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Smaug the iron
Gondor
May 21 2015, 5:41pm
Post #26 of 85
(618 views)
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Philippa Boyens said in an interview that British like the humor more then Americans.
I love the humor and so did all in the cinema.
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 21 2015, 5:57pm
Post #27 of 85
(600 views)
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Mister FRY is in Demand in Britain
Films, Voice-overs, Theaters, writing, etc.
He is considered a Renaissance Man there.
He might have only been able to squeeze in about a week for filming.
Ryan Gage? This was his first movie.
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
May 21 2015, 6:45pm
Post #28 of 85
(579 views)
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Didn't mind him in DoS too much...
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...but hated him in Bo5A. I don't get why they didn't just use the Master of Lake-town for the role of "greedy, sniveling coward".
I get that PJ and Co. want to put their own stamp on the stories, but they're all a little over-keen on pushing their inventions to the forefront. Tauriel and Alfrid were both extremely intrusive IMO (as were Legolas and Azog).
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Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea
May 21 2015, 6:47pm
Post #29 of 85
(575 views)
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Jackson could have got rid of Alfrid, and orc chase at Laketown and still had elves in the town being canon to the book
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Because he could had placed Tauriel and Legolas (still if he only wanted them as a cameos) at the table of the master of the city when Thorin and co appear (this happens in the book and there are elves there who get frustrated that the master give Thorin and co cover) So it would have played out a very interesting clash of powers between the elves and the master, showing this last to be really greedy enough to expose himself to the wrath of thranduil and to the wrath of the dragon by protecting the dwarves and letting them go. It would have played subtle, with the master seeming a good guy when he is greedy instead. It would have been more interesting IMO instead having another Grima worm tongue.
That said I liked how the character is portrayed, and how he plays out in BOTFA with Bard, but perhaps in a Sheakespeare comedy not here in the hobbit
The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true
Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer
Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero
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Salmacis81
Tol Eressea
May 21 2015, 6:50pm
Post #30 of 85
(574 views)
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Agree with everything you said...
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There was no reason to even add Alfrid into the narrative of Bo5A when they already had the Master, a Tolkien character who actually appears in the story.
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Morthoron
Gondor
May 21 2015, 7:27pm
Post #31 of 85
(556 views)
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Given the despicable manner in which Alfrid treated Bard in the DoS movie, I would question Bard's judgment for keeping him around in BoFA -- and then leaving him to protect his children? Bad scripting.
Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
May 21 2015, 7:31pm
Post #32 of 85
(554 views)
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I liked most of the humor surrounding Alfrid the first time I saw BotFA, but I get more and more sick of it each time I watch the movie. It's just so repetitive and a poor use of screentime. I preferred how they used him in DoS. I even liked that he got a couple extra scenes in the EE, but I'm dreading any extra Alfrid material in the BotFA EE...unless they shot something more meaningful with him that wasn't just following the same formula that all of his scenes had.
The "Hey you! Pointy hat!" scene is one of my favorites in the whole movie though.
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
May 21 2015, 7:40pm
Post #33 of 85
(551 views)
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the only new scene with Alfrid in EE is his death scene.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 21 2015, 7:55pm
Post #34 of 85
(541 views)
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I think the only new scene with Alfrid in EE is his death scene.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Bishop
Gondor
May 21 2015, 7:58pm
Post #35 of 85
(540 views)
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Has there been anything official on this?
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I have a sneaky suspicion we're going to get more Alfrid than just his death. Call it a hunch!
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Mooseboy018
Grey Havens
May 21 2015, 7:59pm
Post #36 of 85
(535 views)
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I'm hoping for the simpler version where he gets cornered by some orcs rather than the over the top catapult one...
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 21 2015, 8:24pm
Post #37 of 85
(521 views)
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Just Checked IMDB, Ryan is in a new TV Series
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"The Musketeers" an Updated version of this Tale.
He plays King Louis...SSOoo... he will get to be
SLEAZY.. all over again
on British TV..?
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
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CathrineB
Rohan
May 21 2015, 8:29pm
Post #38 of 85
(520 views)
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Like others has said, he was certainly put in there for Bard to have someone to talk to + the humor. I understand that part. I do. I just wish they didn't feel the need to force that incredibly out of place and ridiculous humor at the cost of more important characters. The whole pushing old people out of the way to save himself, dressing up as a woman... It's TOO much. Less is more. I would rather have seen them go with Bard talking to this Percy guy or something.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
May 21 2015, 8:41pm
Post #39 of 85
(512 views)
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"I think in the book Laketown divides into two communities, one stays in Dale and one goes back to Laketown? So it could have been fun to maybe see Alfrid trying to scrabble together the few people to follow him back to the ruins of Laketown."
Laketown was destroyed - there was no Laketown to go back to. Even the bridge was destroyed. The book only says that the Master stole the gold and ran off, but was abandoned by his men and died in the desert. Now, there was a division between the Dwarves, where some backed Thorin completely while others - mostly Kili & Fili - wanted to help the Laketown survivors. We only saw a touch of that in the movie, when Kili protested that "they have lost everything." Not a peep from Fili - I would have preferred this to more Alfrid.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 21 2015, 8:53pm
Post #40 of 85
(503 views)
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The old Master, before he helped himself to a portion of the gold Bard had set aside for Lake-town, helped to plan a new Lake-town, larger than the old community, north of the former site.
And Lake-town was re-founded and was more prosperous than ever, and much wealth went up and down the Running River; and there was friendship in those parts between elves and dwarves and men.
And earlier, in the chapter "Fire and Water":
Then they set about raising many huts by the shore against the oncoming winter; and also under the Master's direction they began the planning of a new town, designed more fair and large even than before, but not in the same place. They removed northward higher up the shore; for ever after they had a dread of the water where the dragon lay.
All that said, it looks like Lake-town might not have been rebuilt in the continuity of the films.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 21 2015, 8:57pm)
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
May 21 2015, 9:09pm
Post #41 of 85
(497 views)
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Frodo in FOTR that he wonted to visit Lake town again, so Lake tow is probably rebuilt
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Eleniel
Tol Eressea
May 21 2015, 9:32pm
Post #42 of 85
(493 views)
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In the book Bard only takes the remnant of the town guard and any Laketowners able to fight to the Lonely Mountain. AS O-S said, the Master remained on the Lake shore with the women, children, elderly and infirm, building shelters with the aid of the Elvenking's people. The master didn't run off until after the Bo5A, when the gold had been shared out.
"Choosing Trust over Doubt gets me burned once in a while, but I'd rather be singed than hardened."
¯ Victoria Monfort
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arithmancer
Grey Havens
May 21 2015, 10:02pm
Post #43 of 85
(478 views)
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...seems to be, to me, never at the expense of anyone outside the Laketown refugee community . The point of any scene he is in is about someone else. At the start of the film, he is still there for the Master. On the lakeside, he establishes Bard as a reluctant leader when Bard does not want to be called King, and as a righteous one, when he prevents the crowd from lynching Alfrid on the spot. He has various later scenes with Bard, some of which inject a element of humor (which may or may not appeal to all viewers, e.g. Alfrid missing an entire army of Elves arriving.) His longest scene without Bard is the one with the women and children-again I felt this scene was about the resolve of the Laketowners as much as Alfrid.
When people say he is a foil for other characters, I think that is true. But I just want to clarify that to me, this means more than "sounding board". Percy, Braga, Hilda, the children - could all credibly be in conversations with Bard which convey information, serve as a sounding board so we the audience could learn what Bard is thinking, what he knows, etc. But Alfrid is a contrast. He tries to take over the Master's role. Then he tries to declare Bard King. And through his reactions to these gambits Bard is able to "show his quality".
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Glorfindela
Valinor
May 21 2015, 10:20pm
Post #44 of 85
(477 views)
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There's no justification for such an abomination, IMHO
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Philippa Boyens said in an interview that British like the humor more then Americans.
I love the humor and so did all in the cinema.
I think that's just her misconceived ideas about the British, quoted as some kind of justification for this abomination. I'm British and hated the gross humour (apart from that for the Trolls in AUJ, which I suppose was relatively appropriate). Absolutely no one in the cinema laughed at the gross bits on the many occasions when I saw the films. Presumably this was all a self-indulgence on PJ's part. I certainly don't see the need for it and it mars the films to a great extent. The misplaced gross aspects along with the terrible and unnecessary Legolas/Tauriel side story at the expense of characters that did have meaning and should have been developed and explained (such as Thranduil and Beorn) were by far the worst things about DoS and BoFA in my view.
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glor
Rohan
May 21 2015, 11:10pm
Post #45 of 85
(455 views)
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I think Alfrid served as contrast to another character who also lusted for gold.
Alfrid is pure cowardly greed, gold as simple self serving wealth, an end in itself, to serve oneself.
There are different types of greed, or lust for wealth, one is selfish, cowardly and meaningless, to be taken at any opportunity (Alfrid). The other, is about what it represents, it's meaning, power as duty, a heritage taken and now reclaimed, a desire and a burden that can lead to madness.
Both Thorin and Alfrid lusted for gold, greed like that can come from different places.
No mascara can survive BOTFA
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dormouse
Half-elven
May 21 2015, 11:12pm
Post #46 of 85
(461 views)
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I'm curious about your use of 'honest'....
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Aren't all the discussions here honest?
Anyway - Alfrid. First purpose, Master's lackey. Someone had to be there for the Master to interact with, to illustrate his character. That's pretty straightforward.
Second purpose: with the Master gone, Alfrid is used to highlight diffferent attitudes to power and office. His first thought is that if the Master's not there he will take charge himself - and we see just he feels about the people he's used to ordering about. Then he senses that Bard has what it takes to become the leader and he tries to attach himself to Bard. They use interactions between Bard and Alfrid to show Bard's qualities as leader. It's a simple contrast - Alfrid doesn't understand Bard so he keeps challenging him; this enables Bard to tell Alfrid, and us, what motivates him. No other character we saw in Laketown could have done this in the same way. The Master couldn't because if he had survived he would have resumed control, backed up by his own men who were on the boat with him.
Third purpose: they also use him to illustrate different responses to gold and treasure. Bard wants only what's owed to help the people of Laketown - he recognises that the treasure is cursed. Alfrid would like to get his hands on some gold to set himself up. This helps highlight the fact that something quite different is happening to Thorin. He has enough gold in the Mountain to fund a small kingdom but he doesn't want to use it - far from it, he won't part with a single coin.
Fourth purpose: practical. He's a useful general purpose character for scenes like the one where he challenges Gandalf, or when Gandalf sends him to watch Bilbo. Seems to me it was easier to use him than invent other characters - and the reason within the story that people keep giving him things to do is that everyone else is busy - he's the only one mooching around doing nothing.
Fifth purpose: humour. Some of his later scenes, particularly during the battle seem to be inserted as light relief. I'm thinking particularly of Alfrid in the dress. Up till then I think he plays a perfectly reasonable role in the drama, doing things someone would have had to do. At that ppoint I'm not so sure. I don't hate it but I could have done without it. But maybe other viewers would say they needed something to lighten the mood.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
May 21 2015, 11:42pm
Post #47 of 85
(448 views)
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I seem to recall there generally being laughter at the designated points from the audience in the cinema during my own viewings.
Which "gross" bits are you thinking of particularly?
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Milieuterrien
Rohan
May 22 2015, 12:25am
Post #48 of 85
(441 views)
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I was downbeat about seing a battle-centered movie. People killed, and many other, killed by boring orcs, who just can't do anything else than destroy.
Is Tolkien really lovable for his orcs ? I for one think that orcs are Tolkien's week point.
Even PJ and co felt the tidal bore of killing orcs and orcs and orcs.
Such a movie could have been simply horrendous.
Then we have Alfrid.
Should P Jackson have chosen a dwarf to put on the necessary comic relief like Gimli did (or will be) in LOTR ? No way.
Would an elf suit such a purpose ? No way.
Could PJ chose anybody else than a man ? No, he couldn't.
Had he chosen a woman, people would have complained about sexism.
PJ and Philippa and Fran were perfectly aware of those non-choices and they subverted it.
Turning Alfrid as a woman trying to escape the battle was nothing else more than a subverted hand on movie clichés.
I don't know about american or english people, but in France people laughed when Alfrid appeared.
Most 'movie specialists' went to see a Tolkien's movie (as if Tolkien could have done such a movie)
I think that's why no specialists even tried to explain why people laughed about Alfrid.
Because Alfrid wasn't expected at all by specialists.
He came in totally off any radar.
Maybe in some years from here, Alfrid will be seen for what he is : a pure Jacksonian character - In fact, the only one in the whole hexalogy.
(This post was edited by Milieuterrien on May 22 2015, 12:35am)
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
May 22 2015, 12:49am
Post #49 of 85
(435 views)
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The line I quoted said they went BACK to Laketown, which according to you didn't happen. Rebuilding a new town in a different location is not "going back." Sorry if I sound a little harsh, but I got trashed on another post for no reason and I feel like it's "jump on KDC day."
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Bishop
Gondor
May 22 2015, 1:45am
Post #50 of 85
(411 views)
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I don't know. Honest as in fair?
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So, maybe more than "He was perfect, I loved him so funny!!" or "He was the worst thing to happen to cinema ever!!". I'm enjoying all of the responses here.
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