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**Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two chapter discussion ** 'The Mirror of Galadriel' **
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Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 3 2015, 4:15pm

Post #76 of 88 (2112 views)
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The making of the Ring-bearer [In reply to] Can't Post

Just guessing, how often do you think Galadriel invokes the power of the Mirror? Weekly, yearly, once every 100 years?

Wifey invokes the power of her tarot cards every time she has a problem she feels she needs guidance about, maybe about once every month or two.


Who does she share it with--Gandalf, I'll warrant, but anyone else?

Wifey never shares her tarot cards with anyone else. She says someone else’s touch messes up the vibes. I suppose Galadriel might do some readings for Gandalf, but I’d think Olórin would do his own divinations using oneiromancy, or perhaps, as the wielder of Narya, pyromancy.


Her Uncle Feanor reputedly fashioned the palantiri--do you think they inspired her Mirror? She is a Noldo, and they love making things.

Perhaps, but most preparation to use a mirror for divination involves mental ritual.


One of things Tolkien is opposed to is dominion for dominion's sake, which makes me think he's saying here that the Mirror is most beneficial when left to its own devices rather than following commands. So the Mirror has agency? Or is it some expression of Galadriel's thought/spirit and amped up by the power of Nenya, not only the Ring of Water but a ring meant to increase understanding. (And preservation of things unstained, which is Lorien.)

A diviner is basically a reporter sitting at the intersection of heaven, earth, and the underworld. They use some means (water, fire, birds, intestines, etc.) to observe the currents and report on what they see. Since a diviner may allow their own bias to enter into their interpretation, the best diviners allow the querent into the process as much as possible. For example have the querent shuffle the cards, pour the water, light the fire, form the question in their own minds without telling the diviner, and so on.

Note a diviner is different from an oracle. An oracle has no agency as the divine speaks directly through them.


The hobbits are warned not to touch the water. What do you think happens if they do? Is the Mirror a portal that they could fall through, or would touching the water merely break the spell?

It would contaminate the water. Note a “virgin” mirror makes the best divination tool. That’s why Galadriel fills the basin with water before every reading: to provide an entirely new mirror.


Galadriel again refuses to advise Frodo to look, but then practically taunts him into doing so: "Yet I think, Frodo, that you have courage and wisdom enough for the venture, or I would not have brought you here." Why doesn't she just say what's clearly in her mind: "Yes, I brought you here to look so that you would find beneficial visions for the rest of your quest, so look, look, look!"

It must be his choice. If he refuses to look, then he probably wasn’t intended to.


How do the visions affect Sam and Frodo?

This is Sam’s second temptation to leave Frodo. Of course by his last temptation we see he was never really tempted at all, but merely subjected to tests of “the grain of his nature”:

"I've made up my mind," he kept saying to himself. But he had not. Though he had done his best to think it out, what he was doing was altogether against the grain of his nature.
-The Choices of Master Samwise


I see less change in Sam, but Frodo can suddenly see Galadriel's hidden Nenya, which he never noticed before, and Sam can't see it. My gut tells me that this is a major turning point for the characters involved and the story as a whole, a before the Mirror/after the Mirror watershed.

Indeed!

`Yes,' she said, divining his thought, `it is not permitted to speak of it, and Elrond could not do so. But it cannot be hidden from the Ring-bearer…'

That is, before Frodo was merely a ring-bearer. Only now is Frodo truly *the* Ring-bearer!


Frodo is more resolved than ever to complete his quest, and he has new powers of discernment and empathy. Would Frodo have interacted with Gollum and Faramir so skillfully without this added insight?

I think it’s more that before he was merely a little hobbit who just happened to be carrying the Ring. But now he has the full authority of Ring-bearer. That authority is what allows him to dominate Gollum and impress Faramir.


In such a taut atmosphere, Galadriel tells Frodo: "For the fate of Lothlórien you are not answerable, but only for the doing of your own task." Isn't that high-minded of her?

It is of course a reminder that every action has consequences both good and bad, and in the end one can only strive for the common good:

Do not by retiring apart live alone as if you were already made righteous, but come together and seek out the common good.
-Barnabas 4:10


Because she knows that if he succeeds at doing his task, he'll destroy Lorien, but she doesn't begrudge him that. How many other characters in the book would be so forgiving?

Sam, who has just seen the destruction of the Shire, immediately comes to mind.


Would you expect Denethor and Celeborn to be that high-minded?

They both seem to prefer to retiring apart alone as if they were already made righteous rather than coming together to seek out the common good.


I still read that and think, "Wow!!! Did that just happen?" I feel like the whole world's fate was in the balance right there, and it could have gone either way. Did that foolish hobbit know what kind of powers he was releasing?

Frodo seems to have already determined Galadriel’s quality, and thus knew she would remain true to herself above all else.


What role did the One Ring play in this: was this all the pent-up ambitions of Galadriel on display, or did the Ring collude with her and give her this enhanced vision of splendor the way it later tried to trick Sam into thinking he'd be Hero-Gardener-Savior of Mordor?

I think it over stepped itself.


What do you think ultimately saved Galadriel in this horrible moral crossroads of temptation? (is that karma striking back at her?) I'm never sure myself. Was it some innate humility that asserted itself, or her great wisdom, or some deep moral revulsion to becoming a Sauron clone, or something else?

Pride. Her sense of self. I think Galadriel was too proud to abandon herself (or rather, her self) to become Mistress of the Ring, and on the opposite end of the ego spectrum Sam was too humble to take the Ring’s visions of grandeur seriously. The Ring pretty much was totally clueless about the vulnerabilities of both of its potential victims.


And my reason for thinking this is a watershed moment comes from Galadriel's observation: ‘Let us return!’ she said. ‘In the morning you must depart, for now we have chosen, and the tides of fate are flowing.’ It seems that in this timeless land, time and fate were suspended until both Frodo and Galadriel could make these profound choices that would dictate the future of the world. Now the tides of fate are flowing again, uncorked, and they're being swept along by them. (Which is rather sad, but so much about Elves is sad.)

This seems to show that Galadriel has finally given up on keeping Lothlorien timeless, and released the dam holding back time.


The chapter ends with Tolkien once again speaking through Galadriel on the nature of Good doing evil by trying too dang hard, when Sam urges her to take the One Ring and set things right: "‘I would,’ she said. ‘That is how it would begin. But it would not stop with that, alas!"

One of course is reminded of applicability, especially of what David Lloyd George reputedly said about WWI: “This war, like the next war, is a war to end war."


There's a lot I didn't cover--this chapter is so rich in detail and wonderful quotes! Please feel free to branch off in any direction of discussion your heart desires. (And remember, Galadriel knows what your heart desires.)

I wonder if lembas would make a great pie crust?

******************************************

I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 3 2015, 4:34pm

Post #77 of 88 (2104 views)
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The virtue of pride, and the sin of humility [In reply to] Can't Post

Just kidding about that, but you got me thinking with your interpretation:


Quote
What do you think ultimately saved Galadriel in this horrible moral crossroads of temptation? (is that karma striking back at her?) I'm never sure myself. Was it some innate humility that asserted itself, or her great wisdom, or some deep moral revulsion to becoming a Sauron clone, or something else?

Pride. Her sense of self. I think Galadriel was too proud to abandon herself (or rather, her self) to become Mistress of the Ring, and on the opposite end of the ego spectrum Sam was too humble to take the Ring’s visions of grandeur seriously. The Ring pretty much was totally clueless about the vulnerabilities of both of its potential victims.


So pride saved her? Usually pride causes nothing but trouble for Tolkien's characters, though I'm not disagreeing with you. It's interesting to think that she was so sure of her self, her greatness, and her lineage, that she wasn't going to ultimately bow to the power of the One Ring. She still wanted to be in control of her destiny, whatever that was, even dwindling to a rustic folk, etc.


Darkstone
Immortal


Jun 3 2015, 5:10pm

Post #78 of 88 (2103 views)
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Yep [In reply to] Can't Post

She was proud, strong, and self-willed, as were all the descendants of Finwë save Finarfin...
-Unfinished Tales, The History of Galadriel and Celeborn

Pride still moved her when, at the end of the Elder Days after the final overthrow of Morgoth, she refused the pardon of the Valar for all who had fought against him, and remained in Middle-earth.
-ibid

'How otherwise can it be for the Eldar, if they cling to Middle-earth?" said Celebrimbor. "Will you then pass over Sea?'
’Nay’ she said ’Angrod is gone, and Aegnor is gone, and Felagund is no more. Of Finarfin’s children I am the last. But my heart is still proud.'

-ibid

******************************************

I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


Nerven
Rivendell

Jun 3 2015, 8:13pm

Post #79 of 88 (2090 views)
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pride [In reply to] Can't Post

I think it has more to do with self-confidence. She always thought that the most important thing is to be mighty and to rule, but at the end she realized what really matteres. (family, home etc.)


Quote
it was Galadriel's abnegation of pride and trust in her own powers, and her absolute refusal of any unlawful enhancement of them, ...

Of Dwarves And Men (unfinished tales)

I think it was the longing for her home and the tiny bit hope she had, that she could return, that made her deny the ring, for she must have been aware, that if she would accept the offer the door would really be closed forever

So at the end she overcame her pride.


sador
Half-elven


Jun 4 2015, 3:05am

Post #80 of 88 (2080 views)
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As a reply to a Darkstone post, [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought it would be titled 'The virtue of pie'.

Then I read his post, and saw that would have been quite appropriate.


On another note - I have always seen Galadriel as a kind of priestess of Varda; and with such a person, too much humility (or more correctly, the wrong type of humility), can cause one to fail in his/her duty - seeing yourself as irreovacably contaminated, or even damned, by previous sins and errors.

Compare to Graham Greene's The Power and the Glory. Or closer to home, Maedhros and Maglor after the War of Wrath.


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 4 2015, 5:27pm

Post #81 of 88 (2071 views)
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I think I get it... [In reply to] Can't Post

 ...finding a wallet is a test of someone's honesty. Possibly a difficult test, possibly one a habitually honest finder doesn't even notice - there wasn't even an instant in which they considered keeping the money . What do we make of someone saying "Why don't you take out ten dollars - he'll never miss it and anyway think of it as a reward!" Test or temptation? Perhaps it depends on their motivation. Maybe they intend to lure you into dishonesty as part of some programme (e.g. now they can blackmail you that they know you stole money). Or maybe they just want to see what you would do. But what would you think of them after that suggestion? Would it be OK for them to say "Oh, don't worry, I was just testing you"? I think I'd be revising my opinions of a friend who made a suggestion like that. That's the grey area I see Galadriel in...

But lets talk about doughnuts (or donuts)!

So actually it's not really "I'm tempted to eat the leftover doughnuts", it's really "I'm tested to eat the leftover doughnuts".

Unless of course they include the One Doughnut, made by Sauron himself, and which is whispering to you, tempting you to eat it...



Similarly -

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


BlackFox
Half-elven


Jun 4 2015, 6:24pm

Post #82 of 88 (2061 views)
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Did you have this in mind? [In reply to] Can't Post





(This post was edited by BlackFox on Jun 4 2015, 6:25pm)


noWizardme
Half-elven


Jun 4 2015, 6:51pm

Post #83 of 88 (2052 views)
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Don't ...tempt me Blackfox! I would eat this doughnut for good... // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 5 2015, 12:55am

Post #84 of 88 (2039 views)
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That is perfect! I guess people truly think of *everything*! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


CuriousG
Half-elven


Jun 5 2015, 12:56am

Post #85 of 88 (2040 views)
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It would start that way, Wiz, but it wouldn't end there, alas. // [In reply to] Can't Post

 


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2015, 2:24am

Post #86 of 88 (2003 views)
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what did gandalf do to gollum? [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
‘I endured him as long as I could, but the truth was desperately important, and in the end I had to be harsh. I put the fear of fire on him, and wrung the true story out of him, bit by bit, together with much snivelling and snarling."

That's from Gandalf.

When Gollum is telling Frodo and Sam about Minas Ithil, he makes a reference to Sauron missing a finger:

Quote
‘Yes, He has only four on the Black Hand, but they are enough,’ said Gollum shuddering.


So, Gollum tortured by Sauron, or tortured by Gandalf: take your pick. Desperate times and desperate measures, etc.


this passage has always stuck out to me, and has always bothered me, for it sounds as if gandalf was torturing gollum (psychological torture, at least). compare this to a future time when frodo threatens gollum with things like the precious making gollum choke on fish bones.

did gandalf physically torture gollum? or did he just threaten to physically harm gollum?

cheers --

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2015, 2:42am

Post #87 of 88 (2000 views)
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this is an +excellent+ argument that frodo +has+ learned wisdom [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It's a nebulous concept, but Frodo's experience with the Mirror is a definite before/after moment for him where he's never going to be the same again. The concrete evidence of that is he sees Nenya after, but not before, but it's more than that.

Galadriel says that Nenya can't be hidden from someone who's worn the One and seen the Eye. Somehow Frodo's exposure to Sauron's mind, in addition to his witnessing of the tidy synopsis of history that he belonged to, made him a wiser person. Frodo of Bag End had no pity for Gollum, but Frodo post-Mirror not only pities him, but on an otherwise hopeless quest, he even seems to have some small hoping of reforming Gollum. I think that exposure to what I'll call "the Cosmic Significance of Things" gave Frodo enlightenment that he didn't have previously. And then if you flash forward to Saruman at Bag End, Frodo is the only one who understands him, saying,


Quote
'He was great once, of a noble kind that we should not dare to raise our hands against. He is fallen, and his cure is beyond us; but I would still spare him, in the hope that he may find it.’

How did Frodo know so much about Saruman and his past as an Ainu? I suppose one could speculate that Gandalf told him, but why don't the other three hobbits know too since Gandalf the White loosened up so much after Sauron's fall? And Frodo appears to be the only one undaunted by his Voice. My theory is that Frodo had a whole lot of insight that no one else did and he didn't need everything spelled out for him. That's partly from the Mirror, but not wholly, of course--I think it was the sum of all his experiences that contributed to the overall effect, but the Mirror was a significant player.

That's Frodo. Is Sam necessarily wiser from the Mirror? In a small way, but just as the One Ring plays of the traits it finds in you and amplifies them, I think the Mirror does the same, and Frodo started out with more smarts to amplify.


this is wonderful, cg.... an excellent proof outlining the wisdom frodo has accrued.... showing a before mirror / after mirror juxtaposition.

so i'm loving exploring your persuasive arguments that frodo has indeed accrued wisdom through his experience with the mirror --- yet i'm still left with... "how"?

i think the "how" in your post is in this lovely analysis of yours....

[ cg ] "...I think that expoure to what I'll call 'the Cosmic Significance of Things' gave Frodo enlightenment that he didn't have previously." [ / cg ]

perhaps it was this.... i think many of us experience similar moments. things are seen with a greater clarity, and their can be a sort of peace that accompanies that experience, as more mundane worries are cast off and fall to one's feet. the trick is (in many cases) to keep that vision in one's mind and heart, as one trudges through the daily muck of everything.

perhaps frodo had a leg up on the scope of his enlightenment, in that he came to lorien as an "elf-friend." pippin and sam were not named specifically so by this point.... so can we assume they also were "elf-friends"? being an elf-friend seems to be a real quality, not just a social nicety. perhaps this aided frodo in gleaning the most out of his exposure to the mirror, as compared to sam -- who loves the elves and is fascinated by them, but was not specifically named "elf-friend."

to your statement about the mirror, here....

[ cg ] "...just as the One Ring plays of[f of] the traits it finds in you and amplifies them, I think the Mirror does the same, and Frodo started out with more smarts to amplify." [ / cg ]

is this the purpose of the mirror? to enlighten? or is that a byproduct? how does galadriel use the mirror? does she let her elven retinue look into it from time to time to increase enlightenment? is the mirror something she generally keeps for herself? what is the purpose of the mirror? does it only amplify wisdom? what would have happened if boromir looked into it?


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo


Maciliel
Valinor


Jun 6 2015, 2:57am

Post #88 of 88 (2000 views)
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tempting vs. testing [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Testing is a chance to show who and what you are. For example, one may test a metal to see if it is gold, but of course one cannot tempt it into becoming lead. (Unless you’re talking about nuclear transmutation, but let’s not talk about nuclear transmutation.)

Tempting is an attempt to corrupt or destroy what you are. Boromir was an honorable warrior, a great leader of Gondor, but the temptation of the Ring threatened to change that, to turn him into a breaker of oaths, and a master (not leader) of Men:

The Ring both tests and tempts Galadriel. It tempts her to abandon her role as Guardian for the role of Ruler:

The Ring also tests her:

That is, Galadriel resists the temptation to become Queen, a role she rejected long ago, and by the test proves who and what she is: She is Galadriel.


So note that Galadriel really didn't tempt the members of the Fellowship, but rather tested them, to find out who and what they were:

That is, Boromir recognized that Galadriel was testing them with a hypothetical to find out their quality, rather than trying to actually tempt them away from the Ringquest with something she had the power to give.

I trust I make myself obscure.


testing and tempting are still quite muddled to me.

i love your metallurgical analogy, but i don't think it quite fits, because the metal does not have agency, whereas our characters do.

i thiink it gets quite muddled because of things like the following.... a test (whatever that is) can invoke temptation in the tested, that otherwise might not have been there.

i don't think it matters that galadriel was invoking scenarios involving things that she did not have the power to give. by asking the question, the mind explores, and may be tempted, even if it does not choose to act on the temptation.

and in order for galadriel's "test" (whatever that means) to be effective, wouldn't it have to have had some weight, to feel "real" somehow, in order to prod the "true nature" of the "testee" up to the surface? what is the value in galadriel "asking the question" if the listener does not feel the choice has some reality? galadriel would not be getting at the truth she was seeking.

galadriel may not have wished (truly) for boromir to abandon the quest and take the ring, but in asking him (in that special way that she did), she was trying to flush out the true nature of boromir by her probing. it doesn't matter that she did or did not have the power to grant whatever she was using as a tool to probe his soul. the temptation is the test, else the questioning would have little value.


cheers ---

.


aka. fili orc-enshield
+++++++++++++++++++
the scene, as i understand it, is exceptionally well-written. fili (in sort of a callback to the scene with the eagles), calls out "thorRIIIIIIN!!!" just as he sees the pale orc veer in for the kill. he picks up the severed arm of an orc which is lying on the ground, swings it up in desperation, effectively blocking the pale orc's blow. and thus, forever after, fili is known as "fili orc-enshield."

this earns him deep respect from his hard-to-please uncle. as well as a hug. kili wipes his boots on the pale orc's glory box. -- maciliel telpemairo

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