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The One Ring Forums: Tolkien Topics: Movie Discussion: The Hobbit:
An Elvenking Perverted
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 18 2015, 8:21pm

Post #1 of 34 (2566 views)
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An Elvenking Perverted Can't Post

While reading over a transcript of TH:BotFA I noticed that Peter Jackson has reversed the attitudes of Thranduil and Bard in the siege of Erebor. In the book, Tolkien gives us the following exchange:

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"Fools!" laughed Bard, 'to come thus beneath the Mountain's arm! They do not understand war above ground, whatever they may know of battle in the mines. There are many of our archers and spearmen now hidden in the rocks upon their right flank. Dwarf-mail may be good, but they will soon be hard put to it. Let us set on them now from both sides, before they are fully rested!"

But the Elvenking said: "Long will I tarry, ere I begin this war for gold. The dwarves cannot pass us, unless we will, or do anything that we cannot mark. Let us hope still for something that will bring reconciliation. Our advantage in numbers will be enough if in the end it must come to unhappy blows."


What a contrast to this moment from the movie:

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BARD: Wait! Please, wait! You would go to war over a handful of gems?

THRANDUIL: The heirlooms of my people are not lightly forsaken.

BARD: We are allies in this. My people also have a claim upon the riches in that mountain! Let me speak with Thorin!

THRANDUIL: You would try to reason with a dwarf?

BARD: To avoid war? Yes!


Do you have a preference for one version over the other? We can see where the change in Thranduil's mindset comes from. How do you feel about the alteration of Bard's attitude? Do you prefer the more hard-nosed version from the book?

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Bishop
Gondor


May 18 2015, 10:01pm

Post #2 of 34 (2393 views)
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I've often wondered about this [In reply to] Can't Post

I think we are to believe that Thranduil is some kind of cold, white gem grubbing fiend. He let's Erebor burn and its people suffer because his gems were withheld. Then he offers Thorin freedom in exchange for the white gems. Then he brings an entire army to get his white gems back. But then he doesn't care about the gems, and we're never sure why. I suppose after all that bloodshed he like, learns a lesson or something.

Does Thranduil have some kind of white gem sickness?

As for the roles being reversed, I suppose it was set up that way from the start of the trilogy. In other words it would seem odd for Thranduil to suddenly be rational and patient at that point, and Bard's character is meant to be flawless.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


May 18 2015, 11:10pm

Post #3 of 34 (2373 views)
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I don't think we are supposed to believe that. [In reply to] Can't Post

He's more ambiguous in the films than the book, but I think the films try to suggest he has hidden depths. In DoS his isolationism is framed in part in terms of his past experience (e. g. his monologue on the nature of evil, his line about "here in this kingdom we will endure", and the dragonfire remark to Thorin). In Bo5A he shows a kinder side in bringing supplies for the folk of Laketown (regardless of what he says about this) and in the end, the resolution of the storyines regarding him, Legolas, and Tauriel.

Personally I think some of this is what makes him such a popular character with film fans. That he is in the end a "good" character, but not black and white.



Bishop
Gondor


May 18 2015, 11:23pm

Post #4 of 34 (2358 views)
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Oh I think he has depth absolutely [In reply to] Can't Post

And he's actually one of my favorite characters, largely because Lee Pace is simply excellent. But it is hard to see him as driven for more than the gems. It is pretty clearly spelled out that way. The look on his face when he is denied the gems in the AUJ EE speaks volumes. He is prepared to let Thorin go for them, and when refused he threatens to lock him away for decades. When Bard thanks him for the supplies he explicitly states he's there for the white gems. The Elf is clearly obsessed! And I don't think we can say he is exaggerating his position or lying.

My question about whether or not he has white gem sickness is an honest one. Gandalf talks about the mountain corrupting people, so one wonder if Thranduil is also a victim in some way to this corruption.


arithmancer
Grey Havens


May 18 2015, 11:33pm

Post #5 of 34 (2354 views)
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That did not occur to me... [In reply to] Can't Post

...but is certainly plausible in light of the emphasis on dragon sickness. Personally I settled on the explanation that he cared about the jewels so much because they were tied to his lost Queen. This is not spelled out in the TE (no idea if it will be in the EE) but the jewels when we see them in Bo5A look like something a female would wear, and we do get the story of her tragic loss and his refusal to speak of it. Which was enough for me to adopt that explanation for myself.

To me it has the advantage that it resolves his story better too. We never see or hear of the jewels in the end of the TE, but we do hear him speak of his lost wife to Legolas.



Bishop
Gondor


May 18 2015, 11:42pm

Post #6 of 34 (2342 views)
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Likewise [In reply to] Can't Post

That had never occured to me. Smile

The idea the the gems are connected to his wife somehow is a stellar idea. I almost wish this had been alluded to, albeit in some subtle way. This way his perceived coldness is really some kind of attempt to find his own peace. It was also give his character arc some clarity. That's good stuff.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 19 2015, 12:45am

Post #7 of 34 (2327 views)
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Perhaps to be expanded upon in the EE [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
That had never occured to me. Smile

The idea the the gems are connected to his wife somehow is a stellar idea. I almost wish this had been alluded to, albeit in some subtle way. This way his perceived coldness is really some kind of attempt to find his own peace. It was also give his character arc some clarity. That's good stuff.


Jude Fisher's TH:BotFA Visual Companion provides some backstory for the White Gems of Lasgalen and the necklace made from them, intended for Thranduil's wife. Using the gems, Peter Jackson takes the story from the book of the earlier Elvenking (based on the tale of Thingol Greycloak) and transfers it to Thranduil.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 19 2015, 2:14pm

Post #8 of 34 (2199 views)
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About Bard [In reply to] Can't Post

Well I would say they re-wrote Bard, except that there's not much to go by in the book. They (PJ & Co.) made him a family man, and the (Aragorn-ish) reluctant leader of the Laketown survivors. They gave him a much better motive - to protect his kids & people - and made him very likeable. So, it wouldn't really work well to have HIM be the one to threaten the Dwarves; however Thranduil had already imprisoned them, and had the grudge going over the withheld gems, so to me it makes sense to do this switcheroo. For me, I didn't much care for Bard in the book, throwing out his being descended from Girion and demanding a twelfth share - kind of made him seem greedy. Notice movie Bard didn't bring up his connection to Girion, someone else did. And he insisted they only take enough gold to rebuild their lives, nothing more. Definite change.

As for Thranduil, no I don't think he had any kind of "gem sickness," but the Elves attraction to starlight kind of explains some of that, plus the necklace was originally made for his wife. Movie Thranduil had become something of a bitter isolationist due to what happened to her. I wrote another post awhile back where I suggested that Tauriel was wrong, he DID have love for his wife and son, but the loss was so painful he couldn't speak of it. Again, I think this works better than the book Thranduil, who seemed to have no real reason to imprison the Dwarves for 100 years or whatever. Call me crazy, but I think both changes were good ones.

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 19 2015, 2:26pm

Post #9 of 34 (2190 views)
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The changes work within the films. [In reply to] Can't Post

I agree that the explanation about Thranduil's wife weakens the charges that he was possessed of some form of dragon-sickness (a much more general term in the films compared to how Tolkien used it). Even in the book, though, the Elvenking is described as having a strong desire to increase his treasure which makes his hesitation to go to war for gold all the more admirable.

Bard is not very well-developed by Tolkien; although he still comes across to me as more prideful than greedy. He does have personal reasons to demand a reward (he wants to rebuild Dale), but he also wants to provide relief for the survivors of Lake-town. There might be just enough time to send to Dorwinion or some other place to acquire enough food for the winter, but that still requires either money or credit since there is nothing left to barter.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


elostirion74
Rohan

May 19 2015, 8:01pm

Post #10 of 34 (2136 views)
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Bard was very idealized in general, not only in this scene [In reply to] Can't Post

First: thank you for bringing up a very important point.

Bard is certainly much more developed than Thranduil in the films and in that respect I prefer how his character was written compared to Thranduil´s.

In general, though, I found that both DoS and BoTFA tried to idealize Bard in a way which was very inconsistent with the general themes and ideas of the story the films were based on, so it´s difficult for me to consider only the alteration in this scene (siege scene). In the original story Bard was meant to seem more or less as grim, tough and prideful as the dwarves and by this accentuate Bilbo´s more peaceful and practical approach. In the films Bard was made to be very likable (and others to be relatively far more unlikeable), but this came clearly at the expense of nuances and shades of grey between the different parties in the conflict. I would have preferred a version where more was made out of his position as an heir to Dale (his position as a descendant of the king of Dale was brought up in DoS) and showing him as a less one-sided character.


Avandel
Half-elven


May 20 2015, 7:45am

Post #11 of 34 (2060 views)
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Agree [In reply to] Can't Post

And while it has been a while since I have read the Hobbit, I was always on the side of the dwarves - I didn't much like the book Bard, or the Laketowners; Thranduil at least to me seemed to behave like an elven king.


Salmacis81
Tol Eressea


May 20 2015, 2:47pm

Post #12 of 34 (2012 views)
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Tauriel... [In reply to] Can't Post

If Thranduil were portrayed as the kind and sensible king he was in the book, then the writers wouldn't have been able to portray their created character as the do-gooder counterpoint.


Brandybuckled
Lorien


May 20 2015, 3:28pm

Post #13 of 34 (2002 views)
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You know... [In reply to] Can't Post

It might have been more interesting (and accurate) to have Bard start off more like Book Bard and Legolas be present for his evolution into Heir of Girion to mirror(contrast?) the Leggy/Aragorn relationship to come.

Maybe.

Or Leggy could just run up rocks and pilot some more remote-control trolls.

NAArP: Not An Ardent purist since Arda was dented



Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 20 2015, 3:49pm

Post #14 of 34 (1995 views)
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You do have a point. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
If Thranduil were portrayed as the kind and sensible king he was in the book, then the writers wouldn't have been able to portray their created character as the do-gooder counterpoint.


Even in the book, relations between the elf-king and Thorin & Company got off to a poor start, although we are meant to believe that the Elvenking did not know Thorin on sight. This is plausible in the book where the Elves of Mirwood do not seem to have had regular dealings with the dwarf-kingdom of Erebor.

In the films, Peter Jackson took the old conflict between Thingol and the Dwarves of Nogrod and applied it directly to the unpleasantness between Thranduil and Thror over the White Gems of Lasgalen.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 20 2015, 3:54pm

Post #15 of 34 (1993 views)
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Bard [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
It might have been more interesting (and accurate) to have Bard start off more like Book Bard and Legolas be present for his evolution into Heir of Girion to mirror(contrast?) the Leggy/Aragorn relationship to come.


Peter Jackson does attempt this by introducing Bard as a mysterious, rogue-ish character, seemingly in the mold of Han Solo or Lando Calrissian. However, we soon learn that Bard is motivated by the welfare of the folk of Lake-town and especially his own family; and Jackson definitely makes Bard more sympathetic and likable than he is in Tolkien's book.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Laineth
Lorien

May 20 2015, 5:13pm

Post #16 of 34 (1974 views)
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I don't think so. [In reply to] Can't Post

I love film!Thranduil. I don't really like hobbit!Thranduil.

I wrote this on tumblr:


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From LotR and UT we get a picture of a tormented, traumatized king. He’s been forced to watch helplessly as his kin are slaughtered, several times. His forest is being taken over by darkness. He’s isolated and withdrawn.

And yet… he’s out having parties in said forest. Which makes no sense, considering the state of Mirkwood.

Then, he goes marching towards Erebor with an army, even though he believes the dwarves are dead. He helps the people of Laketown, because he’s not heartless. Then an army of elves and men marches to the mountain - to fight off thieves? We’re never given a reason for the army’s presence, and there’s no one who would make it to Erebor before them.

Anyway, we get there, and Thranduil… suddenly steps down to support Bard. Says he won’t fight over gold (then why come with an army?). And, crucially, doesn’t understand the nature of dwarves at all - even though he’s had thousands of years of experience with dwarves, and not pleasant ones.


I just finished an essay on Tauriel, but I talk a lot about Thranduil and Legolas in it too. (http://theseassong.blogspot.com/...-woodland-realm.html)

In the book, he just wants treasure. In the films, he wants the heirlooms that are rightfully his. I wrote this about the scene in AUJ:


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Thror expected Thranduil to “pay homage” to him. To pay homage means “a public show of respect or honor towards someone or something.” Thranduil arrives, and they both tilt their heads in respect. Thror then has the box containing the gems opened. Thranduil glances at Thror, before looking back at the gems, as he starts walking forward. He pauses before the box, greatly moved by the sight, before reaching forward. As soon as Thranduil's hand gets close to the box, it is slammed shut. Thranduil's eyes widen in shock, and Thorin looks at his grandfather, confused and surprised. Thror just looks at Thranduil, who looks up. They stare at each other, and Thranduil's mouth tightens. He turns and leaves.

No matter what Bilbo says, it’s actually quite clear. If it was a matter of payment, Thorin wouldn’t have been surprised. Nor would there have been any need to bait and toy with Thranduil. Thranduil's reaction to the gems shows that he cares greatly about them, something Thror had to be aware of. To be mocked and humiliated so publicly…


In the film, Bard's portrayed to be ignorant of dwarves - and rightly so, as none have been in the area for his lifetime.

I also wrote this:


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Bard is genuinely surprised at Thorin's behavior. Thranduil is not. That is why he has his army positioned so Thorin and the others can see that they are surrounded. And yet, he lets Bard try to talk it out anyway. When Bard comes back, Thranduil tries to comfort him in his own awkward way – you tried, it's not your fault. Bard asks why, and they both watch the dwarves prepare for war.

Thranduil says it's useless to reason and talk to the dwarves, that they only understand war. He draws out his sword and looks at it, probably remembering every time he tried to talk, first with Thror and then with Thorin. And he's right. Thorin will gladly make them all go to war. He's caught in dragon sickness, yes, but his actions in Mirkwood made it quite clear he wouldn't talk things out anyway.


Bard later says to Gandalf, "It will not come to that. This is a fight they cannot win.” We have Bilbo confirm that he's wrong - "That won't stop them". And then there is this exchange:


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The dwarves watch from the top of the barricade. Thorin shoots an arrow at the ground in front of Thranduil. Bard looks over in surprise, both stopping, and Thranduil looks from the spot back to Thorin, who yells, “I will put the next one between your eyes!” The dwarves cheer. Thranduil smirks, before looking serious. He nods his head down, his elves drawing their bows. The dwarves panic and hide, but Thorin does not. Bard looks at Thranduil, who raises his hand, signaling his soldiers to stand down.


Really, Thorin? Really? Stop giving your enemies reasons to oppose you! I spend most of BoFA wanting to smack sense into stubborn heads. Thranduil is not the more infuriating one for me.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 20 2015, 5:46pm

Post #17 of 34 (1968 views)
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Tolkien's Thranduil. [In reply to] Can't Post

We actually discover very little about the literary Thranduil from The Lord of the Rings and most of what we do learn is from the Appendices. We don't get any real insight into the Elvenking until Unfinished Tales where we get a more detailed history and learn of his father Oropher, slain in the Battle of Dagorlad. It is a shame that Tolkien wrote nothing about Thranduil's queen, the mother of Legolas. I'm rather taken by the notion that she might have still been alive and well and that it might have only been a quirk of chance that we were never introduced to her.

Yes, the Dwarves of Erebor were Thranduil's neighbors for centuries, but the Wood-elves seem to have had little direct contact with them. He doesn't even seem to recognize Thorin Oakenshield even when the Dwarf-lord is brought directly before him. And Thorin is happy to leave it that way.

As for the army, my impression is that once the elf-king learns of Smaug's demise he realizes that others will soon know about it as well. He might not expect goblins (or Easterlings?) to beat him to the Mountain, but he might anticipate having to deal with them after he claims the treasure (believing Thorin and his company to be dead).

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 20 2015, 5:52pm)


GrimMorwen
The Shire


May 21 2015, 2:25pm

Post #18 of 34 (1888 views)
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Thranduil's Wife [In reply to] Can't Post

I, too, thought that Thranduil was so crazed about those gems because they were the last memory of his dead wife. His look when Thror shuts the box is to me not one of greed, but of grief. I'll skip the chronological debate because it's already covered in another thread (the "No grave no memory" one) and besides, I can't count.

It seems that marriage was a very serious and romantic thing about Elves. They married for life, and if the bonding was severed, it was an almost deathly blow for the surviving spouse. See "Morgoth's Ring" (History of Middle-Earth 10) for the debate which shook even the Valar in "Laws and Customs of the Eldar" when the widowed Finwë desired to marry again. His was a peculiar case; otherwise we are led to understand that the surviving spouse chose never to remarry.

In the same book, Tolkien tells us something else about the depth of feeling Elves have for their beloved. In "Atrabeth Finrod ah Andreth", the mortal woman Andreth confesses her apparently unrequited love for Aegnor, Finrod's brother. Finrod comforts her by telling her that Elves do not wed or bear child in times of war, but that otherwise Aegnor loved her so much that he would have carried her away forsaking his kin, and would have loved her even as she grew old.

All this is to say that I understand Thranduil's everlasting love for his dead wife, to the point that the last gems made for her were worth going to war for.

It is also possible that Thranduil's wife is meant to have some traits of Celebrìan, Elrond's wife, kidnapped by Orcs and so traumatized that she chose to leave him and go West. She is not mentioned in the movies, but I always felt that the otherwise gentle Elrond drew his Agent Smith occasional dourness from this trauma.

Maybe something like that happened to Mrs. Thranduil. Thranduil (being younger) does not have Elrond's self control, and/or his memory is jolted back to horrible times by the confrontation with Thror's nephew. I did not dislike book-Elvenking, but I find that this gives movie-Thranduil more depth and charm.

"It seemed to them that they beheld a great queen whose dignity neither age nor beggary nor all the woe of the world had taken from her."

Known as BlackfishBlues in other universes.


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 21 2015, 2:59pm

Post #19 of 34 (1881 views)
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Elves and Death [In reply to] Can't Post

You make an interesting point. Elves seldom remarried after the death of a spouse, in part because they had a very different attitude towards death compared to mortal Men. In general, the spritit of an Elf would go to the Halls of Mandos in the Undying Lands after death, with the prospect of possibly being reincarnated in essentially the same body. This may have happened with Glorfindel of the household of Elrond; it is often speculated that this is the same Glorfindel who died battling a Balrog in the fall of Gondolin in the First Age.

I am not quite sure how the afterlife worked for the Avari Elves or for those of the Eldar who had never completed the Great Journey to reach the Undying Lands. I believe that at least the Sindar and other Teleri had the choice of going to the Halls of Mandos; this might also have been the case for the Avari.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


elostirion74
Rohan

May 21 2015, 5:38pm

Post #20 of 34 (1856 views)
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You're talking of the EE when you're discussing Thranduil, right? [In reply to] Can't Post

Nothing is shown in the theatrical versions to imply that Thranduil cared about the gems as connected to his dead wife. What is shown is an Elvenking who seems very proud and as a consequence only grudgingly would accept to pay homage to a dwarf (or anyone else, re his dealings with Gandalf).

Thranduil's smirk and attitude when speaking about the gems with Thorin - which is what we actually see in the theatrical versions - didn't seem to imply the tiniest flicker of grief to me, more like desire or greed. Thranduil is mostly shown as rather haughty, arrogant and full of disdain, except for his outburst towards Thorin and his reaction to seeing his dead warriors in BoTFA. The audience is of course free to speculate where this attitude comes from and what he "really" feels beneath his outward appearance, but they aren't really given much to go by, except an explanation for his isolationism: His people and Thranduil himself has clearly experienced the destructive power of dragons (his scene with Thorin) and have faced serious armed conflicts, and as a consequence he's relucant to risk the welfare of his people when faced with similar dangers.

I'm always surprised when people don't understand why Thranduil imprisoned the dwarves in the book. I think the reasons are rather obvious. Book Thranduil imprisoned the dwarves both because they were seen to harass and bother his people while they were feasting, because Thorin wouldn't be honest about the purpose of their journey (which creates suspicion and isn't particularly wise when you're travelling through someone else's kingdom) and because of old grudges and prejudice between the woodland elves and families among the dwarves. The readers are given both the elvish and the dwarvish point of view.


Laineth
Lorien

May 22 2015, 9:41pm

Post #21 of 34 (1789 views)
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You're right, [In reply to] Can't Post

we have little on Thranduil. I've tracked down every mention of him in Tolkien's writings.

The problem is that, in many ways, what happens in The Hobbit does not make sense when put into the legendarium. Given the history and context, Thranduil should be well aware of who Thorin is.

Remember that "the Elvenking was very powerful in those parts" and "much wealth went up and down the Running River; and there was friendship in those parts between elves and dwarves and men." According to The Hobbit, Thranduil was a powerful figure in that part of Middle-earth.

That is a logical explanation for the army. However, it still blatently contradicts his following actions - stepping down to only support Bard and saying he won't fight over gold.


Laineth
Lorien

May 22 2015, 9:57pm

Post #22 of 34 (1782 views)
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Yes. [In reply to] Can't Post

Finwë was the only exception - no other elf could remarry. At least, not without meeting very specific requirements: "Thus it is that the cases in which remarriage of the Eldar can take place are rare, but rarer still are those who do this, even when it is permissible."

Thranduil is actually older than Elrond. We are told that Elrond and Elros are born in First Age 532. We are never given Thranduil's birthdate, but we are told that he survived the ruin of Doriath in FA 503-506.

As for elvish nature, the foundation of elven-kind is memory and emotion. Their mind/will/soul controls their body. Elvish memories remain crystal clear, no matter how many decades or centuries pass. They never fade, even the slightest bit. Connected to memory is emotion. Elves feel things in a clearer way. They are ruled by emotion. They can literally just lie down and kill themselves with their mind, if they wish. Also, because of this clarity, they know from the beginning if they are feeling romantic-love or friendship-love for someone. There is nothing more important to an elf than their relationships, of any kind.

Thranduil has gone through a lot, and has a lot of trauma. The films really played on that, and I love it.


Laineth
Lorien

May 22 2015, 10:12pm

Post #23 of 34 (1781 views)
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Yes, [In reply to] Can't Post

Glorfindel is the same elf. Tolkien wrote two essays about it, stating so. They can be found in The Peoples of Middle-earth.

All elves were summoned to the Halls of Mados. In Laws and Customs, Tolkien writes, "Among those who refused the summons (or rather invitation) of the Valar to Aman in the first years of the Elves, refusal of the summons to Mandos and the Halls of Waiting is, the Eldar say, frequent. It was less frequent, however, in ancient days, while Morgoth was in Arda, or his servant Sauron after him".


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 22 2015, 11:53pm

Post #24 of 34 (1774 views)
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Thranduil in other times [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Remember that "the Elvenking was very powerful in those parts" and "much wealth went up and down the Running River; and there was friendship in those parts between elves and dwarves and men." According to The Hobbit, Thranduil was a powerful figure in that part of Middle-earth.


I think that the first quote above only applies to Thranduil in the days following the Battle of Five Armies. I'm not sure that a friendship between the Elves of Mirkwood and the Dwarves of Erebor existed before the coming of Smaug.

However the Elvenking felt about going to war over gold, I doubt that he had much compunction about denying it to Orcs or evil Men.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock

(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 22 2015, 11:55pm)


Laineth
Lorien

May 23 2015, 12:16am

Post #25 of 34 (1768 views)
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Actually, [In reply to] Can't Post

it's from when the dwarves arrive in Laketown: "Then the Master hesitated and looked from one to the other. The Elvenking was very powerful in those parts and the Master wished for no enmity with him, nor did he think much of old songs, giving his mind to trade and tolls, to cargoes and gold, to which habit he owed his position."

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