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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
Lake-men and Bilbo planting the acorn in Dale?
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ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 29 2015, 1:19pm

Post #1 of 29 (2129 views)
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Lake-men and Bilbo planting the acorn in Dale? Can't Post

After re-watching BOTFA and reading a bit about possible scenes in the Extended Edition, I came up with two questions:
1. While in the book there were at least two thousand survivors from Laketown, in the movies the survivors were only hundreds, and most, if not all, of them went to Dale to parley with Thorin. And it didn't seem to me that they had any intentions of rebuilding Laketown after the Battle of the Five Armies. Given that they were so few after the battle, did PJ want to imply that they all rebuilt and stayed in Dale, leaving Laketown's ruins? Or did some return to Laketown to rebuild it, even though very few of them (and, if yes, who would be their leader (maybe Percy?))?
2. In quite a lot of sites, I've read that there will most likely be a scene in the Extended Edition of BOTFA in which Bilbo will plant the acorn that he took from Beorn's garden in Dale, saying life would again return to that city and its surroundings. I had some thoughts that he plants it in the Shire and it became the Party Tree, but is this speculation about planting the acorn in Dale true/possible? And do you think it will be a nice addition to the movie?



Loresilme
Valinor


May 29 2015, 1:35pm

Post #2 of 29 (2039 views)
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Planting the acorn! [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
2. In quite a lot of sites, I've read that there will most likely be a scene in the Extended Edition of BOTFA in which Bilbo will plant the acorn that he took from Beorn's garden in Dale, saying life would again return to that city and its surroundings. I had some thoughts that he plants it in the Shire and it became the Party Tree, but is this speculation about planting the acorn in Dale true/possible? And do you think it will be a nice addition to the movie?



I've read about this too, and it's one of the scenes that I'm most looking forward to in the EE, so I really hope it's there. Originally I too had expected he'd plant the acorn back in the Shire, but the idea of him planting it in Dale, because he is acknowledging the possibility that no one might live to get back to the Shire, just give me chills. Knowing how MF is so brilliant at conveying emotions and thoughts wordlessly, I really want to see him in this scene.


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 29 2015, 1:39pm

Post #3 of 29 (2030 views)
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Acorn; and Lake-men [In reply to] Can't Post

Yeah, I really want to see this scene in the Extended Edition too Smile



Milieuterrien
Rohan

May 29 2015, 2:42pm

Post #4 of 29 (1995 views)
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It would be funny [In reply to] Can't Post

If Beorn is there during that 'ceremony' and turn berserk because Bilbo didn't ask his permission.
'You've stolen my acorn ! Filthy burglar ! Roar.' Cool


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 29 2015, 3:22pm

Post #5 of 29 (1967 views)
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Yes, really funny [In reply to] Can't Post

but it probably won't happen Frown
Anyway, I'm patiently waiting for someone to also write an answer to my first question Wink



Milieuterrien
Rohan

May 29 2015, 4:08pm

Post #6 of 29 (1946 views)
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Some discrepancies seem to be there [In reply to] Can't Post

.. but not obligatory the ones you underline.

When Tolkien draw his Laketown (obviously for children) didn't he draw a town far smaller than the one you see on the movies ?
Only with a somewhat populated town can we find enough fighters still alive after Smaug's devastation.

That's why it seems that Jackson's movie shows a little bit more realism than Tolkien's book, which somewhat prompts a fully-grown army where there can't be one.
Every generations of people coexist in a town, not only men able and armed to fight. And PJ did set children and women and elders among the survivors.

As you noticed, in the Book the Laketown survivors split and all the armed men go up to Dale and Erebor. How can it be without leaving the women, the children, the elders AND the burnt ones altogether left on shores without any armed protection ?
Do you find Tolkien's choice realistic ?

I do think that Bard's asking to find 'a shelter' for everybody is somewhat much more realistic than Tolkien's book canon. More so, Jackson doesn't either forget the food problem, because we see Thranduil carrying it into Dale.

If I had to put a guess, it would be that PJ's filming team is much more aware of those kind of logistic problems than usual young readers of Tolkien's fairy tales are. And as much as I could see in the movie, it shows.


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 29 2015, 4:38pm

Post #7 of 29 (1922 views)
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I don't find Tolkien's interpretation realistic [In reply to] Can't Post

So, do you think the survivors from Laketown after the battle (in the movie) stayed to live in Dale, or returned to live in Laketown, or split up and lived in both cities?



Smaug the iron
Gondor

May 29 2015, 4:42pm

Post #8 of 29 (1907 views)
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According to Bilbo [In reply to] Can't Post

in FOTR Lake town was rebuilt


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 29 2015, 5:00pm

Post #9 of 29 (1899 views)
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FOTR and the Hobbit [In reply to] Can't Post

Do you mean when Bilbo says he wishes to visit Laketown again? I don't think he went past Laketown on his way back to the Shire (did he?), so he may have thought Laketown had been rebuilt if it had not been rebuilt; and also, FOTR was made before the Hobbit movies, and I find it difficult to believe that a few hundred people that survived a huge battle at Erebor after taking refuge in Dale would split up so some of them would return to rebuild a city that is in a worse condition than Dale.
But, aside the mentioning of the rebuilt Laketown in FOTR (which may not be true because of the Hobbit movies), do you think they lived in Dale, or some returned to Laketown thereafter?



Smaug the iron
Gondor

May 29 2015, 5:13pm

Post #10 of 29 (1894 views)
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He maybe mean [In reply to] Can't Post

visit the lake town people. And I think they will rebuild Lake town.


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 29 2015, 5:25pm

Post #11 of 29 (1881 views)
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Not sure in the movies, but possible [In reply to] Can't Post

Although if they rebuilt Laketown the population would have been severely lowered, as well as that of Dale, it is possible Laketown was also rebuilt.
I am still not sure if the two cities got rebuilt though. Does anyone think only Dale was rebuilt in the movies? In any way, everyone should tell what they think on this matter Smile



Bombadil
Half-elven


May 29 2015, 5:27pm

Post #12 of 29 (1885 views)
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Bomby's Guess? Since Bard is the ONLY Heir of Girion.. [In reply to] Can't Post

He & his Family will stay in Dale.

1. There is Plenty of Housing..IT just needs to be Repaired.

2. Much of the metal from the Orc's armour, would be Quite enough
for the Dwarves to Melt down for them to help re-Build forges there.

3. According to the BOOK, Laketown was moved since
they didn't want to BE ANYWHERE near Smaug's body underwater.

4. Much of the smashed timber would have floated toward shore
or with Boats they could retrieve it & build a Dock nearer to Dale
for the Fishmen to still be able to Fish & haul THAT to the City.

5. They might need to wait for Winter to be over,
but many interiors would still be somewhat intact.

6. The Dwaves need the people nearby
since they don't work the Land.

7. THERE might STILL be food preserved
somewhere in the Community Kitchens.
of Erebor...Like Salted Pork, Beer in Barrels, etc.

8. The elves might help as well....since they rely on Men
for much of their Food, TOO! {Not just wine}

9. The land around there has been Fallow for 60 years
& could be plowed during the Winter & planted in the Spring.

It's REALLY nice to think? about how quickly
they could re-cover the
Desolation..
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Milieuterrien
Rohan

May 29 2015, 5:29pm

Post #13 of 29 (1878 views)
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I really don't know [In reply to] Can't Post

In the book they build another Laketown next to the burnt city because they don't want to approach the cursed carcass of Smaug, which covers maybe half of it.
In the movie we clearly see that Smaug isn't that big, even if his size compares to a Boeing : his body (not his wings) fell in only one canal of the town. So he can be removed out of there.

Then what's left of the town ? Didn't men do the best they could to extinguish the fire using the water under the city as soon as they saw Smaug dead ?
Was the fire so strong that they had to flee and do nothing more ? The movie doesn't really show : the attack happened during the night, but the survivors seem to land.. in plain daylight.
So, did they spend the night and the morning fighting the fire, or is it a movie mistake ? Even if I could understand that the fight against the fire would have been a digression out of the 'thrill' of the story, I do hope the EE will tell.

About Dale, the town seems to have kept much of its walls, and it's an important thing. Smaug may have destroyed the town, he surely didn't wipe the stones out of the place, so they can try to get the masonry they need to the rebuilts they need.
More so, Dale people can now use their share of Erebor's gold to get some help and material from other men of Gondor or Ithilien. The need to rebuild Laketown as big as it was isn't there no more, for they recovered Dale, but the whole region has now everything to become attractive again and the two towns can be fast rebuilt and re-occupied.

I admit that I somewhat miss the news brought to Bilbo by Balin about the re-building of the town.

Furthermore, there still are many things kept open about the aftermaths of the battle : among Dwarves, what will be the relationships between King Dain and Balin ? Will Balin split and go to Moria on the asking of Dain or in order to get free from his rule ?
What about Legolas and Aragorn ? What about Thranduil recovering the West of Mirkwood and Galadriel re-shaping Dol Guldur ? What about the adventures of Aragorn and Gollum, in Thranduil Estates or elsewhere ? What about the surviving Dwarves ? What about Tauriel's fate ?

As I stated, there could be enough material for a 'bridge movie'. Not being made by Peter Jackson, but maybe by Andy Serkis ?


Smaug the iron
Gondor

May 29 2015, 5:34pm

Post #14 of 29 (1867 views)
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Dale was rebuilt first [In reply to] Can't Post

And after a few years when the population have grown they rebuild Lake town.


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 29 2015, 5:47pm

Post #15 of 29 (1856 views)
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Laketown and Dale [In reply to] Can't Post

The three theories mentioned above seem possible. Laketown could have been rebuilt some time after with Dale, with the help of other people and part of the treasure of Erebor, but still, according to the movies, both cities' population would have been very low, and so it would have taken the Lakemen more time to rebuild them. As for Bard, I know that he stays in Dale after the battle, as in the book.
I'm still open to other theories though Wink



(This post was edited by ThorinsNemesis on May 29 2015, 5:48pm)


arithmancer
Grey Havens


May 29 2015, 5:58pm

Post #16 of 29 (1845 views)
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Both were rebuilt, IMO. [In reply to] Can't Post

Dale became the new capital city of a kingdom ruled by Bard; Laketown became an important town within his realm.

The concern about too little population ignores the possibility of immigration. The news that Smaug is dead, the Kingdom of Erebor restored, and Dale is being rebuilt, would in my opinion spread, and cause people looking for opportunities to consider moving there. Dale and Esgaroth were by all accounts famous for their wealth in their day, and that would be attractive once the dragon was out of the picture.

Laketown retains a purpose separate from Dale, which is why I think it too will be rebuilt. As others have pointed out, Dale and Erebor will be ready markets for its fish, and its location is a good one for trade (via river) both with Thranduil's kingdom, and the lands to the East.



Bombadil
Half-elven


May 29 2015, 6:13pm

Post #17 of 29 (1832 views)
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IMMIGRATION! YES.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Seems that when Smaug destroyed the City of Dale
many people fled further than Laketown down the Running River.
If you look @ a Map of Wilderland, that river does cross into the
EDGE of Mirkwood & eventually down to the Sea of Rhun.

Along the way, it would seem some of the Survivors would
have settled all along this river,farming, fishing, hunting etc.

News would have spread just like Balin said,
SSOo..yes! people would Flock back to Help,
especially since with so much Gold!

That!.. would bring back the Economy really fast.
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 29 2015, 6:17pm

Post #18 of 29 (1823 views)
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They were both rebuilt in time, that's for sure [In reply to] Can't Post

 



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 29 2015, 6:57pm

Post #19 of 29 (1806 views)
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It is very possible. [In reply to] Can't Post

The suggestion that Bilbo plants the acorn in Dale is found in the TH:BotFA Visual Companion, so it was almost certainly either a scene that was filmed or was in the shooting script for the film. I wouldn't mind seeing it.

As for your first question: 1) What makes you think that, in the book, there were two thousand or more survivors from Esgaroth? Tolkien's Lake-town was small; I'm not sure that there would have been more than two thousand residents before Smaug attacked. 2) Bilbo probably heard news out of Rhovanion from time to time in the years after his adventure. We know that in the book Gandalf and Balin visited him in TA 2947 and updated him on events. Other friends from Thorin's company probably would have found themselves traveling through the Shire on business between Erebor and the Blue Mountains; they would have stopped by as well. So, the suggestion in FotR that Esgaroth was rebuilt, as in the book, is probably correct. And, in any case, could not 'hundreds' of survivors add up to around two thousand? Peter Jackson's Lake-town looks to be at least four or five times as large as the settlement described and illustrated by Tolkien.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 29 2015, 7:13pm

Post #20 of 29 (1792 views)
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Dale and Laketown rebuilt [In reply to] Can't Post

I find the idea that Laketown was rebuilt a few years after Dale and after the growing of the Lakemen population to be the most possible according to the movie. Glad to see people are still replying to the topic. Smile



(This post was edited by ThorinsNemesis on May 29 2015, 7:14pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 29 2015, 7:21pm

Post #21 of 29 (1782 views)
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Thanks. [In reply to] Can't Post

Although I would still like to know where your numbers came from (2000+) for the survivors of Tolkien's Lake-town.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 29 2015, 7:25pm

Post #22 of 29 (1774 views)
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I read it somewhere... [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't know exactly their number in the book, but I am certain that the survivors in the book were more than those in the movies.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 29 2015, 7:50pm

Post #23 of 29 (1749 views)
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No; Tolkien never indicated that. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I don't know exactly their number in the book, but I am certain that the survivors in the book were more than those in the movies.


Based on Professor Tolkien's illustrations of Lake-town, the whole place probably didn't measure much more than 350 feet x 400 feet in area. Here is Karen Wynn Fonstad's map from The Atlas of Middle-earth: http://www.abo.fi/...-_maps/lake_town.gif.

As you can see, it was not big at all. The crew at Weta first tried to make it to scale and found that their Smaug was so large that he could have destroyed the place in a single pass, so they ended up making it several times larger. I think you might be remembering the numbers suggested for the number of Elves that the Elvenking had with him.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 29 2015, 7:51pm)


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 29 2015, 8:00pm

Post #24 of 29 (1749 views)
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"..To Re-build Esgaroth 10 Times over!" [In reply to] Can't Post

This statement by Thorin is what they wanted to hear.

1. Laketown was a shanty town Refuge from Smaug
because of the Water surrounding it...
SSOoo..it seems the people of Laketown were
interested into re-building Esgaroth, MORE than Laketown.

2. IN some shots of Tauriel in the escape boat, you do see
some of the Stone Ruins of Esgaroth holding up a House...

3. When the dwarves pass though the Ruins to get out further on
the Lake? IT reminded bomby of Osgiliath..

4. The Re-Building of Esgaroth could use much of the Broken Stone
from the entrance of Erebor, & floated down the stream that is in front of that.

5. Dwarves are like GREAT engineers who know how to Build STUFF &
it wouldn't be much work for them to re-Design Esgaroth, better
than before.

Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


CathrineB
Rohan


May 29 2015, 10:49pm

Post #25 of 29 (1689 views)
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But... [In reply to] Can't Post

Why in Dale? Other than being there when fighting it doesn't seem like a place Bilbo has a special... *thing* with?

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