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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
We're forgetting an audience...
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Milieuterrien
Rohan

May 28 2015, 8:04am

Post #51 of 95 (1304 views)
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In French, spiders are female, that's it. [In reply to] Can't Post

We call all of them : "Une araignée" and never : "Un araigné"
If you are searching male beings, look for scorpions : we call them : "Un scorpion" and never "Une scorpionne"
But as you may have noticed, Bilbo fought spiders and not scorpions.

Only foolish scientists do look at the sex of those arthropods, for such items are obviously not only too tiny, but also much too suggestive to be scrutinized by decent people and I certainly won't do it. You're taking a inconvenant path, miss.

And more so, I'm very surprised you take that one, because as we all know, for english speakers all animals are neutral. Only ships are female. Cool


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 28 2015, 1:49pm

Post #52 of 95 (1271 views)
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Bwahahahahaha [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
We call all of them : "Une araignée" and never : "Un araigné"
If you are searching male beings, look for scorpions : we call them : "Un scorpion" and never "Une scorpionne"
But as you may have noticed, Bilbo fought spiders and not scorpions.

Only foolish scientists do look at the sex of those arthropods, for such items are obviously not only too tiny, but also much too suggestive to be scrutinized by decent people and I certainly won't do it. You're taking a inconvenant path, miss.

And more so, I'm very surprised you take that one, because as we all know, for english speakers all animals are neutral. Only ships are female. Cool


Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 28 2015, 2:24pm

Post #53 of 95 (1267 views)
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Let's not be overly literal! [In reply to] Can't Post

Just because a language uses a gender-specific noun to refer to spiders does not literally make them all female. I will note than it an early draft of The Hobbit Tolkien referred to the spider as female that first attempted to capture Bilbo in Mirkwood.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 28 2015, 2:59pm

Post #54 of 95 (1256 views)
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What? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
And more so, I'm very surprised you take that one, because as we all know, for english speakers all animals are neutral. Only ships are female. Cool


Not true. For example, a female badger is a sow, a male pig is a boar, female cattle are called cows, males are bulls, a cockerel is male and a hen is female, and so on…


Milieuterrien
Rohan

May 28 2015, 3:49pm

Post #55 of 95 (1238 views)
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Don't get fooled, it was just an attempt ... [In reply to] Can't Post

... of french humor Evil


RosieLass
Valinor


May 28 2015, 4:01pm

Post #56 of 95 (1237 views)
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They say that English is the most difficult language to learn. [In reply to] Can't Post

But I beg to differ.

The two things that I have always struggled with the most in learning other languages is accent marks and noun genders. Crazy

"Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it."
--Joyce Meyer

A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP
--Leonard Nimoy


Milieuterrien
Rohan

May 28 2015, 4:20pm

Post #57 of 95 (1232 views)
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As far as I'm concerned, [In reply to] Can't Post

I sometimes regret french language doesn't use the neutral gender.

And I suggest not to lose too much time trying to get a global logic in french noun genders, because most of the time there is not so much.

For instances, we say :

'une girafe' (giraffe) but 'un okapi'
'une autruche' (ostrich) but 'un émeu' (emu)
'une colombe' (dove) but 'un pigeon' (pigeon), only because the former is white and the latter is not,

No consideration for the sex there. So, often it could be as well a matter of piece flipping,

Sometimes though, it depends on the usual attraction of the spelling,
For instance, each time a word ends by -e, we're inclined to suppose that it's gender is feminine.

...Even if the word is : "Un mâle" (a male).

And each time a word ends by a consonant, we're inclined to a masculine gender.

...Even if the word is "Le Féminin" (i.e. the feminine gender)

But one rule is sure :
WHATEVER THE GENDER IS, french people NEVER mistake about it.
... But english people, always Cool

That's why they never succeeded and will never succeed in invading us.


(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on May 28 2015, 4:24pm)


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 28 2015, 4:23pm

Post #58 of 95 (1223 views)
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The Slavonic languages are tricky [In reply to] Can't Post

…especially, it seems, for native English speakers. (They include Polish, Slavonic and Russian.) Completely different pronunciation of letters and words, and also general grammar.

The Latin languages seem to be the easiest to learn (though this may depend on what your native language is).

If English was so difficult to learn, why do so many people speak it?Crazy


Milieuterrien
Rohan

May 28 2015, 4:37pm

Post #59 of 95 (1214 views)
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Maybe because it's simple on crucial points [In reply to] Can't Post

- no declentions
- no conjugations
- no gender
- no accent signs

just sequences of words.

Difficult to speak with the proper pronounciation,
But easy to read.


Avandel
Half-elven


May 28 2015, 4:40pm

Post #60 of 95 (1216 views)
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Money [In reply to] Can't Post

So I've been told - English is the language of commerce; French the "international language" or "language of science".

But I do know at least the native Spanish speakers I have talked to - we teach each other words - have a bad time in English - at least some - with concepts in English like single "fish" can be plural "fish" and you can also "go fish".

And in English - "I go, but you went" - as words for future, past, and present may be so different.

And the Russian speakers I know have had a time writing using "a", "the", and "an" as evidently Russian doesn't use that construct.


RosieLass
Valinor


May 28 2015, 5:07pm

Post #61 of 95 (1211 views)
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I think what makes English difficult [In reply to] Can't Post

is the lack of grammatical consistency.

We do have rules, but they apply only about 60% of the time.

The other languages I've studied (French and German, primarily) seem to be much more uniform.

"Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it."
--Joyce Meyer

A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP
--Leonard Nimoy


RosieLass
Valinor


May 28 2015, 5:10pm

Post #62 of 95 (1205 views)
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Haha! [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course, it's easy for me to claim that English is less difficult than other languages. The language we grew up with is always the easiest.

And for me, the neutral gender just adds one more layer of confusion. Pirate

"Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it."
--Joyce Meyer

A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP
--Leonard Nimoy


arithmancer
Grey Havens


May 28 2015, 5:16pm

Post #63 of 95 (1197 views)
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Spelling, also. [In reply to] Can't Post

I remember as an exchange student in Germany, having to explain to (non-English speaking) host family parents what a "spelling bee" is and why anyone would ever fail to spell a word correctly. Bough and bow (and beau and bow) and all that, is hard even for us native speakers.



Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 28 2015, 6:45pm

Post #64 of 95 (1168 views)
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Haha indeed [In reply to] Can't Post

It's hilarious to me how some of these threads spin off into a totally different topic.Tongue

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Milieuterrien
Rohan

May 28 2015, 7:55pm

Post #65 of 95 (1144 views)
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Back to the spot, [In reply to] Can't Post

and after having proved that The Hobbit didn't manage badly about female characters (spiders included/excluded),
we might consider that female characters are not obligatory what female audiences seek after.

I do think that some bits of Richard Armitage, Lee Pace, Aidan Turner, Luke Evans or Dean O'Gorman are sugar-proof in this topic.

Maybe some will discuss and find them ... neutral ? Cool


(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on May 28 2015, 7:56pm)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 28 2015, 8:17pm

Post #66 of 95 (1139 views)
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Oh, now you're REALLY asking for it! [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
and after having proved that The Hobbit didn't manage badly about female characters (spiders included/excluded),
we might consider that female characters are not obligatory what female audiences seek after.

I do think that some bits of Richard Armitage, Lee Pace, Aidan Turner, Luke Evans or Dean O'Gorman are sugar-proof in this topic.

Maybe some will discuss and find them ... neutral ? Cool


Considering the fact that I fully intend to watch RA play a psycho killer this summer, complete with a backside-baring scene, I would probably NOT find him "neutral", LOL! Of course you are right, a strong female character isn't required with hotties like those in the show!WinkHeartHeart

Avandel can take over on THAT topic, probably do much better than me anyway - especially the "sugar-proof part.Cool

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 28 2015, 9:46pm

Post #67 of 95 (1127 views)
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Because English formed as a combination of other languages. [In reply to] Can't Post

Primarily Germanic and Latin/Romance languages (Anglo-Saxon and Norman French), with a smattering of others along the way. We borrowed some rules from one and some from the other and then some words and phrases still follow the rules of their root language regardless of the general rule. So we have multiple sets of words for the same things, and multiple sets of rules to go with them. It's sort of like learning more than one language at once, I guess.

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Glorfindela
Valinor


May 28 2015, 10:34pm

Post #68 of 95 (1112 views)
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This is so true… [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I think what makes English difficult is the lack of grammatical consistency.

We do have rules, but they apply only about 60% of the time.

The other languages I've studied (French and German, primarily) seem to be much more uniform.


There's also the matter of apparently baffling pronunciation of English place names such as Leicester, Gloucestershire, Beauchamp Place (pronounced 'Beecham Place') and so on. I know this aspect of the English language blows the brains of people who are trying to learn English…


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 28 2015, 10:37pm

Post #69 of 95 (1107 views)
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Indeed… [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

In Reply To
Avandel can take over on THAT topic, probably do much better than me anyway - especially the "sugar-proof part.Cool


Avandel is THE maestro when it comes to such things, especially when it comes to the brilliant Thorin, who did SO much for this film, at least as far as I'm concerned. SmileWinkHeart


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on May 28 2015, 10:48pm)


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 28 2015, 10:41pm

Post #70 of 95 (1105 views)
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Indeed, no. 2 [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Bough and bow (and beau and bow) and all that, is hard even for us native speakers.


Not to mention 'affect' and 'effect', plus things like variations in spellings in British English and American English (the greys and the grays, the practising and the practicing). Angelic


(This post was edited by Glorfindela on May 28 2015, 10:49pm)


Ataahua
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 28 2015, 10:56pm

Post #71 of 95 (1100 views)
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Then there's this: [In reply to] Can't Post

Part of a quote from James Nicoll, freelance game and speculative fiction reviewer: "We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and riffle their pockets for new vocabulary."

Celebrimbor: "Pretty rings..."
Dwarves: "Pretty rings..."
Men: "Pretty rings..."
Sauron: "Mine's better."

"Ah, how ironic, the addictive qualities of Sauron’s master weapon led to its own destruction. Which just goes to show, kids - if you want two small and noble souls to succeed on a mission of dire importance... send an evil-minded beggar with them too." - Gandalf's Diaries, final par, by Ufthak.


Ataahua's stories


Silverlode
Forum Admin / Moderator


May 29 2015, 12:52am

Post #72 of 95 (1077 views)
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Yes... [In reply to] Can't Post

and then we compound the offense by deliberately refusing to pronounce it correctly. TongueEvil

Silverlode

Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.




Bombadil
Half-elven


May 29 2015, 12:55am

Post #73 of 95 (1072 views)
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Bomby spends SOME Time on a Search Engine? [In reply to] Can't Post

Called "STUMBLEUpon"
It's customizable
w/ your Interests & FREE

In the AREA of FUTURISM there is Quote
that in about 20 years there will be only
3 Languages Spoken,

English, Spanish & Mandarin Chinese..

Their Reasoning is that the Internet? is English First.
Spanish is HUGE everywhere anyway
as well as Chinese

SSOoo.these 3 already incorporate the many Others
Like, French, Indian, the various Slavic Languages
including Russian
& Portuguese..

WHICH isn't a Bad thing @ ALL!

The Internet & Social Media..
has CHANGED everything for the Better.

Facebook the Largest Search Engine the World since
March, 2014?..& has about 80% of it's user's
Outside the USA.

SSOoo, THIS "Singularity"
is jus' a Process as we ALL
Become ONE WORLD.

The current Artificial Borders can't be seen from SPACE!

Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


DanielLB
Immortal


May 29 2015, 6:51am

Post #74 of 95 (1049 views)
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One of my favourites is ... [In reply to] Can't Post

Wymondham. So many silent letters! Though I'm led to believe that the pronunciation has changed over time.

(pronounced Windem)


Glorfindela
Valinor


May 29 2015, 8:52am

Post #75 of 95 (1022 views)
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That's a good one [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Wymondham. So many silent letters! Though I'm led to believe that the pronunciation has changed over time.

(pronounced Windem)


Now try 'chrzczasz brzmi w trzcinie' (that's without the diacritical marks). Tongue

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