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Faramir74
Bree
May 26 2015, 8:56pm
Post #1 of 17
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Gollum in Moria
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Something which has been on my mind for a very long time: how and why was Gollum in Moria? We know from the Council of Elrond debate that he was previously in the care/watch of the Wood Elves in Mirkwood. Then one night he "escaped" with the help of Orcs. Nothing else is heard about Gollum until the Fellowship (specifically Frodo, although Aragorn also knows) hear and see the padding feet & eyes. But why Moria? Was he still intent on finding Baggins and Ring?? Perhaps he was simply going through Moria on his way West? Did he receive information about the Company and it's quest from the various spies such as beasts and birds? Or purely coincidence that they were all inside Moria at the same time?
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 26 2015, 9:08pm
Post #2 of 17
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he was going west and entered Moria through the east-gate (Lorien-side), and got stuck at the Hollin gate, unsure how to open it. By that time he was avoiding Orcs and wasn't going to ask them for help, but he still seemed to have safe passage with them (and he accompanied them to Lorien in the pursuit of Frodo, but it seems as a sort of free agent). It was lucky for him that the Fellowship came along when it did, or he might not have found them at all. And perhaps might not have found his way back to the east-gate. We discussed this awhile ago, and my memory is fuzzy. Maybe someone else remembers the details better. Good question!
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Faramir74
Bree
May 26 2015, 9:14pm
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Thanks for your reply. Unfortunately I couldn't find any earlier discussion about this. I will re-read the Journey in the Dark and Lothlorien chapters but as far as I can remember it doesn't give a proper account of when and how Gollum decided to go through Moria. As you say, it was by coincidence that the Fellowship went through at the same time, and I guess he only had to figure out a Baggins was in the group, carrying something of importance!
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geordie
Tol Eressea
May 26 2015, 9:19pm
Post #4 of 17
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Gollum was heading West; but he was out of food by the time he got to the Hollin gate. He didn't know how to work the doors. This from Scull & Hammond's book 'The Lord of the Rings: A Reader's Companion', p. 285. They're quoting Unfinished Tales pp.345, 353 note 11, revised from the Marquette papers.
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
May 28 2015, 10:31pm
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From Sauron's agents from the Elves he had just escaped and from their allies. With his previous history in the moutains, it was the best place for him to escape, or at least that was how I read it.
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AshNazg
Gondor
May 31 2015, 11:55pm
Post #8 of 17
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Wasn't Gollum following the hobbits in Bree?
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I think just after the ferry? There's a mention of a shadow or something? I should probably re-read I can't remember when Gollum started following them. The shadow may have been a wraith or something else.
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squire
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 12:06am
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Most readers assume the various lurking shadows in Book I are the Nazgul, or in one case Strider. That one of them might have been Gollum is an intriguing and original idea. The biggest conundrum that sets up is how he got to Moria - inside the magically closed doors - before the Fellowship did. It's possible, as I think about it, that the key is the day they arrive in Hollin, when the sun shines on them and warms them for the first time since they left Rivendell. Knowing that Gollum loathes and fears the sun, we might assume he was driven away from the Ring out of desperation, and sought the 'roots' of the mountains (just as he did when he first got the Ring) while the Company was attempting the pass of Caradhras. How did he pass the doors of the West Gate? Another puzzler. My only guess is that he was desperate for fresh fruit by then, and much as stranded prospectors in the Old West are said to have gasped "Water! water!" as they crawled across the salt pans, so Gollum may have crawled up to the giant holly trees croaking "Melon! melon!" and - much to his surprise, no doubt - opened the doors by accident. It's all theory, of course, but that's what the Reading Room is for!
squire online: RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'. Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!" squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary = Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 12:07am
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No, that was actually Strider!
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I assume you're referring to the moment just after the 4 Hobbits had spoken with the Bree gatekeeper:
As soon as his back was turned, a dark figure climbed quickly in over the gate and melted into the shadows of the village street. We are clearly meant to suspect this is a Rider, but later, in the Prancing Pony, Strider confesses:
Now, I was behind the hedge this evening on the Road west of Bree, when four hobbits came out of the Downlands. I need not repeat all that they said to old Bombadil or to one another, but one thing interested me. Please remember, said one of them, that the name Baggins must not be mentioned. I am Mr. Underhill, if any name must be given. That interested me so much that I followed them here. I slipped over the gate just behind them. I think there's no reason to believe Gollum picked them up until Moria. He had apparently been living there since escaping from the Elves.
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 1 2015, 12:26am
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That's about as conclusive as it gets. I must've forgotten Aragorn's account. I must say that's altered the mental image I had considerably. The scene I imagined of a dark creature slinking over the gate, is now a large, almost ninja-like, man stealthily gliding into the shadows. Both are equally sinister, though. Such interesting way to introduce what is ultimately the king of men.
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AshNazg
Gondor
Jun 1 2015, 12:34am
Post #12 of 17
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I imagine the watcher attack caught Gollum's attention...
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It's been a while, but if like the book the watcher crumbles and blocks the door? Then Gollum is surely an experienced expert in squeezing into tight rock holes, so he probably wouldn't have much trouble getting in.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on Jun 1 2015, 12:35am)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
Jun 1 2015, 1:10am
Post #13 of 17
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If (as I believe) Gollum had been living in Moria since escaping from the Elves, he would certainly have heard the rockfall that blocked the door, and would have picked up the Company not long after.
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Faramir74
Bree
Jun 1 2015, 7:19pm
Post #14 of 17
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So if Gollum had been living inside Moria since escape from the Elves, had he given up all hope of ever locating both Baggins and the Ring? Which raises a further question: just how much longer would he survive without the Ring? Don't forget, he lost it approx 60 years earlier. How did he avoid being seen and exactly how did he kill for food eg Orcs, fish etc? My guess is things were looking bleak for Gollum until the Fellowship arrived in Moria and he summoned his last strength to pursue them in one last attempt to get the Ring back.
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Pandallo
Rivendell
Jun 3 2015, 6:16am
Post #15 of 17
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Original Gates of Moria Chapter...
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Most readers assume the various lurking shadows in Book I are the Nazgul, or in one case Strider. That one of them might have been Gollum is an intriguing and original idea. The biggest conundrum that sets up is how he got to Moria - inside the magically closed doors - before the Fellowship did. It's possible, as I think about it, that the key is the day they arrive in Hollin, when the sun shines on them and warms them for the first time since they left Rivendell. Knowing that Gollum loathes and fears the sun, we might assume he was driven away from the Ring out of desperation, and sought the 'roots' of the mountains (just as he did when he first got the Ring) while the Company was attempting the pass of Caradhras. How did he pass the doors of the West Gate? Another puzzler. My only guess is that he was desperate for fresh fruit by then, and much as stranded prospectors in the Old West are said to have gasped "Water! water!" as they crawled across the salt pans, so Gollum may have crawled up to the giant holly trees croaking "Melon! melon!" and - much to his surprise, no doubt - opened the doors by accident. It's all theory, of course, but that's what the Reading Room is for! As I recall the earlier drafts for the Gates of Moria chapter included a mention of a second set of gates elsewhere, though when the chapter is finalized the second set are not spoken of any longer and we can assume that they have been excised from the lore all together.
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Weed
The Shire
Jun 4 2015, 3:51am
Post #16 of 17
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Gollum was looking for a Hood after his time in Wilderland!
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Beleg Strongbow Cuthalion
Bree
Jun 9 2015, 3:28pm
Post #17 of 17
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I'm pretty sure he was following the Company. At least Tolkien implied that, with Gollum turning up in Lothlorien as well. =) Sorry for the late reply!!!!
~"Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. So do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us.” ― Gandalf the Grey~
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