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Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien
May 26 2015, 9:58pm
Post #1 of 95
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We're forgetting an audience...
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We're forgetting the teens, preteens, and younger kids who watch these films. To me it seems that the movies seem to be generally well-received for the kids, there is a Middle-Earth Club at the Middle School here, which has about 38 people vs the 12 people before The Hobbit movies came out! I was surprised, because I actually found some Tauriel(s) and Bilbo(s) at a costume party a couple of months before at an event in town involving fictional characters.
Also, if you look around when Phillipa Boyens (or Fran Walsh?) said they wanted Tauriel to be an inspiration to the younger kids watching and for feminists, it seems it worked. While older people may have not liked her, which is understandable, if you look carefully many young kids seem to look up to her.
Almost all of these people have not voiced their opinion publicly yet, and people might degrade kids for not being as "smart and wise" as adults. But I believe that being wise comes from experience and not age, I know many ridiculous adults, and many smart adults. I know many ridiculous kids, and many kids who are smarter then most adults I know! From what I saw the movies were well-received by kids in my area, and family friends and their kids seem to like it too. I know a few who still liked LOTR better, and a few who liked The Hobbit better, I don't know the general thoughts of this audience on the movies, but over here in my area it seems to be positive! I think we are forgetting who the people are that will shape the industry when they grow up!
"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."
(This post was edited by Hobbity Hobbit on May 26 2015, 10:09pm)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
May 26 2015, 10:20pm
Post #2 of 95
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Count me as a ridiculous adult!
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 I apparently ACT like a teenage fangirl, and once again I blame it on THESE GUYS!
But seriously, I loved the concept of Tauriel, and she was loads of fun in DOS, but the character stumbled a bit in BOTFA. But I digress, your post is about the younger kids & how these movies might inspire them to read the books, maybe even try writing some characters themselves. This is why I DON'T have a problem with fanfics - I've written dozens myself, on several different movies/TV shows, books even. But now I'm working on an origific of sorts. I think fanfics can be good practice until you're ready for the real thing. And there are plenty of people on this site (of all ages, I presume) who manage to like BOTH the books and the movies. It's been ages since I've read "Lord of the Rings", think I'll add it to my summer reading list (assuming I give the movies a rest long enough to actually do so! ).
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 26 2015, 10:27pm
Post #3 of 95
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PJ is a Father, Fran is a Mother & Philippa is TOO!
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Parents know what they are doing...
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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RosieLass
Valinor
May 26 2015, 10:29pm
Post #4 of 95
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Maybe in the Desolation of Smaug.
But in the last film, Tauriel became nothing but a love interest for a male character. Which is about as anti-feminist as you can get.
"Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may be given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it."
--Joyce Meyer
A life is like a garden. Perfect moments can be had, but not preserved, except in memory. LLAP
--Leonard Nimoy
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Elarie
Grey Havens
May 26 2015, 11:04pm
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She defied her king and tried her best to warn the dwarves on Ravenhill and save them. A lot of people don't like the way that storyline was handled, but in terms of being inspirational to youngsters she was a success because she had the courage to try to do the right thing. She set a good example of being brave and trying to help her friends, and that's a good message for kids to take away from a movie.
__________________
Gold is the strife of kinsmen,
and fire of the flood-tide,
and the path of the serpent.
(Old Icelandic Fe rune poem)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 27 2015, 12:29am
Post #6 of 95
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There were TONS of Tauriels.
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Morthoron
Gondor
May 27 2015, 1:00am
Post #7 of 95
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Tauriel was turned into a babbling bowl of goo in BotFA. She needed aid in fighting her enemies in the final film, whereas previously she was a Ninja assassin Elf, and she had completely changed for the worse (much like Arwen's change from Princess Xenarwen in FotR to "Arwen is dying" in TTT), turning into a weak character from a previous position of strength. Jackson/Boyens betrayed the character (who, obviously, I didn't care for in the first place). So, no, the inspiration might have been available to actual professional writers, but those tinkering with the script in The Hobbit failed miserably.
As far as teens and preteens watching the movies, my daughter (turned 15 in May) and her friends were utterly baffled and turned off by the films -- because they had already read the book. They didn't need invented characters placed in strategic parts for marketing purposes to enjoy a story they loved. And that, once again, speaks to Jackson selling the audience short, often beating viewers over the head with blatant storylines, dredging up the basest bowel-movement humor, or repeating bits from LotR ad nauseam as if everyone in the cinema was simply too stupid to get that this was a prequel (which even nearsighted apologists have complained about).
Just like they betrayed Tauriel, they betrayed Faramir and Denethor previously, making complex and noble characters into a muddled and vacillating son with a father-complex (in the case of Faramir), and a despicable and traitorous madman (Denethor) because the scriptwriters lacked subtlety and believed the audience could not grasp anything but the most black and white characters. They misread much of Tolkien, and when Tolkien's story wasn't misread, decisions were made in a vacuum and bits were added on the fly so that characters in one film act very different or disappear altogether from the previous films and plot points get utterly lost or minimized.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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AshNazg
Gondor
May 27 2015, 1:06am
Post #8 of 95
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Strange when you think it was predominantly written by two women //
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Avandel
Half-elven
May 27 2015, 2:22am
Post #9 of 95
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E.g., I can see it, I guess . Between the rumored? idea that PJ just loved the idea of a "female fighting elf" and the fact that PJ and Philippa have daughters - e.g. writing for their children, in effect.
But as "feminism" goes, if my thought is accurate, then IMO as a model for professionalism, and women at work, IMO it was a huge fail, in that having the gift of rights to make a film of a beloved classic in their hands,
as a professional IMO "tweaking the fans" and adding in characters or having hot dwarves and bunny sleds is one thing, changing central tenets is another re the Durins not dying together and the inexplicable romance angles - and/or the sheer amount of screen time devoted to Tauriel.
Or, if you wanted to make a film with a heroic female elf, why shoehorn that into a well-known story ? Why not develop something original, like a smaller part for Tauriel in the Hobbit and then do some sort of spin-off? Why force a huge presence in the Hobbit or - as rumored - onto LOTR?
It awes me sometimes, thinking of Tauriel - a blockbuster film, based on a literary classic, millions of dollars at stake, to bring this to life - and evidently personal views? somehow became enough to override a well-known narrative - even if, as was pointed out in another TORn post, it was cleverly done and at least cohesive.
That's one thing that bothers me, that in real life, as writers, it was unprofessional IMO to foist changes to that degree onto a well-known story, while at the same time touting author respect. In addition, to not actually asking the many females who have pointed out they had no objection to the story as written - indeed, many women have pointed out the reverent treatment of women in Tolkien's works.
And as a "role model" - I would hope females would ponder more than Tauriel
http://tolkienblog.com/...ons-dislike-tauriel/
There are more detailed essays than this, but other authors have pointed out items like Thranduil's kingdom being under siege, these dwarves show up and evidently Thranduil knows of the prophecy, but more time is spent discussing WITH HIS CAPTAIN OF THE GUARD his son's affections....
But for me - we have a person who abandons their post, defies her king/boss and on top of that, what kind of message does it send that once again, we have a heroine who is uber-slim with nice long hair? At least Hermione Granger had frizzy hair and was geeky and into books.
And most of all, I suppose it will always be an open question - whether including this character, one reason being supposedly for "11 year old girls 5 years from now" was worth doing, e.g. will these mythical girls even care. And in the meantime, the paying customers possibly lost out on what they paid to see, and want to re-see in years to come (a more canon-based fate for the Durins, for instance).
Interestingly, I was in a bookstore this weekend and there was all this "Frozen" kid stuff - but not Tauriel kid stuff. And Star Wars.
Although, to be fair:
Disney has been accused of sending an unrealistic message to young girls by animating the heroine from its new film Frozen with eyes that are larger than her wrists.
Philip N. Cohen, a sociologist at the University of Maryland at College Park writes in a post for Sociological Images that according to his observations ‘Giant eyes and tiny hands symbolize femininity in Disneyland.’
Through research he discovered that Disney tends to animate its typically-thin female protagonists even thinner when they are portrayed as the subject of romantic attention.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/...s.html#ixzz3bIUY9BMy
Anyway - I hope the folks who one day shape the industry do something like have a heroine with curves, maybe some facial flaws and messy hair, who asks questions about her own behavior, and isn't good at everything, kind of, even when she's not. And don't shoehorn in romance just because .
E.g., that the women one day who shape the film industry don't remake the Three Musketeers with female heroes - because it's the Three Musketeers, you know? They're supposed to be guys.
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Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien
May 27 2015, 2:24am
Post #10 of 95
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I never thought Tauriel was necessary. But did I enjoy watching her? I actually did. It is an abrupt change for people who weren't so deep into the other movies, but what you are seeing is character arch. This is the time where Tauriel is suppose to be weakest, where her weakness begins to take her and makes her change.
"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."
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Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien
May 27 2015, 2:42am
Post #11 of 95
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I have to disagree with you, I realize that you wanted the dwarves to have more time, but what they were trying to do is show The Quest of Erebor, which also included the elves, men, etc.
As what you are saying goes, I have to agree, but disagree with you. I don't feel that it is shoehorned in, it feels natural to me just not in the book. Also the other point is while I get book changes are sometimes annoying, many famous adaptations have gotten away with it. Some such as How to Train Your Dragon. Hiccup's mother never disappeared, and the book is still a children's book, and nothing in the second film ever happened in the book at all. Of course it isn't a well-known book, but it's still someone's adaptation. I'm not saying your statement is wrong, I agree partly in putting her in, but their reasons are because of feminism, while you may not like Tauriel there are feminists who did like her.
I think the problem was that The Hobbit was a controversial film, it had to many what ifs, or how about that in pre-production. What I mean is, would it be whimsical and funny like the beginning of The Hobbit book, or would it be gritty and serious as Lord of the Rings. There reasoning may not be the most agreeable, but statistics say that the majority of the financially-successful films that are out now, usually have female leads: The Hunger Games, Guardians of the Galaxy, and many more. Since the movie is controversial, it is likely that in the future it will either leave movie history or it will be looked upon as a masterpiece for being ahead of its time.
"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."
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MEM
The Shire
May 27 2015, 5:03am
Post #12 of 95
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I wouldn't minded Tauriel so much ...
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if she hadn't gotten so involved with the characters (Kili). I can totally see having her in the film, but just have her story in addition to the dwarves.
I'm mixed on PJ & Co having said that they needed a female character for a female audience - yeah, most movies are men and it's awesome every time I can see a female character who's more than just boobs or tragic back story for a male main character. But I think going in to this movie, I knew that the characters were all male, and it seems almost, I don't know, pandering to add her in like that in the hopes of getting a bigger audience. (And it's not that women won't see a movie with nearly all male characters or men's stories being the focus; we've been doing that for ages. It's movies that focus on women that we need to get the men to go see). I didn't mind Tauriel much, really; I hated the love triangle they were kinda going for.
I do think that for young girls (and all women, really) Tauriel's great. Any chance that young ladies can see women in roles like hers can only be a good thing.
I'm a Middle-Earth Munchkin.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
May 27 2015, 8:13am
Post #13 of 95
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On the broad point, I think it is a good one.
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There is a preponderance of discussion of the films in relation to the audience segment of middle aged Middle Earth geeks. This is, however, not a big segment, to say the least.
Of course, those from the aforementioned group who weren't keen may percieve that they were sitting in cinemas full of the stonily silent, surrounded by crowds who shared their dislike. But as I think Freeman mentioned, given that each of these films was in the top percentile of popularity globally, somebody liked them.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 27 2015, 10:49am
Post #14 of 95
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ISN'T 700 YEARS, a mere 7 Blinks in eyes of an Elf?
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If we are asked to believe that Thranndy is about 7000 years old
If we are asked to believe Leggy is about 3000 years old.
If we are asked to believe Kili is about 80 years old..?
THEN?
Tauriel is Still pretty much a
Teenager..in the Long Lifetime of an Immortal Elf?
Bom hasn't owned a TV, for over 7 years,
therefore had ONLY watched about one Half of an Episode of "LOST"
& had really No pre-conceived notion of what Miss Lily even looked like.
But the people who had, might have put their own Notions into this
Movie of what she would portray..
WE are asked to Believe? that these are NOT Actors,
We are asked to Believe? these are characters from about
8000 years ago, in a Time where Magic, Dragons, & Immortal Beings
ruled this "Fantasy land"..
Long before the..
Rise of a lowly
Race called Men
Rose..to
RULE...
ALSO, what do we know about Tauriel?
Supposedly Orphaned, cared for by Thranndy..
Rarely if ever, left his Kingdom..ALSO, She likely did not spend her entire Life
Fighting Gigantic Spiders, since this was a Fairly New development.
Bom's opinion is that people HERE who own a TV & have it ON most of the time?
HAVE seen many, many storylines like this? All the Time!
Therefore can't help compare, what is on the screen here,
to what they are exposed to..
ALL their long Life time....
from
YOUR Newly Self-Elected President? of the "Defenders of Tauriel Club"
   
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on May 27 2015, 10:57am)
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CathrineB
Rohan
May 27 2015, 10:54am
Post #15 of 95
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I think one problem with at least the final movie is that PJ & Co are trying to reach out to too many people. Tauriel was a good character until they slammed her into a terrible love story you've seen a million times. That must have been aiming for young audience because most older audience seem to hate it me included. Then there's the hurrying of getting things done - critics. Then there's his own love for elves and dry humor (that humor must have been aimed for kids too geez) that seem to take over.
So no, for me it's hard to forget that there is the young audience too. I just don't get how Phillipa wanted to use Tauriel as a inspiration and then do that to her character.
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dormouse
Half-elven
May 27 2015, 11:26am
Post #16 of 95
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Especially as The Hobbit is a children's book. That's the audience the story was devised and published for and people would have expected to take their children to see it.
As for Tauriel being an inspiration to the younger audience, particularly the girls, I don't know whether she is or she isn't but I can't help being quietly amused by all the indignation at the fact that love came into her story. Leaving aside the question of how they handled that aspect of things, I can't see anything intrinsicly wrong in showing kids that people fall in love - it is something that tends to happen now and then, and the results aren't always happy. There was another aspect to it too which nobody seems to notice - love without prejudice. Surely that was an idea with some merit...
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
May 27 2015, 2:28pm
Post #17 of 95
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Ridiculous adult here piping in again. I am also one of those women PB & FW were wanting to attract, because I must confess I was HAPPY to hear that they were including a female presence. Maybe it's because I was not as enamored with the original story as others on TORn, but most likely it's because 1. I did actually spend some time in the military in my youth, and 2. we've seen the "kick-butt female" archetype in movies for, oh, 30 years now? Starting with Sarah Conner in "Terminator," going through "Xena: Warrior Princess", and even having some Bond girls that were tougher than James Bond himself - think Halle Berry. I think in a way it's become expected in movies, this didn't start with "The Avengers." (Although if I compared Tauriel with Black Widow I think she'd come up on the loosing end.) So I was familiar enough with the story to wonder, when I read Evangeline had been cast, who she would be playing - Bard's wife, perhaps? No, an Elf Warrior and Captain of the Guard. Oh, okay, why not? Surely there were female Elves, I've heard a rumor there are even female Dwarves out there somewhere. And if Hilda Bianca can arm herself why not an Elf? Okay, some will complain that this goes against the "spirit" of Tolkien; but I have to ask how much did he really "revere" women when they were barely mentioned in his books??? Yes, the Hobbit was written in the 1930s, at a time when women weren't expected to do ANYTHING - watch "The Imitation Game" for more on that subject. But that was then, and this is now, and younger girls have seen Merida and Katniss, and they're probably used to seeing something like this in movies. It's not "feminist" so much as "feminine presence." Finally, let me say that although I agree with Avandel on lots of subjects (the Durins in particular ), the idea that you shouldn't add any new characters to a movie adaptation because it goes against "canon" is not one of them. People who love the original book may or may not like the change, that is true, but people who are unfamiliar with the book aren't going to care very much about canon. And those that love the original story always have the option of NOT seeing the movie. I didn't particularly want to see "Noah" because yeah, they turned one of his sons into an adopted daughter. Yeah, THAT is a canon I don't particularly want to see someone "rewrite," but clearly lots of other people out there didn't have a problem with it. Now that I've said that, let me ask: What if instead of adding Tauriel PB decided to make one or more of the Dwarves into females? Better? Worse? About the same? Think about it.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 27 2015, 2:47pm
Post #18 of 95
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Tauriel is Still pretty much a
Teenager..in the Long Lifetime of an Immortal Elf?
Well, I don't think that Prof. Tolkien was completely consistent in this, but in his essay "Laws and Customs Among the Eldar" Tolkien wrote that Elves first reached adulthood around the age of fifty years with some not reaching their full-growth until they were approximately one hundred years old. He went on to add that it was customary for the Eldar to marry not long after turning fifty (although the legendarium seems to have many exceptions).
I do wonder how much such customs varied where it came to the Avari and to those of the Teleri who were more like their wilder kin.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
May 27 2015, 3:08pm
Post #19 of 95
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Hey, Which movie did you see ?
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In Reply To
Tauriel was turned into a babbling bowl of goo in BotFA. She needed aid in fighting her enemies in the final film, whereas previously she was a Ninja assassin Elf, and she had completely changed for the worse (much like Arwen's change from Princess Xenarwen in FotR to "Arwen is dying" in TTT), turning into a weak character from a previous position of strength. Jackson/Boyens betrayed the character (who, obviously, I didn't care for in the first place). So, no, the inspiration might have been available to actual professional writers, but those tinkering with the script in The Hobbit failed miserably.
Didn't you see that Thranduil BROKE Tauriel's bow ?
That's why she went on Ravenhill harmless. Not because PJ 'betrayed' her.
Notice that Legolas himself, after having shot his last arrow, had difficulties against Bolg.
Would Tauriel have kept her bow, she would have send an arrow in each of Bolg's only eye and it would have been over.
Get it, filthy Tauriel-Sucker ?
(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on May 27 2015, 3:08pm)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 27 2015, 3:59pm
Post #20 of 95
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Even Leggy? couldn't "Handle". Bolg in Laketown?
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SSOoo..@ Ravenhill he has a Second Chance,
as Well as saving his
Elvish Sister.
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on May 27 2015, 4:02pm)
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
May 27 2015, 4:19pm
Post #21 of 95
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So Tauriel is there as some kind of social enginery?
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I would hate that.
I like some ideas in Tauriel storyline. But I think is not necessary having her.
If the character was introduced only to fill some social agenda then it has not my respect at all. For that matter one of the dwarves should have been oriental, and other races too.
No, that´s not Tolkien. In Tolkien lore we have Eowyn, this character is a strong female character and a fighter. Then we have Arwen who is a quiet, in second term but patient character, and then we have Galadriel who is all that and wisedom made woman.
I dont think it is necessary to have a character for the sake of social requirements, or money making by atracting boys or girls, and that goes to Legolas too.
The book is about a regular man who goes in an adventure THATS IT
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero
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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
May 27 2015, 4:28pm
Post #22 of 95
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It's not about forgetting the audience.
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More a case of pointing out that it is possible to make a popular adaptation that allows the original story to remain itself, without adding elements that are significantly at odds with the original, or that replace key parts of the actual story in the running time.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
May 27 2015, 4:31pm
Post #23 of 95
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The main necessity is to have some elf character embodied on screen
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Otherwise, the Tolkien-canon movie would carry only an un-named Elven King, and a drunken one supposedly keeping the barrels.
Fine ! Take a shoot on that basis and then try to convince the movie industry as it is now, to jump on such a ride.
Movie industry is some kind of social engineery.
As are Theater plays
As are fictional characters
As are Fan Websites.
And so on.
Anything wrong with that ?
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
May 27 2015, 4:40pm
Post #24 of 95
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I understand that, but a single movie, with that ride you mention works.
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Even a two movie, with that same ride expanded with more character moments (without Dol Guldur)
I dont care a bout movie, or theater industry is about, I care about good stories
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 27 2015, 4:45pm
Post #25 of 95
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The main necessity is to have some elf character embodied on screen. Otherwise, the Tolkien-canon movie would carry only an un-named Elven King, and a drunken one supposedly keeping the barrels.
I will point out that the drunken keeper of the keys remains in the film and is even given a name (although it's one that he shares with the brother of Elrond). Even his friend Galion the wine steward is present. Either Galion's role or Elros' role could have been expanded, but Jackson & Co. decided to create a new character instead and, other than the unrequited romance, that was okay.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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