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Avandel
Half-elven
May 22 2015, 2:00am
Post #51 of 85
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Tho I don't have anything new to say - but for myself -
1) I loved Ryan Gage. If I were a casting director I would hire him in a heartbeat. I thought he was a perfect toady to the Master - as many times as I see it, Alfrid taking a quick swig of the Master's brandy (and after emptying the chamber pot yet) cracks me up, every time. In the DOS EE, I love Alfrid and his plate of bullocks LOL.
2) Alfrid also gives Bard someone outside of Percy for Bard to interact with. While I DO wish the Master had stuck around longer, and watching the Master hike and struggle with the conditions in Dale, along with Alfrid, could actually have been hilarious IMO - at least for a while.
3) Where it went wrong, IMO - too much Alfrid at the expense - I guess - of other character-time (dwarves, Beorn) that for the TE I considered far more important - and scenes banging it into my mind how venal Alfrid is became tiresome like the "abandon the cripples scene". It's IMO outrageous that Alfrid had more lines than most of the dwarves - e.g., the "excess" of Alfrid should have been for the EE. As with IMO the tie-ins to LOTR, at times I think PJ & co. re a character don't know when to take their foot off the gas - that said, PJ & co. also do exquisite, perfectly timed work.
So some of PJ's choices continue to baffle. Or perhaps it's as simple as PJ & co. like Alfrid, so we got lots of Alfrid. And so on. As PJ said, he was going to make these movies his way.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 22 2015, 2:22am
Post #52 of 85
(926 views)
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There are historical references as well.
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since women in earlier Times
were NOT expected to fight alongside of men,
some men used that disguise to "OP-OUT of Duty".
SSOoo..it is NOT something new during WarTIME.
Maybe this seemed like a bit Modern?
with Gender-Bending as an Art Form, going around in this day.
so it didn't seem
"Very Tolkien" @ First.
But wasn't it the Norm in Theater in Shakespeare's DAY?
Bomby finds the Entire Culture of Laketown as Throw-Back to
London, Paris, Amsterdam {In particular} in say the 12th, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, & the 19th Century
which @ Least for Bomb might have Been where JRRT got his idea from.
The World of Men was Quite Foreign to Bilbo
SSOoo.. having it a REAL messy Culture in steep Decline as a Result
of Smaug destroying the Glorious City of Dale was a beautiful contrast.
Laketown was a wonderful set & if you place yourself there?
IT STUNK to High Heaven..????
Good riddance to the Rubbish Heap, know as Laketown!
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on May 22 2015, 2:28am)
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DanielLB
Immortal
May 22 2015, 6:31am
Post #53 of 85
(907 views)
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Alfrid is the absolute worse thing in all six movies. I can't even begin to comprehend what purpose he has in this trilogy.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
May 22 2015, 7:15am
Post #55 of 85
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I seem to recall there generally being laughter at the designated points from the audience in the cinema during my own viewings.
Which "gross" bits are you thinking of particularly?
In the cinemas I went to (in London), not even the children laughed. In fact, the reaction seemed to be more of an embarrassed silence.
The gross aspects of the films that I really, really dislike are such things as Alfrid, Radagast's facial make-up, the snot with the Trolls, the extreme portrayal of the Master and the Goblin King and so on. Had more subtlety been exercised in such cases, the scenes would have been far more effective.
It's really when subtlety is increasingly thrown out of the window that the films fail in a major way. For me, the treatment of Legolas is a perfect example of this. In FotR we had him walking over snow, which was so subtle that I didn't even notice it until someone pointed it out to me. That was great. However, then we had him skateboarding and single-handedly downing an Oliphaut – stupid, unrealistic scenes, but mercifully short. Next we had him doing – again unrealistic and moronic – leaps on people's heads, and finally appearing in a totally absurd scene with bats, trolls and falling towers.
For me, such aspects lower the tone of the Hobbit trilogy to a great extent – which is a great shame, given how great other things in the films were, notably the portrayal of Thorin (acting and characterisation) and the visuals. I also very much regret that the characters of Thranduil and Beorn were not developed more fully (they should have been, because many things about them are unexplained), when so much nonsense has been inserted into the films.
Having taken a break from these films (and this forum) for a while, I am now able to view them with a more distant perspective than was previously the case.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 22 2015, 10:33am
Post #56 of 85
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The World of Men in the 3RD Age...?
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...were the Least Developed Culture in comparison to the
Elves..&
Even the all the Dwarves were much more sophisticated.
Wasn't it only?... until the 4th Age when the Elves
abandoned MiddleEARTH that the Rise of Humans
were deemed worthy to run the World..?
Bomby always thought Magic & Immortality,
USHERED in the present day reality.
Wasn't THIS Bridge brought to life... in the marriage of
Aragorn & Arwen..?
...Or did Bomby miss this POINT, all this time
after?.. over 49 years of reading JRRT.
In The Hobbit, the men, women & Hobbits were the agriculture base
since neither the Elves nor the Dwarves farmed the lands.
Metallurgy & Mining, therefore eventually... sophisticated Machines, in the 4th Age
was the Gift from the Dwarves while
the world of men THEN, just supplied them the Food from the land.
The World of Magic & Immortality left on the Last Ship into the WEST?
Or so Bomby thought...
WE all have a little Elvish in us
because of Arwen's Choice..
Thang you Berry Buch...
Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, Great, ETC..
Grandma..
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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adt100
Rohan
May 22 2015, 10:53am
Post #57 of 85
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I thought most of his scenes very funny, well placed and fitted in with the expanded story of Laketown and the lighter tone of the Hobbit.
I agree his part was expanded a little more than I may have liked (along with Leoglas) in the final film, in comparison to the Dwarves. I'm hoping this will be more balanced in the EE with predominantly more dwarf/bilbo scenes. Certainly had no problem with the character though.
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adt100
Rohan
May 22 2015, 10:55am
Post #58 of 85
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I'm a Brit and I thought most of the humour was spot on :)
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Goldeneye
Lorien
May 22 2015, 1:16pm
Post #59 of 85
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...that Peter Jackson's early films were all gross-out comedies (Bad Taste, Dead Alive/Braindead, Meet the Feebles). That penchant for sight gags and gross humor is in his DNA, and maybe now that he's proved himself as a world-class director he feels more comfortable returning to his roots, so to speak.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
May 22 2015, 2:19pm
Post #60 of 85
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...that Peter Jackson's early films were all gross-out comedies (Bad Taste, Dead Alive/Braindead, Meet the Feebles). That penchant for sight gags and gross humor is in his DNA, and maybe now that he's proved himself as a world-class director he feels more comfortable returning to his roots, so to speak.
However, I feel that these self-indulgent aspects are completely wrong for the subject, and against anything Tolkien would ever have envisaged.
Numerous people have remarked on this – and I am not the type of person who can accept/excuse anything PJ does ad nauseum. In my view these films would have done much better had these excesses been left out. They spoiled something that could have been SO good, given the casting, the visuals and all the talent involved.
It's as though PJ and those around him (if they have any say on what he does) lost all sense of proportion and judgement when it came to these aspects of the films. Perhaps they were just too close to the films and no one neutral stood back and took a good look at them?
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
May 22 2015, 2:33pm
Post #61 of 85
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Nauseam is just a matter of preference.
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Everybody forgives you for the posts against PJ you post again and again.
Just compare how many times we saw Alfrid and how many times you post 
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Glorfindela
Valinor
May 22 2015, 3:04pm
Post #62 of 85
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I don't need your (or anyone else's) 'forgiveness'
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Everybody forgives you for the posts against PJ you post again and again. Just compare how many times we saw Alfrid and how many times you post
As a matter of fact I have barely posted on this forum for some months until today – let alone 'against PJ you post again and again', whatever that means.
I was expressing an opinion that many have as well as me. I prefer not to dumbly accept elements that I do not like, rather than to praise everything that PJ does to the heavens, even though I may not like it. The fact is that I am bitterly disappointed that the elements I've mentioned on this thread have spoiled what could have been a wonderful experience for me. The fact that you disagree is your opinion. I beg to differ.
(This post was edited by Glorfindela on May 22 2015, 3:10pm)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
May 22 2015, 4:15pm
Post #63 of 85
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I think (after check, I'm sure) I have mistaken you with somebody else, but I can't find who nor why, except that I didn't myself post much last month as I keep being frustrated that the movie was so short I couldn't buy the TE DVD to shorten the wait for the EE.
I don't think as a whole that Alfrid was to be shown as much as he is. IMO his over-exposition comes from the fact that he stands at every corner of the Men's side after the demise of the Master of Laketown. He is the continuity of the 'old' order at a time when Bard hasn't already proven himself to be a wise King. But he finds he has no place of his own left in town. Alfrid is mentally screwed by the heroism of Bard. What is interesting is that Bard has no anger against Alfrid, and he doesn't even chase him : he just lets him go with a little bit of gold. That says much about Bard's kindness. People of Laketown had to be shown in that movie, more than elves, who didn't lose their own town.
Alfrid's fate somewhat shows that even a person highly involved into escaping a war situation and standing only for his own, keeps being caught in the war zone hazards. Maybe PJ had already in mind what he was up to do with Anzac remembrance afterwards.
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Glorfindela
Valinor
May 22 2015, 4:42pm
Post #64 of 85
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I think (after check, I'm sure) I have mistaken you with somebody else, but I can't find who nor why, except that I didn't myself post much last month as I keep being frustrated that the movie was so short I couldn't buy the TE DVD to shorten the wait for the EE.
I think, you know, that had the full potential of Beorn and Thranduil, at the very least, been fully explored, and had we received a well put together third film, without all the baffling, frustrating elements, I would have been far more able to tolerate the Alfrid and (for me) other monstrosities. As it is I am extremely sorry that despite the massive budget and resources that were thrown at the film, there was so much that was missing from the story (for instance Beorn fully explained and in action, Thranduil/white jewels/Arkenstone, funeral scene, whatever happened to the Elven armies at the end, surely not another inexplicable disappearing act?). Apologies for the rather fast-written message, but I am trying to work on a tricky book (or five) and not succeeding very well…
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jtarkey
Rohan
May 23 2015, 11:50am
Post #65 of 85
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I am floored by the rationale some people are making to excuse such a horribly written character.
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He literally adds nothing, does nothing, and goes nowhere. He's a badly written character. Plain and simple. I bet PJ could have added oompa loompas riding dune buggies and someone here would come up with a reason as to why it makes sense...
He even diminishes Bard character along the way. Why would Bard trust this guy at all? It makes 0 sense.
"You're love of the halflings leaf has clearly slowed your mind"
^^^ That unnecessary apostrophe and "e" is due to the leaf itself. And this part of the signature was documented quite some time after the effect had worn off.
(This post was edited by jtarkey on May 23 2015, 11:53am)
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AshNazg
Gondor
May 23 2015, 12:15pm
Post #66 of 85
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I don't agree that he adds nothing...
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As I said in my explanations above, he does serve some purpose and I think the concept behind his inclusion was justified and good. There are a few moments where he helps explain what's going on, and passing the Master's servant over to Bard does help emphasise Bard's leadership (so we don't waste time seeing him become king).
I really think the problems stem from how PJ handled Alfrid's character or possibly the performance wasn't right. But whatever the reason for the failure, there are elements of an interesting character under that mess. And I'm not one to defend PJ often.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on May 23 2015, 12:16pm)
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Noria
Gondor
May 23 2015, 1:07pm
Post #67 of 85
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Alfrid is one of BOTFA’s weak aspects IMO
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I get that Alfrid is a foil for Bard, to highlight Bard’s nobility and leadership qualities, to carry on the evils of greed theme and to provide comic relief. That all makes sense but IMO the execution is poor. The character doesn’t work very well for me, mostly because it’s like Alfrid is in a whole other movie and that is PJ’s fault.
In DOS I really liked Alfrid; I thought the character was well played and well used and a very good addition to the movie.
But Alfrid’s role in BOTFA is one of the things I dislike about that movie. IMO less of the character would have been more. I find the performance over-the-top and hammy and his scenes jarring, but mostly there is just too much of him. Neither do I find Alfrid especially amusing, even before the dress. Finally, it doesn’t make story sense to me that Bard continued to use/trust Alfrid when he was so obviously useless and untrustworthy.
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
May 23 2015, 2:43pm
Post #68 of 85
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Why do Bard 'use' Alfrid ? Let's have a look.
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Bard knows Alfrid, Bard knows that Alfrid is indeed cunning, and Bard is perfectly aware that it is much secure to have Alfrid 'at his service' than to have him against his service.
Notice that even Gandalf 'uses' Alfrid, in an even more strategic way. When Gandalf asks Alfrid to put an eye on Bilbo, he anticipates that Alfrid will not because Alfrid is so pissed receiving orders by 'pointy hat'. Gandalf also anticipates that Bilbo will not stay with Alfrid, and that Alfrid might tell him that Bilbo's gone. That's enough to keep Alfrid at bay for a while.
In the end, Alfrid finds himself so depossessed of his former privileges and so disgusted to be asked to do honest things that he decides by himself to flee. What best could Bard ask for, coming from such a ill-tempered character ?
That is very fine and original storytelling IMO.
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Morthoron
Gondor
May 23 2015, 4:51pm
Post #69 of 85
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On the contrary, it is deplorable storytelling....
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Alfrid is greedy and corrupt. Bard, a supposed leader and future king, would have to be completely and utterly ignorant if he was not aware of that. In addition, the cruel Alfrid spends much of DoS making life unbearable for Bard and his family, eventually locking Bard in jail. When Laketown is destroyed, the survivors (who obviously have the common sense Bard completely lacks and know everything they need to about the treacherous and evil Alfrid) are about to string Alfrid up. What does Bard do? He not only sets him free (quite mercifully), allows Alfrid to continue mistreating the survivors horribly,and then eventually allows Alfrid to guard his children -- the children almost turned out into the streets when Alfrid and the Master jail him.
It is nonsense. It is terrible scripting. It also depicts a stereotypical villain in need of dentistry (as I said previously, bad teeth are a hallmark of nearly every Jackson cliché villain), with ridiculously low humor, trite dialogue and absolutely no redeeming values.
It would have made more sense to retain the Master (an actual character in the book), who at least carried some semblance of power after Laketown was destroyed, and who did have a continuing storyline when the refugees left Laketown. Jackson, in his usual pompous but mistaken belief that he can create characters, instead throws Alfrid in and eliminates the Master. Just plain ego-stroking inanity. It is as if Jackson forgets what his characters do from one scene to the next -- a bad trait that is apparent throughout both trilogies.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on May 23 2015, 4:54pm)
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
May 23 2015, 5:52pm
Post #70 of 85
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'didn't we have enough losses ?'
That's enough to understand his point of view.
Alfrid shares no responsability in the destruction of Laketown, Thorin did.
The point is that in the book, Master of Laketown stays near the lake, while in the movie, everybody goes up to Dale.
In Tolkien's book, the village is tiny, which means inhabited by few people, a part of those few people are killed by smaug, a part of the survivors stay back near the lake, and the other part goes to Erebor, and we are supposed to believe that this is enough to have an 'army' fighting thousands of orcs.
Tolkien did not show coherence there, PJ did.
The policy of the aftermaths of Smaug's attack is : everybody has to try and survive through fighting, including Alfrid. Period.
What's the trouble with that ? I see none.
The only trouble is that Alfrid is more than reluctant, which is shocking and funny altogether.
Many of Alfrid's interventions were funny, which is proved IMO by the fact that many (french) people laughed in the theater at those moments.
French people are experts when weaselness is on scene
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Morthoron
Gondor
May 23 2015, 6:59pm
Post #71 of 85
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You need to read the book again. Perhaps more than once...
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In Tolkien's book, the village is tiny, which means inhabited by few people, a part of those few people are killed by smaug, a part of the survivors stay back near the lake, and the other part goes to Erebor, and we are supposed to believe that this is enough to have an 'army' fighting thousands of orcs.
Tolkien did not show coherence there, PJ did.
Where exactly did Tolkien refer to Laketown as "tiny"? Please, take your time and actually read how the town was described. Also, you might want to look at the picture Tolkien drew of Laketown. It is no small affair but quite large, and Tolkien uses words like "great bridge", "tall piles on which were built greater houses", "long wooden quays with steps and ladders", a "great hall", "great steps of the town hall", "a large house was given up to Thorin and company", and "crowds sat outside". Nowhere is mentioned "tiny", "cramped", "unpopulated" or "small".
So please, don't talk of Tolkien lacking coherence, rather, speak of Jackson blowing things completely out of proportion, making a battle with armies larger than were at Helm's Deep (and a second Orc army thrown in for no apparent reason), with sandworms from Arrakis and trolls that would not be there at all.
In the audience I sat in, no one laughed at Alfrid. But then there were no French people there, and the French gave a Legion of Honor medal to Jerry Lewis, so I would suggest their ability to judge comedy is rather negligible.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on May 23 2015, 7:00pm)
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
May 23 2015, 7:30pm
Post #72 of 85
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Do you have any problem with Sweden
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Becuse her in Sweden all laughed to Alfrid.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
May 23 2015, 8:10pm
Post #74 of 85
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Perhaps they caught sight of you glowering and were cowed?
I think I'm not very "lace doily" when it comes to humour, so I certainly didn't object to the things you mention (though they split across things which where funny tome personally and things which appeared tobe for kids).
And I think that's a more general point for me. Not everything in these films are aimed at me, and personally I can't begrudge that. I'm very conscious of the spectrum of audience and would be very sceptical about moving beyond the personal to ideas of what would be better for everyone, in a number of these cases.
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Morthoron
Gondor
May 23 2015, 8:13pm
Post #75 of 85
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Of Jackson's juvenile need for excess: let's make the WiKi's mace weigh 400 pounds; let's make the GoblinKing's goiter larger than New Hampshire; let's go sledding down rivers of gold from molten dwarf sculptures the size of the Colossus of Rhodes; rather than a series of worn tunnels in Goblin Town, let's design Chutes 'n' Ladders the Video Game(TM); let's put more skulls in the Paths of the Dead than was the population of Middle-earth; let's have ridiculously outsized Mumakil being taken down by more green Scrubbing Bubbles than S.C. Johnson Corp. has ever produced; why should Bard the Bowman use and arrow? he needs a harpoon; and by all means, let us make a Battle of Five Armies that is so totally out of proportion that it is a wonder that Sauron had any orcs left to attack Aragorn at the Gates of the Morannon. Excess, overkill and exaggeration. No subtlety in dialogue, humor or characterization.
You made the spurious claim "Tolkien did not show coherence"; on the contrary, he did. He merely didn't consider that you can multiply armies with CGI techniques and in the process make later, more important battles seem insignificant.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
(This post was edited by Morthoron on May 23 2015, 8:13pm)
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