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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
"There is no grave, no memory..."

Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 18 2015, 8:55pm

Post #1 of 19 (2796 views)
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"There is no grave, no memory..." Can't Post

Reading over a transcript of TH:BptFA I reached the scene where Legolas and Tauriel reach Mount Gundabad:

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Legolas and Tauriel leave their horses and scramble up a rocky outcrop. They crouch behind some rocks at the top and see a fortress ahead.

TAURIEL: Gundabad. What lies beyond?

LEGOLAS: An old enemy - the ancient kingdom of Angmar. This fortress was once its stronghold. It is where they kept their great armories, forged their weapons of war.

A light flickers in a window of the fortress, then disappears.

TAURIEL: A light! I saw movement.

LEGOLAS: We wait for the cover of night. It is a fell place, Tauriel. In another age, our people waged war on those lands.

Legolas pauses, looking pained. Tauriel looks at him.

LEGOLAS: My mother died there. My father does not speak of it. There is no grave, no memory, nothing.


Are we to assume that Gundabad replaces Carn Dum as the capitol and chief fortress of Peter Jackson's Angmar?

Angmar arose about TA 1300 in Tolkien's legendarium. While not exactly another age, it would still have been well before Tauriel (approximately 600 years old) was born. Does this explain why she has no knowledge of the Wood-elves making war on Angmar, even though the Witch-kingdom seems to have fallen only about 400 years ago in the film-canon (the fall of Angmar seems to have been the event that kicked off the 400 years of "watchful peace" referenced by Elrond at the White Council)?

Materials relating to Jackson's LotR films attributes TA 87 as the year of Legolas' birth. This means that he was probably well over one thousand years old when his mother died. How (if at all) should this affect his memories of his mother?

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 18 2015, 8:58pm)


Smaug the iron
Gondor

May 18 2015, 9:06pm

Post #2 of 19 (2739 views)
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I think he mean no physical memory. [In reply to] Can't Post

Like no graven, the body, some of her clothes or a painting.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 18 2015, 9:10pm

Post #3 of 19 (2734 views)
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I get that. [In reply to] Can't Post

Although there does seem to have been some confusion over that point for some viewers.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Mooseboy018
Grey Havens


May 18 2015, 9:31pm

Post #4 of 19 (2721 views)
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Thranduil [In reply to] Can't Post

Thranduil also never speaks of her, so there's no memory of her in that sense.


Eruonen
Half-elven


May 19 2015, 2:07am

Post #5 of 19 (2623 views)
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Was she incinerated by dragon fire? For there to be no physical [In reply to] Can't Post

location, I wonder if she was destroyed by some means or if she was
captured and there is no word other than her death somehow.


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 19 2015, 9:42am

Post #6 of 19 (2534 views)
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Maybe the SCAR on Thranndy's Face? [In reply to] Can't Post

Had something to do with it...

His Face was Burned trying to Save her...?
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dormouse
Half-elven


May 19 2015, 10:33am

Post #7 of 19 (2527 views)
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Timelines in the films are confusing.... [In reply to] Can't Post

Another example is the suggestion that the necklace Thranduil commissioned for his wife was made in Thror's time. I prefer to go by what makes sense...

It's clear from this conversation that Tauriel doesn't know about whatever happened between Thranduil's people, Angmar, Gundabad, dragons and so on, so I guess that she wasn't born or was too young - probably the first. That also suggests that Thranduil doesn't allow references to what happened, which fits in with what we know of him in the film. That raises another question - if these things are never talked about - or only rarely, when the King isn't listening - how does Legolas know and how reliable is his information. He seems to have been very young at the time, from the way his father talks to him right at the end about how much his mother loved him.

I don't think we can make any assumptions about Carn Dum. Legolas only says that Angmar was 'beyond' Gundabad. That's not very precise, but I could imagine from it that Gundabad was a border stronghold - capitals aren't normally right on the border.

As for the 'no grave, no memory' that may imply something about how she is supposed to have died - dragon fire, maybe, or perhaps she was taken prisoner - but I think if has more to do with his feelings. If his mother disappeared when he was very young and is never spoken about... if there's no physical monument or sign of mourning he would feel that she had been forgotten. We find out later that Thranduil does remember.

I wouldn't stress about trying to place these precise events on Tolkien's tale of years: I don't think we can assume that the are going to turn up exactly as Legolas describes them.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 19 2015, 1:38pm

Post #8 of 19 (2482 views)
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The death of the Queen. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Was she incinerated by dragon fire? For there to be no physical location, I wonder if she was destroyed by some means or if she was
captured and there is no word other than her death somehow.


We just can't tell. There is nothing in the movie (theatrical cut) that suggests that Thranduil's Queen was killed by a dragon. For all we know, the Elvenking's injury was incurred at the Battle of Dagorlad where his father, King Oropher, was killed. It is also very plausible that the circumstances of the death of Thranduil's wife just did not permit the recovery of her body.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 19 2015, 2:04pm

Post #9 of 19 (2466 views)
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Yes. Jackson's timeline is very confusing. [In reply to] Can't Post

I do think that we can assume that Legolas was speaking metaphorically about another age--if his alleged year-of-birth of TA 87 can be given any weight (in the films). If Legolas was born in the early years of the Third Age then his mother could not have been killed in the previous Age.

If Legolas' mother died in Angmar then he could not have been very young at the time, unless we disregard the year-of-birth previously attributed for him. Legolas should have been over 1200 years old.

If Thranduil's wife was still living when the Necklace of Lasgalen was commissioned from Thror then her death might be tied to the fall of Angmar in the film-canon, approximately 400 years before the Quest of Erebor. However, that does not explain (and blatantly contradicts) Tauriel's lack of knowledge about her. It makes more sense that the gems were given over to Thror after the Queen's death. The lack of a grave might only indicate, as previously suggested, that her body was never recovered.

I am tempted to assume that Carn Dum remained the capitol of Angmar. It does show up on Weta's maps of Middle-earth. Legolas does refer to Gundabad, however, as the Witch-kingdom's stronghold. Perhaps he only meant that it was its chief source of arms.

I do agree that trying to pin most of these events down to a specific timeline is a fool's game. In terms of any logical continuity, they are a hot mess.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

May 19 2015, 11:47pm

Post #10 of 19 (2369 views)
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I wouldn't say they are confusing - they simply aren't present. [In reply to] Can't Post

All of the links above and below are assumptions and guesses. More to the point, blank space isn't confusing. It's just blank.

It's just like the background geography of The Mewlips. I wouldn't say it was confusing.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 20 2015, 3:09am

Post #11 of 19 (2342 views)
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Not all. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
All of the links above and below are assumptions and guesses. More to the point, blank space isn't confusing. It's just blank.

It's just like the background geography of The Mewlips. I wouldn't say it was confusing.


The (alleged) birth-year for Legolas comes from the LotR Official Movie Guide. Tauriel's age comes from Jackson's Hobbit movies. The connection between the fall of Angmar and the Watchful Peace comes from the White Council sequence in An Unexpected Journey, particularly dating it from 400 years before the Quest of Erebor.

There is a background geography for "The Mewlips"? I just assume that the poem represents the days when the Hobbits still inhabited Rhovanion.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 20 2015, 3:13am)


dormouse
Half-elven


May 20 2015, 7:03am

Post #12 of 19 (2309 views)
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I meant confusing.... [In reply to] Can't Post

...in the sense that any attempt to tie them to Tolkien's timelines leads inevitably to confusion.


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

May 20 2015, 7:28am

Post #13 of 19 (2303 views)
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I don't think any of those. [In reply to] Can't Post

We know that the companion books contain lots of material which doesn't match the final films. It is an assumption that these particular statements hold true.

The WC scene doesn't state that the 400 years refers to the fall of Angmar. This is similarly an assumption.

I'm not sure quite what you mean on the Mewlips. The background geography (or drawing the map, if you will) is left blank. Of course we can imagine or assume but that's rather my point.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 20 2015, 9:08am

Post #14 of 19 (2294 views)
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You are only partially correct. [In reply to] Can't Post

The alleged age of Legolas is certainly subject to revision. As you say, it is not confirmed within any of the actual films.

We are given Tauriel's age. Legolas confirms in TH:DoS-EE that Tauriel has been raised by Thranduil since she was orphaned 600 years earlier.

It isn't stated outright that the 400 years of peace began with the fall of Angmar, but it is strongly implied. We know that Peter Jackson's Watchful Peace is not the same as the one Tolkien described (the period from TA 2063 to 2460, when Sauron had fled into the East). We know for a fact that Jackson's Watchful Peace began approximately 400 years before Thorin's expedition to Erebor. The implication of Elrond's words at the meeting of the White Council is that the imprisonment of the Nazgul was the event that began the 400 years of peace. No other event mentioned in the films remotely qualifies, and Elrond's fear is that Gandalf's meddling could threaten that peace.

I have no idea what map you are referring to in regards to the Mewlips. I thought you were talking about Tolkien's poem, nothing else. I'm not even sure how the topic of the Mewlips came up. I did not mention it until you brought it up.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 20 2015, 9:13am)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

May 20 2015, 11:08am

Post #15 of 19 (2266 views)
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Yes on that one. [In reply to] Can't Post

Apologies - I wasn't specifically referring to Tauriel (though I would say, just in passing, that again the line in the film doesn't state she is 600 - though I am not making that point).

I wouldn't say that the connection between Angmar and the 400 years is implied as you see it. But even if I did then we would still be in the realms of assumption. Whilst I agree that other events aren't specifically mentioned, I'm not sure why we would find that unlikely - similar "unpinned" references are made throughout both trilogies.

I thought the map of the Mewlips geography was an appropriate analogy to show that blank space is not inherently confusing (which I thought was the original point. If we had to draw the geography we would have only a couple of specific references, such as the mountain and the Marsh of Tode, but wouldn't know what sits around them, how far apart they are etc. Our map would be full of blank space but, surely, not a cause for confusion?


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

May 20 2015, 11:10am

Post #16 of 19 (2265 views)
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Oh I see - well yes and no. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think there isn't any obvious reason to try to tie them to book timelines but even if we did, given that we know they are different then it's not particularly confusing, I don't think. It's just picking the wrong level of difference or not acknoweldging unknowns, it seems to me.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 20 2015, 3:29pm

Post #17 of 19 (2215 views)
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Tauriel's Age [In reply to] Can't Post

You're wrong on this. Legolas, in TH:DoS confirms that she is at least 600 years old:

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LEGOLAS: The King is angry, Tauriel. For 600 years my father has protected you, favored you.You defied his orders.


That's pretty conclusive.

We may just have to agree to disagree on Angmar. I thought that Elrond's statements at the White Council meeting made equating the fall of Angmar with the 400 years of peace implicit. But even if it is not, it is easy to draw that inference from them. Gandalf and Saruman had just finished discussing the defeat of Sauron and the Rings of Power, in particular the Seven Dwarf Rings and the disappearance of Thrain (who we later discover was taken to Dol Guldur). Elrond immediately chimes in with:

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ELROND: Gandalf, for 400 years we have lived in peace--a hard-won, watchful peace.

Elrond isn't speaking of the Battle of Moria; that had to have been far too recent. He might conceivably have been referring to some other, unidentified conflict with Sauron's followers, but it seems far more likely to me that he was speaking of the defeat of the Enemy's most fearsome servants, the Nazgul.

I can't equate this with your example of the word-map painted by Tolkien's poem "The Mewlips." While we can guess that the Merlock Mountains might be a reference to the Misty Mountains and the marsh of Tode might be based on some memory of the Long Marshes east of Mirkwood, these guesses are pure conjecture based on what we know about the origins of the Hobbits without the same strong associations we have in the White Council scene.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 20 2015, 3:32pm)


Spriggan
Tol Eressea

May 20 2015, 3:52pm

Post #18 of 19 (2205 views)
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Oh I fully agree. [In reply to] Can't Post

"At least 600" is definitely true. But we don't know how much more, would be my point. We certainly don't know that she is 600. Though, as I say, that's by the by to an extent.

On Angmar, you are perfectly reasonable in assuming that, but assumption it is. Whether you feel that is likely, or more likely than something else etc. doesn't move it out of the sphere of assumption. It might be that, it might not. The film doesn't say.

My point and question on the Mewlips would be to ask if we find the poem in any way confusing because it leaves undefined, blank space between its referenced points. I would suggest that we don't and are perfectly happy that it is a partial picture. I'm not sure why the same rule should not hold true for the film story.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 20 2015, 4:02pm

Post #19 of 19 (2203 views)
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Even Tolkien intentionally left some mysteries unanswered. [In reply to] Can't Post

I don't think that we need every single element of the films completely spelled out. It could be argued that that would be an insult to the intelligence of the viewers. Even Tolkien refused to clarify the origins of Beorn, the fate of Radagast the Brown or the nature of Tom Bombadil (to name a few examples). We never learn what became of the Ent-wives or whether Mewlips are real or if balrogs really have wings. Speculating about such things is half the fun!

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 20 2015, 4:03pm)

 
 

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