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** LotR Chapter Discussion, Book II: Lothlorien, part I **
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Brethil
Half-elven


May 19 2015, 12:36am

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** LotR Chapter Discussion, Book II: Lothlorien, part I ** Can't Post

Greetings Fellowship of the Room!


Elizabeth brought us out of the other side of Moria, and the Fellowship heads for safety...though not everyone may see Lothlorien as 'safe'.


I thought I would begin this week's discussion with a sample of quotes or snippets from the chapter, that are intriguing. Later this week I also want to explore Nimrodel and Lothlorien history in relation to the chapter, as well as the imagery used here.


So, for a start... Wink




'What did you see?' said Pippin to Sam, but Sam was too deep in thought to answer.

What is your impression of this line, after looking into Kheled-zaram - what is it that Sam contemplating, and why? Are we meant to draw a conclusion, or not?



"Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who oppose him. Yet so little faith and trust do we find now in the world beyond Lothlorien, unless maybe in Rivendell, that we dare not by our own trust endanger our land. We live upon an island amid many perils, and our hands are more often upon the bowstring than upon the harp."

The best representation of both Sauron and his tutor Melkor's strategy to divide and conquer?



'But the Dwarves did not make the evil', said Gimli.
' I said not so; yet evil came,' answered Legolas sadly.
...'And even in these latter days dwelling in the trees might be thought safer than sitting on the ground,' said Gimli.


We see an evolution of Gimli and Legolas here, post-Moria. The conversation they have after Nimrodel's song seem to indicate a thawing...even a sort of accord, as Legolas does not blame the Dwarves for the rise of evil and Gimli does not mock the Elvish way of sleeping in trees. Just time, or an effect of being in Lothlorien? Or something else?



"Perilous indeed ... fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them."

So Aragorn says to Boromir: yet they DO bring evil with them, the physical manifestation of the darkest evil yet seen in Middle-earth. Is Aragorn making an implication about Boromir here and thus ignoring this fact, or is the evil of the Ring not considered a danger wihtout a host?
I like too the symbolism here: thus the serpent enters Paradise, with no evil intent by its bearers, but come it does. That temptation will affect both Galadriel and Frodo in different ways - thoughts?



'And taking Frodo's hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as living man.'

Is the implication then, (which can only be seen in retrospective reads) that he returns to meet Arwen after her death? If not, how do you read this sentence - so full of potential meaning?









(This post was edited by Brethil on May 19 2015, 12:39am)


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 19 2015, 2:51pm

Post #2 of 48 (3942 views)
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No mere mirror, that Mirrormere. Why Frodo? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
“They stooped over the dark water. At first they could see nothing. Then slowly they saw the forms of the encircling mountains mirrored in a profound blue, and the peaks were like plumes of white flame above them; beyond there was a space of sky. There like jewels sunk in the deep shone glinting stars, though sunlight was in the sky above. Of their own stooping forms no shadow could be seen.

“O Kheled-zâram fair and wonderful!” said Gimli. “There lies the Crown of Durin till he wakes. Farewell!”


So what did Sam see?

The "They" used in this passage ("They stooped..."; "Then slowly they saw...") seems worth considering.

Reading 1: Tolkien as omniscient narrator, able to tell us definitively what happened. They all saw the same thing, so Sam saw just what is described - a water surface that shows a crown of stars, when physics suggests it should not.

Reading 2: Notes that Tolkien usually avoids being the omniscient narrator. He is pretending to be the mere scholarly editor of a manuscript prepared by participants in this adventure (plus a chain of further copyists and interpreters). Possibly the "They" still keeps things straightforward "They discussed later what each of them saw, and they all agreed that they had seen..." But this reading leaves open the UUT (Utterly Untestable Theory) that Sam had some private vision, & that is what made him pensive.

Either way, the matter is not discussed again in the book, leaving us to wonder.

Should we also be wondering why Frodo is the member of the company who Gimli invites to come see the wonderful lake? Is this just co-incidence (e.g. Frodo was nearest): or did Gimli hope that Frodo, as Ringbearer might benefit in some special way from the experience?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Darkstone
Immortal


May 19 2015, 3:04pm

Post #3 of 48 (3947 views)
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"By strange paths" [In reply to] Can't Post

Faerie is a perilous land, and in it are pitfalls for the unwary and dungeons for the overbold.
-JRR Tolkien, On Fairy-stories

'What did you see?' said Pippin to Sam, but Sam was too deep in thought to answer.

What is your impression of this line, after looking into Kheled-zaram - what is it that Sam contemplating,….


Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.
-The Land of Shadow

(Often a sudden epiphany, like an overnight success, requires a bit of time to develop.)


… and why?

He realizes he’s “only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all”.


Are we meant to draw a conclusion, or not?

Of course!


"Folly it may seem," said Haldir. "Indeed in nothing is the power of the Dark Lord more clearly shown than in the estrangement that divides all those who oppose him. Yet so little faith and trust do we find now in the world beyond Lothlorien, unless maybe in Rivendell, that we dare not by our own trust endanger our land. We live upon an island amid many perils, and our hands are more often upon the bowstring than upon the harp."

The best representation of both Sauron and his tutor Melkor's strategy to divide and conquer?


One wonders whether the estrangement is the working of the Enemy, or is just something naturally inherent in people. It’s often easier to blame an external force (“The devil made me do it!”) rather than take responsibility for one’s own actions. The former casts one as a helpless victim against irresistible forces, the latter means the power to change and correct the situation lies within one’s own hands. It’s often easier to accept evil than work for the good. Which, as you so thoughtfully do, brings us to Gimli and Legolas…


'But the Dwarves did not make the evil', said Gimli.
' I said not so; yet evil came,' answered Legolas sadly.
...'And even in these latter days dwelling in the trees might be thought safer than sitting on the ground,' said Gimli.

We see an evolution of Gimli and Legolas here, post-Moria. The conversation they have after Nimrodel's song seem to indicate a thawing...even a sort of accord, as Legolas does not blame the Dwarves for the rise of evil and Gimli does not mock the Elvish way of sleeping in trees. Just time,…


Shared danger, terror, and grief can bring people together.


… or an effect of being in Lothlorien?

I’m tempted to say in spite of Lothlorien. I’d think The Dwarf would be all sorts of apprehensive and guarded this near The Heart of Elvendom on Earth.


Or something else?

Honoring Gandalf’s last request of them:

But I beg you two, Legolas and Gimli, at least to be friends…


"Perilous indeed ... fair and perilous; but only evil need fear it, or those who bring some evil with them."

Boromir has a point:

’By strange paths has this Company been led, and so far to evil fortune. Against my will we passed under the shades of Moria, to our loss.’

No surprise that there’s tension when a Man Of Reason comes along on A Fool’s Errand. That’s exactly how it is with entering Faerie. Boromir knows the hazards. He’s making perfect sense.


So Aragorn says to Boromir: yet they DO bring evil with them, the physical manifestation of the darkest evil yet seen in Middle-earth. Is Aragorn making an implication about Boromir here…

I think the warning is meant for everybody. It’d be interesting to assign cardinal sins like wrath, pride, gluttony, envy, sloth, etc to what the various members of the Fellowship are feeling, especially after the death of Gandalf.


…and thus ignoring this fact,…

Rather I would think acknowledging this fact. The ring finds your weakness and works on it. After the shock of Gandalf’s death the members of the Fellowship would be especially vulnerable.


… or is the evil of the Ring not considered a danger without a host?

Really, everyone is a host, it’s just who is carrying at the moment.


I like too the symbolism here: thus the serpent enters Paradise, with no evil intent by its bearers, but come it does.

Kinda like a parasite hitching a ride on a vector.


That temptation will affect both Galadriel and Frodo in different ways - thoughts?

The ring acts upon what’s already there: Frodo’s hopelessness for the Ringquest and Galadriel’s lust for the ring. Ironically, “Oft evil will shall evil mar”, and the two sins cancel each other out in the end. The ring overreached, as evil usually does.


'And taking Frodo's hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as living man.'

Is the implication then, (which can only be seen in retrospective reads) that he returns to meet Arwen after her death?


Well, if the ghost of Gorlim could appear to Beren, and that of Beleg appear to Túrin, then why couldn’t the ghost of Elessar appear to Arwen?


If not, how do you read this sentence - so full of potential meaning?

Well, similar language is used elsewhere:

But lo! the mantle and hauberk were empty. Shapeless they lay now on the ground, torn and tumbled; and a cry went up into the shuddering air, and faded to a shrill wailing, passing with the wind, a voice bodiless and thin that died, and was swallowed up, and was never heard again in that age of this world.
-The Battle of the Pelennor Fields

Gandalf in grief and horror turned his face away and closed the door. For a while he stood in thought, silent upon the threshold, while those outside heard the greedy roaring of the fire within. And then Denethor gave a great cry, and afterwards spoke no more, nor was ever again seen by mortal men.
-The Pyre of Denethor

Yet we don’t expect WiKi or Denethor to pop up later.

But it *is* a statement of Doom that on the surface doesn’t seem to bode too well for our ranger.

******************************************

I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 19 2015, 3:05pm

Post #4 of 48 (3938 views)
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...he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as *living* man. [In reply to] Can't Post

Interesting idea, that the implication is that he came there after-having-been-alive.

For what it is worth, my reading was that it was a place Aragorn revisited in comforting memory, as we're told slightly earlier that Frodo does:


Quote
When he had gone and passed again into the outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlorien”


Maybe that is an effect the place has on people (I think that when the Company leaves, Legolas says something to Gimli about how, because he left voluntarily, the memory will never fade...)

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 19 2015, 3:07pm

Post #5 of 48 (3932 views)
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"the two sins cancel each other out in the end. " - most excellent observation! // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


sador
Half-elven


May 19 2015, 3:32pm

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Answers in brief [In reply to] Can't Post

What is your impression of this line, after looking into Kheled-zaram - what is it that Sam contemplating, and why?
Sam is growing up, and stops deferring to Pippin. Compare to the first morning outdoors in Three is Company.

Are we meant to draw a conclusion, or not?
I think Tolkien wants it to remain unknown. The description of Frodo's view is partial and unsatisfactory; that's what JRRT intended it to be.

The best representation of both Sauron and his tutor Melkor's strategy to divide and conquer?

If you stop and consider just how divided Sauron's own forces are...

This is more like Eru's strategy to divide, in order to achieve a fuller, greater harmony.

Just time, or an effect of being in Lothlorien? Or something else?
I don't think there is much; not yet. Gimli does respond hotly to an implied accusation, and Legolas reiterates. He does not of course say the Dwarves didn't suffer from this evil they did not create; he's just sayin' they wakened it up, and are responsible for that.

Once in the wood, though, Gimli is a bit more placating - after all, this is (comparatively speaking) Legolas' home turf.

Is Aragorn making an implication about Boromir here and thus ignoring this fact, or is the evil of the Ring not considered a danger wihtout a host?
Aragorn is trying a bit of partisan one-upmanship against Boromir, and is showing his own blindness. Boromir is right; within less than a month in Lothlorien Frodo, the only member of the Fellowship which was bound to the Quest, offers the Ring to Galadriel - the one person on their side (now that Saruman has defected) who both desires the Ring and knows how to use it!

But on the other hand, Aragorn is clealy blessed; so Boromir is doomed to fail, and he to succeed.

That temptation will affect both Galadriel and Frodo in different ways - thoughts?
It will save Galadriel; and cause Boromir's fall.

But Boromir is collateral damage at best.

Is the implication then, (which can only be seen in retrospective reads) that he returns to meet Arwen after her death?
NO. He is mortal, and such is not the gift of Eru to Men.

If not, how do you read this sentence - so full of potential meaning?
Compare this to Frodo, just one page before:

Quote

When he had gone and passed again into the outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlórien.

Aragorn is there already.



noWizardme
Half-elven


May 19 2015, 3:52pm

Post #7 of 48 (3934 views)
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"Come, Boromir! We will carry them." Ouch. (Frodo's ijuries revisited) [In reply to] Can't Post

Belatedly remembering that Frodo and Sam are injured, Aragorn decides they ought to be carried.


We briefly disussed Frodo's injuries before http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=854459#854459 but I'm eager for more.

Frodo is very reluctant to be examined - any ideas why? (My guess - he doesn't want the others to know about his concealed armour - doesn't really make all that much sense: what is he afraid of if they do know?)

Frodo has bruising on both the right side and breast (the blunted impact of his enemy's blow) and on the left side (from being thrown against the wall). He finds breathing difficult. I guessed maybe he has broken or "popped" ribs along with all that bruising. I can't image it would be at all comfortable to be carried in any way the Fellowship could quickly improvise!

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Brethil
Half-elven


May 20 2015, 12:50am

Post #8 of 48 (3911 views)
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The deep pool [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Quote
“They stooped over the dark water. At first they could see nothing. Then slowly they saw the forms of the encircling mountains mirrored in a profound blue, and the peaks were like plumes of white flame above them; beyond there was a space of sky. There like jewels sunk in the deep shone glinting stars, though sunlight was in the sky above. Of their own stooping forms no shadow could be seen.

“O Kheled-zâram fair and wonderful!” said Gimli. “There lies the Crown of Durin till he wakes. Farewell!”

But this reading leaves open the UUT (Utterly Untestable Theory) that Sam had some private vision, & that is what made him pensive.
Either way, the matter is not discussed again in the book, leaving us to wonder.


Indeed, that is the sense I have always from the writing. The very lack of us - the reader - being giving any view except of the timeless vision of the stars yet Sam being inspired to deep thought by...something...seems to be a conclusion in itself. I suppose the question is what purpose Sam serves here: if he is our proxy here, then is JRRT asking us to think deeper on what the vision means?





Should we also be wondering why Frodo is the member of the company who Gimli invites to come see the wonderful lake? Is this just co-incidence (e.g. Frodo was nearest): or did Gimli hope that Frodo, as Ringbearer might benefit in some special way from the experience?

Great point: as well as the interaction with Legolas as they enter the Golden Wood, we seem to have glimpses of a more giving and less closed off Gimli here too. Fir myself, I see this as perhaps an extension of the regard the Dwarves have for Bilbo, and thus his heir. The heirs of both of those TH fellows here have a moment of connect. I like it. Cool









Brethil
Half-elven


May 20 2015, 12:52am

Post #9 of 48 (3911 views)
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I love much of what you say - but this, very much. // [In reply to] Can't Post


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Faerie is a perilous land, and in it are pitfalls for the unwary and dungeons for the overbold.
-JRR Tolkien, On Fairy-stories

'What did you see?' said Pippin to Sam, but Sam was too deep in thought to answer.

What is your impression of this line, after looking into Kheled-zaram - what is it that Sam contemplating,….


Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.
-The Land of Shadow

(Often a sudden epiphany, like an overnight success, requires a bit of time to develop.)


… and why?

He realizes he’s “only quite a little fellow in a wide world after all”.










Brethil
Half-elven


May 20 2015, 12:54am

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Nice interpretation, Sador // [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

If not, how do you read this sentence - so full of potential meaning?
Compare this to Frodo, just one page before:

Quote

When he had gone and passed again into the outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlórien.

Aragorn is there already.










Brethil
Half-elven


May 20 2015, 1:02am

Post #11 of 48 (3910 views)
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Ribs and such [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To

Frodo is very reluctant to be examined - any ideas why? (My guess - he doesn't want the others to know about his concealed armour - doesn't really make all that much sense: what is he afraid of if they do know?)

Is it merely because Bilbo asked him to keep it secret? Does he feel that it is Bilbo's secret and still rightfully Bilbo's coat, so he feels odd and maybe a bit self-conscious to be wearing it?


Frodo has bruising on both the right side and breast (the blunted impact of his enemy's blow) and on the left side (from being thrown against the wall). He finds breathing difficult. I guessed maybe he has broken or "popped" ribs along with all that bruising. I can't image it would be at all comfortable to be carried in any way the Fellowship could quickly improvise!

No, quite right, it would hurt regardless! Contusions are better than bilateral fractures, which result in what is called a 'flail chest' in which diaphragmatic excursion becomes pointless and the lungs cannot expand. But not comfortable to be carried: though maybe the stature difference in the smaller Hobbits makes it somewhat bearable?














Brethil
Half-elven


May 20 2015, 1:14am

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Lothlorien and ghosts [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Interesting idea, that the implication is that he came there after-having-been-alive.

For what it is worth, my reading was that it was a place Aragorn revisited in comforting memory, as we're told slightly earlier that Frodo does:


Quote
When he had gone and passed again into the outer world, still Frodo the wanderer from the Shire would walk there, upon the grass among elanor and niphredil in fair Lothlorien”


Maybe that is an effect the place has on people (I think that when the Company leaves, Legolas says something to Gimli about how, because he left voluntarily, the memory will never fade...)






We have Cerin Amroth, the voice of Nimloth in the water, Frodo and Aragron perhaps visiting there in a spirit-sense, as well as Arwen departing life there, rather fading away. What intrigues me about this - beyond the metaphorical sense of the fading and 'ghosting' of the Elves - is that if you superimpose a map of Europe and Middle-earth, with the Shire and Hobbiton being approximately Oxford, UK and Minas Tirith being southern Europe in the precincts of the old Holy Roman Empire, you end up with Lothlorien in approximately the northeast/eastern central portion (~about) of France. And it may be fanciful (likely is), but for JRRT I think France would be full of ghosts.


Seems an intriguing convergence, map-wise. Though I may certainly be reaching here.









Brethil
Half-elven


May 20 2015, 1:50am

Post #13 of 48 (3901 views)
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BTW, in the Feedback discussion of the new leader post, you were Referenced. [In reply to] Can't Post

Wink









noWizardme
Half-elven


May 20 2015, 8:37am

Post #14 of 48 (3893 views)
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armo[u]r, ribs, no BBQ sauce [In reply to] Can't Post

Thanks for the medical background!
I notice the wonderful armour is not super-wonderful enough to make Frodo invulnerable; it does suffice to allow him to survive, but with suffering. A lot of things seem to work out like that in Middle-earth.

I'm also admiring Tolkien's care for detail in this matter. The injures described seem very feasible to me: the mesh of the chain mail ought to spread the force of the blow (so avoiding a puncture wound) but I suppose it wouldn't redirect the force of the blow very much, so that energy has to go somewhere (in this case the energy goes into flexing Frodo's ribs and hurling him into the wall).

C.f. plate armour, usually designed with curves so that the weapon is guided around the body (and often with guide ridges to make it slide harmlessly off, rather than guiding it into a vulnerable area).

(c.c.f female fantasy armour: breastplates - in more than one meaning of the word - with those deeply impractical bikini or bustier designs. But those, I guess, are really aimed at redirecting eyeballs, not impact weapons...)

That's from reading and thinking though - I'd be delighted to hear from any lurking re-enactors who have had actual experience wearing mail or plate though. People's real-life-experience contributions are so interesting.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Meneldor
Valinor


May 20 2015, 12:55pm

Post #15 of 48 (3879 views)
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NoWiMe, your understanding is in accord with my experience. [In reply to] Can't Post

Smooth armor without sharp angles is better for letting blows glance off, that's why rounded helms are usually preferred to flat topped helms. And fighting in mail can leave you with very interesting bruises.


They that go down to the sea in ships, that do business in great waters, these see the works of the Lord, and His wonders in the deep. -Psalm 107


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 20 2015, 2:41pm

Post #16 of 48 (3865 views)
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All of the above [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Frodo is very reluctant to be examined - any ideas why? (My guess - he doesn't want the others to know about his concealed armour - doesn't really make all that much sense: what is he afraid of if they do know?)

Is it merely because Bilbo asked him to keep it secret? Does he feel that it is Bilbo's secret and still rightfully Bilbo's coat, so he feels odd and maybe a bit self-conscious to be wearing it?

My interpretation is that as an ordinary hobbit, he feels odd wearing armor, and is self-conscious about it. And it was a secret gift from Bilbo. Then he found out recently it's worth more than the Shire, so again, he feels awkward wearing around something so immensely valuable when hobbits are not into the whole "conspicuous consumption" culture.

Then factor in that he has mail and his hobbit cousins and servant don't, and he'd feel a little awkward that he's sporting protection that they don't have (whereas they all have swords).






CuriousG
Half-elven


May 20 2015, 2:43pm

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What Sam saw [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
'What did you see?' said Pippin to Sam, but Sam was too deep in thought to answer.

What is your impression of this line, after looking into Kheled-zaram - what is it that Sam contemplating, and why? Are we meant to draw a conclusion, or not?

I personally think Sam is still grieving over Gandalf, and too deep in thought about that to ponder ponds that reflect stars during daylight, or anything else magical.


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 21 2015, 12:14am

Post #18 of 48 (3848 views)
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I'm not sure what to make of that. [In reply to] Can't Post

Part of me likes the romantic (but I believe improbable) idea that his spirit somehow came to Cerin Amroth, maybe lingering there and waiting for Arwen, so they depart together, like Beren & Luthien. But I keep thinking that's more wishful thinking than authorial intent.

Yet I find the writing awkward, as in verbal overkill: 'he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never, never, never, never, never again.'

On first read, it made me think that Aragorn would die before the story ended, since he's singled out that way as never coming back here as a living being. (None of the other Fellowship get to come back there either.) And I didn't know he and Arwen plighted their troth here until I read the Appendices, so really, what is a reader to think about this? Yes, it's an important place to Aragorn, I get that. Are we just told he never comes back there so that we'll know he has some high destiny that's taking him somewhere else? That is how I interpreted it on later reads. Is there meaning there for eyes to see that can, or is Tolkien just overdoing it a little in his word choice?


arithmancer
Grey Havens


May 21 2015, 1:46am

Post #19 of 48 (3843 views)
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I think... [In reply to] Can't Post

...it is for the re-readers who read the Appendices. In a sense, he never needs to come back there again as a living man. Why is he there, after all? Presumably to think back to his past experience there, to remember being there with Arwen. At the end of the War of the Ring he does not need to go back there to remember his absent beloved - he weds her and they live together until he predeceases her.



Bracegirdle
Valinor


May 21 2015, 1:28pm

Post #20 of 48 (3823 views)
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No 'living man' may hinder me. . . [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
And taking Frodo’s hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there never again as a living man.

I see this simply as Tolkien’s way of making this quote interesting and somewhat enigmatic. We can read into it what we wish.

Did he mean, “And taking Frodo’s hand in his, he left the hill of Cerin Amroth and came there only much later as a dead man.Yuck!
(Makes one exceedingly glad that Tolkien wrote that quote. .. eh?)

I believe Tolkien also used the words “living waters” a time or two?



noWizardme
Half-elven


May 21 2015, 3:41pm

Post #21 of 48 (3828 views)
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The blindfold thing... "Folly it may seem," said Haldir. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gimli is to be blindfolded, and understandably objects. Aragorn intervenes to insist they are all blindfolded alike. No Legolas briefly objects, before the party see the ridiculousness of the situation and reflect on the sad state of division between Sauron's enemies.

thoughts:

Is this an important point in the growing friendship between Legolas and Gimli? Loglas, who we criticised for running off in the snowdrift with a snarky comment, seems to be getting this "expedition behaviour" thing better now. They do say that "A liberal is a conservative who's been wrongly arrested".

Aragorn gives an order, calling on his "role power" (i.e. "obey me because I am the leader", c.f. "do what I suggest because know I am the expert here"). I think that's quite unusual?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 21 2015, 5:08pm

Post #22 of 48 (3828 views)
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It does seem absurd [In reply to] Can't Post

like rules run amok. The next rule was that they had to hop on one foot while reciting the Lorien national anthemn.

Aragorn managed to make a sly double play, which is what I enjoy about the exchange. First he teases Legolas by using his own words against him ("a plague on the stiff necks of Elves"), and that seems a little petty and vindictive, besides being provocative, but his other play is to be peacemaker and take the high road, and say that everyone must submit to the same treatment in the name of equality. The hobbits, curiously, don't complain. And Boromir, who complains a lot, doesn't either, but maybe he'd rather not see this fairy-land that he doesn't trust anyway.

It seems especially odd that Aragorn, who was honored in the land, was blindfolded too. I'd even expect Haldir to object to doing that, but I guess Haldir didn't know who he was.

What I'm never clear on is what exactly a Dwarf was forbidden to see. Were Lorien's military secrets plastered on billboards lining the road? Did nuclear missile silos beckon from either side of the path? Were their secret codes carves into the bark of all the passing trees? As far as I can tell as a blindfolded reader, they just passed a bunch more trees (pretty trees!) and nothing warranting secrecy. So why have that law in the first place, except out of racist animosity?


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 21 2015, 8:47pm

Post #23 of 48 (3819 views)
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I suppose the idea is not to let strangers learn the route into Lorien... [In reply to] Can't Post

...But if the paths see so nice and smooth that the Fellowship need not fear stubbed toes, then you'd think they'd be obvious to see. (But maybe it's a maze?)

As it is, the only one who gets to see the way in is Gollum, if he's still following. Or is he following? Later Aragorn tells Frodo and Sam that Gollum tracked them to the Nimrodel. But I don't know what he did after that: maybe Lorien was too disgustingly Elvish for him to go further in. But in that case, I wonder how he picked up the Fellowships trail as they left ? A lucky guess as to when and how the Fellowship left again?

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" Wink : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


oliphaunt
Lorien


May 21 2015, 8:57pm

Post #24 of 48 (3821 views)
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Legolas and Gimli sitting in a tree [In reply to] Can't Post

We see an evolution of Gimli and Legolas here, post-Moria. The conversation they have after Nimrodel's song seem to indicate a thawing...even a sort of accord, as Legolas does not blame the Dwarves for the rise of evil and Gimli does not mock the Elvish way of sleeping in trees. Just time, or an effect of being in Lothlorien? Or something else?


Are Legolas and Gimli being trained and healed? They've been travelling with Gandalf, visiting Elrond in Rivendell, and are now approaching Lothlorien. So they've been around all three of the Elven rings, not to mention the elessar. Gimli and Legolas's friendship is finally realized right after they meet Galadriel.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 21 2015, 9:58pm

Post #25 of 48 (3814 views)
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"Living rock," even. [In reply to] Can't Post

Gandalf tells of "Durin's tower carved in the living rock of Zirak-zigil, the narrator in Ch. 13 of The Hobbit tells of stairs "smooth, cut out of the living rock broad and lair", and Ch. 9 has "a great hall with pillars hewn out of the living stone". There's more in the Sil. He seems to have loved that concept.

I agree that there's no reason to believe Aragorn's ghost returned to Cerin Amroth, but I do like the idea that he returned in thought many times. Sometimes "a pipe is only a pipe".








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 21 2015, 9:59pm)

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