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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Main:
Question about Sauron.
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Ereinion Nénharma
Lorien

May 27 2015, 5:34pm

Post #26 of 43 (706 views)
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Ah, yes...could well be... [In reply to] Can't Post

...I forgot about them.

''Do not fear the shadows, for seeing them means light is near...''


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 27 2015, 5:43pm

Post #27 of 43 (704 views)
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Only two elves in the Grey Company... [In reply to] Can't Post

Elrond's sons. I don't think we know if they went, but we assume they survived the Pelennor, although Halbarad did not.








BlackFox
Half-elven


May 27 2015, 6:17pm

Post #28 of 43 (698 views)
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We do know [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Legolas and Gimli were to ride again together in the company of Aragorn and Gandalf, who went in the van with the Dúnedain and the sons of Elrond.
- The Black Gate Opens, ROTK




Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 27 2015, 6:23pm

Post #29 of 43 (695 views)
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Of course... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thank you for the reminder, Elizabeth. Most of the Grey Company was comprised of Rangers of the North.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


the 13th warrior
Rivendell

May 27 2015, 7:30pm

Post #30 of 43 (697 views)
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Would Sauron find it convenient to morph into different forms of physicality?? [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Bracegirdle, thanks for feedback. All this chat makes me think about just how solid a physical presence our local neighborhood Dark Lord could muster? LOTR movies do interesting things with the Nine, Black Riders/wraiths. To Frodo's eyes with ring on, they have faces, pale kinda like vampires. But others with no ring vision, at weathertop, other places, just see a hooded shape with darkness where a face should go. Arwen at the Ford, again, they have enough shape to ride and hold swords. Not totally body, not totally spirit--in Hobbit they swirl around like mist, but go solid enough to fight Radagast and later, White Council swat team.

I believe Sauron has some telepathy skills, telling Frodo to put on ring on amon hen, from a great distance. Saruman also went "mind to mind" with Gandalf at Caradhras. Sauron maybe went telepathic with the Nine and others higher up on the black magic/psychic scale. But he might want to tell Orc commanders what to do, maybe even personally if he were displeased. Put fear of the Dark Lord in those orcs, who may have limited brain capacity compared to the Nine. Only yelling at them works?? Perhaps a shadowy shape in a cloak with a red eye in the dark under the hood in a creepy throne room would be the ticket.

Or perhaps he only gave orders to underlings who told the orcs/others what to do. Interesting stuff.

The 13th Warrior, Left Field Caliphate
"From the scroll rooms of Gondor...."


Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 27 2015, 8:02pm

Post #31 of 43 (692 views)
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Yes the bro’s were there [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
’But in the front towards Mordor where the first bitter assault would come there stood the sons of Elrond on the left with Dunedain about them, and on the right the Prince Imrahil with the men of Dol Amroth tall and fair . . .’
-The Black Gate Opens


So we know that Elladan and Elrohir were there making it a few (very few) Elves at this battle although I don’t find textual evidence that the other Elves of the Grey Co. were there, but a silver penny says “Yes”!

And wasn’t Imrahil of Elvish descent?



Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 27 2015, 8:22pm

Post #32 of 43 (688 views)
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Opps, Elizabeth is right – [In reply to] Can't Post

 
I think.

and I posted missing page 2

The brothers were the only Elves in the Grey Co.

*ducks into smial* Blush



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 27 2015, 8:36pm

Post #33 of 43 (683 views)
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1 Elf; 2 Peredhil [In reply to] Can't Post

If we want to spit heirs (so to speak) there was only one Elf in the Grey Company: Legolas. Elladan and Elrohir were Peredhil (Half-elven).

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 27 2015, 9:16pm

Post #34 of 43 (674 views)
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Yeah, I thought of that - Honest... [In reply to] Can't Post

The brothers were but 78.125% Elf.

But who's counting. . .WinkWink

I just wish they'd hurry up and make "The Choice"! Smile

I just didn't want to start THAT up again! PiratePirate



Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 27 2015, 9:31pm

Post #35 of 43 (671 views)
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And you're right [In reply to] Can't Post

Legolas WAS part of the Grey Company.

It is mentioned (Grey Company) just before they each reach Erech.
- Passing of the Grey Company

I had in the back of my head that the Grey Company was simply Halbarad, 30 Rangers, and the two brothers. But NO! It continues to be the Grey Company....

I knew better!! Angelic



Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 27 2015, 10:22pm

Post #36 of 43 (674 views)
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Ok 13th W. I'm not much into the trivia of the films - but [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
For they did not move or speak with mouth, {Celeborn, Galadriel, Gandalf, Elrond}, looking from mind to mind; and only their shining eyes stirred and kindled as their thoughts went to and fro.
-RotK, Many Partings

So there was a type of telepathy of sympathetic minds of Middle-earth. I think that this ability is limited to Elven-kind, and Maiar (yes, Valar too of course, but they don’t come into the part of the tale we’re talking about). Yes, Sauron being a Maia could likely be telepathic, or possibly not after his traitorous behavior.

So the question is could Sauron ‘send’ messages to the Nazgul? Possibly.
Could he telepathically send commands to his orc chieftains? Seems doubtful.

Did he coax Frodo to put The Ring on on Amon Hen? That’s a tough one as Frodo was the Ring Bearer and Sauron may have had some telepathic link with the Bearer (or The Ring itself). It does seem that Sauron knew a very approximate location of The Ring as his “Eye” roved the hill to and fro. But Frodo DID have a good reasonable reason for putting The Ring on. Sneakin' away.


Quote
Then as a flash from some other point of power there came to his mind another thought: “Take it off! Take it off! Fool, take it off! Take off the Ring!”

And it does though appear that Gandalf was able to send this warning to Frodo from a distance.

Interesting to ponder… Smile



Adrianna
Lorien


May 28 2015, 12:32am

Post #37 of 43 (661 views)
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Well, [In reply to] Can't Post

If he lost his physical form. How was he going to be able to wear the ring? Was it strong enough to give him a form? Or was one of the nine going to wear it for him.

So major of the key elves were around when Sauron was causing havoc before Hobbits and LOTR?

"I did free him. I freed his wretched head from his miserable shoulders."


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 28 2015, 5:38am

Post #38 of 43 (656 views)
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The Amon Hen stuff was in the book, not the movie. [In reply to] Can't Post

In the book there was the "duel" between Sauron/Ring and Gandalf. At that point in the movie there was a brief (and rather nice) scene between Frodo and Aragorn, in which Frodo was afraid Aragorn would try as Boromir just had, and Aragorn declined, recognizing that Frodo had to leave the Company.








the 13th warrior
Rivendell

May 28 2015, 7:15am

Post #39 of 43 (654 views)
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Let's steal from Star Wars..... [In reply to] Can't Post

Hello Bracegirdle, on the lighter side of all this heavy duty analysis,

An orc commander screws up a big military assignment, so Gothmog, the Barad Dur Lt. takes him to the Dark Tower:

"you must explain this mishap to the Dark Lord himself. And remember, the Dark Lord is not as forgiving as I am...."

Later, Sauron blows the orc's head open with a lightning blast:

"apologies accepted, capt. shagrat...."

couldn't resist, regards,

The 13th Warrior, Left Field Caliphate
"From the scroll rooms of Gondor....."


Elthir
Grey Havens

May 28 2015, 11:40am

Post #40 of 43 (642 views)
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He lost it but kept regaining it... [In reply to] Can't Post

... he had a body in the Third Age, and so could wear nine rings at a time, if he chose to Smile

As I illustrated from Tolkien's letters (unless you have a different interpretation of these statements), Sauron rebuilt his body in the Third Age (it just took him longer than it had in the Second Age), and the Dark Lord was incarnate by the time he struggled with Aragorn through the seeing stone (sorry I can't spell palantir).

I think he was fully incarnate before this in any case, at least by the time he openly declared himself.

Again, a quick look at the timeline (compared to Tolkien's statement that it took Sauron longer to rebuild his body after the Last Alliance, thus the Third Age): one can note how relatively quickly Sauron is overthrown after Númenor fell (somewhere under 200 years) -- he's out fighting his enemies at the Last Alliance by this time, notably Elendil and Gil-galad...

... compared to the number of years that went by in the Third Age before the following things are recorded: (about this time) a shadow falls on Greenwood (1,050), and the wise discover that an 'evil power' had made a stronghold at Dol Guldur (c. 1,100), thought to be one of the Nazgûl -- the power of Dol Guldur 'grows' (2,060), the Wise fear that it may be Sauron taking shape again. Sauron returns with increased strength to Dol Guldur (2,460) and etc ... Sauron openly declared himself in the Third Age (2,951) for example.

Of The Rings Of Power And The Third Age attests to 'many long years' as well, after the overthrow by Gil-galad and Elendil: ' ... and his spirit fled far away and hid in waste places; and he took no visible shape again for many long years.'

Wouldn't that be an odd thing to say if Sauron "never" took visible shape again? Gandalf goes to Dol Guldur: 'True alas, is our guess. This is not one of the Ulairi, as many have long supposed. It is Sauron himself who has taken shape again and now grows apace; and he is gathering all the Rings to his hand; ...'

Now I can't say with certainty exactly when Sauron was 'physical' again, but we do know that it was after Sauron had declared himself that he captured Gollum, who described Sauron's fingers.



It all fits, Tolkien can be seen to change his mind a lot, but with respect to a physical Sauron in the Third Age, I think he is quite consistent. Only The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit had been published when Tolkien explained (in 1957) to a reader that Sauron was "always" de-bodied when vanquished.

Always... including in the Third Age. In the book that reader had just read, Sauron was vanquished Smile

It also, in my opinion, fits with Tolkien's representation of Evil as a lord. Morgoth (Sauron's former master) incarnated himself permanently, and Sauron incarnates himself after every "de-bodying".

The problem is that some equate loss of the One with inability to self-incarnate, but Sauron is no mortal and his spirit remains in the world when his body is slain. That spirit still has power and can slowly rebuild a physical body, and Tolkien says that it is after the destruction of the One rather (not its loss), that he cannot rebuild.


(This post was edited by Elthir on May 28 2015, 11:54am)


Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 28 2015, 2:12pm

Post #41 of 43 (625 views)
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My post was unclear? [In reply to] Can't Post

It was BOOK, Book, book, I say!

Just an attempt to explain my feelings to 13th Warrior about telepathy in Middle-earth.

Frodo’s real reason for leaving the Company – Not fear of (movie) Aragorn, but an unselfish heroic decision, after the “duel” between Sauron and Gandalf and the encounter with Boromir . . .

Quote
’I will do now what I must,’ he said. ‘This at least is plain: the evil of the Ring is already at work even in the Company, and the ring must leave them before it does more harm. I will go alone. Some I cannot trust, and those I can trust are too dear to me; . . . I will go alone. At once.’
-FotR, Breaking of the Fellowship

I don’t care for “rather nice” inaccurate movie scenes that did not take place in the Books. Totally out of character for both Frodo and Aragorn as Aragorn had plenty of opportunity to seize the Ring (starting way back at Butterbur’s), and by this time Frodo’s trust and love of Aragorn must have been complete. (Book, book, book! I say!)

Can we not, (or should we?) in kindness and patience, attempt to steer the moviegoers to the truth of the books?



Hamfast Gamgee
Grey Havens

May 28 2015, 10:35pm

Post #42 of 43 (607 views)
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Why does everyone believe [In reply to] Can't Post

What poor little Smeagol says? I actually think it highly unlikely that Sauron personally tortured Smeagol. I think it is at least possible that Smeagol got it wrong and was in fact tortured by someone like the Mouth of Sauron. Remember that Smeagol was someone that believed that he had escaped from Mordor all by himself, a slightly unreliable witness at best I would argue!


squire
Half-elven


May 29 2015, 12:03am

Post #43 of 43 (601 views)
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We aren't believing Gollum; we're believing Tolkien [In reply to] Can't Post

It comes from how Tolkien tells his stories. Yes, he's into tale-telling and internal narratives. But he plays his stories-within-stories straight, unlike more modern writers: when there's an unreliable witness, Tolkien tells us or suggests to us that he's unreliable. We are told to doubt Gollum's account of his escape from Mordor, but we are not told to doubt his anecdote about being tortured by - or in the presence of - Sauron. Nothing in the text suggests Gollum is lying, and he is not a pathological liar. Almost everything he says is true, though filtered through his damaged personality. His lies are lies of omission.

Furthermore, as to this specific report, I think Tolkien really wanted us to get the connection between Sauron only having nine fingers, and Frodo ending up with nine fingers. This scene (Gollum's eyewitness report) gives us that, which I think is even more reason not to doubt, not Gollum, but Tolkien.



squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary


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