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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 14 2015, 8:42am
Post #1 of 32
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**LotR: The Bridge of Khazad-dûm, 4: Balrog! **
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The Fellowship is nearing the exit, but first must cross a narrow, arching bridge across a seemingly bottomless chasm. They are being pursued by an army of orcs. Suddenly...
The ranks of the orcs had opened, and they crowded away, as if they themselves were afraid. Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.
It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.
The creature seems to be made of "dark matter," in that his presence seems to produce darkness. The flames seem to welcome and embrace him.
1. What other creatures in Tolkien have this "darkening" property?
2. There don't seem to be any skylights in this area. Is it just the firelight that he is darkening?
Boromir blows his horn, and it seems that he and Aragorn are determined to challenge the creature. Gandalf orders them to flee with the rest of the Company. We assume the hobbits, Legolas, and Gimli are all too happy to do so, but the Men seem bent on fighting. Gandalf stands in the middle of the bridge, holding his staff in one hand and Glamdring in the other. The Balrog approaches, and then we get the iconic moment:
‘You cannot pass,’ he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. ‘I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.’
Ok, let's parse this:
3. What is the Secret Fire, and how is Gandalf its servant? What/where is Anor? What/where is Udûn?
Note, I am ignoring the wings issue for now. I'll get to them later.
Gandalf and Balrog cross swords, and the Balrog leaps onto the bridge. Aragorn and Boromir seem about to join the fray, when...
At that moment Gandalf lifted his staff, and crying aloud he smote the bridge before him. The staff broke asunder and fell from his hand. A blinding sheet of white flame sprang up. The bridge cracked. Right at the Balrog’s feet it broke, and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness.
4. Check out Reverend's questions about Gandalf's staff. Enjoy the answers and offer some of your own!
With a terrible cry the Balrog fell forward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished. But even as it fell it swung its whip, and the thongs lashed and curled about the wizard’s knees, dragging him to the brink. He staggered, and fell, grasped vainly at the stone, and slid into the abyss. ‘Fly you fools!’ he cried, and was gone.
The fires went out, and blank darkness fell.
A moment of silence, please.
Thank you.
5R. Can you remember your first reaction to this scene?
6R. If ‘blank darkness fell,’ how does the Fellowship manage to continue staring at the pit, and how do Aragorn and Boromir manage to flee back along the crumbling bridge in the dark, and how does anyone see the remainder of the bridge fall?
7. What did you think of the movie's rendition of this battle?
Extra Credit:
Two more from Reverend:
The Last Word on Balrog Wings
Bibliography on Balrog Wings. Unfortunately, as 12 years have passed, many of these links are "cobwebs". I have loyally checked them. The following are good links: 1, 2, 5, 8, 9, 12, 13, 14 (same as #2, though), 15, 24, 25, 31. Note, Rev awarded them stars for value.
8. Feel free to unburden yourself on the subject of Balrog wings. Or not.
By tomorrow, we'll be recovered enough to continue...
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 14 2015, 8:45am)
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 15 2015, 8:28pm
Post #2 of 32
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These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount out of the midst of the fire, of the cloud, and of the thick darkness...
-Deuteronomy 5:22
And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand toward heaven, that there may be darkness over the land of Egypt, even darkness which may be felt.
And Moses stretched forth his hand toward heaven; and there was a thick darkness in all the land of Egypt three days:
They saw not one another, neither rose any from his place for three days:
-Exodus 10:21-23
1. What other creatures in Tolkien have this "darkening" property?
The Unlight of Ungoliant, the Smoke of Mount Doom, the Hairdresser of Arwen Undómiel, and I’ve always thought of The Black Breath as being physically dark.
One might include the Old Forest and Mirkwood.
2. There don't seem to be any skylights in this area. Is it just the firelight that he is darkening?
It could be the eyes of the Fellowship. The fear induced by the Balrog could slow bloodflow and vision would darken. There’s also the fact they’ve probably not had any fruits or veggies lately so their Thiamine is low which could produce similar symptoms. And there’s also smoking, which could dim eyesight whether acutely external or chronically internal.
Or maybe it’s maaaaagic!
Boromir blows his horn,…
And they blame Pippin for a dropped pebble...
3. What is the Secret Fire, and how is Gandalf its servant? What/where is Anor? What/where is Udûn?
The Secret Fire is the Flame Imperishable which Eru gave Arda when he created it, Anor is the Sun which Nienna helped create when she wept over the ruin of The Two Trees, and Udûn is the first of Melkor’s many lairs that all inevitably fell to the forces of Good.
So like Aragorn does elsewhere, Gandalf is showing his bonfides in a fair warning to the Balrog: “Hey, dummy! I’m an earthly representative of the Ultimate Creator plus I’m a student of one of the most powerful Queens of the Valar whereas you’re just a mockery cobbled together by an umpteen-dozen-time loser so you've gotta ask yourself one question: ‘Do I feel lucky?’ Well, do ya, punk?”
Or more succinctly: “I’m on a mission from God.”
Note, I am ignoring the wings issue for now. I'll get to them later.
And here I changed my sig just for you.
4. Check out Reverend's questions about Gandalf's staff. Enjoy the answers and offer some of your own!
1. So. What power is in a Wizard’s staff?
The staff is a symbol of his authority, and occasionally a tool or prop.
But the true power is in Gandalf himself.
Consider:
And Mosheh took his wife and his sons, and made them ride on the ass, and returned to the land of Mizraim. And Mosheh took the rod which he had brought away from the chamber of his father-in-law; and it was from the sapphire Throne of glory, in weight forty sein; and upon it was engraved and set forth the Great and Glorious Name by which the signs should be wrought before the LORD by his hand.
-Targum Yerushalmi, Exodus 4:20
That is, sure the Staff of Moses (Mosheh) was all nice looking and impressive, and seemed to obviously be the source of the signs, or miracles, of Egypt (Mizraim), but the true power was in Moses' hand, that is, in Moses himself, through God.
Also see the power in Moses' hand (not staff) in Exodus 10:21-23 above.
Why do Wizards carry them?
An old man’s walking stick. Plus as a ready prop.
I’m reminded of Numbers 20:7-12 when Moses and Aaron got into trouble for confusing the power of God with the non-power of the staff:
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.
And Moses took the rod from before the LORD, as he commanded him.
And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?
And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.
And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.
That is, instead of using logos, or speaking to the rock as God commanded, they struck the rock which made it look like the power was in the staff.
2. Given that magic items in Tolkien require an infusion of the maker’s life-force, isn’t Gandalf making a serious sacrifice here?
Perhaps if Gandalf had made the staff himself, but it seems more like standard issue wizard equipment from the Valar.
What does that tell us about his overall power, given that he will STILL be able to slug it out with the Balrog for over ten days?
That the true power wasn’t in the staff.
3. Did Saruman let Gandalf keep his staff when taking him prisoner?
Apparently so.
If so, why?
Obviously Saruman, being a wizard himself, knew where the real power was. Plus he knew Gandalf would need a walking stick to climb all those stairs to the top of Orthanc. Even a weenie can be nice once in a while.
If not, where did he get a new one? Where does he get a new one as Gandalf the White?
The Valar will provide. Maybe Nimrodel held it forth out of the river. Or lighting struck a tree and the staff was the only wood remaining. Or maybe Yavanna herself popped up and scolded “Now don’t you lose this one!”
BTW, the Hebrew word "matteh" in the Bible can mean either "staff" or "tribe", and the Norse divided their gods into two tribes, the Aesir and the Vanir, and Tolkien divided the Ainur into two tribes, the Valar and the Maiar, which may or may not mean something.
5R. Can you remember your first reaction to this scene?
“Well that was rather quick!”
6R. If ‘blank darkness fell,’ how does the Fellowship manage to continue staring at the pit, and how do Aragorn and Boromir manage to flee back along the crumbling bridge in the dark, and how does anyone see the remainder of the bridge fall?
It’s another one of those pesky metaphors. For example:
Unfortunately, in 1868 Fuad Pasha died, and when he and Ali Pasha had both disappeared, blank darkness fell over the destinies of Turkey.
-Henry Alexander Munro-Butler-Johnstone, M.P., The Eastern Question, 1875.
Similarly (Get it? Simile-arly?) with the death of Gandalf a blank darkness fell over the destinies of the Fellowship.
7. What did you think of the movie's rendition of this battle?
Thrilling. Also nice Gandalf didn’t suddenly just vanish like he had a trap door fall open under him. And the somber motif of Golgotha in both choral music and crucifixion pose in FOTR is wonderfully counterpointed by the marital motif of brass horns and zing of Glamdring at the beginning of TTT.
And no, Gandalf doesn’t lose his grip because of weakness, but he lets go deliberately after he grabs on for a sec in order to give the Fellowship “his last command”.
8. Feel free to unburden yourself on the subject of Balrog wings..
I’m more perplexed by Gandalf the Ent: "he seemed small, and altogether alone: grey and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm" not to mention the wet, slimy, drooling Bridge of Khazad-dûm: "...and the stone upon which it stood crashed into the gulf, while the rest remained, poised, quivering, like a tongue of rock thrust out into emptiness".
It’s almost like Tolkien was deliberately using Anglo-Saxon literary conventions! Next he’ll be putting in riddles and kennings! (Er, wait…)
******************************************
I met a Balrog on the stair.
He had some wings that weren't there.
They weren't there again today.
I wish he would just fly away.
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 15 2015, 9:42pm
Post #3 of 32
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Thank you for this banquet in Khazad-dum, Elizabeth!
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On the topic of Gandalf and his humble sacrifice, and the faith tied up with it - which is what that fall really represents I think - I like what JRRT says about it in #156:
'Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions, less perhaps than for a mortal Man or Hobbit, since he had far greater inner power than they; but also more, since it was a humbling and abnegation of himself in conformity to 'the Rules' : for all he could know at that moment he was the only person who could direct the resistance against Sauron successfully, and all his mission was in vain. He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.
'That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like, the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, enhanced and returned. "Yes, that was the name. I was Gandalf." Of course he remains similar in personality and idiosyncrasy, but both his wisdom and power are much greater.'
That fall, and that choice is so pivotal to Gandalf's mission, though in a step of massive eucatastrophe: how else could he see it but as his doom? Yet by honoring the mandate by which the Wizards are sent to Middle-earth and trusting in the power that the mandate resides in, Gandalf comes out the other side as the complement to Saruman. This as Gandalf describes later, he is now Saruman 'as he ought to be'.
But if faith and trust is Gandalf's cardinal way to victory, then also here is the path of Saruman's failure. Instead of trust in the divine Authority, Saruman trusts *in himself*. In his own wits, and the 'machine' of that intelligence, to circumvent what he knows to exist, for the Istari have seen the semi-divine and thus don't need 'faith' in its existence: it is a proven, given fact. So the rejection of that is really a loss of faith in PURPOSE of divinity, not in its existence (which for example a Man or Hobbit, with no actual knowledge of the living divine, may fail in faith by disavowing it. This is the sort of answer-in-negative to the statement above by JRRT; thus the failure if an Istari in this respect is also greater than the fail of a mortal I think, since the mechanics of 'faith' here are different). Gandalf making that choice to lose his personal goal, to step (or fall, as it were) aside in trust, is a cornerstone to JRRT's ideas of faith, I do think. So its a huge event, and it feels huge in the book too.
I recall being devastated on first read!
(This post was edited by Brethil on May 15 2015, 9:44pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 15 2015, 10:32pm
Post #4 of 32
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Tolkien's rationale is fascinating to follow. Though didn't he say something similar about Frodo not failing morally even if he failed technically, having done his personal best?
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 16 2015, 12:58am
Post #5 of 32
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Yes, Frodo's failure was a certainty.
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'The Quest :. was bound to fail as a piece of world plan' (#181). Frodo's choice, similar to Gandalf's in appearing to be catastrophic yet one that reflects a sense of faith and humility, was to pity and forgive the treacherous and dangerous Gollum (who was unable to NOT turn on Frodo, due to his weaknesses). In which case the events at the Fire are similar in certain moral ways to the events at the Bridge from Gandalf's and Frodo's perspectives. Good connection, CG. 
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Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea
May 16 2015, 9:57pm
Post #7 of 32
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Is someone who has experience in dealing with Balrogs. Maybe Elrond was right in hinting that Glorfindel should have come along.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 16 2015, 10:07pm
Post #8 of 32
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It would, arguably, be preferable for Glorfindel to sacrifice himself again to let Gandalf stick with the mission.
But, if Reverend is right, Balrogs have evolved a lot since the First Age, so even Glorfindel might not have been able to handle him.
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sador
Half-elven
May 17 2015, 1:58pm
Post #9 of 32
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A room at the top
Where we're not allowed
Cheer to the echo
Can you hear the sound?
Whoa, whoa, for the wings of a dove.
1. What other creatures in Tolkien have this "darkening" property?
The Nazgul.
If I ever get around to preparing the discussion on The Great River, I might return to that.
2. There don't seem to be any skylights in this area. Is it just the firelight that he is darkening?
Well, in that case it isn't really darkening the firelight. It is beyond the fire, and dark enough not to be perceived clearly.
3. What is the Secret Fire, and how is Gandalf its servant? What/where is Anor? What/where is Udûn?
The serious answers have been given already. Although it importanty to realise that in this case, Udûn is Utumno (Melkor's first stronghold) rather than the valley of that name in Mordor.
I haven't got the time for a playful answer.
4. Check out Reverend's questions about Gandalf's staff. Enjoy the answers and offer some of your own!
Thank you for those.
I notice that NZS has mentioned Shippey's explanation as to the origin of the name 'Gandalf' - however, if Shippey was correct, the idea was late in coming to Tolkien; in the drafts for the first half of The Hobbit, it was the name of the leader of the dwarves. The wizard was called Bladorthin (in the published book, the mysterious king for which Thror's folk had forged the famous spears).
5R. Can you remember your first reaction to this scene?
Well, this was my first experience of the scene, so meh.
6R. If ‘blank darkness fell,’ how does the Fellowship manage to continue staring at the pit, and how do Aragorn and Boromir manage to flee back along the crumbling bridge in the dark, and how does anyone see the remainder of the bridge fall?
I would assume light did come from within the pit. The Balrog's fire was only quenched when they hit the water.
7. What did you think of the movie's rendition of this battle?
I liked the Balrog's wings being unclear (despite Jackson's saying that as he reads the text, it does have them); but I didn't like the horns.
Well, better on the Balrog than on Boromir, I guess.
8. Feel free to unburden yourself on the subject of Balrog wings. Or not.
Thank you. I actually have quite a but to write about this, which I never did - but I'm late as is.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 17 2015, 2:10pm
Post #10 of 32
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The last time this discussion came up, I remember coming to the conclusion that Balrog wings seem to be things of smoke and shadow. Certainly, the Balrog of Moria seems to be incapable of flight; although, it could be that the chasm doesn't allow for enough room for such flight.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 17 2015, 7:13pm
Post #11 of 32
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We're always happy to hear your thoughts! Overlapping chapters are no problem.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 19 2015, 8:01am
Post #12 of 32
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I'm Fantastically Hesitant about balrog wings
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I can read Tolkien's text in this chapter as meaning the wings are metaphorical. I can read the text as meaning that the wings are literal, but have not been clearly discerned at the time of the first mention. It's also possible that Tolkien meant them metaphorically to begin with, & got captured by his own metaphor. But that depends on how he was imagining this character as it advances - did he need to imagine it very visually, or was that not necessary for him?
One of the things I'm enjoying on this read-through is noticing the use Tolkien so frequently makes of ambiguity. (See, for example, BlackFox's post on "fantastic hesitation" http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=833138#833138 ) That, I think raises the possibility that the ambiguity about the wings is deliberate (or at least appropriate). The idea would be that the writers of the Red Book of Westmarch (whose account we are supposed to be reading in Tolkien's translation) are trying to report faithfully what they saw, and they themselves were uncertain about the wings.
I understand that "do balrogs have wings?" is one of the most Frequently asked questions on this site, & I have been wondering why. I'm not doing this in an eye-rolling way (i.e. "*sigh* Ringers"): I'd like to know simply because it doesn't bother me. Is the ambiguity frustrating to readers who want or need to envisage the characters more visually than I do?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 19 2015, 11:15am
Post #13 of 32
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I used to have a very strong opinion on that topic ("Wings, you fools!") based on my lasting impression from my first read when I envisioned the Balrog giving a little flap of its wings to clear the fiery fissure. First impressions are lasting ones! But over time I've come to see the Balrog as a more nebulous creatture, existing in both spiritual and physical realms (the Seen and the Unseen, as Gandalf called them), so now I envision his wings as less physical and practical and more a part of his demon-like appearance. Demons and gargoyles are often depicted with wings, so it just seems natural that he would have them. Whether he could cavort in the air with Smaug or not I have no idea. They don't need to be corporeal wings in my mind anymore, just something that helps outline his presence.
Hence, I no longer have a strong opinion about it, but I sure used to!
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squire
Half-elven
May 19 2015, 12:00pm
Post #14 of 32
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Why is it such a compelling question?
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You take the subject to a meta level (i.e., a question about a question) but I agree that it's interesting how certain features in Tolkien's stories seem to grab so many fans' imaginations. I suspect, at times, that the 'balrog wings' question has become more of a cliche than a question that still occupies new and old fans' attention. When we all want to sum up the fanaticism of our fandom, we just have to say 'balrog wings' and everyone laughs, protests angrily, or rolls their eyes (as you put it) and a good time is had by all.
I wonder what the top ten most-debated, undecidable, contentious topics are in Tolkien fandom - and more to the point here, why are they the top ten?
I nominate one that mystifies me as much as balrog wings does you: the Blue Wizards. I feel like I am constantly tripping over them in various fan posts and speculations, yet they've never stolen a minute of my time once I found that Tolkien changed a good deal of his story about them near the end of his life, leaving them completely in my "unwritten-about, undecidable, and thus uninteresting" box.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
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sador
Half-elven
May 19 2015, 2:22pm
Post #15 of 32
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I also used to assume the wings were real.
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But having first read the book in translation, I had for some time suspected that the early reading might have biased my reading. This never bothered me enough to hunt for that old copy (it was in a really bad shape, and chances are the relevant page would be missing anyway), but once my kids grew up and clamoured for a copy of their own (they don't know English well enogh to tackle the original), I bought a new one for them - and lo and behold! It appeared that the translator had read this scene as the Balrog having wings! And without comparing the two sentence by sentence, you would never suspect!
Despite my really liking (and more or less making it up independently, before reading it) SilentLion's argument compelling,* this discovery brought me into the "deliberate ambiguity" camp. Not really based on a new reading, but more of an ideological preference to attribute any such ambiguities to the masterful writing of Tolkien, like Curious and FarFromHome used to do.
But as I've read HoME, I found out that Michael Martinez (in the essays Reverend linked to) had probably got it right: I think it is clear that Tolkien did make the Balrogs far more powerful than they used to be in his early writing. The new Balrogs, of the type that fought Gandalf and had some kind of wings, would have never been slain in heaps by Tuor and Ecthelion in Gondolin (according to the Book of Lost Tales), nor would have thousands of them been destroyed in the assault on Utumno - as Tolkien wrote in his last-but-one version of The Annals of Aman; however, this was struck out, with the assertion that there were never more than five or seven at most of these fellows.
Paradoxically, this actually had elevated Glorfindel's sacrifice at Cirith Thoronath to a truly heroically feat; I remember reading BoLT and feeling underwhemed.
But on the other hand, it makes Eonwe look really foolish for missing the Balrog when sacking Thangorodrim: if there were thousands of Balrogs, one could easily been overlooked in the final tally - but could one of of Morgoth's seven chief champions be simply missing, and no questions asked?
So yes, I think the Balrog "had" wings - or at least that Tolkien pictured him as such when writing about the battle on the bridge (which, incidentally, makes Reverend's UUT true; as a matter of fact, I think this was his real meaning behind the tongue-in-cheek humorous description - and a brilliant one it is!).
Apparently Tolkien liked the image, but forgot it when writing the passage in The Annals of Aman, in which he still had the old Balrogs in mind; the fact that he corrected the passage later need not indicate that he suddenly remembered there could not be thousands of winged Balrogs, but rather that once Gandalf became elevated to the grand figure he became in LotR (in The Hobbit he had a smaller stature by far), Tolkien realised that there could only be few of these monsters, one of whom had fought Gandalf for ten days, and had slain him before perishing itself.
This is similar to Conrad Dunkerson's coclusion in the penultimate paragraph - it seems that Dunkerson really wanted to keep open the possibility of deliberate ambiguity, but the sources he cited and discusses point at the other option he raised.
But if Martinez' and Dunkerson's analysis is correct (and I think it is) - we still must remember that after writing The Bridge of Khazad-dum, Tolkien still wrote a passage of the Silmarillion-texts with the image of the older, lesser Balrogs. So even if the idea of the new, terrible winged captains of Morgoth had captured his imagination - it didn't have much of a hold on it. I would suggest that Tolkien liked the image, but at the end of the day, it wasn't that important to him.
So I guess we should follow his cue, and let the matter rest.
* Compelling, of course, only if we assume the physical bodies the Balrog and Gandalf have are binded to the laws of gravity as we know them. Note, however, that when Gandalf threw his enemy down, he "smote his ruin on the mountain-side" (The White Rider), which indicates that once it couldn't flap around anymore, its body was destroyed by falling from a height.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 19 2015, 2:25pm
Post #16 of 32
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Well, I've not been on this site all that long (comparatively) but I if asked to guess which are the most Frequently Asked Questions other than balrog wings, I'd expect them to include:
Why don't the eagles fly the ring to Mt Doom?
Who (or what) is Tom Bombadill?
What happened to the Blue wizards? (and further subsidiary questions about them).
(Before going any further, I want to say that one thing I really like about this site is that if someone posts one of those questions yet again tomorrow, they are likely to get a courteous answer, not a whole lot of abuse, as could happen on other sites. The question is, after all, new to the poster, and probably posed in all innocence of it being a bit dog-eared. Long may that polite response continue.)
Why these questions?
I suppose they boil down to
"Have I missed something that is explained (or can be inferred) from stuff elsewhere in this story?
or
"This looks like a plot hole to me - can anyone suggest an explanation?" (or possibly "Look everyone, I found a plot hole! Ain't I clever!")
or
"This sounds very intriguing, can anyone tell me whether Tolkien had it all worked out in some other publication of his?"
The balrog wings thing doesn't quite seem to fit in with those. I suppose it could be a suspected plot hole if you (a) think the balrog does have wings, (b) you think it can fly and then (c) you're wondering why it does not use this flight to save itself from the plunge. But it would seem to be easy enough to imagine that, it can't fly and grapple with an enraged wizard.
I wonder whether this is about how people interact imaginatively as readers with this story:
Maybe readers who have a visual imagination are frustrated by the ambiguity of whether they should imagine wings or not.
Maybe readers who like to imagine capabilities are thwarted by wondering about the plausibility of balrog flight.
It would be interesting to know!
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 19 2015, 2:38pm
Post #17 of 32
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"Wait, you read that differently to me?" One of the pleasures of social reading, I think!
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I started in the opposite corner - reading the "wings" to be a description of the shadows the balrog creates. And that is how things would have stayed, had I not encountered people who had read it differently. So it's one of many examples of hearing from someone who interprets a passage differently to my own first effort, & going "Huh? wait...oh, I see what you mean!"
I like it when that happens - sometimes I prefer the new interpretation. Other times it is just interesting (and can lead to a discussion about whether the ambiguity is a deliberate effect, and if so, to what purpose).
It's also a helpful reminder that often there isn't One Reading To Rule Them All
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 19 2015, 8:29pm
Post #18 of 32
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in all the excitement about the balrog...
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... I missed that Gandalf has demolished the bridge: probably pretty essential in order to allow the Fellowship to escape from the other, non-balrog forces.
Or is that a bit of an epipha-me (like an epiphany from my point of view, but something that has long been obvious to everyone else ? )
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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demnation
Rohan
May 21 2015, 7:15am
Post #19 of 32
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Because I want them to! 
5R. Can you remember your first reaction to this scene?
I remember thinking: Wait, wait GANDALF'S dead. Of all people.
and the film version of this battle is probably the most true-to-the-book moment in the whole trilogy.
"It is not our part to master all the tides of the world, but to do what is in us for the succour of those years wherein we are set, uprooting the evil in the fields that we know, so that those who live after may have clean earth to till. What weather they shall have is not ours to rule." Gandalf, "The Last Debate."
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
May 21 2015, 3:10pm
Post #20 of 32
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Putting a plug in for the correlative
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Gandalf's sacrifice, and Frodo's "unreasonable" pity for Gollum, are both choices apparently approved by Eru and rewarded with grace beyond hope--Gandalf's supercharged return, and the destruction of the Ring through Gollum's agency, despite Frodo's failure.
'The Quest :. was bound to fail as a piece of world plan' (#181). Frodo's choice, similar to Gandalf's in appearing to be catastrophic yet one that reflects a sense of faith and humility, was to pity and forgive the treacherous and dangerous Gollum (who was unable to NOT turn on Frodo, due to his weaknesses). In which case the events at the Fire are similar in certain moral ways to the events at the Bridge from Gandalf's and Frodo's perspectives. Good connection, CG.
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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Riven Delve
Tol Eressea
May 21 2015, 3:34pm
Post #22 of 32
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*sits down with a plate of balrog wings, blue cheese dip, and celery*
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Is the ambiguity frustrating to readers who want or need to envisage the characters more visually than I do?
I'm afraid I am one who (*whispers*) doesn't really care about whether balrogs have wings! I suppose I read the description "holistically" as a child, thinking more of the big picture the entire description of a balrog conjured up in my mind--fire, smoke, darkness, terror, power... Maybe I never had a detailed picture, but just a haze of fear in my mind...? (In any case, Bakshi's gorilla-suited butterfly was a severe blow to my mind's eye, from which it hasn't yet fully recovered.)
I suppose I think the wings indicate power and scary (not to mention Coolness) better than no-wings...but I can easily see either side of the argument, and can read Tolkien's description either way.
When I finish my lunch, I'm off to apply for a diplomatic position at the UN. 
“Tollers,” Lewis said to Tolkien, “there is too little of what we really like in stories. I am afraid we shall have to try and write some ourselves.”
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squire
Half-elven
May 21 2015, 7:01pm
Post #23 of 32
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HoME's possibly misleading title
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I remember thumbing through the copies of the first few volumes I found in a bookstore in, when, the mid 90s? Huh, this isn't the history of Middle-earth like in the LotR Appendices. It's some kind of tedious scholarly textual analysis. Bah.
Later, of course, I softened in my wrath and learned to love the Bomb. Since Middle-earth doesn't exist, and is a fictional construct, its "History" can only be the history of its writing. Yay for CT, who is no balrog when it comes to expanding popular access to J. R. R. Tolkien's imaginary world, as far as I'm concerned.
You point out one of the many, many fun moments to be encountered in the books. Saruman? As the Moria scene is being written, he's just this guy, whether demon of Moria or arch-traitor of the White Council is TBD. At the beginning of the stage of writing LotR that is chronicled in HoME VII, which is roughly the third draft of the first book of 'Fellowship' with the hobbits desperate to get to Rivendell without Gandalf's help, Saruman did not exist. By the end of HoME VII's 'history', Saruman has emerged as Sub-villain Numbah One, right behind Sauron - a role briefly contemplated in the interim for 1) Boromir and 2) Treebeard. The Witch-king, if I remember, was not 'invented' until HoME VIII.
But then there are the odd notes from CT that I fail to follow, like this one:
Make battle on the Bridge be between Gandalf and Saruman? Then Gandalf..[illegible]..clad in white. (JRRT text)
The illegible words might conceivably be comes out. This was struck through; it had no further significance or repercussion. (CT commentary)
Well, sure, JRRT immediately rejected the idea that Saruman could be the villain of Moria, antagonist of a fatal showdown with Gandalf. BUT... when did Tolkien first conceive of the idea that, through death, Gandalf would be redeemed and restored to Middle-earth dressed in white, as the white Wizard? ‘Yes, I am white now,’ said Gandalf. ‘Indeed I am Saruman, one might almost say, Saruman as he should have been.' - LotR III.5
It looks to me like it was right there in that misbegotten note scribbled during the composition of the showdown on the Bridge of Khazad-dum. Doesn't that count as "further significance or repercussion"??
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
= Forum has no new posts. Forum needs no new posts.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 21 2015, 8:56pm
Post #24 of 32
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It's certainly not all dry! Apart from the insights into Tolkiens writing process, I did find myself unfairly enjoying poor Christopher's struggles with hastily drafted notes in illegible handwriting in light pencil. To add to this, JRRT was writing it in wartime and during post-war rationing. Many commodities were in short supply in the UK, and it was a patriotic duty to reduce consumption of anything - including paper - that might have military use. So Tolkien wrote a lot on paper that had seen other use.
I did once consider writing a parody in which CT tries to disentangle a draft of LOTR from the text remaining from the paper's earlier use as a shopping list..But I thought it mean spirited....
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"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
My avatar image s looking a bit blue, following the rumbling of my 2 "secrets" : http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=855358#855358
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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