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sador
Half-elven
May 28 2015, 2:51pm
Post #26 of 88
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Though I am aware that my preference for the manipulative reading is based on an ideology I personally adhere to, as I have candidly written.
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 28 2015, 5:14pm
Post #27 of 88
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Yeah, I read your past remarks you linked to. I liked your comment about Galadriel having an epiphany--if anyone in LOTR does, it's her.
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
May 28 2015, 7:31pm
Post #28 of 88
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"She's far too subtle for that! "
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I'm reading (and loving) Gottfried von Strassburg's Tristan. Queen Isolde's "subtlety," and her "subtle arts" are mentioned a few times. In Tristan and other Medieval works, "subtlety" seems as an allusion to a kind of "magic" practised by ladies.
... all this is to say, great choice of word Sador.
(This post was edited by SirDennisC on May 28 2015, 7:31pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 28 2015, 9:06pm
Post #29 of 88
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That's how Tolkien got into trouble with his fans
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He writes background essays on EVERYTHING, including the divine rules of telepathy in Arda!!! And then he got agitated when fans wanted to know how the DNA of Elves and Men were genetically compatible? Well, when he gives you background on everything else, you start to feel entitled to ask for more and more.
Anyway, thanks for the link--both the web page and Tolkien's essay were fascinating reading. The latter in particular gives interesting insights into the Valar and Melkor.
There is mention that Men have telepathy too, but as usual, they're much weaker than Elves and don't know they have it. But what are we to make of Aragorn vs the Mouth of Sauron, when the former held the latter in his gaze until the latter felt threatened? Was that telepathy? How about the struggles that Pippin witnessed twice between Gandalf and Denethor when their minds seemed to be fencing like swords? Or again, was that something else?
Anyway, Melkor managed to taint mind-reading along with everything else. There is the provision that a person can block it if they wish, but I remain fuzzy on that, because he produced all those thralls in Angband who continued to do his will and would wander back to him eventually if freed. But maybe that was through conventional methods of psychological abuse/conditioning and had nothing to do with directly tapping into their minds.
The rules allow for entering someone's mind based on authority and urgency, both of which Galadriel would have felt entitled to invoke. What remains murky is that the recipient of a mental probe has the power to resist, but may not know they have that power, and it seems reasonable to assume that Boromir and the hobbits didn't know. Given how suspicious Boromir was even before entering Lorien, it's hard to think he would have allowed Galadriel's initial entry into his mind if he could have blocked it from the start.
And I'm also left wondering why she probed Aragorn at all, someone she knew and had even helped court Arwen's favor.
So what next, Wiz--have you found Tolkien's rules on nuclear reactors and where they could be located in relation to high population civilian zones, and where spent rods should be disposed of? I mean, there has to be a Middle-earth essay on that too. :)
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
May 28 2015, 10:29pm
Post #30 of 88
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That Tolkien likes to have his lembas and eat it on the subject of magic. After all, on the one hand, we the reader have to accept on faith that some magical things such as Elven use, Gandalf's skills, on trust, yet at the same time we told that there are rules in ME in a similar way to our world.
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 29 2015, 1:06am
Post #31 of 88
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Then Galadriel shows up, and the real drama begins, on a small scale with Sam, and on a grander scale with Frodo, who seems to be sucked into a horrible Eye in her Mirror, then the Elf-Lady herself reveals how terrible she would become if she wore the One Ring, which she admits she has long wanted (unlike Elrond and Gandalf, and similar to Saruman). The drama does ramp up - to the point I think of the whole trip just about, which may be Galadriel's choice. I do like the parallels between Saruman and Galadriel. The semi-religious, but maybe more moral notes here I think are about the inevitable desire for greater power in those who have innate power themselves, such as great intellect. The crucial difference is about the ability to recognize and reject the path that leads to the spiritual destruction. I think it relates to us all - that recognition of temptation, and I think JRRT does it justice here, because even one as high and noble as Galadriel - with her later, though maybe always subconscious ties to Mary in JRRT's mind - feels the lure and then the sting of temptation. So the real moral is that avoiding such things are not possible below the level of the divine itself and I wonder if even pretending such may be a sort of usurpation of God's prerogative in JRRT's view, but the responsibility of mortals is to acknowledge and make an active choice about our relative temptations. I think that may even tie in with the idea that Frodo's failure is inevitable: the temptation of the Ring was just far too much, even recognized as it was. The eucatastrophe which was the direct result of an essentially moral act on the part of Frodo is the salvation that Frodo could simply not achieve on his own. But then, the Ring is a special case: which is why as a backdrop for highlighting Galadriel's decision it is appropriate. Caras Galadhon: do you think the movie captured the majesty and fantasy of this city as you picture it in the book?
I rather do. I love the staircase going up against the trunk of the great tree. And the high platforms freak me out, so that is correct!  Thank goodness we never got Zimmerman's minarets at least.  Upon the further side there rose to a great height a green wall encircling a green hill thronged with mallorn-trees taller than any they had yet seen in all the land.
The wall I always think of as solid green growth, of other trees and vines, not as a structure. That's how a treeline looks say, from across a river. The contrast in green would be versus the golden mallorns.
Hidden people: Are the gates what Sam would call magic, or are the guards just unseen? And why don't we see any pedestrians in the big city, only hear them singing above? Is this supposed to be heaven with angels? Or a traditional fairyland where fairies are heard but not seen?
Haldir knocked and spoke, and the gates opened soundlessly; but of guards Frodo could see no sign. The travellers passed within, and the gates shut behind them. They were in a deep lane between the ends of the wall, and passing quickly through it they entered the City of the Trees. No folk could they see, nor hear any feet upon the paths; but there were many voices, about them, and in the air above.
Nice point. I suppose in an Elven city, in the fall of their days, the population would be thin? Though I like your line here: Or a traditional fairyland where fairies are heard but not seen? That may well be the case, with the rather sad and forlorn underlying idea that there are simply not many Elf children running about, in this home which though lived in by immortals is not their forever home.
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 29 2015, 1:33am
Post #32 of 88
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Things start out so well: Celeborn greets them each by name and very politely. Then when he hears about 1) the Balrog being awakened and 2) Gandalf dying, he turns cold on them, negating his previous courtesy and regretting his welcome.
Does this make you sympathize with Gimli and Boromir, who don't trust these Elves? It reminds me a bit of the warning we get about Thranduil, being 'more dangerous': implying that even in higher Elves there is *some* danger to be had. That sudden change in affect being one such.
Could a married couple be any more different? Why do you think Tolkien made them so similar when royal couples in fairy tales are often so similar? Galadriel seems three steps ahead of her hubby at every turn, and they've been married for thousands of years. Hasn't any of her Valinorean wisdom rubbed off on him yet? And she was eager to see Gandalf again because she "much desired to speak with him again." Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall of that conversation?! At least his name is better than the original one. I think here Celeborn suffers a bit from Unformed Character Syndrome. With so much focus on Galadriel - as a ethical knife's edge here, a representation of higher humanity and moral choice - Celeborn is sort of the baby chucked into the bathwater, just to be there. The spousal role is determined because of Galadriel's place in the lineage of Elves to Men, and making her a widow may have left too much to explain...so Hubby has to sort of lump it. We see JRRT struggling with their history, never to fully resolve it. The actual person of Celeborn never seems to 100% gel for me, whereas Galadriel certainly does.
Galadriel skillfully rebukes Celeborn while winning over the heart of the Dwarf. Do you think she was being sarcastic when she first calls her husband "Celeborn the Wise" after he's criticized Gandalf? A subtle rebuke? Maybe. But maybe its just courtly language? Wouldn't everyone at the royal court cringe? Is she trying to make up for that remark when she goes on to say that he is "accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings." Does that mean he's smarter than her, Elrond, and Cirdan? (*cough, cough*) Okay, maybe he's wiser than Haldir, but really? And take note of who gives out the best gifts in the next chapter. (Hint: not him.) By the end of the chapter, do you think it's a marriage of equals, or are they like bees, where the queen is in charge and the male is around just as a mating drone? True, they don't cringe, so I think it is queenly language in use if the equation holds. But then her compliments may be queenly as well: and/or a sign JRRT intended to fill in Celeborn's history with more outstanding achievements other than marrying the queen bee? Galadriel comments: "for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat." What does "the long defeat" mean to you? Are these more characters persisting against evil without hope, and does that influence Frodo? I think for Galadriel the coming of Men and thus the loss of her kingdom, her space, the space she crossed the icy wastes for (behind or with Feanor) is a defeat no matter who rules Middle-earth. Thus speaks the Queen within, the natural ruler. That desire for a land to rule, to be a Queen: her true personal Ring? The Blessed Realm may be heaven to other elves, but there Galadriel diminishes, as she acknowledges to Frodo. Interestingly enough, Queenship for a while is Eowyn's 'ring' as well. Similarly: they both end up waking away from Queendom, though we get a happy ending for Eowyn, maybe dissimilarly a bittersweet one for Galadriel? It's fun to watch words come out of her mouth, because no one else seems to talk in her vaulted style: "I it was who first summoned the White Council." (Not: "It was I.") Clearly summoning White Councils isn't something Celeborn gets to do, nor does he get to lead them. Why do you think it was Galadriel who summoned it and not Elrond or Cirdan or one of the Wizards? And if she summoned it, why couldn't she lead it if Gandalf said no? Thus speaketh the Lady Galadriel. And don't you forget it. My guess is her leadership style is more Churchill than Louis XIV. She would rather pull strings from a distance maybe, and build alliances versus have that title? Why is it so important to Tolkien that his Elf-leaders avoid telling people what to do? I will not give you counsel, saying do this, or do that. For not in doing or contriving, nor in choosing between this course and another, can I avail; but only in knowing what was and is, and in part also what shall be.
I think because they have to leave this world to us - its losses and victories will only belong to Men if they lose or win them themselves. Plus the almost Grecian oracle-of-Delphi type of advice that Elves give reminds me of the advice and prophecy that though given must be heavily interpreted by the receiver.
(This post was edited by Brethil on May 29 2015, 1:33am)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 29 2015, 2:35pm
Post #33 of 88
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Reading Sador's answers about the automatic gates, I realised that it is actually something of a horror cliche. Then I began to think about what else looks like that. No knot of curious folks to see the outlandish travellers come in, I note. This would seem odd in a mortal community - compare the crowd that gathers to see the hobbits and Strider off from Bree, because not too much happens in their lives, and everyone wants to have their little part in the excitement before heading back to the Pony (or the water pump or wherever) for a gossip. And these travellers arriving in Lorien are truly exotic - a real live dwarf!! Our Dear Queen's Grandson-in-law-elect! Halflings! And that rumour about Gandalf! In mortal lands there would be crowds, surely.
Hardly anyone comes to see the Fellowship afterwards, either. Not many people to be seen - unlike Rivendell. Legolas and Gimli go off, but the rest of them don't seem to want to see the sights. Come on Sam - what about those gardens and orchards the elves must have? Don't you want to see them? And if you'd only mention 'rope making' this chapter instead of next...
In another book, all this would presage Galadriel turning out to be an evil tyrant, with the Fellowship kept in carefully controlled isolation to prevent them discovering it! I don't think this is what Tolkien intended, BTW, but you can imagine it: no elf-children playing because the tedious, noisome tra-la-laa-lally things have to be exercised well away from Court. Until they're old enough for the hellish lembas trade, of course (do you know what goes into those things?) ....and so on.
As I say, I don't think this is how JRRT would have intended readers to interpret the chapter, but it does seem something is slightly odd.
Maybe all this 'embalming' magic has a sonambulent, narcotic effect & everyone is a bit blissed out?
This feels like it ought to join up with another idea I've been forming, of Galadriel as a sort of uber conservative. What she's doing (and what the author is uneasy about) is magically conserving an area, against the flow of...well, divine will, probably. Such projects in real life tend to lead to tyranny: inconvenient people tend to want change, & need to be set upon by the secret police ('for their own good' of course). Living in your own artificial paradise tends to lead to blindness about the world outside, until unchecked problems build up and break in catastrophically (The wide world is all about you: you can fence yourselves in, but you cannot for ever fence it out.") .
A key difference might well be that the artificiality of Lorien seems to be powered by Galadriel & her Ring. So that is different to historical situations (I'm thinking of the pre-revolutionary French Court, perhaps) where the energy and resources to preserve a fantasy lifestyle were coming from the outside, from people who had an interest in change.
~~~~~~
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 29 2015, 6:14pm
Post #34 of 88
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"sinister" -- As I said before, I find it daunting, not inviting.
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I'd never thought about the lack of curiosity about the exotic strangers, but I think that can be attributed to two things: 1) these are people who don't want any change in their life or contact with the outside world, and 2) these are immortals, and when you've lived hundreds or thousans of years, what's another generation of fruit flies spawning at your feet and living and dying in a few minutes (comparatively)?
Anyway, I like all your parallels, because they are eerily on point with the usual dressed up, too-good-to-be-true realm that heroes blunder naively into, thinking they've found a friend but winding up in a spider's web. I would guess it's all unintentional on Tolkien's part and he's just trying to make Lorien seem as remote as possible from the normal world, so even inside it, the hobbits clearly don't belong there or interact with it on a daily basis.
But Sador has planted doubts in my mind about Galadriel staging the whole Mirror scene to get at Frodo's Ring, so maybe there was an element of "sinister" involved.
Anoher possible perspective is that this cloistered community truly functioned like the Medieval ideal of a convent or monastery where you shut out the world of sin and evil and led a purified, contemplative life in an ideal, pacific society. If that were the case, then even mighty and wise Galadriel had been too long sheltered by the good life and thus was highly vulnerable to Sauron's #1 object of evil coming under her nose. Aragorn said there was no evil there unless someone imported it; well, they did. So maybe Galadriel's morally questionable behavior could be blamed on a lack of immunity to the Ring. Elrond and Gandalf, by contrast, were much involved with the Big Wide World and had layers of resistance to evil through much contactt.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 30 2015, 6:23pm
Post #35 of 88
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Gandalf "returns to life" the same day that Frodo looks in the mirror: co-incidence?
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...Or is it indirect cause & effect? Has Frodo (or has Galadriel) made a decision one effect of which is that Gandalf is now taken to be needed?
Some dates:
January 25, 3019- Gandalf "passes away" having defeated the balrog
February 15: mirror of Galadriel; Gandalf returns to life
February 16: Fellowship leave Lorien
February 17: Gandalf arrives in Lorien
February 26: breaking of the Fellowship; Gandalf assists Frodo when F needs to take off the Ring at Amon Hen
March 1: Gandalf meets Aragorn, Gimli & Legolas
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"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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squire
Half-elven
May 30 2015, 7:45pm
Post #36 of 88
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One can argue unconscious coincidence on Tolkien's part, in that he probably wrote Gandalf's retelling of his resurrection without any exact dates in mind, and only later decided that the overlap between the company leaving Lorien, and Gandalf arriving there, should be as little as one day; in the text Gandalf says they were "but lately gone". By adjusting the 'straying out of thought and time' and the 'healing time', Tolkien could have made it a week instead of a day.
But nothing in the Mirror scene apparently relates to Gandalf's battle with the balrog or his death or his return. The vision in the Mirror of the grey wanderer, which Frodo takes to be a vision of the past (or of Saruman), doesn't foreshadow the white wizard's return. Gandalf would always have been "needed" could anyone have imagined it possible; I wonder if you are thinking that Galadriel's rejection of the Ring triggered the Valar's revival of Gandalf? But I would guess that, if the Mirror scene were connnected that way, the need for Gandalf would have been in the case of Galadriel accepting Frodo's offer and beginning her journey to the Dark Side (as it were). But really, the thematic focus of the Mirror scene is Frodo's and Galadriel's parallel confrontations with Sauron and the Ring, not their need for the wizard's revival. Had Tolkien tried to build a cause-and-effect hint in this regard, he would simply have given away the big surprise in Book III.
The actual "hint", of course, is at Amon Hen and I imagine many readers realize only then that something's up. But for many years I assumed that Gandalf pulled that trick from when he was still at the top of Caradhras, due to his saying he sat in "a high place" as he fought the will of Sauron. It's still not clear when Gandalf was where in the timeline you provide, as it doesn't say when he left Lorien and he himself says only that he "walked long in dark thought" after the Amon Hen intervention, and that he came to Fangorn "by strange roads".
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 31 2015, 4:15am
Post #37 of 88
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thank you for highlighting the colors here, cg. in one part of my mind (the logical, analytical, perhaps) they have not stood out in this fashion until you presented them in this fashion -- but when i look into my mind to see the scene, i see that the images i've always had in my mind match your description, 'tho i never thought about it that way. yes -- green, gold, and silver. and white.
it never occurred to me that the green wall would be anything other than the widest, longest, densest hedge, which might have a touch of self-awareness. everything about lorien seems organic and living.
if my analytical mind thought about it, it would ponder on the possibility of the wall being made of stone leavened in that clever way that reached its heights in the hands of the crafty noldor. but then it would think about galadriel going a bit rustic with the gray elves, and distancing herself from her noldorian heritage (for divers reasons).
the film version ('tho lovely) didn't quite capture caras galadhon for me. too much blue and twilight, not enough gold and green and silver. the film version also made lorien seem like a somber cathedral, which i don't think it is, per the book.
cheers (and delighted to see you hosting this chapter) --
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 31 2015, 4:30am
Post #38 of 88
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Things start out so well: Celeborn greets them each by name and very politely. Then when he hears about 1) the Balrog being awakened and 2) Gandalf dying, he turns cold on them, negating his previous courtesy and regretting his welcome. Does this make you sympathize with Gimli and Boromir, who don't trust these Elves? Could a married couple be any more different? Why do you think Tolkien made them so similar when royal couples in fairy tales are often so similar? Galadriel seems three steps ahead of her hubby at every turn, and they've been married for thousands of years. Hasn't any of her Valinorean wisdom rubbed off on him yet? And she was eager to see Gandalf again because she "much desired to speak with him again." Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall of that conversation?! Galadriel skillfully rebukes Celeborn while winning over the heart of the Dwarf. Do you think she was being sarcastic when she first calls her husband "Celeborn the Wise" after he's criticized Gandalf? Wouldn't everyone at the royal court cringe? Is she trying to make up for that remark when she goes on to say that he is "accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings." Does that mean he's smarter than her, Elrond, and Cirdan? (*cough, cough*) Okay, maybe he's wiser than Haldir, but really? And take note of who gives out the best gifts in the next chapter. ( Hint: not him.) By the end of the chapter, do you think it's a marriage of equals, or are they like bees, where the queen is in charge and the male is around just as a mating drone? Galadriel comments: "for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat." What does "the long defeat" mean to you? Are these more characters persisting against evil without hope, and does that influence Frodo? It's fun to watch words come out of her mouth, because no one else seems to talk in her vaulted style: "I it was who first summoned the White Council." (Not: "It was I.") Clearly summoning White Councils isn't something Celeborn gets to do, nor does he get to lead them. Why do you think it was Galadriel who summoned it and not Elrond or Cirdan or one of the Wizards? And if she summoned it, why couldn't she lead it if Gandalf said no? She picks her next words with care, echoing Gildor in the Shire, who was reluctant to counsel Frodo, and similar to Elrond, who, as Wiz pointed out, co-staged the whole Council to set Frodo up to continue as Ring-bearer to Mordor but wouldn't actually tell him to do so. Why is it so important to Tolkien that his Elf-leaders avoid telling people what to do? I will not give you counsel, saying do this, or do that. For not in doing or contriving, nor in choosing between this course and another, can I avail; but only in knowing what was and is, and in part also what shall be.
lots of interesting things here -- +lots+!
poor celeborn. such potential as a character. interesting heritage (whatever lineage one explores), and married to one of the co-mightiest elves in all of arda.
i think tolkien never really worked celeborn into the mix --- he suffers from "informed attributes," rather than the reader observing them to be true. but it's really not his fault. perhaps tolkien meant to make him more substantial, but never got around to it. perhaps the task never really fired his imagination, and was thwarted by celeborn's proximity to galadriel. "hmmm.... here's something interesting celeborn might do -- oh wait! that would be +perfect+ for galadriel -- i'll give it to her."
galadriel does say that celeborn is accounted the wiseest... but i hear more of tolkien's voice there, rather than hers. i don't think she rebukes him -- i think she reminds him (and all) that he does have wisdom, and perhaps some of his impolite and ill-considered behavior was not representative of his usual self.
galadriel is an interesting character. i certainly get the feeling she was one of tolkien's favorites.... he wants her at the center of things... but one of the fatal flaws of the noldor is this glory-seeking.... so he has to temper her actions with that in mind. also, she -- like the eagles -- is so powerful, a little of her goes a long way in mixed company, lest she usurp the narrative.
the long defeat --- this is the struggle against morgoth, and his heirs. poetically, one could say as well it is the unforestallable (albeit drawn out) fading of the elves.
re the white council --- i think tolkien, as much as he loved galadriel, just couldn't have a female lead, though he was generous in many of his attitudes towards gender, in comparison with his contemporaries.
cheers ----
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
May 31 2015, 4:44am
Post #39 of 88
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Perhaps Tolkien was following the tradition of courtly romances?
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The way Celeborn is handled reminds me of how tales of King Arthur follow more the exploits of his knights and his Queen than his.
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 31 2015, 5:04am
Post #40 of 88
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hallo, sir dennis c :)
'tho i am reasonably familiar with king arthur and the court, i'm less familiar with the earlier source material that you may be referencing.... my most direct consumption comes from the prince valiant comics, and marion zimmer bradley's the mists of avalon (along side of various film adaptations, from excalibur / helen mirren to sean connery / richard gere).
the media i've been exposed to has a strong focus on arthur, so i don't have the same impression that you personally do -- tho i absolutely understand how you, having read more material, can forward that and it be absolutely valid.
funny you should say it, for one of the things that i thought about including in my post was that this unequal treatment of the couple sort of mirrors his treatments of other couples --- except in almost all of them, it is the male who has the power / the interest / the main story, and the female is there to be a suitable consort, and perhaps bear heirs (see elenwe, nerdanel, etc.).
perhaps tolkien has difficulty writing "couples"? the only couple that comes to mind that he wrote with equal treatment (which is separate than giving them equal status / attributes) is luthien and beren.
cheers :)
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 31 2015, 5:15am
Post #41 of 88
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i have often thought, "why bother?" re the mirror of galadriel
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i have often thought, "why bother?" re the mirror of galadriel.
if it shows what was --- how can that help? perhaps it shows what someone else was doing in the past, that could inform the present?
if it shows what is -- well, that might be of help, if it shows what someone else is doing.
if it shows what could be, and that possibility could be erased or imprinted on history, depending on one's actions, but there's no way to tell whether by action or non-action the vision would be either invalidated or validated (and if it's dangerous to see it) -- why bother looking at all?
so.... how can the mirror help? how could it aid anyone?
cheers ---
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 31 2015, 5:38am
Post #42 of 88
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perhaps frodo somehow saw her desire, as he saw nenya?
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Isn't that high-minded of her?
No, it's subtle. She lays the blame for destroying Elvendom at his door, but leaves it there, with a "I'm just sayin'" attitude.
I have always thought that Frodo's regrets in the last chapter referred to Lorien, at least on a secondary level (see here, and the whole thread is very interesting).
It's a small wonder he finally breaks down, and offers her the Ring.
AND:
In fact, Galadriel is probably the only one who isn't - but she is working Frodo into the correct state of mind.
For me, I'm never sure how spontaneous Galadriel is in this situation when Frodo ultimately offers the Ring, yet I do think she's genuinely surprised when he does. Now, you can be surprised when you're manipulating someone and it actually works, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything. But all this leads up to my question: do you think Galadriel led Frodo to the Mirror with the deliberate agenda of having him offer her the Ring, or was she bringing him here solely to gain insight into his quest and gain knowledge that would help him to succeed since Gandalf is no longer around to guide him? Thus, were her motives selfish, or selfless? (Or some combination of the two--maybe she was conflicted herself?)
perhaps frodo somehow was able to see into the other plane (as he was able to see nenya), and saw her desire for the ring --- and this was a factor (not the sole factor) in his offering of it to her? that --- if someone so great and wise wanted it, it would make sense for her to have it?
was the ring working through galadriel, to get her to expose her desire? was it working through frodo to offer it to her, so she could fall?
re the mirror.... i've been thinking of it in a poetic sense..... at night, under stars, it is the mingling of the waters of ulmo and the lights of varda. during the day, it reflects the sky -- manwe's domain -- and is the mingling of ulmo and manwe.
poetry aside, i don't think truly that manwe is at all reflected in galadriel's mirror. ulmo perhaps, as he seems to inhabit water.... but the mirror is "still" water... so does the water have to be "liviing" for the music to exist within it? ulmo also has a history of caring and interceding and advising.
cheers ---
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 31 2015, 7:23am
Post #44 of 88
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You can't do it telepathically, but if you're about to enter into a challenging business venture with someone, won't you ask the Internet what it knows about him/her? Don't employers run credit checks on new hires? This is a very serious, high-risk venture. Everything is at stake here! She, and her allies, have a critical need to know whether they can count on this Ring Bearer. Gandalf knew Frodo and Bilbo, but she doesn't and Gandalf is gone.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 31 2015, 7:30am
Post #45 of 88
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...is why Frodo saw the "black ships" sailing up the Anduin towards the Battle of the Pelennor. Of all the things for him to have seen, why is this relevant? Why would the mirror tell him this (inside rationale)? Why did Tolkien pick this, of all the things he could have shown (external rationale)?
Other interesting things he might have seen:
* Gandalf the White (would have given him hope)
* Charge of the Rohirrim (others are on Our Side)
* The Army of the West at the Black Gate
...other thoughts?
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 31 2015, 9:55am
Post #46 of 88
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I think there are two difficulties in deciding how ethically Galadriel is behaving:
1) We don't know very much about what she actually did
2) We can take different positions on whether, given the high stakes, the ends can be said to justify harsher means.
In real life we can't do...whatever Galadriel does. So, as you say, we try to map it onto the standards we're used to from similar situations (job interviews or police interrogations, perhaps). In real life too there is ambiguity when some new thing comes along - I thought the example you give (googling someone to cross-check what they tell you themselves) is a good example. There are disagreements about how far that should go. For example, a while back, I remember there being controversy over whether it was ethical for potential employers to ask to see a candidate's social media pages, if those were not publicly available.
I'm trying to think of the nearest real-life equivalent I can to Galadriel's grilling of Sam (which is the only one we really hear about). My suggestion is as follows - though of course you guys might or might not agree that it's a fair analogy. .
Let's suppose Mr Gamgee is a valued employee of Lorien Ltd. The company is concerned that he might leave. It would probably be uncontroversial for Sam's manager to talk to him about his current needs and feelings (and, as sador has already said, a shrewd interviewer can get a lot more information out of someone than you might think, just from conversation and observation). Getting information by deception - e.g. impersonating a Recruitment 'headhunter' and contacting Mr Gamgee with a bogus job offer to see what would tempt him away - would look less well, I think.
For myself, rather than thinking I need to work out exactly how inappropriate (or not) Galadriel's behaviour is, I think it is interesting to worry that she is somewhere close to the edge here: there are slippery trade-offs and nuances. I find that more interesting than a story that has simple Good and Evil.
~~~~~~
"nowimė I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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SirDennisC
Half-elven
May 31 2015, 11:16pm
Post #47 of 88
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I like your poetic ideas about the mirror. //
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 31 2015, 11:32pm
Post #48 of 88
(4359 views)
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ah, thank you, sir dennis c -- any time we can work poetry into the mix, i'm happier.
(and april --- which just passed --- is national poetry month, here in the u.s.)
cheers ---
.
aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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Maciliel
Valinor
May 31 2015, 11:34pm
Post #49 of 88
(4360 views)
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thanks, nowime. :) so good to see everyone.
many cheers :)
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aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."
this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo
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CuriousG
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 12:51am
Post #50 of 88
(4356 views)
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Welcome back, Mac! Nice to see you here. I was afraid the Watcher in the Water had gotten a hold of you. Or that maybe you'd married Faramir and had settled down in Ithilien to do some organic gardening and land reclamation from evil. Anything's possible when Tolkien is involved. 
Anyway, I used to think that the city wall had to be organic, because the whole place is organic, but I wondered how practical that was. Lorien does get attacked from Dol Guldur, and those walls seem to be for defense and are not merely decorative, so I wondered if big, green, vegetative walls were really any protection from a real army, and possibly a second Grond. I lean toward thinking the walls are a solid band of trees because really, these people can barely build boats and make rope--they can't even make permanent bridges, so how would they have made stone walls?
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