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What one thing would need to change for them to live? Plus fanart!

Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 26 2015, 9:46pm

Post #1 of 9 (14698 views)
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What one thing would need to change for them to live? Plus fanart! Can't Post

Okay, this is kind of a "what if" more than anything else. Yes, I wrote a fanfic where Kili survived his wounds, but Fili & Thorin still died. So I'm wondering what would have to change for them all to survive? The idea that Thorin needed to die to atone for his - I don't know, he was kind of a grumpy old coot in the book but overall I didn't think he was so bad. Movie Thorin was another story, consumed by greed and all that, but he got over it and fought on the good side - and was killed, along with his nephews. Well, one could argue that his death was necessary, but I wonder if it really was? So, maybe I should make this a contest: what one thing would need to change in order for Thorin, Fili & Kili to survive? Would some of the other dwarves need to die in their place? Would we need another character that can better resolve things than Bilbo? Is it a simple matter of Thorin NOT falling into dragon sickness? What if Gandalf had been there all along, could he have changed the outcome? Legolas killing Bolg in Laketown? OK, yeah my head is stuck in the movie-verse, but I'd be interested in someone's book-verse opinion.

This question was inspired by some cool fanart I found today:



Could be 10 - 20 years later, Fili's hair is longer and Kili finally has a beard - inspiration for fanfics everywhere!

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association

(This post was edited by Kilidoescartwheels on May 26 2015, 9:54pm)


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jun 7 2015, 3:00pm

Post #2 of 9 (14516 views)
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I may have an answer [In reply to] Can't Post

I've read a few fanfics where the Heirs of Durin live - no explanation how, so I asked this question to see if there were any small change that could affect the outcome (besides an OC being added to the story). So what I came up with is, what if Gandalf went to Erebor first, to check on the Dwarves. Now, this is strictly movie-verse, though I suppose it could also happen in book-verse. Anyway, suppose Gandalf arrived right after Thorin told Bard to "Be gone, ere our arrows fly!" Bilbo had already sown seeds of doubt in the Dwarves minds, and then Gandalf tells them the Orc army is coming. Although that may not be enough to snap Thorin out of it, it could be enough for some of the dwarves (i.e., Fili, Kili, Balin and possibly Dwalin) to form a pact & agree to cut a deal with Bard & Thranduil. Then Gandalf & Bilbo take some of the gold to Dale & negotiate with Bard, Bilbo will still have to give the Arkenstone to Thranduil to trade later for the necklace, in order to secure their cooperation. So then instead of laying seige to Erebor they line up to defend the Mountain against the Orcs, with some of Thranduil's elves staying in Dale.

Another possibility would be if Legolas & Tauriel didn't wait until dark to investigate, discover the Gundabad army & head back earlier to warn everyone. Thranduil may not believe Gandalf, but he'd have to believe his own son. Or possibly some combination of the two. I know I should be working on my Origi-fic, but I just really want to write a fanfic to go with that picture. I think I'll write it while I'm in Egypt, floating down de Nile.Wink

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jun 8 2015, 8:17pm

Post #3 of 9 (14473 views)
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This is based on the movies, right? [In reply to] Can't Post

All that would really need to happen is Tauriel/Legolas get back sooner, or Bilbo gets to Ravenhill before Fili and Kili go reconnoiter the tower thing where Azog sets his ambush anyway.

I see two issues that would need to be addressed - one is, another way for the battle to end. Thorin retreats, understanding Azog was planning an ambush, and that avoids the deaths, but what does he do next? What do Tauriel and Legolas do? How does the battle play out with Azog alive but the Eagles, Beorn and Radagast helping? The writer would need to come up with something.

The other is the issue that Thorin "needs" to die. Personally, I think this is easily gotten around by Thorin doing the right things after the battle - treating the Men and Elves who fought with the Dwarves as honored allies - giving the Men all they need to rebuild Dale, returning the jewels to Thranduil, recognizing the invaluable help of Dain and his men, etc. In place of his last words to Bilbo, he'd have to give Bilbo a grand send-off with some of the same words (recognizing Bilbo's actions re: the Arkenstone as what a true friend would do, the valuing home over gold idea, etc).



Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Jun 9 2015, 12:36am

Post #4 of 9 (14459 views)
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Well that's a good point [In reply to] Can't Post

And yes, this is movie-verse. So, what I was thinking is that the battle would have a different outcome because everyone would be ready & waiting for the Orcs, instead of being unprepared & wasting time fighting each other. Technically there would be more survivors in Laketown as well, but yeah, figuring out how to kill Azog & Bolg is an issue that would need to be addressed. I have started writing the fanfic, and Gandalf first goes to Erebor hoping to find Thorin and tell him about Thrain. News of his father starts to bring the old Thorin back, but I haven't written very much yet. As far as Thorin needing to die, well I'm not sure I agree with that. IMO, in both the book & movie I believe he redeems himself when he rejoins the battle after initially refusing. His death is the unfortunate consequence of that decision; his deathbed apology to Bilbo is very touching but Bilbo isn't the only one he owes an apology to - he pretty much stiffed Laketown and Dain, but like I said by rejoining the battle he makes up for that. However, the fanfic is at least starting out in the future, with the older Kili & Fili, and Thorin is alive but his health is failing. I am considering keeping the Azog fight, and having Thorin stabbed but not mortally wounded. I was thinking Dain might show up and save Thorin, or maybe Bilbo (although that would be repeating AUJ, wouldn't it?). So, like Frodo Thorin will survive, but never fully recover. What do you think?

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


arithmancer
Grey Havens


Jun 9 2015, 1:22am

Post #5 of 9 (14457 views)
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Thorin [In reply to] Can't Post

I was not disagreeing with your point of view; I generally don't find I feel characters who commit wrongs "need" to die to atone for them (hence my use of quotes there!) That was what I was trying to express, that if Thorin genuinely sees the error of his ways and that is why he fights, and he later comports himself honorably towards his allies after the battle, his survival is not a problem.

I could see having Azog wound Thorin and Dain come to the rescue- Dain fighting Azog is a credible matchup (actually in the Appendices a very young Dain slew Azog at Azanulbizar). I agree making it Bilbo would be repetitive.



Kerling
The Shire


Oct 1 2015, 6:50am

Post #6 of 9 (13905 views)
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It does not take much [In reply to] Can't Post

 . . . and yet it takes a huge amount, in my view. In practical ( film version) terms of course it is easy peasy you just have Kili and Fili do the recce as ordered and withdraw at contact and go back to fight with Thorin and Dwalin as they finish off a little light goblin slaying. ( Only a 100, light work for war dwarves, mwhahaaa). Then if Thorin does take on Azog it would not take much for one of Thorin's earlier blows ( he got a good leg slash in) to have caused more damage and so when Azog goes under the ice he has not got the strength left to cut the chain and rather unbelievably emerge in a big dadaaaa move ( even assuming he had held his breath, cut the chain and broken the ice he would have a struggle to pull himself out if 'real' and look silly doing so).

However, cinematically this would have all the oomph of a marshmallow and however far the film trilogy is from Tolkien, it would take it completely away, since what almost certainly influenced him was the loss of young promise in WWI which made Kili and Fili 'doomed'. If film Fili had remained alive it might just have worked ( you could not see Kili as King Under the Mountain material as portrayed, whereas Fili was showing good signs) but even so . . .very iffy.

As for Thorin, bless him. whilst the atonement arc is very clear and works, it begs the question, should he have to atone for succumbing to an 'illness'? Takoing film Thorin alone, what we have is a dwarf who has given his adult life to his people, despite personal tragedy on a large scale, demeaned himself even in the world of MEN, to keep them fed, led them to a 'good life, worth more than all the gold in Erebor' and who does not simply go back to Erebor to be rich and swanky. He goes because they are still in his mind exiles, and Thror and Thrain dreamt of reclaiming it. He is duty bound to go, at whatever cost. He is afraid of Smaug (everyone would be) and is probably even more afraid of what the gold may do to him, but he has to do it, and he does. That he succumbs to dragon-sickness is not a character flaw that means he needs to atone with his death ( though one wonders how it hit so fast and with so little effect on the rest despite what Gandalf says about its corrupting powers). He does snap out of it, which is an immense plus ( Thror presumably only did so when removed from its presence) and performs great feats upon the battlefield.

Yet again though, if he survived, the shape of the story is ruined. It becomes like some second rate road film where everything endd happily every after, no sweat, no trouble. Even as a children's tale that is gutless. Taking out other dwarves instead would not work in book of film as they have so much less impact anyway ( sorry chaps).

So I think this is the end that has to be . . .ish. I have my own way of making it less slightly less awful for the Line of Durin, but that is an 85k derivative that is not going where the entire internet can read it, thank you.

I would just add that Tolkien was a devout man. He had faith in a world to come. He wrote of such worlds for the races of Middle Earth, and there can be no doubt that Thorin, Fili and Kili would be welcomed into the Dwarven Afterlife as heroic examples of how an Heir of Durin should be ( just don't mention the elf, sssh).

Þæs oferéode, ðisses swá mæg


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Oct 1 2015, 11:22pm

Post #7 of 9 (13837 views)
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Well, I wrote it anyway [In reply to] Can't Post

And it's posted under Fan Art. You can read it if you want, it's called "In Remembrance of the Fallen." It may not be as good as "The Hobbit," but like I said, I didn't like the fact that both nephews were killed. Maybe I wasn't supposed to. But probably the most annoying part is the way Tolkien said it, like it was just an afterthought, which makes me question the explanations I usually get about how his friends were killed in WW1. Surely his friends would have counted as more than an afterthought. Nope, I don't like it, nor do I like that some random guy (Dain) shows up at the last minute and gets everything. I think I treated Dain heroically enough, he ends up saving Thorin from Azog. Also, Thorin doesn't escape unscathed, and the Company does suffer some loss because that's only realistic. And I think I gave the Fallen more attention than Tolkien gave the nephews. All of this is just my opinion, after all.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Kerling
The Shire


Oct 2 2015, 5:27am

Post #8 of 9 (13820 views)
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Fair enough. I am obviously just responding to the question itself. I would . . . . [In reply to] Can't Post

not presume to say what another person's imagination may give them. The brilliant thing about narrative writing is that it IS one's imagination and that is what gives us so many books when curmudgeons who do not like fiction tell us 'they are all nearly the same since there are only X ( X being a very small number) plots. If you take it at its broadest that has to be true. In fact other than unfinished novels or really weird ones, all novels are the a same because they follow 'beginning, middle, end'. The beauty is in how we achieve those elements, and the human imagination is a wondrous thing.

My sincere apologies for causing offence. I am new to the forum and did not understand the 'dangers' of commenting upon threads untouched for several months. As I say, I thought it was a theoretical position. I had already noted In Remembrance of the Fallen as a story that had been well read, and did not make the connection that this thread was in fact a precursor to it, begun when you had the story swirling in your head.

I have learned my lesson. Thank you for putting me straight.

Þæs oferéode, ðisses swá mæg


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


Oct 3 2015, 2:39am

Post #9 of 9 (13759 views)
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No need to apologize [In reply to] Can't Post

I was not offended at all - I realize fanfics aren't everyone's cup of tea to begin with. I see them mostly as practice for when a writer is ready to write an original story - which I have also done. You're right that there are really a limited number of stories, part of the human experience I guess. I think that's something writers can't worry about, you just write and see if it's logical, entertaining, etc. (One could say the same thing about movies, too!)

As far as "In Remembrance of the Fallen" goes, as I mentioned it was inspired by that fanart, and the fact that I wanted a "better ending" IMO than what I got in "The Hobbit." Now obviously LOTS of people disagree with me on the story - being that it's a classic that is loved by millions, and maybe I'm just not getting whatever point was Tolkien was making. Heck, my original fic may also be "underdeveloped" with a less than satisfying ending. I suppose all an author can do is write what they feel and hope for the best. I once had a conversation about the necessity of death in a story. I mean, there's just something about death that gives a story realism, or impact. And yeah, the more you like a character, the more impact that death will have. I actually like Jane Austen, but she skated that issue in a way similar to what you describe. All her stories had someone who became deathly ill, but then recovered. She's probably not everyone's cup of tea, either. So, as far as "The Hobbit" goes, I could actually deal with Thorin's death. Yes it was tragic, but that's what gave the story such an impact. But the nephews weren't handled in the same way, it just seemed like such a waste.

Anyway, please don't think I was offended, and I really wasn't trying to put you down or anything. Sorry if I came across that way.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association

 
 

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