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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
My theory on the Watchful Peace and Angmar in the Hobbit movies

ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 22 2015, 4:36am

Post #1 of 19 (2430 views)
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My theory on the Watchful Peace and Angmar in the Hobbit movies Can't Post

Since there have been a lot of discussions out there on this matter, I decided to post a thread for my own theory (and others' theories also Wink):
Before or after the Battle of Fornost, Earnur rode to Carn Dum to challenge the Witchking and disappeared (replacing his disappearance in Minas Morgul) or gets killed. Then, maybe because of fear, or because the Nazgul were too strong, the Free Peoples manage to destroy all of Angmar except for Carn Dum, where the Ringwraiths remained quiet thereafter. Then, years later (while the Nazgul were still hiding quietly, or while they were starting to stir into activity), the Free Peoples gathered a greater army and lead another siege on the fortress, and the Nine were killed and entombed in the High Fells 400 years before 2941 (when the Hobbit takes place), starting the Watchful Peace Elrond talks about in AUJ.
This is my theory on the Watchful Peace mentioned in the Hobbit AUJ. Tell me what you think of my theory, and tell me your theories Smile.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 22 2015, 3:16pm

Post #2 of 19 (2302 views)
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The Watchful Peace on Film [In reply to] Can't Post

I have developed my own ideas about this, based on the idea that the Watchful Peace began with the entombment of the Nazgul at Peter Jackson's High Fells (a location that does not exist in Tolkien's legendarium). I did not develop it in as much detail because I wasn't sure how to handle the fall of the North Kingdoms, particularly Arthedain. Let me take a stab at it now, borrowing a couple of your ideas.

Arthedain falls as it does in the book-canon, but Angmar does not. The Witch-king at the Battle of Fornost receives reinforcements from the East and the armies of the Men and Elves are pushed back.

Minas Ithil is still taken by the Nazgul and renamed Minas Morgul. Earnur as King of Gondor confronts the Lord of the Nazgul and is never seen again; however, in truth he was vanquished with a morgul-blade and transformed into a lesser Wraith. The Witch-king returns to Angmar.

The Witch-kingdom endures for another 500 years in a stalemate with the forces of Rivendell, Gondor and the Grey Havens. It isn't until after Angmar makes a suprise attack against Thranduil's Woodland Realm, resulting in the capture of the Elvenking's Queen, that the situation changes.

Thranduil attempts to rescue his queen before her captors can reach the fortress at Gundabad, but he fails and his wife is killed. The Elvenking nurses his hatred for Angmar for many decades but the Woodland Realm, alone, isn't strong enough to take on the Witch-king's forces. In the middle of the twenty-sixth century an alliance is formed uniting the Wood-elves with the other enemies of the Witch-king. An all-out assault is launched.

The rest of the Nine are summoned to Angmar, but they arrive overconfident, well in advance of their armies (delayed by the armies of the Greenwood and Gondor) and are defeated. With powerful spells they are restrained and entombed at the High Fells in the Misty Mountains on the border of Rhudaur. Minas Morgul is now commanded by some lesser (but still powerful) servant of Mordor--perhaps the Wraith of Earnur.

What do you think?

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 22 2015, 3:18pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 22 2015, 4:54pm

Post #3 of 19 (2269 views)
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Minas Ithil [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
Minas Ithil is still taken by the Nazgul and renamed Minas Morgul. Earnur as King of Gondor confronts the Lord of the Nazgul and is never seen again; however, in truth he was vanquished with a morgul-blade and transformed into a lesser Wraith. The Witch-king returns to Angmar.


Or, perhaps the Lord of the Nazgul returns to Angmar after the capture of Minas Ithil is complete and (as ThonrinsNemesis proposes) Earnur confronts the Witch-king at Carn Dum rather than at Minas Morgul. Either way, Earnur might become a Wraith in the service of the Witch-king.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 22 2015, 4:55pm)


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 22 2015, 5:35pm

Post #4 of 19 (2259 views)
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Earnur, Minas Ithil and Angmar [In reply to] Can't Post

Your theory is a very good and quite possible one Smile Also, Earnur turning into a wraith was one of my guesses too, becoming something like Mordirith in Lotro but less powerful, but he may just have died at Carn Dum, unbeknown to the Free Peoples. Only I think Minas Ithil was still uncorrupted, like mentioned in Shadow of Mordor. Everything else from your theory sounds just perfect like a Jackson-made piece of Middle-earth history, imo Smile



ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 22 2015, 5:53pm

Post #5 of 19 (2251 views)
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Earnur and Fornost [In reply to] Can't Post

Another guess I have is that Earnur becomes a wraith at Carn Dum, and, as in your theory at the Battle of Fornost the Free Peoples are pushed back, Fornost remained in the hold of Angmar a bit more. When it is cleansed of Angmar's forces, and when Angmar is destroyed and the Ringwraiths entombed, some of the surviving peoples/orcs from Angmar went down into the North Downs, hiding in the woods, and gathering at Fornost. The wraith of Earnur, having escaped the downfall of Angmar, comes to hide in the citadel of Fornost. He is killed in some way when Aragorn reclaims and rebuilds it in the Fourth Age, with Aragorn not knowing who he had killed, and Earnur's wraith had been kind of 'disoriented' after his Master, the Witchking, and Sauron's destructions, making it easier for him to be killed.
I'm open to corrections and opinions on my theory Smile



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 22 2015, 6:01pm

Post #6 of 19 (2247 views)
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Shadow of Mordor [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Only I think Minas Ithil was still uncorrupted, like mentioned in Shadow of Mordor. Everything else from your theory sounds just perfect like a Jackson-made piece of Middle-earth history, imo Smile


Well, I would hesitate to call most Jackson-made pieces of Middle-earth history perfect, but thank you for the compliment. If Minas Ithil in the Shadows of Mordor game remained free of Mordor's control until the end of the Third Age then that is probably supposed to be consistent with the movie-verse. I would guess that it was supposed to have then been captured sometime after the Battle of Five Armies (in the year 2940 in the films*).

*Bilbo gives the year of his eleventy-first birthday as TA 3000 in the extended edition of TH:AUJ. Sixty years prior to that would be 2940.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 22 2015, 6:05pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 22 2015, 6:11pm

Post #7 of 19 (2238 views)
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Earnur as a Wraith [In reply to] Can't Post

The interesting thing about your suggestion is that it allows for a follow-up story to The Lord of the Rings concerning Aragorn in the Fourth Age. It also illustrates how evil can leave a legacy long after its defeat (A Legacy of Shadow?).

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 22 2015, 6:13pm

Post #8 of 19 (2237 views)
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Aragorn and Earnur [In reply to] Can't Post

Also, since it is the year 3000 in the lotr movies and Aragorn still is 87 years old, then he would have been born earlier than in the book, and he is 27 years old during the Hobbit movies.
So my theory on Earnur in Fornost sounds possible? Also you can also tell your own theory on Earnur, with Minas Morgul still being Minas Ithil, if you have one Wink



(This post was edited by ThorinsNemesis on May 22 2015, 6:15pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 22 2015, 6:27pm

Post #9 of 19 (2228 views)
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Aragorn in the Films [In reply to] Can't Post

My best estimate is that the scene between Aragorn and Eowyn takes place in 3002 and that he is most likely 25 years old during the Quest of Erebor. But even that is dependent on if the journey to Helm's Deep happened before or after 1 March (Aragorn's birthday).

September 22, 3000: Bilbo's birthday party.
September 3001: Frodo and Sam leave Bag End.
October 25, 3001: The Council of Elrond.
Winter 3001/3002: The Breaking of the Fellowship.
Spring 3002: The Battle of the Hornburg.

So Aragorn could be 25 or 26 years old at the time of the Battle of Five Armies.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 22 2015, 6:38pm)


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 22 2015, 6:40pm

Post #10 of 19 (2216 views)
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Years in the LOTR movies [In reply to] Can't Post

Even if he is 25 years old, he would have been a young ranger nicknamed Strider during the Hobbit movies, just like in Thranduil's description of him. Also I think my theory on the wraith of Earnur in Fornost is quite possible since we have no clues what happened at Fornost and Carn Dum during the War of the Ring; Earnur's wraith may have been hiding in Fornost or in Carn Dum during that time.



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 22 2015, 6:47pm

Post #11 of 19 (2213 views)
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That is true. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Even if he is 25 years old, he would have been a young ranger nicknamed Strider during the Hobbit movies, just like in Thranduil's description of him.


It still leaves us with the question of how does Thranduil knows of Aragorn? I doubt that he would have known of 'Estel' while Isildur's Heir was growing up in Rivendell. Perhaps Aragorn and the Elvenking met in the Greenwood during the young Ranger's first few years of wandering.

Another question is: Did Aragorn and Gandalf first meet and become friends before or after the Quest of Erebor?

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 22 2015, 7:00pm

Post #12 of 19 (2209 views)
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Aragorn, Thranduil and Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

I also think Thranduil may have met Strider in his first years if wandering.
As for Gandalf, maybe they met before the Quest of Erebor, but that is just my guess Smile



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 22 2015, 7:06pm

Post #13 of 19 (2205 views)
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Aragandalf [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
As for Gandalf, maybe they met before the Quest of Erebor, but that is just my guess Smile


Could be. And Gandalf might have judged Aragorn to be too unseasoned yet to involve him in the events of 2940.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 22 2015, 7:18pm

Post #14 of 19 (2202 views)
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Yes [In reply to] Can't Post

He could have judged him that way. Also, why didn't they make a cameo for Strider in BOTFA rather than mentioning him?



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 22 2015, 7:21pm

Post #15 of 19 (2198 views)
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No Viggo [In reply to] Can't Post

My guess would be that the part would have had to have been recast with a younger actor. I don't think that Viggo would have wanted to play a young Aragorn, even if computer software could make him look younger.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 22 2015, 7:24pm

Post #16 of 19 (2192 views)
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Why? [In reply to] Can't Post

Computer effects made old Bilbo look younger in LOTR FOTR, they could have done it with Strider too. Why wouldn't Viggo want to play Aragorn in this movie?



(This post was edited by ThorinsNemesis on May 22 2015, 7:25pm)


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 22 2015, 7:31pm

Post #17 of 19 (2186 views)
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Bilbo was not de-aged with computers in FotR [In reply to] Can't Post

The filmmakers used strictly practical effects to make Ian Holm look younger when Bilbo found the Ring in FotR. Computers weren't used at all for that.

I have the impression that Viggo Mortensen would have just been plain uncomfortable with playing a 25 year-old version of his character at that point. He may even feel that he's moved beyond the part. On the other hand, if there is ever a movie centered on Aragorn's journeys and errantries, I would like Viggo involved as King Elessar as a framing device for the story.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Hobbity Hobbit
Lorien


May 22 2015, 7:34pm

Post #18 of 19 (2180 views)
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Some news articles say [In reply to] Can't Post

because he wasn't in the book, but they did overexaggerate and change some things he said. Like one article made it seem he was complaining about CGI, but he told ToRN, that he was saying that both trilogies have had a major reliance on CGI and said that they misinterpreted him. Also I don't think Ian Holm had computer effects on him, he looked a lot older than in FoTR to me, maybe it's the make up?

"As the snowflakes cover my fallen brothers,
I will say this last goodbye."


ThorinsNemesis
Lorien

May 22 2015, 7:40pm

Post #19 of 19 (2172 views)
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Yeah, probably [In reply to] Can't Post

I've always wanted PJ to make a movie centered around the wars with Angmar. That way we will see his interpretation of Angmar, and it will explain the unexplained things we are making theories on Smile And Aragorn could be featured in some way also, honestly I can't imagine Aragorn in the movies without being played by Viggo.


 
 

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