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**Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two chapter discussion ** 'The Mirror of Galadriel' **
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CuriousG
Half-elven


May 25 2015, 10:04pm

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**Fellowship of the Ring: Book Two chapter discussion ** 'The Mirror of Galadriel' ** Can't Post

Here we are in another chapter of our LOTR read-through, and all opinions, expert and amateur, are welcome!

This is one of my favorite chapters because we learn so much about Elves, much more than we did in Rivendell, and Galadriel in particular is a fascinating character. Not only that, but we get another view of the bigger picture that Frodo's quest is a part of, as if the Council of Elrond and Shadow of the Past weren't enough--they aren't, if you're a Tolkien fan.

The chapter starts in a slow mode as the Fellowship is still recovering from the loss of Gandalf in Moria and trying to adjust to this "faerieland within faerieland," as Wiz so aptly puts it. There's a brief encounter with Elven royalty, which is uncomfortable at best, then time spent healing over several days. Frodo, always perceptive, eventually feels the time to leave is coming, but still there seems no ground for drama, and he and Sam have a cultural discussion about Elves. Then Galadriel shows up, and the real drama begins, on a small scale with Sam, and on a grander scale with Frodo, who seems to be sucked into a horrible Eye in her Mirror, then the Elf-Lady herself reveals how terrible she would become if she wore the One Ring, which she admits she has long wanted (unlike Elrond and Gandalf, and similar to Saruman).

Caras Galadhon: do you think the movie captured the majesty and fantasy of this city as you picture it in the book? If not, how do you see it differently? Why do you think we're given such a detailed description of it versus Rivendell, where the details are scant? As you approach, are you eager to rush forward, or a little bit afraid? (I always feel the latter, for some reason. The place seems daunting.) And a detail question: how do you picture the walls, when everything is so green and tree-based? Is the wall made out of stone, or trees, or some organic material?


Quote
Upon the further side there rose to a great height a green wall encircling a green hill thronged with mallorn-trees taller than any they had yet seen in all the land.


Colors:
For fun, try to keep track of the colors in this chapter, which are principally green, gold, and silver. Green is obvious enough for a forest, but the gold and silver harken back to the Two Trees of Valinor. The city lamps are gold and silver, and even the Lord and Lady's hair are contrasts in gold and silver. There's a fair amount of white splashed here and there too, a reminder that these are good people.

Hidden people: Are the gates what Sam would call magic, or are the guards just unseen? And why don't we see any pedestrians in the big city, only hear them singing above? Is this supposed to be heaven with angels? Or a traditional fairyland where fairies are heard but not seen?

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Haldir knocked and spoke, and the gates opened soundlessly; but of guards Frodo could see no sign. The travellers passed within, and the gates shut behind them. They were in a deep lane between the ends of the wall, and passing quickly through it they entered the City of the Trees. No folk could they see, nor hear any feet upon the paths; but there were many voices, about them, and in the air above.



CuriousG
Half-elven


May 25 2015, 10:40pm

Post #2 of 88 (5419 views)
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When Elves speak [In reply to] Can't Post

Things start out so well: Celeborn greets them each by name and very politely. Then when he hears about 1) the Balrog being awakened and 2) Gandalf dying, he turns cold on them, negating his previous courtesy and regretting his welcome.
Does this make you sympathize with Gimli and Boromir, who don't trust these Elves?

Could a married couple be any more different? Why do you think Tolkien made them so similar when royal couples in fairy tales are often so similar? Galadriel seems three steps ahead of her hubby at every turn, and they've been married for thousands of years. Hasn't any of her Valinorean wisdom rubbed off on him yet? And she was eager to see Gandalf again because she "much desired to speak with him again." Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall of that conversation?!

Galadriel skillfully rebukes Celeborn while winning over the heart of the Dwarf. Do you think she was being sarcastic when she first calls her husband "Celeborn the Wise" after he's criticized Gandalf? Wouldn't everyone at the royal court cringe? Is she trying to make up for that remark when she goes on to say that he is "accounted the wisest of the Elves of Middle-earth, and a giver of gifts beyond the power of kings." Does that mean he's smarter than her, Elrond, and Cirdan? (*cough, cough*) Okay, maybe he's wiser than Haldir, but really? And take note of who gives out the best gifts in the next chapter. (Hint: not him.) By the end of the chapter, do you think it's a marriage of equals, or are they like bees, where the queen is in charge and the male is around just as a mating drone?

Galadriel comments: "for ere the fall of Nargothrond or Gondolin I passed over the mountains, and together through ages of the world we have fought the long defeat." What does "the long defeat" mean to you? Are these more characters persisting against evil without hope, and does that influence Frodo?

It's fun to watch words come out of her mouth, because no one else seems to talk in her vaulted style: "‘I it was who first summoned the White Council." (Not: "It was I.") Clearly summoning White Councils isn't something Celeborn gets to do, nor does he get to lead them. Why do you think it was Galadriel who summoned it and not Elrond or Cirdan or one of the Wizards? And if she summoned it, why couldn't she lead it if Gandalf said no?

She picks her next words with care, echoing Gildor in the Shire, who was reluctant to counsel Frodo, and similar to Elrond, who, as Wiz pointed out, co-staged the whole Council to set Frodo up to continue as Ring-bearer to Mordor but wouldn't actually tell him to do so. Why is it so important to Tolkien that his Elf-leaders avoid telling people what to do?

Quote
I will not give you counsel, saying do this, or do that. For not in doing or contriving, nor in choosing between this course and another, can I avail; but only in knowing what was and is, and in part also what shall be.



CuriousG
Half-elven


May 25 2015, 10:54pm

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When Elves don't speak but invade your mind [In reply to] Can't Post


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And with that word she held them with her eyes, and in silence looked searchingly at each of them in turn. None save Legolas and Aragorn could long endure her glance. Sam quickly blushed and hung his head. At length the Lady Galadriel released them from her eyes, and she smiled. ... Then they sighed and felt suddenly weary, as those who have been questioned long and deeply, though no words had been spoken openly.

How ethical do you think it is for Galadriel to reach into their minds telepathically and tempt them to turn away from the quest? Isn't that something an evil government would do in science fiction? And note that she is deliberately tempting them with secret desires she seems to uncover in their minds--again, is that right? Isn't it the Devil in Christianity that tempts people with false promises and secret yearnings? Why do I find myself agreeing with Boromir on this issue of the Elves being treacherous when I don't think Tolkien intended that? Or is it all justified because, bereft of Gandalf, the quest really is in peril, and the situation requires some drastic interrogation to see where things are headed for the sake of the entire world?

Does Galadriel herself seem to feel any compunction about her tactics as revealed to her later comment to Frodo at the Mirror? "Gently are you revenged for my testing of your heart at our first meeting."

What do you think the offer was to Frodo?
I personally think it was a free ride back to Rivendell to live happily ever after at Bilbo's side with someone else taking the Ring.

Now that Gandalf is gone, shouldn't Galadriel find a heroic Glorfindel-equivalent, or an armed escort, to get the Company to Gondor's borders? Clearly they are no longer able to travel by stealth--that failed on the other side of the mountains.


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

May 25 2015, 10:55pm

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It's a kind of magic [In reply to] Can't Post

But in the last chapter discussion, magic did come up as a point. And in this chapter Galadriel later says that she does not quite understand what people mean by it. Well, one could argue that having a country set apart from the rest of Middle-Earth is magical. Also using words of power to control doors and things like in Moria is also magical. And having Gandalf return, possibly


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 25 2015, 11:22pm

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Mirror, Mirror [In reply to] Can't Post

On first read, I think I re-read the Mirror sequence of events about four times and still didn't understand everything. So much happens in this dense situation.


Quote
‘Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,’ she answered, ‘and to some I can show what they desire to see. But the Mirror will also show things unbidden, and those are often stranger and more profitable than things which we wish to behold. What you will see, if you leave the Mirror free to work, I cannot tell. For it shows things that were, and things that are, and things that yet may be. But which it is that he sees, even the wisest cannot always tell.

Just guessing, how often do you think Galadriel invokes the power of the Mirror? Weekly, yearly, once every 100 years? Who does she share it with--Gandalf, I'll warrant, but anyone else? Her Uncle Feanor reputedly fashioned the palantiri--do you think they inspired her Mirror? She is a Noldo, and they love making things.

One of things Tolkien is opposed to is dominion for dominion's sake, which makes me think he's saying here that the Mirror is most beneficial when left to its own devices rather than following commands. So the Mirror has agency? Or is it some expression of Galadriel's thought/spirit and amped up by the power of Nenya, not only the Ring of Water but a ring meant to increase understanding. (And preservation of things unstained, which is Lorien.)

The hobbits are warned not to touch the water. What do you think happens if they do? Is the Mirror a portal that they could fall through, or would touching the water merely break the spell?

Galadriel again refuses to advise Frodo to look, but then practically taunts him into doing so: "Yet I think, Frodo, that you have courage and wisdom enough for the venture, or I would not have brought you here." Why doesn't she just say what's clearly in her mind: "Yes, I brought you here to look so that you would find beneficial visions for the rest of your quest, so look, look, look!"

How do the visions affect Sam and Frodo? I see less change in Sam, but Frodo can suddenly see Galadriel's hidden Nenya, which he never noticed before, and Sam can't see it. My gut tells me that this is a major turning point for the characters involved and the story as a whole, a before the Mirror/after the Mirror watershed. Frodo is more resolved than ever to complete his quest, and he has new powers of discernment and empathy. Would Frodo have interacted with Gollum and Faramir so skillfully without this added insight?

In such a taut atmosphere, Galadriel tells Frodo: "For the fate of Lothlórien you are not answerable, but only for the doing of your own task." Isn't that high-minded of her? Because she knows that if he succeeds at doing his task, he'll destroy Lorien, but she doesn't begrudge him that. How many other characters in the book would be so forgiving? Would you expect Denethor and Celeborn to be that high-minded?

Come on, you know you love this passage:

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‘And now at last it comes. You will give me the Ring freely! In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!’

She lifted up her hand and from the ring that she wore there issued a great light that illumined her alone and left all else dark. She stood before Frodo seeming now tall beyond measurement, and beautiful beyond enduring, terrible and worshipful. Then she let her hand fall, and the light faded, and suddenly she laughed again, and lo! she was shrunken: a slender elf-woman, clad in simple white, whose gentle voice was soft and sad.

‘I pass the test,’ she said. ‘I will diminish, and go into the West, and remain Galadriel.’

I still read that and think, "Wow!!! Did that just happen?" I feel like the whole world's fate was in the balance right there, and it could have gone either way. Did that foolish hobbit know what kind of powers he was releasing? What role did the One Ring play in this: was this all the pent-up ambitions of Galadriel on display, or did the Ring collude with her and give her this enhanced vision of splendor the way it later tried to trick Sam into thinking he'd be Hero-Gardener-Savior of Mordor?

What do you think ultimately saved Galadriel in this horrible moral crossroads of temptation? (is that karma striking back at her?) I'm never sure myself. Was it some innate humility that asserted itself, or her great wisdom, or some deep moral revulsion to becoming a Sauron clone, or something else?

And my reason for thinking this is a watershed moment comes from Galadriel's observation: ‘Let us return!’ she said. ‘In the morning you must depart, for now we have chosen, and the tides of fate are flowing.’ It seems that in this timeless land, time and fate were suspended until both Frodo and Galadriel could make these profound choices that would dictate the future of the world. Now the tides of fate are flowing again, uncorked, and they're being swept along by them. (Which is rather sad, but so much about Elves is sad.)

The chapter ends with Tolkien once again speaking through Galadriel on the nature of Good doing evil by trying too dang hard, when Sam urges her to take the One Ring and set things right: "‘I would,’ she said. ‘That is how it would begin. But it would not stop with that, alas!"

There's a lot I didn't cover--this chapter is so rich in detail and wonderful quotes! Please feel free to branch off in any direction of discussion your heart desires. (And remember, Galadriel knows what your heart desires.) Angelic


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 25 2015, 11:30pm

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Contrasts of magic [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for your observations, Hamfast, as spot-on as ever!

I think there's a contrast between Gandalf uttering spells and using words of Command in Moria to close doors and then breaking his staff during a spell, and this different magic in Lorien, which is more of a passive presence that's woven into the environment. It's pretty cool that you can have multiple types of magic in the same book.

And I love the quote that you refer to:

Quote
‘For this is what your folk would call magic, I believe; though I do not understand clearly what they mean ; and they seem to use the same word of the deceits of the Enemy.

Poor Galadriel is baffled by what mortals call magic, and also a little appalled that they don't distinguish between what Elves do and what Sauron does--how could one possibly use the same word for both?!?!? This is also a neat way that Tolkien distinguishes between races in the trilogy, which he does periodically. I see other fantasy books starting off by telling you the differences, then everyone seems to be the same. Not here! And Galadriel's comment further elevates her above the mortals, showing that they live on different planes of understanding with her occupying the higher, more sophisticated ground.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 26 2015, 8:34am

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I think that Galadriel has a linguistic objection here (that the hobbits, as non-practitioners of 'magic' use the M-word to cover too many things).

I wrote much of an intended TORN essay on magic in Middle-earth & why we see so little of it (except in Beren & Luthien). As part of that, I found some interesting stuff in Letters:

There is information about 'magic' in Letter 131, but even more so in Letter 155. Letter 155, written in 1954, is an unsent draft to author & poet Naomi Mitchison, who was also a proof-reader for Lord of the Rings. The whole of the letter explains Tolkien’s ideas on magic, and is long. So I will paraphrase and summarize rather than quote it in its entirety. Obviously that introduces the possibility of mis-interpretation by me, so I'd recommend reading the original if possible!

Tolkien begins “I am afraid I have been far too casual about ‘magic’ and especially the use of the word”. But “a story which, as you so rightly say, is largely about motives (choice, temptations etc.) and the intentions for using whatever is found in the world, could hardly be burdened with a pseudo-philisophic disquisition!” For the purposes of the tale, he goes on to explain there are perhaps two kinds of magic: ‘magia’ produces real effects in the physical world (such as Gandalf’s igniting wet wood); ‘goeteia’ (as I read Tolkien’s comments) seems to be more about illusion. Neither is morally good or bad (in this tale) per se - it depends upon the motive or purpose of use. The Enemy tends to use “magia...to bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and subjugate”. Those are supremely bad motives in a tale that is specifically about domination of other ‘free’ wills. The elves’ goeteia, by contrast is intended as Art - it deceives only accidentally (like someone mistaking a statue for a real person). Magic is, in any form, a rarity - both sides live mostly by “normal means”. [Interpreting here, I think this is because the Enemy likes to accumulate and use non-magical power, and an important theme of the story is that the Wise should not try to match the Enemy power for power.] Magic in this story is not achieved by ‘lore’ or spells: it is an inherent power, and so can’t be possessed by Men. Aragorn is an exception to prove the rule here: his healing might be part magical, and is part not, but then it is supposed to be being reported to us by the hobbits “who have very little notions of philosophy and science”. And , besides, Aragorn has elvish ancestors from whom he could have inherited an inherent or inborn power.


In this discussion of mechanisms and definitions, however, note that Tolkien intends there to be a moral distinction (The Enemy tends to use “magia...to bulldoze both people and things, and his goeteia to terrify and subjugate”. Those are supremely bad motives in a tale that is specifically about domination of other ‘free’ wills). Galadriel, I think is not 'dominating' - but nor is she doing a performance on her mirror as Art and any confusion with reality is the audience's mistake.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 26 2015, 8:45am

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Morally-ambiguous Galadriel [In reply to] Can't Post

Galadriel is, I think, one of several rebuttals in LOTR of the idea that fantasy fiction characters are simplistically Good or Bad.

I think her psychic interrogation of the Fellowship seems very dodgy morally. We quickly get onto "the end justifies the means" territory.

I recently came across an article in the Los Angeles Review of Books whcih I thought put thinks well:


Quote
Admittedly, I come to this as a notorious Orc-sympathizer, but I cannot bring myself to trust Galadriel, as well as the elves more generally. In my view, Galadriel has a rather ambiguous moral character. She is benevolent, to be sure, but her sense of good and evil rests on a dubious foundation, inasmuch as she perceives change itself as undesirable. For those beings who are not entirely satisfied with the status quo, Galadriel’s intentions may not be so noble, and her powers may well seem like forms of dark magic.

In my “Song of Saruman” essay [ http://lareviewofbooks.org/essay/song-saruman ], I suggested that the traitorous White Wizard was really an inverted Galadriel. When she refuses to take up the One Ring, she “passed the test,” whereas Saruman’s desire for power — even if it was for the power to do good — led him to become a Sauron-like villain. But lest we chalk up Galadriel’s noble choice to some inherent beatitude, thus denying how powerful the temptation really was and in turn robbing her of the truly heroic aspect of her refusal, we ought to remember that Galadriel is far more like Saruman, or even Sauron, than most Tolkien enthusiasts care to believe.

Galadriel, Witch-Queen of Lórien by Robert T. Tally Jr. http://lareviewofbooks.org/...itch-queen-of-lorien


Interesting stuff...

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 26 2015, 9:36am

Post #9 of 88 (5385 views)
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Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal... [In reply to] Can't Post

Somewhat building off my posts on other subthreads here, Note the potential for moral dodginess in "Many things I can command the Mirror to reveal,’ she answered, ‘and to some I can show what they desire to see. "

At the least, it seems to me that Galadriel can use her Mirror as a Palantir. That's problematic in itself. Palantiri cannot show things that are nto happpening, but - as we discussed relatively recently that's no guarantee of safety. The palantiri give a user data not insights, and (as is so in Real Life) a person's interpretations of data tend to depend on what they believe already. (I'm remembering that we covered some of this palantiri material in the Unfinished Tales discussions last year:http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=730199#730199 - and especially this subthread http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=730203#730203 )

Possibly Galadriel can go beyond this, & (theoretically) show people stuff that is factual, but deliberately selected so as to influence them in a way she wishes? (This seems to be what Sauron does to the palantir users: Saruman and possibly Denethor.)

Going further, what does '‘and to some I can show what they desire to see' mean? Does it mean that Frodo could ask "show me what Bilbo is doing now?" and Galadriel could make the Mirror accurately comply? (That is, it can only show what Bilbo is actually doing?) Or does 'desire' tip us over into fiction and wish fulfilment, where the Mirror shows what the subject desires to be true, whether it is actually true or not?

'Fact' and Fiction' seem interestingly mixed up here - a slippery slope from wishful interpretation to wish-fulfilment. Further mixed in is that the Mirror can seemingly show 'facts' from other times, or from alternative possible futures, things that are closer to fiction than to fact, but are not exactly either:


Quote
“the Mirror shows many things, and not all have yet come to pass. Some never come to be, unless those that behold the visions turn aside from their path to prevent them. The Mirror is dangerous as a guide to deeds.”


~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 26 2015, 12:40pm

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If Sauron had a Mirror... [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the background info on Tolkien and magic. I often think he didn't really have it charted out in his mind when he wrote and came up with his finer distinctions later.

If Sauron had a Mirror, we can assume it would be all about coercion ("Look into that Mirror, hobbit, or I cut your ears off") and deception and horror, so Frodo would see a lot more Eye and fouling of the Shire and a lot less history about what good people were doing over the Ages. And Sauron would be commanding the Mirror to show things, because he was into the whole command-thing. In that sense, Galadriel would be miffed that anyone used the same word to compare his Mirror to hers.


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 26 2015, 12:47pm

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Galadriel vs Saruman [In reply to] Can't Post

They do have more in common than we'd ordinarily think. They both want power to oppose Sauron and both want to rule for the sake of ruling--that's why she joined Feanor's exodus from Valinor. And they both have spent centuries wondering what they'd do if they got their hands on the One Ring.

Saruman manipulates minds with his Voice, and Galadriel does it with her telepathy. As I noted, I find not only the uninvited intrusion to be disturbing, but the temptation too. And she leaves her subjects tired out, and not in a good way, like they're tired out from a fun party.

OK, so she's "human" and not perfect and can join the crowd. It probably makes her internal struggle to reject the Ring all the more believable and dramatic to know that she has some moral warts to clear up. If she were purely good, there would be no test to pass. She is clearly *mostly* good, and I think that's important. Saruman wasn't evil in the beginning, but he lacked the intropsection and wisdom to chart his own decline. Galadriel was more aware of her weaknesses, which gave her an edge when it mattered.


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 26 2015, 12:58pm

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Command vs. stewardship [In reply to] Can't Post

I think of Galadriel's relationship to her Mirror in the vein of Tolkien commenting on Bombadil and stewardship, that he preferred understanding to controlling, or botany over agriculture. The author's message is that it's better to let things act on their own, and your own role should be to understand rather than manipulate them to your own desires.

Interesting point about commanding the Mirror to show what you want to see. I always take that to mean facts, like your example about what Bilbo is up to. Would she command it to show something unreal but desirable, such as Uncle Fingolfin winning his duel against Melkor, or brother Finrod beating Sauron in his duel? Yet she seems repulsed by "the deceits of the enemy," so I'm not sure if she'd count those visions as harmless dreams and wishful thinking, or as deceits. Those probably aren't good examples, since they are harmless. But I have trouble thinking she'd cross the line and show something truly deceptive.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


May 26 2015, 11:24pm

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Caras Galadhon [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought the brief moment (in the EE) where it was shown from a distance was brilliant, it did match or exceed how I visualized it. I was less fond of how it looked when they were actually in it. We saw it only at night in silvery light. Wjereas I imagined it with a lot more color (than could be seen at night). I really like the line whre Frodo either thinks or says about Lorien that the colors are all the same colors he knows the names of , and yet unlike anything he has seen (paraphrase). SO to e it had to have lots of greens and golds and amazing blue sky peeking through.I also found the slow motion detracted, for me. Though I recognize both were ways to make it seem more "otherworldy" (which is appropriate).

I think the voices in the trees was just a way to stress that yes, the Elves really do live up in the trees. This was probably my favorite worldbuilding detail of the books when I first read them as a young girl - trees so huge you could build a grand dwelling in them. (It never occured to me back then to wonder how many stairs this would involve).

I cannot recall whether there are walkways mentioned up in the trees, but that is what I imagined, that you might not need to come down to get to the other trees.



sador
Half-elven


May 27 2015, 9:34am

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Do you think the movie captured the majesty and fantasy of this city as you picture it in the book?
I am terrible at visualising, so I had no picture whatsoever of the city.
But movie Caras Galadhon didn't seem quite right, for reasons I cannot explain.

Why do you think we're given such a detailed description of it versus Rivendell, where the details are scant?
Once Tolkien decided (in the previous chapter, after crossing the Celebrant and being allowed to see Cerin Amroth) that Lothlorien was the heart of Elvendom in Middle-earth, he works hard to build this impression. This goes with the feeling of Galadriel's power and ambition - and is what will create, ultimately, the sense of loss and despair at the moment of victory, as Lorien is doomed to fail and fade.
Rivendell's function is of a refuge.

As you approach, are you eager to rush forward, or a little bit afraid?
When reading? I guess I used to be eager to rush forward, because I took in the details of this chapter after relatively many readings.

How do you picture the walls, when everything is so green and tree-based? Is the wall made out of stone, or trees, or some organic material?
In the previous chapter, Caras Galadhon seems a forest of many trees, or a fortress of many towers; I guess this indicates the walls should look like a living hedge, but be incredibly strong and resilient.

Are the gates what Sam would call magic, or are the guards just unseen?
I assume there are guards. Whether it was they who opened the gates, or was it magic - that's a different question.

And why don't we see any pedestrians in the big city, only hear them singing above? Is this supposed to be heaven with angels? Or a traditional fairyland where fairies are heard but not seen?
It most definitely is fairyland (or 'Elfland' to be more accurate) and not paradise.

And even their remote kin at Mirkwood first were heard, in an eerie and disquieting mode, long before we met them in Flies and Spiders.


sador
Half-elven


May 27 2015, 12:14pm

Post #15 of 88 (5333 views)
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“In any case you mustn't confuse a single failure with a final defeat.” [In reply to] Can't Post

Does this make you sympathize with Gimli and Boromir, who don't trust these Elves?
I have sympathised with them for long before.
But it's not Celeborn's reaction which makes me so; neither Boromir nor Thorin would have acted any differently than he did under the same circumstances.
And I note that neither is offended by Celeborn, but both react sharply to Galadriel: Gimli is mesmerised; Boromir's distrust deepens.

Could a married couple be any more different? Why do you think Tolkien made them so similar when royal couples in fairy tales are often so similar?

I suppose you mean "made them so different".
But this mingling of Noldo and Sinda reflects that of Laurelin and Telperion in the hours of mixing of the Lights. It appears that Tolkien cherished this kind of unions.

Galadriel seems three steps ahead of her hubby at every turn, and they've been married for thousands of years.
She is Feanor, he is Daeron (in terms of the alphabets).
Or to put it more bluntly - she is Saruman, he is Gandalf.

Hasn't any of her Valinorean wisdom rubbed off on him yet?
No. Neither, does it seem, did much of his Middle-earthly wisdom rub off on her.
For one thing, he knows to own up to mistakes and apologise.

And she was eager to see Gandalf again because she "much desired to speak with him again." Wouldn't you like to be a fly on the wall of that conversation?!
If you trust her. I mean, she might have been making sure he wasn't around and she has the Fellowship safely in her hand.

Do you think she was being sarcastic when she first calls her husband "Celeborn the Wise" after he's criticized Gandalf?

If she is wise herself, she appreciates his qualities.

Wouldn't everyone at the royal court cringe?
Look: she is a Rebel and an Exile; he is a lord of the Teleri - the court assembled here is his folk, not hers - and apparently he is more attached to the land, as he lingers in it after the Three fail, while she simply walks out, as if without magic it holds no interest any more.
I supposed those who did cringe, were wondering why doesn't he get rid of her ages ago.

Does that mean he's smarter than her, Elrond, and Cirdan?
It seems that he didn't see through her ambition. But then again, neither did they - probably only Saruman realised she was a rival, and not just another Fool he could manipulate like Radagast.

Okay, maybe he's wiser than Haldir, but really?
If you carry on in this vein, you'll really get me started.

And take note of who gives out the best gifts in the next chapter. (Hint: not him.)
Wrong.
The most useful gifts given are clearly the boats; and he is also the one who gives advice and guidance.
She, on the other hand, scatters a bit of magic. And you realise, of course, that if the gifts were from both - it would fall to her, as a part of courtly protocol, to give them?


Well, of course the same argument could go the other way. And her gifts are not really just a bit of magic - I have a different interpretation of them. But that's for next week's discussion.

By the end of the chapter, do you think it's a marriage of equals, or are they like bees, where the queen is in charge and the male is around just as a mating drone?
They are Dick and Nicole Divers from Tender is the Night.


Quote
The liquor I smelt on him tonight, and several other times since he’s been back...



But I must link here to Michael Martinez's famous essay Celeborn unplugged. I guess some have read it already, but if not - it's a treat.



What does "the long defeat" mean to you?
See the opening quote. Also by Scott Fitzgerald, from the same book.

Are these more characters persisting against evil without hope, and does that influence Frodo?
All Elves seem to speak in this way - which makes his collapse at the end of the book, finally sailing away, quite inevitable.

Also Treebeard, of course; but Frodo didn't get much time with him.

Why do you think it was Galadriel who summoned it and not Elrond or Cirdan or one of the Wizards?
She was the only one actively using a Ring of Power.

And if she summoned it, why couldn't she lead it if Gandalf said no?
Saruman did have the claim of being appointed by Manwe, didn't he? Trying to subvert this seems as just another stage in her long history of knowing better than the Valar (even if in this case she did...).

Why is it so important to Tolkien that his Elf-leaders avoid telling people what to do?
The Noldor princes do. It is important that they have learned their lesson.

Although I think Galadriel only learns hers later in this chapter.



CuriousG
Half-elven


May 27 2015, 1:22pm

Post #16 of 88 (5316 views)
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What happened to "late answers"? [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought that was your trademark. :)

OK, if you're going to show up on time, I'll be able to respond.

Noldor + Sindar. Actually, Galadriel got her golden hair from the Vanyar. Noldor usually had dark hair. And it's odd that the Noldor seemed like the go-betweens for the Teleri and Vanyar in Valinor. The latter races (silver & gold haired) didn't seem to mingle much, with the Teleri most connected to the sea and outer world and the Vanyar most connected to the Valar. That might have just been something Tolkien was stuck with, but I agree he likes to have mingling of colors (and races) when he can.

Boromir's distrust: I'll look forward to the next chapter and your sympathy for him.

Wisdom rubbing off: my point was that the Elves of Beleriand became wiser than other Teleri in M-earth because they benefited from the wisdom and presnece of Melian. I would expect a similar effect on Celeborn though to a lesser degree. He just doesn't seem to step up to the plate.

Is that essay by Martinez really famous? I found it opinionated and rambling and not at all persuasive. If Celeborn's going to get defenders, he needs better than that.

Good point on Galadriel being ahead of Celeborn as Saruman was ahead of Gandalf. Saruman was way ahead in terms of looking for the Ring, which with good intentions would be to deprive Sauron of power, and we know what the bad intentions were. Gandalf ignored the issue for millenia, and dawdled when it was under his nose. Can you imagine how things would have happened if Galadriel had visited Frodo in Bag End? He wouldn't have wasted a summer stalling like he did with Gandalf.

I'm not clear on your reasoning about the White Council. If Saruman has a clear, indisputable mandate from Manwe, then he should have summoned the Council himself. Since he didn't, he was negligent. Also, I think Elrond and Cirdan and Gandalf used their Rings actively as well, so Galadriel wasn't the only one making use of one of the Three. And even if she were, that wouldn't necessarily entitle her to summon Councils that others are subject too.

Anyway, thanks for the answers.


sador
Half-elven


May 27 2015, 2:26pm

Post #17 of 88 (5319 views)
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Ethics? [In reply to] Can't Post

It's interesting you didn't like Martinez' piece (I don't agree with all of it, but I like it). And you find it opinionated! As if you haven't been in the RR for years!

How ethical do you think it is for Galadriel to reach into their minds telepathically and tempt them to turn away from the quest?
This is not an issue of ethics, but of her own motives and aims. If they are praiseworthy, then considering the urgency of the Quest and the fact that she won't have time alone with each of the Fellowship, it is okay.
Later, in Many Partings, JRRT states that Elves and Wizards can commune, speaking from mind to mind; and this also appears to be the case with Sauron and Pippin. So perhaps this isn't so bad as you would think.

Isn't that something an evil government would do in science fiction?
Or psychiatrists in modernist fiction.
But I doubt think Tolkien should be judged in the terms of either genre.

Or is it all justified because, bereft of Gandalf, the quest really is in peril, and the situation requires some drastic interrogation to see where things are headed for the sake of the entire world?
It might be. See above.

Does Galadriel herself seem to feel any compunction about her tactics as revealed to her later comment to Frodo at the Mirror?

No, but perhaps about her ambitions - which she does renounce then and there.

What do you think the offer was to Frodo?
I personally think it was a free ride back to Rivendell to live happily ever after at Bilbo's side with someone else taking the Ring.
For sure. And she even offered a surrogate person to take it. Later on, she will lead him to the Mirror for further persuasion.
When the same offer came from Boromir, Frodo was already immune to this kind of temptation.

By the way, what do you think she offered Boromir? Remember his words? It was something which she seemed to have the power to offer (I dont have the book to quote from now).

Now that Gandalf is gone, shouldn't Galadriel find a heroic Glorfindel-equivalent, or an armed escort, to get the Company to Gondor's borders? Clearly they are no longer able to travel by stealth--that failed on the other side of the mountains.
Well, the boats did lead them untracked all the way to Sarn Gebir!

And anyway, it is Celeborn who makes this type of arrangements.



CuriousG
Half-elven


May 27 2015, 7:04pm

Post #18 of 88 (5307 views)
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I think ethical questions are fair when different subjects are considered [In reply to] Can't Post

Are you saying it wouldn't bother if you someone entered your mind, sought your secret desires, and offered to fulfill them, all without your consent? Because most people would find that highly unethical, about as clear an invasion of privacy as there is. But I realize that perceptions of privacy vary from place to place. Europeans, for example, have much stricter laws about it than the USA does.

The communing that is done later is consensual. That's the big difference. There was no consent here.


sador
Half-elven


May 28 2015, 9:59am

Post #19 of 88 (5262 views)
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Is interrogation of foreigners fair? [In reply to] Can't Post

Yes, it would bother me, but this is no different from any interrogation by somebody more intelligent than myself, in which I felt I gave away more than I wanted to.
My point was that looking into their eyes and (possibly) reading them is just the Elvish way of interrogation - which is quite legitimate, seeing that they have intruded a guarded land and have brought danger hot upon their trail.
I also note that there is no clear indication that she has read anything - it could have been just inner suggestion. In the next chapter, Galadriel will say that they are all determined to go forward, but that might have been the result of her month's observation of them. Before Celeborn speaks, there is never a word spoken about the actual choice before them - and we never know what she offered them, except of a partial knowledge of what Sam felt was offered. What was the full offer? What did Merry feel? What did Frodo, Gimli, Boromir? We can only speculate.
And whoever wanted to, simply dropped his eyes and avoided contact. No coercion.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 28 2015, 10:41am

Post #20 of 88 (5262 views)
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Rights to remain silent....? [In reply to] Can't Post

As discussed already what is ambiguous here is how consensual this mind-reading stuff is. Is it pretty much a conversation held without words, or is it someone rummaging around wherever they want in your mind?

I've just found an interesting web page looking at Galadriel's interview in the light of Tolkien's "Ósanwe-kenta essay, [in which ] he talks about the communication of thoughts, addressing both consensual telepathy and forceful mind-reading." :


Quote
He contends that forcing the barrier of the mind is únat (“a thing impossible to be or to be done”). On top of this natural law, there was also an axan (basically a commandment from Illuvatar) that “none shall directly by force or indirectly by fraud take from another what he has a right to hold and keep as his own.” This apparently included thoughts.
...
[Galadriel] most definitely used stealth to speak to their open and unwary minds, and did learn things before it was closed. Of course, she didn’t implant her own thoughts or really deceive them to win their friendship, but that wasn’t her purpose. She wanted to learn more about them and was able to do so. It seems like only Boromir closed the connection.

...
Galadriel seemed to be walking a very questionable line along the axan...

https://sweatingtomordor.wordpress.com/...galadriel-to-melkor/


The writer likens this to Melkor's tactics....

Hmmm....

Does Sam's reaction to Galadriel:

Quote
She seemed to be looking inside me and asking me what I would do if she gave me the chance of flying back home to the Shire to a nice little hole with — with a bit of garden of my own.”


Remind you at all of Sam's report on the delusions the Ring attempts to force on him - where he only has to use it to become Samwise the Great and turn Mordor into a garden.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


(This post was edited by noWizardme on May 28 2015, 10:49am)


sador
Half-elven


May 28 2015, 12:13pm

Post #21 of 88 (5270 views)
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"I can resist anything but temptation" [In reply to] Can't Post

Just guessing, how often do you think Galadriel invokes the power of the Mirror?
As often as she thinks she needs to. Possibly, also when her nosy husband isn't around. But see in the next answer.

So the Mirror has agency? Or is it some expression of Galadriel's thought/spirit?
The second option is intriguing - in which case, of course, Galadriel needn't look in the mirror at all; she only leads unsuspecting visitors there.
Do you think she brought there others of the Fellowship? The text offers no indication of it.

Of course, the simplest answer is that the mirror does have some kind of agency. Buty who is behind it? Ulmo, who speaks in the waters? Varda, of whom Galadriel seems to be some kind of priest? In the latter case, I would expect her to say some prayer before using it, and perhaps she did in some way.

Or else, the mirror might have been some sort of random search engine. Google your own name, and see what it comes up with.

The hobbits are warned not to touch the water. What do you think happens if they do? Is the Mirror a portal that they could fall through, or would touching the water merely break the spell?
I've always upposed the latter.

Why doesn't she just say what's clearly in her mind?
She's far too subtle for that!

How do the visions affect Sam and Frodo?
Sam's temptation was actually enhanced.
And it was critical for Frodo to realise that Sam was suspectable to leaving him, so that he feels truly alone.
So naturally, he is brought to the brink of despair, and offers her the Ring.

Would Frodo have interacted with Gollum and Faramir so skillfully without this added insight?
He might have been more reluctant to cow Gollum with the threat of the Ring, yes.

And Faramir's complimenting Frodo on his skill was probably a ruse to lull the suspicions of Sam, who is the weaker link in the chain. And it worked! Faramir is not just a wizard's pupil, but he's really good! He also got far more out of Gollum than Aragorn did.

Isn't that high-minded of her?
No, it's subtle. She lays the blame for destroying Elvendom at his door, but leaves it there, with a "I'm just sayin'" attitude.

I have always thought that Frodo's regrets in the last chapter referred to Lorien, at least on a secondary level (see here, and the whole thread is very interesting).

It's a small wonder he finally breaks down, and offers her the Ring.

How many other characters in the book would be so forgiving?
Elrond and Faramir were, at the very least. And Glorfindel expressed the same feeling at the Council. Arguably, Treebeard too.
In fact, Galadriel is probably the only one who isn't - but she is working Frodo into the correct state of mind.


What role did the One Ring play in this: was this all the pent-up ambitions of Galadriel on display, or did the Ring collude with her and give her this enhanced vision of splendor the way it later tried to trick Sam into thinking he'd be Hero-Gardener-Savior of Mordor?
I'm not sure it was the Ring itself, but the knowledge of the power it will lend her.

What do you think ultimately saved Galadriel in this horrible moral crossroads of temptation? (is that karma striking back at her?) I'm never sure myself. Was it some innate humility that asserted itself, or her great wisdom, or some deep moral revulsion to becoming a Sauron clone, or something else?

I've written about this here. In fact, one of the reasons I feel strongly in favour of the interpretation I'm annoying you with, is because in a book of religious significance (which Tolkien assreted LotR was), the absence of any real scene of withstanding temptation, and of penitence, is lamentably lacking. Deathbed repentance goes only so far - it doesn't involve living with the consequences.

But for a similar reason, I don't like the idea that Frodo would have been utterly unable to let the Ring go, even had he been unstained. And I don;t think the story goes that way, or even that such a reading is compatible with Tolkien's own religion. However, I have to admit that in his post-LotR Letters, he seems to explicitly say so.

So it might be wrong to consider my interpretation as the correct one, reflecting the author's intentions; it isn't even an unbiased one. But I think it's valid, relevant, and in some way true.


At the risk of indulging in self-appreciation, I will copy the relevant passage here:

Quote

My reading is not because I am anti-elves, or (Heaven forbid!) anti-female characters, but because I really believe in repentance, and in one's freedom to resist temptation; as well as the opportunity to redeem your past sins by repentance; and that generous acts are good in themselves, even if they mask an unholy ambition; as well as in the positive forces of light and beauty, and even of formal reverence to the Valar (well, you know what I mean) - and that the last two help the final resistance far more than indulging in vice.




(This post was edited by sador on May 28 2015, 12:17pm)


oliphaunt
Lorien


May 28 2015, 1:51pm

Post #22 of 88 (5255 views)
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Yes, Dear [In reply to] Can't Post

do you think it's a marriage of equals, or are they like bees, where the queen is in charge and the male is around just as a mating drone?
Or are they doing the good cop/bad cop routine, elven style? Celeborn is so wise and humble that he’s willing to appear foolish. Galadriel has always been prettier, smarter and better than everyone else, she's not going to take on a lesser role. Maybe he’s found it easier to humor her for thousands of years.



sador
Half-elven


May 28 2015, 2:00pm

Post #23 of 88 (5249 views)
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Ha! [In reply to] Can't Post

Excellent.


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 28 2015, 2:08pm

Post #24 of 88 (5247 views)
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Was the whole scene manipulated by Galadriel? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Isn't that high-minded of her?
No, it's subtle. She lays the blame for destroying Elvendom at his door, but leaves it there, with a "I'm just sayin'" attitude.

I have always thought that Frodo's regrets in the last chapter referred to Lorien, at least on a secondary level (see here, and the whole thread is very interesting).

It's a small wonder he finally breaks down, and offers her the Ring.

AND:

In fact, Galadriel is probably the only one who isn't - but she is working Frodo into the correct state of mind.


For me, I'm never sure how spontaneous Galadriel is in this situation when Frodo ultimately offers the Ring, yet I do think she's genuinely surprised when he does. Now, you can be surprised when you're manipulating someone and it actually works, so that doesn't necessarily mean anything. But all this leads up to my question: do you think Galadriel led Frodo to the Mirror with the deliberate agenda of having him offer her the Ring, or was she bringing him here solely to gain insight into his quest and gain knowledge that would help him to succeed since Gandalf is no longer around to guide him? Thus, were her motives selfish, or selfless? (Or some combination of the two--maybe she was conflicted herself?)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 28 2015, 2:10pm

Post #25 of 88 (5246 views)
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Might this be too 'meta'? [In reply to] Can't Post

My thought is that we may be applying modern sensibilities where we should not do so, and judging Galadriel by an unfair ethical standard. In any case, Galadriel is making a tough choice here to assess whether Frodo and his companions are worthy to carry out the vital task that they have taken up. She may see this as her duty under her authority as a founding member of the Council of the Wise and of her status as one of the powerful living beings in Middle-earth.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

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