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emre43
Rohan
May 21 2015, 6:54am
Post #1 of 21
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Naive question, wasn't sure exactly where to ask it
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So, as we know, Tolkien sold the right to The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit before he died. I was just wondering whether that meant that the Tolkien Estate no longer possess the right themselves to edit/supplement/build on the work of those books anymore?
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 21 2015, 7:34am
Post #2 of 21
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Someone will correct me if I'm wrong...
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But I believe Tolkien sold the movie rights, not the copyright. So the Tolkien Estate still holds the rights to the books - they just don't have the right to make movies of The Hobbit or LOTR, or to control the movies that are made from them.
Silverlode Roads go ever ever on Under cloud and under star Yet feet that wandering have gone Turn at last to home afar. Eyes that fire and sword have seen And horror in the halls of stone Look at last on meadows green And trees and hills they long have known.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 21 2015, 12:57pm
Post #4 of 21
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I believe Christopher Tolkien has made a few minor changes to LOTR. A couple that come to mind. A “grey horse” (Asfaloth?) at the Grey Havens is not mentioned in older editions. Gandalf and Pippin’s ride from Edoras to Minas Tirith has changed from 2 days to 3 days in newer editions. click (post #3) MORE?
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Elthir
Grey Havens
May 21 2015, 1:28pm
Post #5 of 21
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There have been changes since Tolkien passed on...
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... but outside of any mistakes (like "omentilmo"), the changes made to the second edition, like Shadowfax at the Havens -- he is the grey horse, Asfaloth was a white horse -- were from JRRT himself. Some (not nearly all) more modern (after Tolkien's passing) alterations include... A) the introduction of an editorial footnote to Appendix F B) the addition of another Numenorean King, with revision of the text to accommodate this D) the change of date (birth date? some date anyway) regarding one of the Numenorean Queens C) a change to the number of ponies made ready for the Hobbits before entering the Old Forest ... and many more, some merely being type related errors.
(This post was edited by Elthir on May 21 2015, 1:38pm)
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Voronwë_the_Faithful
Valinor
May 21 2015, 2:29pm
Post #6 of 21
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Correct, though there is still a vast grey area
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In theory, you are correct; Tolkien sold the film rights but retained the copyright, which passed on to his Estate. However, that hasn't prevented continuous argument about exactly where the dividing line is. Hence the current litigation (which is currently on hold while certain issues are appealed) regarding merchandizing issues including online gaming and Lord of the Rings themed slot machines.
'But very bright were the stars upon the margin of the world, when at times the clouds about the West were drawn aside.' The Hall of Fire
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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May 22 2015, 12:45am
Post #7 of 21
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I knew my answer was a vastly simplified one, but I don't have the knowledge to go into details. Thanks for confirming and expanding a little on the answer.
Silverlode Roads go ever ever on Under cloud and under star Yet feet that wandering have gone Turn at last to home afar. Eyes that fire and sword have seen And horror in the halls of stone Look at last on meadows green And trees and hills they long have known.
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 22 2015, 1:15am
Post #8 of 21
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Is there a crack-in-the-door ?
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... but outside of any mistakes (like "omentilmo"), the changes made to the second edition, like Shadowfax at the Havens -- he is the grey horse, Asfaloth was a white horse -- were from JRRT himself. From Letters #268 “I think Shadowfax certainly went with Gandalf (across the sea), though this is not stated.” “It would not be unfitting for him to ‘go West’. “. . . it is inconceivalble that he would [have] ridden any beast but Shadowfax; so Shadowfax must have been there.” Here Tolkien simply says “I think”; “not unfitting”; and “must have”. He’s being mysteriously obtuse. Of course this “great grey horse” is not mentioned in the original edition and must have been edited in in your second edition, and Tolkien doesn’t state definitively that Shadowfax DID ‘go West’, or the grey horse WAS indeed Shadowfax. He is almost (in this letter) seemingly a member of TORn with some almost (but just shy) absolutes, as he doesn’t state definitively that Shadowfax went West. Why do we neophytes think of Shadowfax as “white”? I find no textual evidence that he was white, just silver, or silver-grey. Most likely comes from the many mentions of “The White Rider”, perhaps? So did Shadowfax ‘go West’? Was it Shadowfax at the Havens? Most certainly YES! The “crack-in-the-door” - Tolkien didn’t name Shadowfax at the Grey Havens. Why? Isn’t this part of what we love about Tolkien? Oh, yes! Did Tolkien make this an ‘absolute’ in some other writing?
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
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May 22 2015, 1:49am
Post #9 of 21
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When is a white horse not a white horse?
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Answer: When he's a grey one. Oddly enough, horse color isn't entirely dependent on the hair color of their coat. Most white-coated horses that you see are actually greys despite their white color. Often the foals are born with grey coats which lighten as they age. And the horses of the Rohirrim are repeatedly described as grey in the book. Shadowfax is described as "shining like silver". So if true white horses are white, and grey horses are white also, how do you know the difference? Easiest way is to look at the skin that shows on the face around the nose. In a true white horse the skin will be pink. In greys, the skin is dark. White horse: Grey horse: MovieShadowfax: Shadowfax is grey in both book and movie - but likely a grey with a pale or white coat.
Silverlode Roads go ever ever on Under cloud and under star Yet feet that wandering have gone Turn at last to home afar. Eyes that fire and sword have seen And horror in the halls of stone Look at last on meadows green And trees and hills they long have known.
(This post was edited by Silverlode on May 22 2015, 1:57am)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 22 2015, 1:51am
Post #10 of 21
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Ooops, meant to say Shadowfax, not Asfaloth -- Brain Blunder... //
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Cari
Bree
May 22 2015, 2:09am
Post #11 of 21
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Because they still contest any "mis-use" of any Hobbit/LotR names (i.e. restaurants, stores, etc.). I'd think they wouldn't have the right to do that if they didn't have control of the works. If I remember right, this is the reason DnD uses the name Halflings instead of Hobbits due to copyright issues.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
May 22 2015, 10:39am
Post #12 of 21
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(snip of explanation of "grey" versus white in horse circles) Shadowfax is grey in both book and movie - but likely a grey with a pale or white coat. I'm not sure about this being likely Not only is Shadowfax described as 'Sceadu-faex 'having shadow-grey mane (and coat)" by Tolkien in Nomenclature, but in his books, there are horses described as white, and surely meant to be imagined as white, like Snowmane and Asfaloth. Shadowfax is not described as white and Asfaloth not as grey. Tolkien also uses these words in the same sentence: '... their captains and chieftains were upon horses, white and grey.' Fall of Gondolin, revised but unfinished version, Unfinished Tales, early 1950s So, while I do not disagree with all the information you posted, I remain unconvinced that it has much to do with Tolkien's choice of description for his books. Is the reader supposed to imagine this scene from the revised Fall of Gondolin as one with all "white" (to the eye) horses, but that some are really greys (who can begin as horses of varying colour before they "grey"), while others are true white? As a side note, I notice that you use "a grey with a pale or white coat", as do other people who know about horses, and while I'm not saying Tolkien didn't know about horses (noting, in any case, his relatively brief connection to horses during a part of his military service), I can't find any instance of Tolkien referring to "a grey" as if a noun. I think Tolkien intends the reader to imagine a distinction of colour in general, along with other poetic resonances (nobility for example)... ... but in any case the reader cannot see the skin of a given horse in the book (obviously)
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Elthir
Grey Havens
May 22 2015, 10:46am
Post #13 of 21
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... but... (you knew that was coming)... ... I wouldn't call this a crack-in-the-door nor wrangle about it being an absolute. Would anyone really disagree that we have Shadowfax here? What other horse could this great grey horse be? Even you say most certainly yes! Tolkien, as a writer, knows he can deliver facts without naming names, so while you are technically correct, it seems more like (grey) hair splitting to me, in this instance. Or maybe put it this way: why shine on a light on the fact that Shadowfax is not named here, and not an absolute in this sense?
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Elthir
Grey Havens
May 22 2015, 11:04am
Post #14 of 21
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Why do we neophytes think of Shadowfax as “white”? I find no textual evidence that he was white, just silver, or silver-grey. Most likely comes from the many mentions of “The White Rider”, perhaps? Possibly that, but also due to what I call "horse terminology"... but in books you cannot see a horse's skin unless the author lets you, and how can the reader know the (general) colour of "a grey" in the book if we think in these terms -- that is, since a "grey" could be white looking to the eye, or other colours (including something in the middle, as it greys, like a dappled grey), before turning white-looking. In other words I'm not sure Tolkien employs the word in this way for his books (if I understand things correctly, and maybe I don't, but let's say as I think I understand things). I mean, if so, wouldn't there be a lot of "possibly white looking" horses in Middle-earth!?! In The Lord of the Rings Tolkien rather rarely employs any other word to describe horse colour, that is, other than grey or white, and white is employed for Snowmane (white as snow), and Asfaloth (in Elvish Tolkien once mused that this name connected to sea-foam, see Words, Phrases and Passages)... ... for two examples of horses who I think are no doubt to be imagined as white-to-the-eye (the inner eye of the reader). JRRT used black to describe some of the horses stolen from Rohan (by the enemy), and "dark-grey" for at least one horse, Hasufel. I found the word "brown" employed in the abandoned Epilogue, and the description "dappled grey" way back in The Book of Lost Tales.
(This post was edited by Elthir on May 22 2015, 11:12am)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 22 2015, 12:24pm
Post #15 of 21
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Oh, yes I knew that was coming. And I WAS splitting (grey) hairs (to the maximum) for sure! I don’t mind opening myself up for a good chastisement on occasion. I think I read the first edition (no grey horse) so many times that the thought of Shadowfax going West never entered my mind. When I found out (from some good TORnsib) that there WAS a “great grey horse” at the Havens, I was well pleased. Giddyup boy! Reminds me of the anecdote wherein Tolkien showed some confusion (don’t recall where I read this) over why it should be a “great green dragon” and not a “green great dragon”. A “grey great horse”? Hmm, just doesn’t hack it.
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Elthir
Grey Havens
May 22 2015, 2:26pm
Post #16 of 21
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I'm a hair-splitter myself at times...
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... so I hope I didn't sound too "what's the point?" (in a rude way) there... reading my post again it seems a bit rude, so apologies for that.
(This post was edited by Elthir on May 22 2015, 2:30pm)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 22 2015, 6:32pm
Post #18 of 21
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No problem, not rude at all Elthir :)
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I expected to get some flak on this super super-trivial point. Rude might be – You @#%% of a @#$%, are you a @#$% nut! OR. . . I recall years ago doing an article on Half-elven and figuring that Elrond wasn’t exactly ˝ Elven but 56 1/4% Elven, 37 1/4% Man, and 6 1/2% Maia. One response I got was, “Next will be BG’s consternation over the fact that Tolkien refers to Arda Marred as “round” when in fact the earth isn’t round but an oblate spheroid.” (Well it goes both ways eh? Who’s being trivial with the “round” statement?) I guess I just love delving into the trivialities to see what turns up. It’s FUN fun. . .: AND occasionally makes for some enjoyable dialogue.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 23 2015, 3:42am
Post #19 of 21
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Or, what would determine whether a spin-off is from the movie or books? At least you have visual information, in most cases, which I would assume would need to clearly reflect movie actors (human or equine) and designs in order to fall under the movie license. What are the litigators relying on?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 23 2015, 12:47pm
Post #20 of 21
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Or, what would determine whether a spin-off is from the movie or books? At least you have visual information, in most cases, which I would assume would need to clearly reflect movie actors (human or equine) and designs in order to fall under the movie license. What are the litigators relying on? With something like a movie about a younger Aragorn, one could tell if it was a spin-off of the previous films by the timeframe. Film-Aragorn is in his mid-20s during the Quest of Erebor; he would have first encountered Arwen approximately five years before then.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Sam20
Lorien
Jun 2 2015, 2:53am
Post #21 of 21
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These things are legalistic complicated and so it's certainly not a naive question. I remember hearing Peter Jackson telling that they couldn't easily get the rights to adapt The Hobbit in a movie so that's why they went for The Lord Of The Rings instead, which they could distribute without issues. Only later on did The Hobbit was cleared for adaptation. But now it seems any other material concerning J.R.R Tolkien is under lock and key by the Tolkien Estate. Which probably means we won't get a Silmarillion TV show or something like that any time soon..
(This post was edited by Sam20 on Jun 2 2015, 2:57am)
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