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Bumblingidiot
Rohan
May 19 2015, 2:17pm
Post #51 of 62
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if you want to see this sort of thing nowadays, just watch the leader of some supposedly peaceful, democratic country paying homage to some crooked gangster who happens to be in charge of an area with a lot of oil.
"Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear."
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Avandel
Half-elven
May 20 2015, 7:36am
Post #52 of 62
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I don't know why, for myself, the book Thranduil captivated me so much - perhaps my vision of him is tangled with all the other legends Lee Pace has mentioned in preparing for the part. Wise, ageless, fey, unfathomable, beautiful.
And cast perfectly IMO. Well, yes, PJ has surprised people before, but IMO there is no reason that Thranduil would not be present, at the end. I am curious to see if Legolas is present, tho. The movie makes it seem as though Legolas is just leaving, but he DID save Thorin and he did fight, so I wonder if he will stay at least long enough to pay his respects, and at least witness the return of the gems.
And I would like to know if Gloin got his locket back!
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
May 20 2015, 11:49am
Post #53 of 62
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I'm enjoying this conversation!
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I haven't been able to contribute much, but I'm following this discussion. Very thoughtful points all around!
I just wanted to throw in the idea, since the prologue of AUJ is under discussion, that perhaps old Bilbo isn't as reliable a narrator as we might believe him to be, when he tells us:
"Thror took it as a sign: a sign that his right to rule was divine. All would pay homage to him, even the great Elvenking, Thranduil."
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 20 2015, 12:17pm
Post #54 of 62
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we must assume that Bilbo's source of information on this point was the dwarves telling him their history along the journey, and they're going to be prejudiced in their own favor when it comes to anything to do with elves.
Being a stickler for language, I should also mention that there is more than one definition of the word "homage". It can include paying tribute as to a feudal lord, but it also has the secondary meaning of paying honor and respect which is due to a great and mighty individual.
I see this being a case of the second definition, as the first is clearly not appropriate to the relationship between Thror and Thranduil even in the movies. Thranduil was never a vassal of Thror. But when one monarch enters another's domain, a show of respect and honor is expected. And that's what I think was being said here - Thranduil came to Thror's court, made his obligatory gestures of "great respect and esteem", and likely had established a sort of "most favored nation" trading status with the dwarves. Or at least he tried to.
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 20 2015, 12:49pm
Post #55 of 62
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Narrative bias - excellent point
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I just wanted to throw in the idea, since the prologue of AUJ is under discussion, that perhaps old Bilbo isn't as reliable a narrator as we might believe him to be, when he tells us:
"Thror took it as a sign: a sign that his right to rule was divine. All would pay homage to him, even the great Elvenking, Thranduil."
Excellent points RD. And I agree that Bilbo is allowed a narrative bias here - which is a great leap of characterization I think, versus mere, flat exposition. His slant towards Erebor being 'the greatest kingdom in Middle-earth' is certainly debatable factually, but its Bilbo's opinion. And when he says that you will not find its like in the world today, I think too that is a classic retrospective statement made in great age and experience - that things were never as good as 'when I remember them'. A very Bilbo-centric view, which I love that we get; because of course at this point Erebor is rebuilt, and re-kinged. But to Bilbo, the old days are the grandest and that's the feel I get from the prologue.
So your point is very well taken.
(This post was edited by Brethil on May 20 2015, 12:50pm)
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Bombadil
Half-elven
May 20 2015, 1:30pm
Post #56 of 62
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"All great Stories deserve SOME embellishment.."
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One of Bom's Favorite lines in all of the 6 films.
Short, snappy & to the POINT.
Kinda amazed this hasn't been brought up here, yet?
Bilbo's writings, songs & poems, all have a "Flair for the Imagination".
If we are to believe he didn't write this down until 60 year AFTER,
Of course, his recollection would have taken on some Embellishment.
AS well, he was NOT present for all of this STORY,
EXAMPLE: He was unconscious during the "Battles to the Death"
of our 3 Durin's, & the Legolas/Tauriel fight with Bolg.
so what has been re-called,does have some Dwalin, some Balin, some Bofur,
& other remembrances.
..................................
Now, it would be Cool to think that
The Visit by Gandalf & Balin to BagEND later, could be one source
for Bilbo to get a...More complete story
from those two?
www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"
(This post was edited by Bombadil on May 20 2015, 1:33pm)
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dormouse
Half-elven
May 20 2015, 1:39pm
Post #57 of 62
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I hadn't taken that into account at all, but you're right. I'd almost forgotten that this was Bilbo recalling the story rather than a statement of facts from above. I'd say that's a spuerb contribution - makes a lot of difference!
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dormouse
Half-elven
May 20 2015, 1:50pm
Post #58 of 62
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This also hadn't occurred to me....
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The scene relating directly to the history of Erebor my mind immediately seized on the technical, historical meaning, 'doing homage' always being a gesture from a lesser to a greater. That was how it struck me when I first heard the line and it didn't fit. But if it was meant in the sense of 'paying his respects' - effectively like a state visit, which would at some point have to be returned. My mind is now playing with delicious images of Thror and his people paying their respects in Mirkwood and Thranduil enthroned - they'd get a terrible crick in their necks looking up to him!
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dormouse
Half-elven
May 20 2015, 1:54pm
Post #59 of 62
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...."you will not find its like in the world today." All that malachite and gold, the massive statues and tapestries and the vastness of it all would have made a huge impact on Bilbo, wouldn't they, even though it was in a state of decay.
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Silverlode
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 20 2015, 11:44pm
Post #60 of 62
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Yep, I think "state visit" is it exactly.
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Pomp and ceremony and goodwill gestures and the right hand of friendship and cementing the bond between two great nations and photo ops and so on and so on. And there's plenty of room in there for the dwarves to be secretly relishing the spectacle of the Elvenking being all complimentary and respectful of Thror. And yes, by rights, there ought to have been a reciprocal royal procession of Thror to Mirkwood and equally lavish expressions of esteem toward Thranduil, and possibly there was before the dragon sickness took hold. After all, if Thranduil warned Thror of what his obsession could bring, they must have had more interaction and known each other better than the brief glimpses we were shown.
As to the dwarves looking up to Thranduil enthroned, perhaps the Elves would be gracious enough to provide boxes to stand on... 
We as Tolkien fans are used to Tolkien's very precise usage of words and being able to construct detailed arguments based on that, but frankly, the writers of these films are not linguists, let alone philologists, and sometimes their choice of words leaves something to be desired. There are lines in both trilogies which show a modern thought pattern and usage rather than the more archaic style of Tolkien. I put "pay homage" in the same category as "hunt some orc"; they're both expressed in a modern style which stand out by comparison to any lines from the books.
Silverlode
Roads go ever ever on
Under cloud and under star
Yet feet that wandering have gone
Turn at last to home afar.
Eyes that fire and sword have seen
And horror in the halls of stone
Look at last on meadows green
And trees and hills they long have known.
(This post was edited by Silverlode on May 20 2015, 11:45pm)
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 21 2015, 1:14am
Post #61 of 62
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A really good point there, Bom.
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If we are to believe he didn't write this down until 60 year AFTER,
Of course, his recollection would have taken on some Embellishment.
AS well, he was NOT present for all of this STORY,
EXAMPLE: He was unconscious during the "Battles to the Death"
of our 3 Durin's, & the Legolas/Tauriel fight with Bolg.
so what has been re-called,does have some Dwalin, some Balin, some Bofur,
& other remembrances.
And quite true. In which case, with Thorin gone, I should think much of that story comes from Balin - with his own unavoidable bias interjected as well. A tapestry of character's feelings then, especially for the bits that get filled in.
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Yes - I think it changed Bilbo forever. As it was meant to.
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