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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
An honest discussion about Alfrid
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Bishop
Gondor


May 21 2015, 3:05pm

Post #1 of 85 (1522 views)
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An honest discussion about Alfrid Can't Post

I was watching TBOTFA the other night and I was trying to wrap my head around Alfrid. When filmmakers make a choice like that one has to believe there are good reasons. You don't just create a character and give them that much to do. There are professionals who understand how to craft films. But for the life of me I can't figure it out, so I'm curious about others opinions on it.

Who is Alfrid? What is his purpose in the film, and why is his character given more screen time than characters like Dain and Beorn? I'm not complaining but rather looking for some well considered ideas on what is going on with his inclusion.


(This post was edited by Bishop on May 21 2015, 3:06pm)


Smaug the iron
Gondor

May 21 2015, 3:15pm

Post #2 of 85 (1392 views)
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Well [In reply to] Can't Post

in DOS he was created so the Master has someone to talk to. And in BOTFA he was created as a fool to Bard,comedy and a person who only wants money (and spend it on his own, not like Thorin who only wants gold and not spend it).


AshNazg
Gondor


May 21 2015, 3:23pm

Post #3 of 85 (1392 views)
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Someone for characters to talk to... [In reply to] Can't Post

Alfrid is there initially to give the Master of Laketown someone to talk to, so the audience knows his thoughts and plans without making him talk to himself. - Almost all of the Master's scenes are alone with Alfrid, discussing their thoughts and it makes perfect sense that the Master would have employees, so it's a fairly welcome addition.

When the Master dies, it then becomes necessary for someone to listen to Bard's plans and to make Bard appear as a strong leader. By specifically passing Alfrid over as Bard's assistant it emphasises Bard as a mirror of the Master. We don't need to see Bard become king because it's implied by the way he now orders Alfrid around, similar to how the Master used to.

Here are a couple of examples of where Alfrid is use purely to convey a point to the audience:

Bard: There is only one place.

Alfrid: The Mountain? You are a genius, Sire. We can take refuge inside the Mountain. It might smell a bit of dragon, but the women could clean that up. It's be safe and warm and dry, and full of stores, bedding and clothing, the odd bit of gold.

Bard: What gold is in that Mountain is cursed. We will take only what was promised to us, only what we need to rebuild our lives.

Also:

Alfrid: Look Sire! The braziers are lit.
Bard: So, the company of Thorin Oakenshield survived.
Alfrid: Survived? You mean there's a bunch of Dwarves in there with all that gold?
Bard: I shouldn't worry, Alfrid. There's gold enough in that Mountain for all.

Without Alfrid in these scenes we wouldn't really know what's going on in Bard's head, what the plan is or what's happening in general. So for that reason, he's a great and useful inclusion.

The only real problem with Alfrid is the way that PJ presents him, particularly the use of bad humour, which turns a necessary character into a really annoying one.


(This post was edited by AshNazg on May 21 2015, 3:25pm)


Bishop
Gondor


May 21 2015, 3:25pm

Post #4 of 85 (1381 views)
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A lot of people wanted the gold / gems [In reply to] Can't Post

And had their own reasons for it. So you're suggesting that Alfrid was added as another person who wanted gold but was just there for comic relief? Do you think the story needed this echaracter, and if so how well do you think it worked?


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 21 2015, 3:26pm

Post #5 of 85 (1379 views)
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Alfrid and the Master of Lake-town [In reply to] Can't Post

Alfrid worked when he was the Master's henchman and sounding board. He was not a good stand-in for the Master when Jackson killed off the latter in the destruction of Esgaroth; Alfrid did not carriy the authority of his master and was a poor substitute for him, serving no purpose at that point than comedy relief. If Bard needed a second-in-command to talk to there was already the character of Percy.

Honestly, though, I thought that it was a mistake for Peter Jackson to kill off the Master when he did.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 21 2015, 3:29pm)


Bishop
Gondor


May 21 2015, 3:37pm

Post #6 of 85 (1369 views)
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I agree that he is a useful tool for narrative [In reply to] Can't Post

But did Alfrid need to be created for this? I would imagine any number of characters would function in this roll.

For example:
Legolas: What is your plan?
Bard: We go to the mountain to reclaim what is ours
Legolas: Uh oh. This could get ugly

Bofur: Thanks for letting us stay at your house. Sorry it burnt down
Bard: It's ok, we're going to take what is ours from your mountain
Bofur: No way! Peace out!

Random townsperson: You did this! You brought this upon us!
Bard: No! I didn't!
Random #2: No! He slayed the dragon!
Townspeople: King Bard!! We're with you! What's the plan!

What about his continued presence as the story developed?


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 21 2015, 3:51pm

Post #7 of 85 (1356 views)
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Alfrid is his Foil...even when Bard First gets to Laketown... [In reply to] Can't Post

PJ needed to flesh out Bard's character
So he created the character of Alfrid...

For us to know Bard, we needed to know Alfrid.

@ every turn of Events Bard does something Noble,
@ every turn of Events Alfrid does something Selfish.

For PJ, it was Economical to have One Bad Guy trying
to keep the status quo & the Town in ruins.

The Master was dis-engaged from his people
thinking he was IMPERIOUS in his position,
so PJ had to have a Henchman to keep him there.

Laketown is a slum. The closest thing to medieval europe,
where people were defecating into their rivers or canals,
long before in-door plumbing.
This was shown quickly by the toilet scene,
& Alfrid tossing the Master's the Bed pan into the Lake.

EACH character with his or her Sub-plot thread
needs someone to play off of...
so Bard got Alfrid.

You can't know Bard thoughts or motives unless
he verbalises them...
To WHO? Alfrid, the Dwarves and/or his children.

What is fun, is Percy & Hilda Blanca are there to reinforce Bard's position:
who doesn't want to be be a Leader, but by default?
becomes one.
Alfrid's character Arch is over..We know he will die in the EE.

Lets just hope there is more about Bard & his children.

One side note? of interest;

When they are gondoliering though the Canals, it seems that the Lake
is only a few feet deep. So Bomby supposes that only a few feet down is
a Pile of discarded junk furniture, clothes, fish bones, etc..
A PILE of tossed of things that have accumulated over the years.

The Master says it... "It Smells of Fish oil & Tar.."
Laketown was smelly place.

{Sorry Bomby was typing & missed the Initial responces}

Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"

(This post was edited by Bombadil on May 21 2015, 4:02pm)


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


May 21 2015, 4:13pm

Post #8 of 85 (1325 views)
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Masterīs book is a perfect coda for the theme of greed [In reply to] Can't Post

He could have been shown walking in the wild with that amount of gold beyond he could carry, opposite to Bilbo who refuses his part

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer

Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero



Smaug the iron
Gondor

May 21 2015, 4:19pm

Post #9 of 85 (1328 views)
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Alfrid reasons [In reply to] Can't Post

Alfrid thinks the gold gives him power.
The Master had a lot of gold and he rule the town.
Alfrid is nothing without the Master so he thinks If he gets the gold he can role over the town.


Bishop
Gondor


May 21 2015, 4:21pm

Post #10 of 85 (1318 views)
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Well yes, some ending for the character would have been better [In reply to] Can't Post

Alfrid was greedy, and certainly one-note. But there was enough of him in the film that his story should have had some kind of ending. I know, I know, I KNOW! EE will fix it.

I also don't know if I'm buying that his created roll as a sound board/foil for Bard was necessary or effective. I'm appreciating the responses here though.


Bishop
Gondor


May 21 2015, 4:23pm

Post #11 of 85 (1316 views)
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I didn't really get that at all [In reply to] Can't Post

Alfrid is greedy, absolutely. But I'm not seeing where he thinks that gold is the path to power. He just seems generally like a sloppy opportunist.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 21 2015, 4:31pm

Post #12 of 85 (1308 views)
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Jackson did it... [In reply to] Can't Post

It was Peter Jackson's decision to make the Master so distant and imperious. Tolkien's Master of Lake-town remains an elected official, even though it is apparent that he is much more beholden to the Merchant Houses and his own benefit than to the common people.

Alfrid worked best when he was the Master's lackey. When he was enforcing the orders he made a good foil for Bard, not so much after the Master's demise; at that point Alfrid lost all of his authority and became a much weaker character. If we needed someone to question Bard's decisions after the death of the Master, Peter could have kept the guardsman Braga around--or better yet he could have kept the Master alive. I much prefer how Tolkien dealt with the Master in any case.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Bishop
Gondor


May 21 2015, 4:41pm

Post #13 of 85 (1290 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

That's why I framed this around BOTFA. Alfrid's role in DOS made sense. Jackson did some significant and effective world building with Laketown, and Alfrid was an interesting character as a connective element between Bard and the Master. But BOTFA is a very different story, and I'm still trying to figure out how and why the filmmakers decided to take Alfrid as far as they did. Especially if his presence is at the expense of other characters due to running time constraints.

Is it possible that they actually didn't have enough smaller bits to flesh out the running time, so they padded Alfrid? Get it? Padded? Har har.


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 21 2015, 4:47pm

Post #14 of 85 (1284 views)
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Alfrid in Dale? [In reply to] Can't Post

Does change the Course of the events.

1. As Look-out he misses the Arrival of 700 Elves?

2. He was supposed to warn Gandalf if Bilbo
tried to escape back to the Mountain?

3. He is supposed to take care of Bard's Children.

Makes sense that Alfrid is there
so the Battle is NEVER a sure thing.

Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 21 2015, 4:47pm

Post #15 of 85 (1285 views)
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Not this. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Is it possible that they actually didn't have enough smaller bits to flesh out the running time, so they padded Alfrid? Get it? Padded? Har har.


I don't think so. It's been written that Peter Jackson filmed hero moments for all of the Dwarves of Thorin's Comany during the Battle of Five Armies. We know that there was a chariot sequence that was left out of the theatrical cut, as well as a death scene for Alfrid. I'm sure that there was no lack of footage that could have replaced many of Alfrid's bits.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Bishop
Gondor


May 21 2015, 4:51pm

Post #16 of 85 (1281 views)
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Except [In reply to] Can't Post

Many of those things would surely take up a wealth of screen time opposed to smaller throw-away parts that require no real development. For example, the chariot must have left quite a gap once removed.


Bishop
Gondor


May 21 2015, 4:58pm

Post #17 of 85 (1275 views)
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None of those things are logical or necessary to me [In reply to] Can't Post

1. As Look-out he misses the Arrival of 700 Elves
Yes, Alfrid misses this. But it's impossible to imagine Alfrid was the ONLY lookout. Bard was just giving him something to do. This is a reflection of Alfrid's lazy character, not so much a monumental event in the story.

2. He was supposed to warn Gandalf if Bilbo tried to escape back to the Mountain?
This was going to happen to anyone who is unable to see something that is invisible. :)

3. He is supposed to take care of Bard's Children.
His complete incompetency in this matter has no bearing whatsoever on their fate, though Bard's lack of judgement in doing this is ponderous. Perhaps Alfrid was added to show that Bard is indeed fallable and is capable of making dimwitted decisions like everyone else?



Spriggan
Tol Eressea

May 21 2015, 5:07pm

Post #18 of 85 (1265 views)
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Jackson usually accesses populations through two or three "avatars" [In reply to] Can't Post

I didn't find Alfrid's role particularly odd in terms of the rest of TH and LOTR. As Jackson has done on any number of occasions he exemplifies a population through a small number of exemplar characters. Usually these characters who represent different facets of the population and frequently counterpoint one another. In that sense Alfrid's role didn't seem out of the ordinary in BOFA.

For me, the questions surrounding him are not about his function but about the uneven tone of BOFA, which is noticeable with Alfrid as he sits at the comic extreme of the spectrum.


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 21 2015, 5:16pm

Post #19 of 85 (1256 views)
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Well, there is ONE more thing to consider? [In reply to] Can't Post

Bard & the people of Laketown have NEVER been to
The City of Dale during their lifetimes...
Too afraid to go near the Dragon.

SSOoo..they are all doing something
NONE of them had done before..in a Place new to them.

Would you make the right decisions? if you were in a place
that is just a LEGEND from your past..

In thinking about this...There might be some extra shots where
Hilda Blanca & Percy get to talk about what they remember?

THAT would be WAyCOOL!

The actress playing Hilda is well known in New Zealand &
The actor playing Percy was the Acting Coach for the
Dwarf doubles..{If you look deep in the Credits}

More from them?
would be greatly appreciated.

PJ did this with "Mister Worrywort" & "Mister Grubb", the Auctioneer @ BagEND..
adding in Kiwi actor legends
for quick cameos, was SSOoo..Cool.

ROCK ON! New ZEALAND..
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Smaug the iron
Gondor

May 21 2015, 5:18pm

Post #20 of 85 (1254 views)
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I diden't mean [In reply to] Can't Post

that it is what we see on screen but it can be what PJ and co are thinking.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 21 2015, 5:21pm

Post #21 of 85 (1250 views)
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I agree [In reply to] Can't Post

Alfrid basically assumed the role of the Master in the book, in that he stole the gold & ran off with it. Okay, fine, but other than that he was just a drag on the story. I read somewhere that Ryan Gage was originally cast as a Hobbit, but PJ liked his performance so well that he elevated him to a bigger supporting role. He did the same with Aidan Turner, originally cast as an elf but then they decided he could do better. I'd say PJ was right on Aidan, but went overboard with Ryan/Alfrid.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


AshNazg
Gondor


May 21 2015, 5:24pm

Post #22 of 85 (1258 views)
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As I said, Alfrid's continued inclusion is to create a mirror... [In reply to] Can't Post

Using other characters (like Legolas, Hilda or Percy) would serve the function fine, but no other character would've created that dynamic of Bard standing in The Master's place as leader. It creates an interesting contrast. So while it wasn't necessary to keep Alfrid alive, I think the concept behind doing so was a good one.

The thing is, once you've decided to keep him alive for this reason you then have to justify his existence so that he isn't a two-dimensional talking post - He has to be given something to do. I think that's really where PJ ran into some problems.

Alfrid stands in an interesting position in these films, between two very different leaders. He's always trying to stand closest to the most powerful person in the community, in a selfish attempt to reap any rewards from said person, and potentially steal their power. He doesn't like or agree with The Master or Bard, he is only attracted to their power and is willing to completely abandon his own values or morals, and will completely change his attitudes if it means he's close to the person in control.

That's actually a fairly interesting, quite slimy and dislikeable character and much more than a two-dimensional talking post. I think the real problem here is that, even though Bard clearly sees through Alfrid's pretence. He continues to tell Alfrid his plans and sets Alfrid on night-watch etc. Despite having no trust in the man. It doesn't make sense. That coupled with the terrible humour makes him seem pointless

I think a more interesting take would be for Bard to immediately clock that Alfrid is no good and just ignore him. They could then continue Alfrid's arc from where we see him on the shore - desperately trying to gain respect fro the citizens that hate him and claiming that the power should fall to the "Master's deputy". I think in the book Laketown divides into two communities, one stays in Dale and one goes back to Laketown? So it could have been fun to maybe see Alfrid trying to scrabble together the few people to follow him back to the ruins of Laketown. But I digress.

I think it would have been awkward to have Alfrid there to create this mirroring dynamic and then have him vanish when the battle starts and not mention him again. The audience wants to see a character like that get his comeuppance. And in the TE we get to see him humiliated in women's clothing. In the EE we'll see more.

I think it makes sense, but I still don't like it. It could have been done better.


(This post was edited by AshNazg on May 21 2015, 5:31pm)


Goldeneye
Lorien


May 21 2015, 5:26pm

Post #23 of 85 (1245 views)
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Alfrid [In reply to] Can't Post

I feel that any "foil" that was needed for Bard could have been perfectly filled by the Master himself. Just like in the book except expanded upon. Imagine how much more interesting it would have been to see the Master survive Smaug's attack, and slowly watch his rule slip away as the people begin looking to Bard for leadership? Bard is reluctant to be a leader but the Master becomes even more envious and greedy, to the point where he betrays the safety of his people for gold and power. And in the end, he dies from his cowardice...running away from the battle and being killed by an orc or troll. A similar arc to Alfrid expect better. Plus PJ went through the trouble of adding all those scenes with Alfrid at the expense of other characters...and he STILL didn't conclude his character arc!

Keeping the Master alive would have made for a very interesting dynamic with Bard. And if they really wanted some comedic elements, they could still have done so. I imagine the Master trying to chime in during the conversations between Thranduil and Gandalf, and coming off like a total halfwit. Eventually like the townspeople, Thranduil and Gandalf simply ignore him and decide to council with Bard instead. SO much more interesting than what we got with Alfrid!

For my Hobbit fanedit, I managed to remove Alfrid almost entirely from the film. He does not appear after the shore scene after Smaug's attack, and the plot/story is not impacted in the least bit by his absence. Alfrid was literally a waste of screen time.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 21 2015, 5:33pm

Post #24 of 85 (1239 views)
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The ONLY reason I can think of [In reply to] Can't Post

is that they killed off the Master in, IMO, a fitting way - but then what? Alfrid had to take the Master's place. The only REAL reason to do this is to avoid a potential power struggle between Bard and the supposedly "Rightful" Master. Remember that Bard insisted "I'm not the Master of this town - where is he?" This suggests that Bard would have continued to be subservient to a guy that has neither the desire nor the ability to take care of the survivors. Granted, the town could have (probably would have) refused to follow the Master and followed Bard instead. Well, that was always the Master's fear - that he would be underminied by Bard, so he would have logically tried to do something about that, and THERE is a subplot the movie simply didn't have time for. My only real complaint about Alfrid is that there was just too much of him. He's a greedy, sniviling coward, and we got all that in the first few minutes of the film, no need to go on about it. Alfrid could have completely disappeared between the time they headed for Dale and the time he stole the gold, and the point would have still been made.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 21 2015, 5:34pm

Post #25 of 85 (1236 views)
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Yeah, Stephen Fry is good at comedy! [In reply to] Can't Post

It certainly could have been done that way - missed opportunity, IMO.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association

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