's Guide to Tolkien (a different guide) however, in reference to the poem Bilbo's Last Song, they write:
"... also in poster form but with an illustration by Pauline Baynes of Sam, Merry, and Pippin watching the Last Ship sail into the West."

I note they here write Last Ship, not last ship, the former occuring in the Appendix A quote (C above).


E) And perhaps with a sigh of relief for anyone who actually reads this post, finally there is my fairly off topic explanation of what my Neo-elvish is intended to mean...

"The last (ultimate) ship and Cirdan"

If it is wrong then please note I am not Tolkien, nor is this Elvish but Neo-Elvish, which can still be wrong in a different sense I guess. But anyway. Also, Ciryatan might be rendered as Ciryatano too...

... I think.


(This post was edited by Elthir on May 30 2015, 2:45pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

May 30 2015, 3:07pm

Post #5 of 21 (1895 views)
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puns [In reply to] Can't Post


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I note they here write Last Ship, not last ship, the former occuring in the Appendix A quote (C above).



By the way "C above" means... as in reference C... but also "see above"... but also "sea above" as a pun for the thread.

My full post makes little sense if this should go unnoticed.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 30 2015, 6:10pm

Post #6 of 21 (1886 views)
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When the #$% did Cirdan sail West? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, I'm impressed with the Neo-quenya! *cough* Wink


In Reply To
B) I do think Cirdan sailed on the ship with Gandalf. I have no evidence to support this, but I do feel his mission was complete (despite that more ships would be built), and I think that he greatly longed to pass West.

Hmm, some thoughts:
The quote, “… my heart is with the Sea, and I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails. I will await you.” could be taken either way. My first thoughts agree with you that Cirdan would be on this (Gandalf’s) Ship. . . But? . . .

I don’t think Cirdan sailed with the Keepers. If we think about the part you mention from Appendix A III –

Quote
At the Grey Havens dwelt Cirdan the Shipwright, and some say he dwells there still, until the Last Ship sets sail . . .
most of the High Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth dwelt with Cirdan . . .
If any now remain they are few.

The “If any now remain they are few.” makes me think “Fourth Age”.
Also the sailing of the Three Keepers was NOT the Last Ship to sail.

Then a strange sentence in Sil., Of the Voyage of Earendil

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Yet not all the Eldalie were willing to forsake the Hither Lands where they had long suffered and long dwelt; and some lingered many an age in Middle-earth. . . [mentioning - Cirdan, Celeborn, Galadriel, Gil-galad, Elrond]. (my bold)

“Many an age” is a puzzler to me. But it proves nothing about Cirdan’s sailing one way or another.

But; from Letter #181

Quote
But with the downfall of ‘Power’ their little efforts at preserving the past fell to bits. There was nothing more in Middle-earth for them, but weariness. So Elrond and Galadriel depart. Gandalf is a special case. He was not the maker or original holder of the Ring – but it was surrendered to him by Cirdan, to assist him in his Task. Gandalf was returning, his labour and errand finished, to his home, the land of the Valar.

Here would be a great opportunity for Tolkien to speak of Cirdan’s going or staying on Gandalf’s Ship. . . But, no! The quandary remains as he is talking about the Three Rings.

Also Letter #246, footnote

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He [Gandalf] was also in special accord with Cirdan the Ship-master, who had surrendered to him his ring and so placed himself under Gandalf’s command. Since Gandalf himself went on the Ship there would be so to speak no trouble either a embarking or at the landing.

Here lies another superb opportunity to mention whether Cirdan set sail with the Keepers.

Sorry to take a single thought from your post, but this is some tough stuff to try and verify. No! more than tough – as you said you have no evidence; but neither do I (verifiable that is)!
Crazy



Elthir
Grey Havens

May 31 2015, 7:14pm

Post #7 of 21 (1852 views)
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two points to consider as well [In reply to] Can't Post


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The “If any now remain they are few.” makes me think “Fourth Age”.



Could be, but on the other hand "few" is a bit vague, and I note Frodo's reaction to meeting Gildor and Company in the early part of the story. "These are High Elves!" The spoke the name of Elbereth!" said frodo in amazement. "Few of the fairest folk are ever seen in the Shire. Not many now remain in Middle-earth, east of the Great Sea."



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Also the sailing of the Three Keepers was NOT the Last Ship to sail.




Well, I would say it is... and maybe it isn't Smile

It very arguably is according to Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age, but we don't know if this is meant to carry into the Appendix A passage (noting we have both "Last Ship" and "last ship" in the two different passages).

"... and I will dwell by the grey shores, guarding the Havens until the last ship sails. Then I shall await thee.'

White was that ship and long was it a-building, and long it awaited the end of which Cirdan had spoken. But when all these things were done, and the Heir of Isildur had taken up the Lordship of Men, and the dominion of the West had passed to him, then it was made plain that the power of the Three Rings also was ended, and to the Firstborn the world grew old and grey (...) and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had made ready. In the twilight of autumn it sailed out of Mithlond,..."

Elrond sailed September 29th, but even if the seasons didn't match, this ship seems to me to be clearly one and the same. In other words...

..."last ship"... "white was that ship"... "the ship that Cirdan had made ready"... are all the same. So all I'm saying is that here, at least, the term "last ship" (again to me) clearly does not have a literal meaning of "last", but seems rather more poetic, given what it represents about the Rings, the Elves, the world of Men, and so on.

As I say, I can't prove Cirdan sailed with Elrond, but this is my response to a couple points raised.


(This post was edited by Elthir on May 31 2015, 7:21pm)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 31 2015, 10:31pm

Post #8 of 21 (1833 views)
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Right-o Elthir [In reply to] Can't Post

I reckon neither of us can “prove” the point one way or another.

Perhaps I have been sullied many many years ago:

From Tyler’s Complete Tolkien Companion

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It is told that he [Cirdan] remained at the Havens until the end, sailing West himself on the last ship to leave Middle-earth.

Thus Tyler’s opinion (and that is all it is –opinion- I believe) seems to be that Cirdan remained well into the Fourth Age.

And from Foster’s Complete Guide

Quote
It is said that he remained in Middle-earth, serving with his wisdom and his ships, until the sailing of the last white ship sometime in the Fourth Age.

His ‘opinion’ is quite clear.
As I said I may have been sullied by these two quotes many years ago. Once a thought enters it’s hard to dismiss without concrete proof, and I’ve never found any.

Also I just did an internet search and found: Tolkien Gateway, The Thain’s Book, The Encyclopedia of Arda, and Wikia all state that Cirdan left in the Fourth Age. Yes, we can agree with all our textual references that the “Keepers” of these sites are making suppositions. Yet I found no site that said Cirdan left with the Keepers. Hmm.

Ok, back to our friendly conversation.
I should have said, “Also the sailing of the Three Keepers was NOT the last ship (not Last Ship) to sail.” We have Legolas & Gimli some 120 years later, and most certainly Celeborn, etc. There doesn’t seem to be a “maybe” here.

And your quote: White was that ship and long was it a-building, and long it awaited the end of which Cirdan had spoken. But when all these things were done, and the Heir of Isildur had taken up the Lordship of Men, and the dominion of the West had passed to him, then it was made plain that the power of the Three Rings also was ended, and to the Firstborn the world grew old and grey (...) and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had made ready. In the twilight of autumn it sailed out of Mithlond,..."

You leave out In that time the last of the Noldor set sail from the Havens and left Middle-earth for ever.
Cirdan was a Sindar.

“Last Ship” or “last ship”? To me “last ship” is literally the “last” one, whereas “Last Ship” is the more poetic.

In the end we have OUR opinions which neither of us can absolutely prove.
I think he sailed after the Keepers but am always given pause with Cirdan’s comment “then I shall await thee”. (I waver just a tad on this singular point.)

Ah, it’s an interesting dilemma to ponder and we could continue to exchange this quote and that quote, and this opinion and that opinion, or we could but agree that Cirdan DID sail West, by crackee! WinkWink



Glassary
Rivendell


May 31 2015, 10:57pm

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Thank you [In reply to] Can't Post

Lol now even more to ponder. Well except for the fact of a TORn members being the crew.


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 1 2015, 12:04pm

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maybe [In reply to] Can't Post


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I should have said, “Also the sailing of the Three Keepers was NOT the last ship (not Last Ship) to sail.” We have Legolas & Gimli some 120 years later, and most certainly Celeborn, etc. There doesn’t seem to be a “maybe” here.



Right, there's no maybe about that; but my maybe was in response to...


Quote
Also the sailing of the Three Keepers was NOT the Last Ship to sail.




... so what I meant by "maybe" is: poetic versus literal. In my opinion the sailing of the Three Rings is the "last ship" in a poetic sense according to Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age. But does "Last Ship" in Appendix A mean the literal last ship? Maybe. Or it might mean the same thing as in Of The Rings Of Power however.

I'm aware that Elrond's ship (to call it that for brevity) was not the literal last ship in any case, but the subject is whether or not Cirdan himself sailed upon something referred to as the "last ship" according to any given passage, and thus what this term might mean in any given passage.

In other words, if both passages refer to the White Ship that Elrond sailed on, then do we have any references to "last ship" that certainly means, literally, the last one?

Maybe, maybe not, despite that we know that Elrond's ship isn't Smile


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“Last Ship” or “last ship”? To me “last ship” is literally the “last” one, whereas “Last Ship” is the more poetic.



But "last ship" is the version found in Of The Rings Of Power, where, as I say, it is equated with the white ship that Elrond sailed upon, the one that Cirdan had made ready. So it has to be "poetic" here in a sense, or at least not literally "last".




Quote

And your quote: White was that ship and long was it a-building, and long it awaited the end of which Cirdan had spoken. But when all these things were done, and the Heir of Isildur had taken up the Lordship of Men, and the dominion of the West had passed to him, then it was made plain that the power of the Three Rings also was ended, and to the Firstborn the world grew old and grey (...) and Master Elrond took there the ship that Cirdan had made ready. In the twilight of autumn it sailed out of Mithlond,..."

You leave out In that time the last of the Noldor set sail from the Havens and left Middle-earth for ever.

Cirdan was a Sindar.




I left it out for two reasons (linguistic niggle below incidentally)...

A) for brevity, considering that it does not bear on the main purpose of my quote, that Cirdan's "last ship" is immediately equated with all the references in this paragraph, including Elrond's ship that sailed in Autumn, along with other description that arguably gives this ship historic importance -- thus giving it enough significance to be called "last" when it's not truly last in a literal sense.

B) it seems to contradict The Lord of the Rings, as published by Tolkien himself, since Note On The Shire Records explains that some of the "High Elves" remained after Elrond sailed.

While I realize it does not say Sindar in any case, as it doesn't prove whether Cirdan (a Sinda as you point out) himself sailed or not, I thought it could be edited for brevity, as well as for reason B. Again the main intent of this quote was to illustrate that this ship is referred to as "last"...

... and yet is not literally the last one.

The statement that the last of the Noldor departed before Elrond (again, in seeming contradiction to author published text) brings in the further misty matter that Tolkien himself never published Of The Rings Of Power, and the question of whether or not he "intended" this contradiction, or if he "intended" to revise it after publishing Note On The Shire Records.

Questions which may never be answerable!

__________
Sindar is a plural Quenya term, like Eldar. Either "Cirdan was a Sinda" or "Cirdan was Sindarin" or "Cirdan was one of the Sindar".


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jun 1 2015, 12:19pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 1 2015, 12:28pm

Post #11 of 21 (1794 views)
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Quenya plurals [In reply to] Can't Post

Oops, just remembered. Here we are not supposed to (try to) correct such technicalities. I forgot.

Apologies. I remembered only after the edit time limit was up... which I wish was even longer, but anyway.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jun 1 2015, 1:12pm

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At's ok Elthir [In reply to] Can't Post

I did know the diff - just a blank-out... Angelic

But you're right. If we corrected every such faus pas the site would be LOADED with Mad

Hmm, I've got one palantir, 2 palantiri, or 2 palantirs
WinkWink



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 1 2015, 3:33pm

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Cirdan and the Last Ship [In reply to] Can't Post

My reading is quite literal. Cirdan would not leave Middle-earth until the Last Ship sailed into the West, meaning the last white ship of the Elves sailed out of the Grey Havens, probably sometime in the Fourth Age. Perhaps this was the ship that Sam boarded in SR 1541 as both of them could be said to have been Ring-bearers. Maybe Celeborn also took ship at that time and the sons of Elrond, Elladan & Elrohir (if they did not choose to live as mortal men).

Or perhaps the Last Ship did not sail until after the deaths of King Elessar and Lady Arwen.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jun 2 2015, 3:13am

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Agreed Otaku [In reply to] Can't Post

Whether we call it the “Last Ship” or the “last ship” seems academic to me. They seem interchangeable, just as you have used the terms “Last Ship” and “last white ship”.

We do know (from Tale of Years) that Legolas and Gimli sailed soon after the death of Elessar some 120 years into the Fourth Age. But they sailed from the Bay of Belfalas and its said “Legolas built a ‘grey’ ship” – not white.
Yet we could still speculate that this could have been ‘the last ship’.

I wonder (I think) that Legolas and Gimli would most likely wait for the journey of Arwen to Cerin Amroth before leaving; but again this seems to be a very short period of time.

Another thought. Some have said that Cirdan’s task was finished after the WOR and he sailed with the Three Keepers. But Cirdan was master of the Grey Havens for over 6,000 years. What would another couple hundred years mean to him as there was still much work to be done and ships to build. Would he abandon The Havens where his wisdom and knowledge had been of extreme value for so many years just to sail with The Keepers?

I don’t think so.



Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 2 2015, 12:12pm

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some? who is with me? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Another thought. Some have said that Cirdan’s task was finished after the WOR and he sailed with the Three Keepers. But Cirdan was master of the Grey Havens for over 6,000 years. What would another couple hundred years mean to him as there was still much work to be done and ships to build. Would he abandon The Havens where his wisdom and knowledge had been of extreme value for so many years just to sail with The Keepers?



Hmm, but what is his mission?

In the very late text Cirdan (The Peoples of Middle-Earth), the Shipwright says (after it is noted that in the First Age "... he forfeited the fulfilment of his greatest desire: to see the Blessed Realm and find again there Olwë and his own nearest kin") that he will follow the light of Eressea into the West -- but he recieves a message (in the heart and mind) that he must stay, for it not only will be dangerous, ultimately his skill will be instrumental in the building of Earendi's ship, which has obvious historic importance... and...

"As we now perceive, this was a foretelling of the ship which after apprenticeship to Círdan, and ever with his advice and help, Eärendil built, and in which at last he reached the shores of Valinor. From that night onwards Círdan received a foresight touching all matters of importance, beyond the measure of all other Elves upon Middle-earth.” JRRT, Cirdan

So why did Cirdan remain after Earendil's voyage? As his greatest desire still awaited, did he feel it his mission to build ships for all Elves? Maybe. But if so, couldn't he teach that?

For myself, I think he continued to receive messages that touched upon matters of importance, with the final one being the Istari mission, and he knew that he should give up Narya, which means that Cirdan himself had become an important cog in this new wheel, in some measure anyway... and there guard the Havens until Mithrandir's mission was over.

After that, as other Elves were already leaving Middle-earth in their own ships, why do they need Cirdan specifically? With the final passing of Elrond, Galadriel, Mithrandir, and other Ringbearers, why not now fulfill his long desire? As for his wisdom and knowledge leaving instead of hanging about for a while, the same could be said for other important Eldar who also left at this time.

And when would the "final Elf" sail?

The Third Age already represented the fading years of the Eldar, with Sauron gone and Men on the rise, time for Ciryatan to follow the light of Eressea...

... in my opinion Smile


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jun 2 2015, 12:16pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 2 2015, 12:44pm

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My take is that Tolkien intended to have some Elves remain in Middle-earth for a very long time, slowly sailing away as the Sea-longing took them and Men continued to spread. By 1955 the Eldar "who now are gone" (Appendix F)...

... yes, but can we even say the non-Eldar are still not lingering -- perhaps not as late as 1955, but very much later that Sam's ship in any case? In Morgoth's Ring Tolkien speaks of the Lingerers, Elves who have not died but have stayed in Middle-earth so long that they have faded in the body...

... yet they are not Houseless, and not having died they did not pass as spirits to Mandos. I can't recall if they are identified as Eldarin or Avarin, or whatever, but my general impression is that some Elves -- who could still be open to the Sea-longing -- would remain very long in Middle-earth (after Sam's ship), perhaps like the Silvan Elves of Mirkwood for example...

... and so for myself, I do not like to put a date on the literal last ship. Cirdan could be on a literal last ship no matter when it was....

... that has an arguable poetry to it as well, in my opinion.

Perhaps Tolkien wanted the reader to consider both possibilities.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jun 2 2015, 12:48pm)


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 2 2015, 12:50pm

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linguistic niggle... [In reply to] Can't Post


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... recieves...



... about your English, Elthir.

Crazy


Bracegirdle
Valinor


Jun 2 2015, 3:38pm

Post #18 of 21 (1742 views)
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I used the word “some” [In reply to] Can't Post

thinking it might be more polite than picking you out personally. Really, I hope these interesting discussions are not a contest or taken as personal derisions, just some fun speculations.

If Cirdan was in such a blasted hurry and as you have quoted and he had a great desire to see the Blessed Realm (which he did) why didn’t he sail after the WOR, but waited two years (according to your thoughts) for the sailing of The Three Keepers. But of course he told Gandalf that “I will await you.”.

Another “last ship” thought. If I were a ship builder writing my memoirs and was retiring I would say “This one is my ‘last ship’”. It would be somewhat absurd to use “Last Ship” (unless this was the actual name of the ship). Thus as Cirdan says, “… I will dwell by the grey shores until the last ship sails.”

Another thought. There surely were many Elves with the sea-longing and the desire to see Valimar. To quote Legolas: But deep in the hearts of all my kindred lies the Sea-longing, which it is perilous to stir. Alas! for the gulls. No peace shall I have again under beech or under elm.
The Last Debate


Yet Legolas even with this (no peace) he remained another 120 years which would be but the blink of an eye in the time-scale of the Elves.
Would (could) not this longing and desire pertain to Cirdan as well? But he was the Keeper of the Havens, we could almost say he WAS the Grey Havens. And he remained a few short (in his mind) years into the Fourth Age to be sure that all who wished had the means to sail. This was his mission.

Do they need Cirdan “specifically”? Probably not. But in HIS mind possibly yes. After his thousands of years overseeing the Havens he would know every jot and tittle, every coordination needed, etc. Many an (modern) enterprise has failed with the loss of a singular “boss”.

“... about your English, Elthir.” – tis better’n mine!
As for “receives” my ‘word’ program always corrects my ‘ie’ or ‘ei’ reversals. But it also changes many words that I DON’T WANT TO CHANGE – Gets irritating - Grrr.. Mad



Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 2 2015, 4:14pm

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thinking it might be more polite than picking you out personally. Really, I hope these interesting discussions are not a contest or taken as personal derisions, just some fun speculations.



Yes, just fun speculations!

My title (with "some" and so on) was just a bit of fun in itself... as no one here had agreed with me...

... yet Wink


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jun 2 2015, 4:15pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


Jun 2 2015, 6:04pm

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Prof. Tolkien unquestionably suggested that there are Elves (mostly among the Avari I expect) who never left Middle-earth, but who still wander, faded, through beloved woods and forests to this very day. At the same time, there must have been a Last Ship contructed in the Grey Havens, under the direction of Cirdan, that sailed into the West. It might be that there were other ships, such as the one constructed by Legolas, after the Havens were abandoned.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Elthir
Grey Havens

Jun 3 2015, 11:53am

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Prof. Tolkien unquestionably suggested that there are Elves (mostly among the Avari I expect) who never left Middle-earth, but who still wander, faded, through beloved woods and forests to this very day.



I looked it up in Laws And Customs Among The Eldar, Morgoth's Ring. There Tolkien looks at the refusal of the summons, and first notes that concerning the fate of other Elves, especially of the Dark-elves who refused the summons to Aman, the Eldar know little, but that the Re-born report that in Mandos there are many elves, and among them many of the Alamanyar (in the chart on page 170 in Morgoth's Ring, Alamanyar includes the Sindar and Nandor, although the term was later revised to Umanyar with a long u). But also, that in the Halls of waiting there is little mingling or communing of kind...

... then the text goes on to say (as I interpret this section) that among those who refused the invitation of the Valar in the first years of the Elves, refusal of the summons to Mandos, is, the Eldar say, frequent. This appears to refer to the Avari, which makes sense to me -- they refused the invitation, and also refuse the summons if they lose their bodies. But the same paragraph goes on to include some of the Eldar even, who had become corrupted by Morgoth or Sauron!

I take it then that this is some of the Eldar who had died, lost their "House" (body) and had fallen enough to refuse the summons of Mandos.

Then comes the section regarding the Houseless versus the Lingerers, which begins: "But it would seem that in these after-days more and more of the Elves, be they of the Eldalie in origin or be they of other kinds, who linger in Middle-earth now refuse the summons to Mandos, and wander houseless in the world, unwilling to leave it and unable to inhabit it, haunting trees or springs or hidden places that once they knew."

Now we are talking about a time of "after days", and we appear to have a mortal author of this text, who I would guess is Elfwine the Anglo-saxon. And this would seem to say, at first, that all who lingered wandered houseless. But there is a last section here, that ends with "So spoke Elfwine" that speaks of the Lingerers not being truly Houseless (the Lingerers being Elves who had lingered so long they faded in the body, as opposed to having died) and who are not perilous as some of the Houseless can be (in a bad way).

Interpret as you like (although full context is best of course). It was fun to look up in any case.

Smile



Quote
At the same time, there must have been a Last Ship contructed in the Grey Havens, under the direction of Cirdan, that sailed into the West.



Well no argument there if all you mean is that at some point Cirdan helped build a ship that would be his last in Middle-earth -- but it could easily be Elrond's ship, as well as some other.


(This post was edited by Elthir on Jun 3 2015, 12:05pm)

 
 

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