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arithmancer
Grey Havens
May 21 2015, 10:15pm
Post #26 of 48
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...he might have reasoned they seemed to be generally headed South, and so waited near the river Anduinat the borders of Lorien...?
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 22 2015, 1:44am
Post #29 of 48
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Ah, yes, the ‘living rock’ and ‘stone’
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Got me to thinking about this word (living). “No living man may hinder me!” The word ‘living’ is unnecessary. “No man may hinder me!” Here (and elsewhere) he uses ‘living’ to enhance an otherwise bland declaration. Also if we take the sentence quite literally, “No living man may hinder me!”, we could somewhat jestingly say that the Witch King would be in deep trouble from a DEAD man! – "A 'dead' man may hinder me!" Now how would Gandalf have fared on Amon Sul if he had a ‘Dead Man of Dunharrow’ at his side?
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 22 2015, 2:46am
Post #30 of 48
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Redirected force (talking shop here)
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I'm also admiring Tolkien's care for detail in this matter. The injures described seem very feasible to me: the mesh of the chain mail ought to spread the force of the blow (so avoiding a puncture wound) but I suppose it wouldn't redirect the force of the blow very much, so that energy has to go somewhere (in this case the energy goes into flexing Frodo's ribs and hurling him into the wall). (c.c.f female fantasy armour: breastplates - in more than one meaning of the word - with those deeply impractical bikini or bustier designs. But those, I guess, are really aimed at redirecting eyeballs, not impact weapons...) One thing not often accounted for is deceleration injury: in that sense, because no armor will help you. Its the result of the inertial energy of tissues and fluids that continue to move in a given direction and are suddenly stopped. There is a bounce-back and/or tearing effect depending on the speed of both the progress and the cessation of movement (= total impact force) and it can result in internal tearing, contusion and ultimately even severe brain injuries. The classic is the MVA or blunt force concussion, where the brain is bounced about, and the actual contusion is on the opposite side of the direction of the insult. Frodo feeling light-headed, as Sam was, might have made this inclusive of concussion, which I would expect; but Frodo's injuries are concentrated in his chest. So in his case the decelerative-origin pulmonary contusions (no laughing matter at all, people with that type of injury - very often MVA drivers hitting the steering wheel - are often placed on ventilators until they heal) as well as rib injuries may have caused his shortness of breath. And yes - NOW we see the point of that Hawt Girl Armor. "A diversion".
(This post was edited by Brethil on May 22 2015, 2:53am)
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 22 2015, 2:52am
Post #31 of 48
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We see an evolution of Gimli and Legolas here, post-Moria. The conversation they have after Nimrodel's song seem to indicate a thawing...even a sort of accord, as Legolas does not blame the Dwarves for the rise of evil and Gimli does not mock the Elvish way of sleeping in trees. Just time, or an effect of being in Lothlorien? Or something else? Are Legolas and Gimli being trained and healed? They've been travelling with Gandalf, visiting Elrond in Rivendell, and are now approaching Lothlorien. So they've been around all three of the Elven rings, not to mention the elessar. Gimli and Legolas's friendship is finally realized right after they meet Galadriel. Yes, that's exactly what I was wondering Oliphaunt; if the movement towards friendship is an expression of 'healing' and a return of sibling-hood of the races, who are both ultimately Children of Eru (even if one is adopted, and rather red-headed-stepchild at that.) Both the true King and the land of Lorien - powered by Nenya - have deep healing powers. One wonders!
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 22 2015, 2:54am
Post #32 of 48
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If we start discussing billboards
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leading into Lothlorien, I fear unmitigated silliness will follow. And as you posted in FB, you can't go there to complain either because its been infiltrated. The horror.
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 22 2015, 3:06am
Post #33 of 48
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...he might have reasoned they seemed to be generally headed South, and so waited near the river Anduinat the borders of Lorien...? and I note the area where Gollum and the Orcs cross Nimrodel, is right on the outskirts of entering the deeper precincts of Lorien. So Gollum had to cross Nimrodel to scrabble at the tree-base, but would he cross Celebrant? If not, I think you have the right of it, and he would have been forced south and watched the Anduin.
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 22 2015, 3:08am
Post #34 of 48
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Part of me likes the romantic (but I believe improbable) idea that his spirit somehow came to Cerin Amroth, maybe lingering there and waiting for Arwen, so they depart together, like Beren & Luthien. But I keep thinking that's more wishful thinking than authorial intent. Since JRRT felt the tale of Arwen and Aragorn is so important to the saga - do they get the same supernatural pass, beyond life and love, that Beren and Luthien get? But the way its written, its just a wisp of suggestion. And very evocative, plus having that hint of jeopardy for Aragorn.
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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 22 2015, 12:00pm
Post #35 of 48
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Beyond the circles of the world
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Since JRRT felt the tale of Arwen and Aragorn is so important to the saga - do they get the same supernatural pass, beyond life and love, that Beren and Luthien get? I want it to be so! Aragorn told Arwen to hope beyond death. Surely he didn't get it wrong.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 22 2015, 1:41pm
Post #36 of 48
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The Batman/Adam West version of Lorien?
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In that 1960's TV show of Batman, everything was very helpfully labelled ("Secret Headquarters" etc.)
~~~~~~ "nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' " Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!" My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358 This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 22 2015, 1:58pm
Post #37 of 48
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Since JRRT felt the tale of Arwen and Aragorn is so important to the saga - do they get the same supernatural pass, beyond life and love, that Beren and Luthien get? I want it to be so! Aragorn told Arwen to hope beyond death. Surely he didn't get it wrong. Surely not. The case of Beren and Luthien was unique. And even though they were granted second lives, those were mortal lives and the couple eventually died again and passed on into whatever afterlife is intended for mortal Men.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 22 2015, 2:03pm
Post #38 of 48
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Yes, that is exactly the point. "Whatever afterlife is intended" is the hope beyond death. Aragorn dies without fear because he has this unshakable hope.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 22 2015, 2:16pm
Post #39 of 48
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Luthien was still an Elf (and half Maia!) when she died of grief and passed into the Halls of Mandos. Arwen has already surrendered her immortality and chosen to live (and die) as a mortal woman. I thought that you were asking if Aragorn and Arwen might have been granted a second life, perhaps on Tol Eressea, before meeting their final deaths. Again, I don't think that would have been the case. Unlike Beren and Luthien, they both lived long and full lives in Middle-earth both together and apart.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 22 2015, 3:13pm
Post #41 of 48
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Had there been billboards along the road from Bree to Rivendell
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the hobbits could have scurried from one to another and hidden behind them from the Black Riders and had a much safer journey. On the other hand, the Black Riders could have hidden behind them too while planning an ambush, and wouldn't that be awkward if they ran into each other that way?! I suppose there's a good reason why communities ban billboards in open country. Eagles could fly into them unexpectedly, and then you'd never get the Ring to Mt Doom that way.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 22 2015, 3:47pm
Post #42 of 48
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"I am ..." "......Hodor.." "meep..." "...achu!"
~~~~~~ "nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' " Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!" My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358 This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 22 2015, 3:48pm
Post #43 of 48
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not so much "shop talk" as "shock talk"! Interesting insight into Frodo's light-headedness! //
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~~~~~~ "nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' " Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!" My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358 This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 22 2015, 7:09pm
Post #44 of 48
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"He heard faintly a sound like sniffing..."
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Hammond &Scull suggest that this bit (Gollum presumably scrabbling at the base of Frodo's tree) is the event foreseen in Frodo's Crickhollow Dream. Hmm- maybe.
~~~~~~ "nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' " Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!" My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358 This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 23 2015, 1:50pm
Post #45 of 48
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Luthien was still an Elf (and half Maia!) when she died of grief and passed into the Halls of Mandos It is my understanding that Luthien, together with Beren, died after a brief, but lovely, mortal life together. That's why Arwen "made the choice of Luthien" - to accept a mortal death so she wouldn't be separated from her beloved during his life or after his death. Luthien and Arwen truly died and left the world. So Luthien died twice. Or so I thought...
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 23 2015, 2:13pm
Post #46 of 48
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However, it was Luthien's second death that was her mortal death. When she first died of grief, it was as an Elf. Arwen only gets the one.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 29 2015, 12:13pm
Post #48 of 48
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"He heard a sound like drooling and slobbering."//
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