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The fate of the second army

Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 18 2015, 3:30pm

Post #1 of 23 (1068 views)
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The fate of the second army Can't Post

So, are we to assume that Beorn and a few eagles wiped out or drove off the entirety of the Gundabad force? It seems that this is another loose end, which is a shame given that the idea of a second army was actually quite an interesting plot point.

By the point that the second army/eagles/Beorn arrive, the Free Peoples are pretty much spent, having just enough strength to deal with Azog's army, so presumably they would not have the strength to fight off another force even with help. Unless, of course, they had a couple of Dwarf heroes who could deal with about a hundred Orcs themselves? Oh, wait...

What do you guys think about this? I don't know how many Orcs there were in the second force but there must have been at least a few thousand, whereas I'm fairly sure there were no more than about thirty eagles, if that...

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."-Gandalf


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 18 2015, 4:00pm

Post #2 of 23 (1021 views)
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I really hate to say this... [In reply to] Can't Post

We may have to wait for the extended edition to fully appreciate what went down at the end of the Battle of Five Armies. In the book, the death of their leader Bolg was enough to break the morale of the goblins. On film, I'm not even sure who was witness to the deaths of Azog and Bolg.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Radagast-Aiwendil
Gondor


May 18 2015, 4:04pm

Post #3 of 23 (1013 views)
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It's one of the most egregious mistakes of the TE [In reply to] Can't Post

Most of the loose endings are just slightly unsatisfactory but this one really leaves too much to the imagination! I hope we see this resolved...but in all honesty I rather doubt it. There are so many bits that need finishing off...and there is no way the EE will rectify all of the open-ended sins committed by PJ and crew.

"All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us."-Gandalf


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


May 18 2015, 5:31pm

Post #4 of 23 (969 views)
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The funny thing is... [In reply to] Can't Post

... the armies of evil seem to usually don't carry any long distance weapons like bow & arrow or crossbows when the story needs them to. There were a few archers in Moria, and a lot in Osgiliath when Faramirs troops from Minas Tirith needed to be defeated and a couple of archers when Theoden and the Rohirrims attack at the Pelennor fields but there weren't any Orc bows and arrows at the Battle of the Black Gate. Imagine our small army of heroes and men being circled by Saurons forces and then... one or two rains of arrows and that's it. Or when Gandalf, Eomer and the Rohirrim attack the Uruk-Hai at Helms Deep. No single arrow is shot at them although we know that the Uruks did use very powerful crossbows. Or in Isengart... only one Ent is attacked by burning arrows although Isengart is full of fire and burning stuff to fire at big walking trees.

And btw isn't it much cheeper (if you look at the ressources like iron or copper), faster and easier to build bow and arrows instead of metal shields, heavy swords, axes or scimitars?


Let's imagine the Gundabad army consists of about 10.000 Orcs and Goblins. If only 10% of them would carry bow and arrow we would have 1000 archers able to fire their arrows at the Eagles and at least killing a couple of them if not all of the 30 (if there even were 30 Eagles). Or what about lances and spears? Peter Jackson loves to give his armies (especially Orc armies) spears as their primary weapon because... well it looks cooler in wider camera shots? But in combat almost every single Orc carries a sword or a dagger instead.

If you look at the two scenes we got from the Gundabad army you'll notice that almost every Orc of Bolgs army carries a long lance but no single Eagle gets harmed during their attack. These lances from Gundabad are about 8-10 feet long... So let's say we've got 1000 archers, 100 Goblin mercenaries, 3900 Orcs with swords or scimitars and at least 5000 Orcs with spears and long lances as we see them in the movie. How the heck is it possible that 30 Eagles, a wizard and a Skinchanger are able to defeat them WITHOUT ANY casualties? And don't forget the Bats and the Orcs and Trolls from Azogs army since the Eagles later turn on them as well. Does none of them use arrows? What about the Troll catapults?



To end on a funny note asking the famous question: If 10.000 Orcs, Trolls and Goblins (or more if you count the remaining ones from Azogs army) are no problem for 30 (or less) Eagles... why didn't the Eagles fly the Dwarves to Erebor or Frodo and to Mount Doom? Nobody uses arrows anyway... Or is there a difference in Mordor? --> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6ZrJPiq9QGM
Tongue

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."

(This post was edited by Lieutenant of Dol Guldur on May 18 2015, 5:33pm)


Bombadil
Half-elven


May 18 2015, 5:33pm

Post #5 of 23 (963 views)
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This Plot Hole could be solved Quickly [In reply to] Can't Post

Some of Goblins Dwalin is fighting may witness
the Death of Azog &/or Blog?
... turn & hightail it back...
Which ALSO would explain Dwalin's disappearance.

Maybe just 3 or 4 shots.
Crazy

www.charlie-art.biz
"What Your Mind can conceive... charlie can achieve"


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


May 18 2015, 5:34pm

Post #6 of 23 (960 views)
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Azog was still alive when the second army and the Eagles arrive... [In reply to] Can't Post

 

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Otaku-sempai
Immortal


May 18 2015, 5:42pm

Post #7 of 23 (956 views)
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Well, yes. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
Azog was still alive when the second army and the Eagles arrive...


I didn't mean to suggest otherwise. However, I don't know that any of them could have seen Azog's demise from where they were. I haven't seen the movie again since my first viewing.

"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


May 18 2015, 5:51pm

Post #8 of 23 (945 views)
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Yeah... [In reply to] Can't Post

... but when Azog died the Gundabad army was already defeated since we see the Eagles attack the Dol Guldur army while Bilbo is talking to Thorin. So Azogs death had nothing to do with the defeat of the Gundabad army. And there's no way possible that any of the Goblins or Orcs from the second army could have seen the death of Bolg since this took place on the eastern slopes of Ravenhill while the army was on the western side.

I agree that the deaths of Azog and Bolg might play a part on the fleeing Orcs on the main battlefield but there's no chance that the second army would have been affected by that. Which makes it even worse for me that 30 Eagles, Radagast and Beorn would be able to defeat 10.000 Orcs without any casualties... But since we were promised more Beorn I really hope to see more of the fight between the second army and the army of nature.


"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Morthoron
Gondor


May 18 2015, 5:56pm

Post #9 of 23 (931 views)
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Perhaps they went off to fight the Elvish army that disappeared from Helm's Deep // [In reply to] Can't Post

 

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


May 18 2015, 6:19pm

Post #10 of 23 (920 views)
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Or the... [In reply to] Can't Post

... Elvish army that disappeared from Dale or theDwarven army that also disappeared from Erebor... Perhaps all three missing armies were eaten by the giant were-worms who also disappeared together with Alfrid, Filis body, the Arkenstone and Beorn... or the Eagles.

So many disappearances... At least we know what happenend to important characters like Dain or Radagast... oh wait!
Laugh

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


May 18 2015, 6:29pm

Post #11 of 23 (910 views)
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Slow camera has tricked you [In reply to] Can't Post

I imagine that every time eagles arrive they do at a much faster speed that is shown.

Given that I can picture Gundabad army running like hell to take their bows ready but it was too late for them, same at the black gate. Gundabad have spears but also the wind this beasts set around could be enough to blind and to make difficult to stand a big spear against them.

I can understand that it is funny that in the black gate no orc shooted an arrow to our heroes wich would have been enough to kill them all. But again, I think Sauron arrogance lost him, he wanted to play with them and he didnt care to wast some thousand of orcs

That been said, Dwalin and Thorin facing 100 goblins...come on

And in Dos Legolas says to Tauriel she cannot fight 30 orcs alone, come on, it should have been Bolg telling Azog: we cannot 30 fight a couple of elves.

Anyway, Im really upset on how easy heads are cutted in this trilogy, and how armours DONT WORK AT ALL to protect a body from swords and arrows

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer

Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero



Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


May 18 2015, 6:30pm

Post #12 of 23 (903 views)
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BTW: Why do the Eagles come from East? [In reply to] Can't Post

When we see them arrive we see Thorin standing in front of Azog. Behind Azog comes the second army from the West (makes sense since Gundabad is in the West of Erebor/Ravenhill) while Thorin stands looking from East to West. Since the Eagles first appear behind him in the distance they come from East... which makes no sense at all. Why would they come from there?

"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Anubis
Rivendell


May 18 2015, 6:31pm

Post #13 of 23 (900 views)
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Well.. [In reply to] Can't Post

Imo, there are reasons for the orcīs lack of ranged weapons. Certainly, it is needed story-wise.

But keep in mind that orcīs culture is sort of based on melee combat, on seeing face to face the ones you slaughter, on showing off your strength. What I mean is, bows and ranged weapons in general are not popular amongst orcs.

Furthermore, maybe because of the above, or maybe because of natural characteristics (or a combination of the two), orcsī accuracy leaves much to be desired. Surely there are exceptions (Osgiliathīs archer, Iīm looking at you), but these two points should dissuade most orcs to carry bows, let alone use them in battle.

Aside from these, some of the stuff you say can actually be explained without resorting to the "it is a movie" argument. I mean, there is no such thing as a movie that leaves no room for imagination. Here are some of my answers:

1. Moria orcs were smaller and weaker than their Mordor counterparts. They made up for this with ranged weaponry. Besides, the great ruins, the cover of the dark and their capacity to climb walls could make for some great hiding spots from which to shoot.

2. In Osgiliath, I recall only an archer in the boat with Gothmog. He definitely had a good aim...maybe Gothmog brought his armyīs best archers to the assault, in order to prevent exactly what said archer prevented? (To stop the Gondor watchers from sounding the alarm.) I mean, we know that at Minas Tirith, there were a lot of orc archers. Surely some of them must have been at least partially good? Another possibility is that Gothmog brought with him his best warriors, sort of like an escort, and they accompanied him in the boat.

3. We can explain the Black Gate stuff by saying that Sauron didnīt deem necessary to use arrows. He only saw a very minor threat, and he probably wanted to make the Free People see that there was no hope, by launching a full-scale attack with his overwhelming numbers. This was a special moment for him, because it was the opportunity to kill Isildurīs heir, and he didnīt want an anti-climatic, cheap victory.

4. Uruks, imo, are quite different from orcs in this aspect, but I am inclined to believe that all of the crossbowmen were killed during the exchange of projectiles between the uruks and the elves. They probably only had a few, enough to make sure they werenīt completely vulnerable at range, but nothing more.

5. The orcs at Isengard were clearly taken by surprise. Maybe all of them didnīt have time to prepare flaming arrows. The few that managed probably concentrated on the same Ent, instead of spreading out and thus being less effective.

As for the matter of the Gundabad army, I think we only saw a few quick shots of the eagles, and of Beorn, right?

I will wait for the EE before giving this too much thought.

Sorry for my rusty English (I hope to improve, someday.)


Lieutenant of Dol Guldur
Gondor


May 18 2015, 6:40pm

Post #14 of 23 (894 views)
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Well... [In reply to] Can't Post

... I agree that at least the first attack of the Eagles came like some kind of surprise to the Orcs but come on... 30 Eagles can't attack the whole army at once. There would have been enough time to make at least some bows ready and fire at least a couple of arrows to... AT LEAST kill one or two of the Eagles. But as you said... armors and weapons of the baddies usually don't work unless. Perhaps that's why Azog didn't wear any in AUJ and DOS. Yes he wears one in BOTFA but what does it help him? If you look at the way Thorin kills Azog... he stabbs him THROUGH HIS ARMOR. Thorin couldn't be that powerful in this scene after a very long battle and being stabbed as well.


In LOTR at least they tried to explain it with sentences like "Their armor is weak at the neck and under the arms". In The Hobbit they don't even try.



"There is only one Lord of the Ring, only one who can bend it to his will. And he does not share power."


Morthoron
Gondor


May 18 2015, 6:43pm

Post #15 of 23 (892 views)
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Not to mention the new Middle-earth picture game inspired by "The Hobbit" films.... [In reply to] Can't Post

"Where's Bilbo?"

Please visit my blog...The Dark Elf File...a slighty skewed journal of music and literary comment, fan-fiction and interminable essays.



Mr. Arkenstone (isaac)
Tol Eressea


May 18 2015, 6:52pm

Post #16 of 23 (882 views)
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Yeah [In reply to] Can't Post

He stabs Aazog like butter, Ii dont like that, in other cases it is shown too, I dont think I can recall them correctly but the whole sense you take is what the hel are armours for?

The Elf shoted in the back in the river gate...why bother in wearing an armour?, come on

The flagon with the dragon has the brew that is true

Survivor to the battle for the fifth trailer

Hobbit Cinema Marathon Hero



BlackFox
Half-elven


May 19 2015, 9:18am

Post #17 of 23 (746 views)
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Thorin's sword pierces armor, but not metal [In reply to] Can't Post

Azog's armor is made of multiple separate, but overlapping plates. Orcrist goes in between two such plates, not through one -- a feat Thorin only manages to pull off due to the angle in which he faces Azog.



dormouse
Half-elven


May 19 2015, 10:05am

Post #18 of 23 (731 views)
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All armour has weak points... [In reply to] Can't Post

It's a protection but it isn't infallible. Think about it: if armour were impossible to by-pass or pierce no one would ever lose a battle.

You mentioned Orcrist - that's an easy one. Watch closely you'll see that the sword goes in at an angle between the armour plates.


Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor


May 19 2015, 1:59pm

Post #19 of 23 (698 views)
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The lone dissenter [In reply to] Can't Post

Well call me crazy, but personally I really don't care that much how the 2nd army was disposed of. Yes, it was probably too quick but again, I don't think the "how" is as important as the fact that it "did" happen. We really don't know how it happened in the book, either, since Bilbo was knocked unconcious and missed the whole thing. 30 giant eagles vs 5 - 10 thousand Orcs may seem improbable, but so is the idea that an additional 13 dwarves would turn the battle - and yet it did. That's why it's called "fiction."

Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association


dormouse
Half-elven


May 19 2015, 3:26pm

Post #20 of 23 (670 views)
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You're not alone... [In reply to] Can't Post

All that matters is that it happened. You could go through recorded history saying 'that wouldn't have happened', 'that sounds unlikely' and so on: fact is, unexpected things do happen.


Riven Delve
Tol Eressea


May 19 2015, 4:45pm

Post #21 of 23 (657 views)
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Yes, we are to assume that [In reply to] Can't Post

the Eagles and Beorn drive off the entirety of the Gundabad force. The Eagles are shown decimating their land forces and the bats, and when Thorin looks over the frozen waterfall after putting an end to Azog, what forces remain are fleeing back through the were-worm holes. (It's only a few precious seconds of footage, but it's clear.) The fact that the movie ends peacefully is an indication that the threat is over.


If you can believe in rock-eating were-worms, you can believe that a few dozen giant Eagles and a shape-shifting giant bear can put the second army to flight.


“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”



Spriggan
Tol Eressea

May 20 2015, 12:00am

Post #22 of 23 (596 views)
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I don't think we are to assume anything. [In reply to] Can't Post

I thought this was one of the bits of the film which worked out the best, because it was ambiguous.

We see the impact of the Eagles ploughing through swathes of troops and we see the death of the commanders removing the ability to signal orders to the troops to deal with this change of circumstance.

It's left to the audience to decide how they weigh these factors and so doesn't impose a view that Thorin saves the day after all or proscribe it, either.

One of the better features of the narrative for me.


darthgandalf99
Registered User

Jun 2 2015, 4:00pm

Post #23 of 23 (403 views)
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unknown [In reply to] Can't Post

I'm not sure we will get an answer, honestly, save for more shots of Beorn and the Eagles in the EE. This will be like the mystery of what happened to/why we don't see the Easterling army in ROTK. The EE won't solve the problem.

 
 

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