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Question about Sauron.
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Adrianna
Lorien


May 26 2015, 12:49am

Post #1 of 43 (3199 views)
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Question about Sauron. Can't Post

I have a question to ask.

It's about Sauron.

I done a little research online about him. And I was wondering throughout the Hobbits and LOTR trilogy. I noticed he rarely takes physically form. Why is that? Did it have something to do with the ring? He was an eye. What is the significance of him being an eye? Did it mean he was just watching out for the ring? Or something else? So he only existed because of the ring? And the ring was his life force? Once the ring was destroyed that was it?

I have not gotten my hands on the books to start reading yet but as soon I I do i will start reading.

"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."


Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


May 26 2015, 12:57am

Post #2 of 43 (3155 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

He wasn't an eye in the books, that was only a symbol and also a metaphor in some parts. He wandered around as a spirit, and his physical form was lost after the Battle of the Last Alliance. It doesn't really say if Sauron had a form, but the eye was undoubtedly his symbol, though the eye may have only been a metaphor. However, Gollum did claim to see his hand, so he may have had one.

"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."


Adrianna
Lorien


May 26 2015, 1:11am

Post #3 of 43 (3142 views)
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Thanks, so [In reply to] Can't Post

 
he had the ring made before he lost is physical form?

And So the ring was what was keeping him alive?

"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."


Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


May 26 2015, 1:16am

Post #4 of 43 (3136 views)
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Yeah, [In reply to] Can't Post

he made the ring before he was defeated (which is also in the FOTR Movie Prologue, you could also try and find information there, but a few characters are changed around).

Yes, and no. The ring is what caused him to rise again, but I believe it is said that Sauron had no place to go when he was defeated, he had lost all his power, and became just a lonely wandering spirit. I might be wrong about this, I read this off Wikipedia awhile ago, I might have to pick up some of JRRT's books again.

"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."


Adrianna
Lorien


May 26 2015, 1:25am

Post #5 of 43 (3132 views)
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What a miserable life he had? [In reply to] Can't Post

Oh I forgot to ask about the elves. They are connected to the ring also because they had it made for him under deception? And there fate was also sealed when the ring was destroyed?

"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 26 2015, 1:56am

Post #6 of 43 (3129 views)
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The Three Elven Rings [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Oh I forgot to ask about the elves. They are connected to the ring also because they had it made for him under deception? And there fate was also sealed when the ring was destroyed?


Celembrimbor made the Three Elven Rings without Sauron's knowledge. But they were still connected to the One Ring by the Lore that Sauron shared with the Elves. The elven realms of Lothlorien and Rivendell were preserved by the powers of the Rings held by Elrond and Galadriel. When the One was destroyed the power of the other Three was broken. That was way that the fate of the Elves was tied to Sauron.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Adrianna
Lorien


May 26 2015, 2:04am

Post #7 of 43 (3124 views)
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The end! [In reply to] Can't Post

So when the ring was destroyed did Sauron go back to being a wandering spirit or pretty much game over for him?

I mean it would have to be or he would continued writing more stories?

"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."


Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


May 26 2015, 2:22am

Post #8 of 43 (3116 views)
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Both! [In reply to] Can't Post

He both was a wandering spirit and game over. He was too weak to do anything, and his spirit had no where to go. If you like Sauron, you should also research Morgoth/Melkor. He's was the original Dark Lord, who Sauron was only a servant (Lieutenant to be exact) to. Morgoth supposively comes back in Dagor Dagorath, or the Prophecy of the Ending of Arda (The World Middle-Earth is a region in).

"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."


Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 26 2015, 3:29am

Post #9 of 43 (3104 views)
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Not sure if it’s been made clear [In reply to] Can't Post

Sauron had a pleasing form during the making of the Nine and the Seven.

Sauron alone made The One Ring to rule the Nine and the Seven; Celebrimbor alone made The Three without Sauron’s knowledge. Celebrimbor became aware of Sauron’s making of The One and hid the Three Elven Rings.

As Otaku has explained the loss of The One made the Three powerless.
Thus as long as The One existed The Three had their power of preservation, building, healing, etc. When The One was destroyed the Three lost their power. Thus any incidence was distressing for the Elves.

Also of interest, Sauron had great power even without The One in his possession and would likely have won the War of the Ring if not for The Ring’s destruction. If Sauron got his ‘hands’ on The One his triumph would have been swift and complete.



Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 26 2015, 8:03am

Post #10 of 43 (3093 views)
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He was a powerful spirit... [In reply to] Can't Post

...a disciple of Morgoth, who in Tolkien's mythology is a Satan-like figure. At this time, Morgoth has been imprisoned and permanently exiled "into the void". But Sauron remains. For many years he appeared in a body like a beautiful Elf. He taught Celebrimbor and the Elves to make the Rings of Power, although as Otaku-Sempai says above, Celebrimbor made the Elven Rings without Sauron's knowledge or participation. When he found out about the Elven Rings, and the Elves found out about The One Ruling Ring, there was a war. This was long before the the War of the Last Alliance, as shown in LotR Prologue. The history is complicated, but ultimately Sauron came back, was defeated and exiled. Thereafter he was "no longer able to assume a fair form." He was able to see many parts of Middle Earth, in particular the Ring Bearer, but the movie was exaggerating a bit to imply that he was reduced to being an Eye. When Gollum was captured in Mordor and tortured, he reported that Sauron "had but 9 fingers, but that was enough," thus implying some not-so-fair form.








Adrianna
Lorien


May 26 2015, 8:26am

Post #11 of 43 (3086 views)
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Interesting [In reply to] Can't Post

Sounds like this could be put in a movie form on how all of this got started. But we know that wouldn't happen for a long time to come.

I know I would go see that if it ever transpired.

"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 26 2015, 1:53pm

Post #12 of 43 (3068 views)
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A Sauron Movie [In reply to] Can't Post

It might be technically possible to come up with an outline for a movie about Sauron and the Rings of Power based solely on the Appendices. But, so much about Sauron, the Rings, the Rise of Numenor and the Nazgul is detailed in the books Unfinished Tales and The SIlmarillion that I'm not sure such a project should be attempted without the filmrights to those works.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Adrianna
Lorien


May 26 2015, 3:43pm

Post #13 of 43 (3056 views)
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Oh! [In reply to] Can't Post

I would definitely agree!

I just thought it would be cool to have a movie on how it all began.

"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."


the 13th warrior
Rivendell

May 26 2015, 6:08pm

Post #14 of 43 (3049 views)
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Younger Sauron was also a deadly, cunning psychologist..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Adriana, as we are discussing Sauron, we must pay close attention to the fact that before the Fall of Numenor, he was an attractive man to behold, as has been pointed out. But besides a striking physical presence, he had a diabolical mind and was a great mental chess player who could manipulate others to their own destruction.

The greatest King of Numenor Ar-Pharazon in the Second Age actually sailed to Middle Earth with biggest fleet of warships ever seen, went up the Anduin to challenge the might of Mordor and even the powerful Sauron realized he was outmatched and surrendered!!

But Ar-Pharazon made the tragic mistake of taking Sauron prisoner and back in Numenor, the Dark Lord slowly became the King's counselor, controlled his mind--turning him against the Valar and their sacred law that no mortal ever set foot in the Undying Lands. Year in year out, Sauron stoked the king's ego to the point that Ar-Pharazon made the dreadful decision to invade the Blessed Realm. "Great kings take what is their right," he basically hissed into the king's ears, and the Valar destroyed the king and the realm of Numenor for their arrogance and law breaking.

This is pretty mind blowing stuff, very Game of Thrones, to surrender temporarily to your enemy only to get on top of him with dark psychology and make him destroy himself. GOT Baelish and Verys would be proud. Also after Numenor fell, Sauron's body was gone, but his "spirit of hatred borne upon a dark wind" made it back to Middle Earth and revived his empire once again. But his physical form was lost forever.

All this came from book Return of the King, Appendix A, Numenor Kings, other articles, timelines. Great place to check out Tolkien's in depth history and see how his mind worked putting together the classics.

The 13th Warrior, Left Field Caliphate
"from the scroll rooms of Gondor...."


Elthir
Grey Havens

May 26 2015, 9:00pm

Post #15 of 43 (3023 views)
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Sauron had a body in the Third Age [In reply to] Can't Post

Of this I (at least) am certain enough Smile

If one wants to raise evidence from the story, you have Gollum's reference to Sauron's hand. For some this is not certain enough however, and some do not care to let other sources affect their interpretation.

For me it is enough, especially as it agrees with various other things Tolkien said about Sauron in his letters. The idea is, as long as the One existed, Sauron could rebuild his body. Sauron was never a Man but a powerful spirit that could create for himself a physical, destructible body.

He did not need to physically have the One to do this.

Tolkien relates that it took Sauron longer to create his body after the Last Alliance, but he still did it (and it could no longer be fair seeming). After the destruction of the One however, Sauron could not do this.

_____________________________

Here's a few, see Letters of JRR Tolkien for fuller context. Sorry I don't have the letter numbers at the moment, from this cut and paste.

'In the contest with the Palantír Aragorn was the rightful owner. Also the contest took place at a distance, and in a tale which allows the incarnation of great spirits in a physical and destructible form their power must be far greater when actually physically present. Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a Man of more than average stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance.' JRRT

Surely Sauron is the incarnated 'great spirit' referred to here, but yet since he is at a distance during this struggle Aragorn also has this advantage. The Prof writes elsewhere:

'I note your remarks about Sauron. He was always de-bodied when vanquished.' JRRT 1957

That line begins a letter which talks about Sauron's body (the following quote is from the same letter).

' ... It was thus that Sauron appeared in this shape. It is mythologically supposed that when this shape was 'real', that is a physical actuality in the physical world and not a vision transferred from mind to mind, it took some time to build up. It was then destructible like other physical organisms. But that of course did not destroy the spirit, nor dismiss it from the world to which it was bound until the end. After the battle with Gilgalad and Elendil, Sauron took a long while to re-build, longer than he had done after the Downfall of Númenor (I suppose because each building-up used up some of the inherent energy of the spirit, that might be called the 'will' or the effective link between the indestructible mind and being and the realization of its imagination). The impossibility of re-building after the destruction of the Ring, is sufficiently clear 'mythologically' in the present book.' JRRT


I note the impossibility of 're-building' after the 'destruction of the Ring' (not after having lost possession). In LOTR JRRT may have (wisely IMO) kept Sauron mainly 'offstage', but that doesn't mean he was but a spirit or incorporeal. See also Gollum's remark about Sauron's fingers, as mentioned.

'But they were still living on the borders of Myth -- or rather this story exhibits 'myth' passing into History or the Dominion of Men; for of course the Shadow will rise again in a sense (as is clearly foretold by Gandalf), but never again (unless it be before the great End) will an evil daemon be incarnate as a physical enemy; he will direct Men and all the complications of half-evils, ... ' JRRT

Also

'After which the Third Age began, a Twilight Age, a Medium Aevum, the first of the broken and change world; the last of the lingering dominion of visible fully incarnate Elves, and the last also in which Evil assumes a single dominant incarnate shape.' JRRT


(This post was edited by Elthir on May 26 2015, 9:15pm)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 26 2015, 9:24pm

Post #16 of 43 (3016 views)
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Great roundup 13th Warrior [In reply to] Can't Post

An addition would be that Sauron lied to Ar-Pharazon, telling him that everlasting life would belong to whomever possessed the Undying Lands. I believe that this (everlasting life) was Ar-Pharazon’s main reason for breaking the Ban of the Valar.


In Reply To
Also after Numenor fell, Sauron's body was gone, but his "spirit of hatred borne upon a dark wind" made it back to Middle Earth and revived his empire once again. But his physical form was lost forever.

Sauron did have a physical form for a period of time (about 120 years) after the fall of Numenor, but there was no beauty in it. The Downfall was about SA 3319; the One Ring was cut from the hand of Sauron in about 3441. Yes, he was never again to have a pleasing countenance, but must have had a physical form of some kind during the years before the end of the 2nd Age.



Elthir
Grey Havens

May 26 2015, 9:44pm

Post #17 of 43 (3011 views)
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counting the years [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes the Tale of Years confirms that it took Sauron longer to rebuild his body in the Third Age than it had in the Second Age, after the drowning of Numenor (as Tolkien notes in Letters).

But if you take long-er to get somewhere... you still get there Smile

Note also the context of my first citation (elsewhere in this thread): Third Age, the struggle with Aragorn: Sauron is incarnated by then but not physically present with Aragorn... not in the same room for example, and even very far away actually, distance-wise...

... but had he been in the same room I'm guessing it would have been a bit ungood, even if with respect to a seeing-stone struggle!

Wink


Adrianna
Lorien


May 27 2015, 1:00am

Post #18 of 43 (2990 views)
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Pretty [In reply to] Can't Post

Impressive. No wonder why everybody was in a hurry to get rid of the One ring. If he would have gotten an hold of it. Game over for everybody. Or could he still have been defeated ? Would it have taken all of middle earth to defeat him?

And that's another thing how come the ring keeps getting lost? Was it trying to avoid Sauron? I mean you would think it would want to get back to it's master but it keeps getting lost and into other hands. I think that ring had a mind of it's own.

"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 27 2015, 1:35am

Post #19 of 43 (2988 views)
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They did it once... [In reply to] Can't Post

As recounted above, the Numenorians came with such an overwhelming force that he surrendered. And the Last Alliance armies were actually doing pretty well against him before Elendil cut the Ring off his hand.

But Numenor is long gone, and the strength of the West has been declining for many years, while Third Age Sauron seems stronger than ever.

Whether and to what extent the Ring is sentient is a matter for debate. It does seem to have volition, but that is probably in response to commands from its Lord, rather than any independent volition. It "gets lost" when a current owner doesn't seem compliant or useful. Isildur was taking it to Rivendell, which was not good from its perspective, and Gollum had proven useless, living in a cave all those years..








dreamflower
Lorien

May 27 2015, 2:12am

Post #20 of 43 (2978 views)
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The Ring's lack of power [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
And that's another thing how come the ring keeps getting lost? Was it trying to avoid Sauron? I mean you would think it would want to get back to it's master but it keeps getting lost and into other hands. I think that ring had a mind of it's own.


It was trying to get back to Sauron. But it kept getting thwarted by hobbits. Smeagol found it, and instead of taking it to Sauron he became Gollum, and hid out for 500 years in a cave. So it leaves him, perhaps in the hope of being found by an Orc. Instead, it was found by Bilbo, who had no interest in power, and took it back to the Shire for sixty years, then passing it on to Frodo. When Sam got it, it couldn't tempt him to hold on to it.

We are told by Gandalf that "Bilbo was meant to find the Ring, and not by its maker". In other words, it's quite likely that the hand of Eru was behind Bilbo finding the Ring. But JRRT only hints, he never says it outright.

But the Ring often failed in tempting people to take it.

Some people call it fanfiction. I call it story-internal literary criticism.


Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 27 2015, 2:35am

Post #21 of 43 (2971 views)
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Would they have done it a second time? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
They did it once… As recounted above, the Numenorians came with such an overwhelming force that he surrendered. And the Last Alliance armies were actually doing pretty well against him before Elendil [typo – Isildur] cut the Ring off his hand.


Quote
Imrahil: ‘Surely,’ he cried, ‘ this is the greatest jest in all the history of Gondor: that we should ride with seven thousands, scarce as many as the vanguard of its army in the days of its power. . .’
–The Last Debate


Quote
The men of the West were trapped, and soon, all about the grey mounds where they stood, forces ten times and more than ten times their match would ring them in a sea of enemies.

And out of the gathering mirk the Nazgul came with their cold voices crying words of death; and then all hope was quenched.

…roaring like beasts, a great company of hill-trolls out of Gorgoroth . . . Like a storm they broke upon the line of the men of Gondor . . .

-The Black Gate Opens


IMO the Army of the West would have been destroyed if not for the destruction of The Ring (or divine intervention). Then Gondor (having lost its best), and on to Rohan, etc., saving Lorien and Rivendell for last when his power and forces would be at their zenith.

There was no deus ex machina in this battle before the Morannon as the Eagles arrived after the destruction of the Ring, and their only use here seems to be the rescue of Frodo and Sam.

Thus Sauron would have reigned supreme over Middle-earth had The Ring not been destroyed, and as Elizabeth noted the strength of the West had been in decline for many years while Sauron’s power is expanding even sans Ring.



Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 27 2015, 4:17am

Post #22 of 43 (2949 views)
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Not the Men of the West. [In reply to] Can't Post

As you note, that army wouldn't have stood a chance. They were, however, completely successful in its main strategy, to distract the Enemy long enough for Frodo's mission to succeed.

The Last Alliance, however, was holding its own, and had laid siege to Barad-dûr for several years.








Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 27 2015, 1:09pm

Post #23 of 43 (2917 views)
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All agreed [In reply to] Can't Post

The strategy was to distract the Enemy, and it worked! The Ring was destroyed.

The Last Alliance (3000 yrs. earlier), although victorious for the Eldar and Edain was fruitless in the end as The Ring was not destroyed.

Thus we could suppose the final battle before the Morannon was an inevitable continuation of the Last Alliance, although there were a very few Elves involved.

So, my supposition stands. If The Ring hadn’t been destroyed “Would they have done it a second time?" (defeated Sauron).

Doubtful!



Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

May 27 2015, 5:28pm

Post #24 of 43 (2901 views)
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''Very few elves'' [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't remember from the book, but wasn't Legolas the only elf at the Battle of Morannon?

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 27 2015, 5:32pm

Post #25 of 43 (2898 views)
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The Grey Company? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
I don't remember from the book, but wasn't Legolas the only elf at the Battle of Morannon?


Were the Elves of the Grey Company (including Elrond's sons) present, at least in the book?

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

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