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**LotR: The Bridge of Khazad-dûm, 3: Ghâsh **

Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 13 2015, 8:00am

Post #1 of 18 (4189 views)
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**LotR: The Bridge of Khazad-dûm, 3: Ghâsh ** Can't Post

The Company has survived an assault by an orc army and an orc chieftan. Gandalf has struggled with an unidentified adversary so powerful he collapsed from exhaustion. Now we face an even worse challenge.


Quote
“They now went on again. Before long Gimli spoke. He had keen eyes in the dark. ‘I think,’ he said, ‘that there is a light ahead.’ But it is not daylight. It is red. I wonder what it could be?’

‘Ghâsh’ muttered Gandalf I wonder if that is what they meant: that the lower levels are on fire? Still, we can only go on.’

Soon the light became unmistakable, and could be seen by all. It was flickering and glowing on the walls away down the passage before them. They could now see their way: in front the road sloped down swiftly, a some way ahead there stood a low archway; through it the growing light came. The air became very hot.

[..]

Before them was another cavernous hall. It was loftier and far longer than the one in which they had slept. They were near its eastern end; westward it ran away into darkness. Down the centre stalked a double line of towering pillars.....Right across the floor close to the feet of two huge pillars a great fissure had opened. Out of it a fierce red light came, and now and again flames licked at the brink and curled about the bases of the columns. Whisps of dark smoke waved in the hot air.

‘If we had come by the main road from the upper halls we should have been trapped here,’ said Gandalf, ‘let us now hope that the fire lies between us and pursuit.’




1. Why would the lower levels be on fire? Do we actually have to go that way? We were heading for a bridge...

2. Moria is big, but may not be all that well ventilated; in the previous chapter a breeze was worthy of comment. What is the consequence of lighting huge fires? Is the Company in danger of asphyxiation even more than burning? What is the fuel?

3. Whose fire is this? Our first instinct is to associate it with the Balrog (we've read this before...), but some have suggested it was actually set by orcs to cut the Fellowship off from escape. Comment?

4R. Why would the Balrog have set, and left, this fire, and then gone after prey a mile distant BY THE ROAD THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO TRAVEL TO REACH THE FIRE. That is, this trap would only work if the party got past the Balrog and all the orcs. Does this make sense?



Quote
At the end of the hall the floor vanished and fell to an unknown depth. The outer door could only be reached by a slender bridge of stone, without kerb or rail, that spanned the chasm with one curving spring of fifty feet. It was an ancient defense of the Dwarves against any enemy that might capture the First Hall and the outer passages.



Concept art from The Battle for Middle Earth.

Clearly there was no OSHA* in Moria.

4. In a previous thread squire questioned the defensive strategy of this bridge being lower than the exit door.
There's also the questionable wisdom of a narrow bridge "without kerb or rail." What is the likelihood that some confused or hasty Dwarf or Elf who's had a bit of Dorwinion Wine might fall? Other comments on the bridge?



Quote
Legolas turned and set an arrow to the string, though it was a long shot for his small bow. He drew, but his hand shook and the arrow slipped to the ground. He gave a cry of dismay and fear. Two great Trolls appeared; they bore great slabs of stone, and flung them down to serve as gangways over the fire. But it was not the Trolls that had filled the Elf with terror. The ranks of the orcs had opened and they crowded away, as if they themselves were afraid. Something was coming up behind them. What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and a terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.

It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it. Then with a rush it leaped across the fissure. The flames roared up to greet it, and wreathed about it; and a black smoke swirled in the air. Its streaming mane kindled, and blazed behind it. In its right hand was a blade like a stabbing tongue of fire; in its left it held a whip of many thongs.

‘Ai, ai!’ Wailed Legolas. ‘A Balrog! A Balrog is come!’

Gimli stared with wide eyes. ‘Durin’s Bane!’ He cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.

‘A Balrog.’ Muttered Gandalf. ‘Now I understand.’ He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. ‘What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.’


5. What do Legolas and Gimli know about Balrogs? How do they recognize it so easily?

6. Related: why don't either Aragorn (who knows a lot of ME lore) or Boromir react?

7. Does the fact that Legolas is so unnerved that he drops his arrow make you respect him less, or fear the Balrog more?

8R. Given that Gandalf is about to embark on TEN DAYS of unbroken hand-to-hand combat with this creature, how relevant is it that he is already weary?


Next: The Balrog

*OSHA, for non-Americans, is the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, a government agency that makes and administers rules for workplace safety, such as handrails.








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 13 2015, 8:10am)


oliphaunt
Lorien


May 13 2015, 12:04pm

Post #2 of 18 (4138 views)
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Just relieving himself... [In reply to] Can't Post

1. Why would the lower levels be on fire? Do we actually have to go that way? We were heading for a bridge...


I’m in the balrog camp. He’s attracted to the Ring, as are all evil things. I think balrogs can set fires just by passing through, or...


2. Moria is big, but may not be all that well ventilated; in the previous chapter a breeze was worthy of comment. What is the consequence of lighting huge fires? Is the Company in danger of asphyxiation even more than burning? What is the fuel?


…by passing balrog gas!


Why would the Balrog have set, and left, this fire, and then gone after prey a mile distant BY THE ROAD THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO TRAVEL TO REACH THE FIRE. That is, this trap would only work if the party got past the Balrog and all the orcs. Does this make sense?


He may have not set it intentionally, just relieving himself.

4. In a previous thread squire questioned the defensive strategy of this bridge being lower than the exit door.
There's also the questionable wisdom of a narrow bridge "without kerb or rail." What is the likelihood that some confused or hasty Dwarf or Elf who's had a bit of Dorwinion Wine might fall? Other comments on the bridge?


Elves are good tightrope walkers, so I don’t think so. I imagine a Dwarf mom nagging her kids to stop playing around on the bridge.



5. What do Legolas and Gimli know about Balrogs? How do they recognize it so easily?
For sure they’ve heard the songs and tales and seen the drawings.

6. Related: why don't either Aragorn (who knows a lot of ME lore) or Boromir react?
We don’t know what they were doing.

7. Does the fact that Legolas is so unnerved that he drops his arrow make you respect him less, or fear the Balrog more?
No, I think he realizes that an arrow is useless. He’s not a great lord like Glorfindel.

8R. Given that Gandalf is about to embark on TEN DAYS of unbroken hand-to-hand combat with this creature, how relevant is it that he is already weary?


Maybe he wouldn’t have been caught by the whip if he were at full strength.


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 13 2015, 1:34pm

Post #3 of 18 (4132 views)
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Bridges practical and heroic [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
In a previous thread squire questioned the defensive strategy of this bridge being lower than the exit door.
There's also the questionable wisdom of a narrow bridge "without kerb or rail." What is the likelihood that some confused or hasty Dwarf or Elf who's had a bit of Dorwinion Wine might fall? Other comments on the bridge?


As you say, not the most practical arrangement. I'm also thinking that Moria was a major manufactury during its heyday. There had to be ways of getting heavy goods in and out, and this bridge doesn't look fit for that purpose. There had to be a goods entrance/exit somewhere.

Also, nice to defend this bridge against an enemy, not nice to try and retreat quickly across it.

But a narrow bridge is very heroical - Horatius famously defends the bridge into Rome (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horatius_Cocles ) and in the Battle of Stamford Bridge (Yorkshire, England 1066: the Norse invasion that was beaten of as opposed to the Norman invasion which succeeded) a heroic fighter is supposed to have held a narrow bridge on his own, eventually being felled by someone getting under the bridge and stabbing him from beneath).

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 13 2015, 5:02pm

Post #4 of 18 (4119 views)
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Having no safety rail prevents the problem of people ...leaning all day [In reply to] Can't Post

Also a problem in a galaxy far away...https://youtu.be/9bSZXucTH4A

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


noWizardme
Half-elven


May 13 2015, 5:12pm

Post #5 of 18 (4117 views)
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Brimful of OSHA [In reply to] Can't Post

OSHA - as opposed to the Game of Thrones character Osha - is a new one to me (BTW - might they be related?

Quote
"You must protect them. You're the only one who can!"
―Maester Luwin to Osha, regarding Bran and Rickon Stark
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Osha


)
However, back to that -dum bridge design:


Quote
Incidentally, OSHA Compliance is not just about construction and design, but also about people in the facility following proper procedures, so the act of having a battle in a workplace is already non-compliance with OSHA, even without the smoke and flame.

http://tvtropes.org/...ain/NoOSHACompliance


a good point, I think.

Anyway, they're probably all too busy dancing to Cornershop? https://youtu.be/5LBnMRWeV-E

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Darkstone
Immortal


May 13 2015, 6:07pm

Post #6 of 18 (4121 views)
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"..the fire down below." [In reply to] Can't Post

Here comes old Rosie....
.................
[censored]
[censored]
[censored]
[etc.]
..................
...the fire down below.

-Bob Segar


1. Why would the lower levels be on fire?

Caradhras has heartburn. No wonder he’s so grumpy.


Do we actually have to go that way?

You have to go down before you can go up.


We were heading for a bridge...

It’s the journey, not the destination, Padawan.


2. Moria is big, but may not be all that well ventilated;…

That’s the point of high chambers as opposed to low tunnels.


… in the previous chapter a breeze was worthy of comment.

Somebody needs to clear all the old bird nests from all the ventilation shafts. Probably been decades since regular maintenance.


What is the consequence of lighting huge fires?

Winds, firestorms, explosions, collapse, probably lose that third level walkway down there and then how would the Sons of the Fellowship get across?


Is the Company in danger of asphyxiation even more than burning?

I’d be more afraid of strong convection currents while crossing that walkway.


What is the fuel?

Methane, coal dust, dried out old bird nests, guano, dried out old Dwarf mummies, orcs, more orcs.


3. Whose fire is this?

Fire safety rule number one, kids: A fire belongs to itself.


Our first instinct is to associate it with the Balrog (we've read this before...), but some have suggested it was actually set by orcs to cut the Fellowship off from escape. Comment?

I’m thinking that pebble Pippin dropped was a flintstone. I mean, as long as we’re blaming Pippin for everything…


4R. Why would the Balrog have set, and left, this fire, and then gone after prey a mile distant BY THE ROAD THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO TRAVEL TO REACH THE FIRE. That is, this trap would only work if the party got past the Balrog and all the orcs. Does this make sense?

No, but the workings of the minds of orcs, much less balrogs, are far beyond me.



4. In a previous thread squire questioned the defensive strategy of this bridge being lower than the exit door.

Well, that’s assuming there wasn’t another much wider main bridge higher up with handrails and lighting and everything that collapsed back when the Blue Wizards had a go at the Balrog on their way East.


There's also the questionable wisdom of a narrow bridge "without kerb or rail."

It’s a utility walkway for maintenance.


What is the likelihood that some confused or hasty Dwarf or Elf who's had a bit of Dorwinion Wine might fall?

For the Dwarves, netting to catch falling workers is a common safty feature in mines. For the Elves, they’re not going to be traipsing down any utility walkways.


Other comments on the bridge?

Next time people will be asking why the only walkway is *two* levels down!


5. What do Legolas and Gimli know about Balrogs?

They’re bad, m’kay?


How do they recognize it so easily?

There’s a tremor in the Force. And the walls. And the ceiling. And the floor.


6. Related: why don't either Aragorn (who knows a lot of ME lore) or Boromir react?

The non-reaction is the reaction. That is, stunned beyond thought, word, or action.


7. Does the fact that Legolas is so unnerved that he drops his arrow make you respect him less, or fear the Balrog more?

I’m more chagrined that a Dwarf dropped his axe. I hate to imagine what the other members of the Fellowship dropped. Probably quite messy.


8R. Given that Gandalf is about to embark on TEN DAYS of unbroken hand-to-hand combat with this creature, how relevant is it that he is already weary?

Considering the Balrog has been unable to sleep for the past three days due to crashing doorways, dropping stones, dooming drums, and the pitter-pattering of little fat hobbit feet, I’d say Gandalf might actually have a slight edge, especially considering how far and fast the Balrog had to climb to get here in the first place.

******************************************

Living Will Addendum:

To Whom It May Concern:

If I'm ever on life support, please unplug me.

Then plug me back in.

(Hey, works for computers!)


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 13 2015, 6:12pm

Post #7 of 18 (4115 views)
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Similar thoughts [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
As you say, not the most practical arrangement. I'm also thinking that Moria was a major manufactury during its heyday. There had to be ways of getting heavy goods in and out, and this bridge doesn't look fit for that purpose. There had to be a goods entrance/exit somewhere.

I too wonder how Dwarves, dependent on commerce for their food supplies, get them across that bridge. True, their major trading partner was in Eregion, but there would be many lands to the east to trade with as well. Another consideration is that the primary living quarters for the Dwarves seemed to be in the eastern part of Moria, closer to Lorien than to Eregion, so for anyone wanting some fresh air or any other reason to go outside, tottering across that bridge seems precarious.

But I suppose that in peacetime, they could have had wooden ramps and bridges across the abyss that they would destroy in wartime, so maybe they had plenty of alternatives.

Given that Dwarves are such great craftspeople, why not a drawbridge across the chasm that you could raise and lower, rather than a permanent bridge that could be lost to the enemy?


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 13 2015, 6:27pm

Post #8 of 18 (4112 views)
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The "goods entrance/exit" [In reply to] Can't Post

...was presumably the West Gate, not the East Gate. I think Eregion was, in earlier times, the more populous and "civilized" area, where trade might be expected to be common. After all, it was the West Gate that had the nice design on the door and simple password.

The Eastern side of the mountains was probably more remote and more likely to be inhabited by orcs. After all, we did see bands of orcs there, whereas there were none observed in Eregion.








noWizardme
Half-elven


May 13 2015, 7:52pm

Post #9 of 18 (4112 views)
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Who knows what about balrogs? What does Gandalf 'understand'? [In reply to] Can't Post


Quote
‘Ai, ai!’ Wailed Legolas. ‘A Balrog! A Balrog is come!’

Gimli stared with wide eyes. ‘Durin’s Bane!’ He cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.

‘A Balrog.’ Muttered Gandalf. ‘Now I understand.’ He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. ‘What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.’


So, who knows what about balrogs? What does Gandalf 'understand'?

Legolas knows a balrog on sight - so far so good - Balrogs are First Age monsters, and I suppose that the memory of them has stayed alive among the elves in art, songs and also possibly in eye-witness accounts.

Gimli identifies the creature he sees as "Durin's Bane" - it's not completely clear that he also knows it is a balrog. Maybe the dwarves know it's a balrog. Or maybe they don't know it by that name (few exchange visits with elven scholars of late) but have information from which a knowledgeable person (Gandalf for example) could quickly conclude that Durin's bane is a balrog. I don't think we're forced to assume that Gimli himself knows it is a 'balrog' until Legolas names it. Maybe he is calling it "Durin's Bane" by deduction: Moria contains "Durin's Bane" , some spectacularly fearsome evil creature. This spectacularly fearsome evil creature I now see in Moria, and which my colleague has just called a balrog must ergo be....

I had previously assumed that Gandalf's 'Now I understand' is his realisation that there is a balrog in Moria. But given the various snippets of information available about "Durin's bane" I wonder whether it is reasonable to think that Gandalf - who certainly knows what a balrog is, and has taken a long-term interest in dwarves and in Moria - didn't know that.

My new alternative theory -
what Gandalf understands in his remark is that he must now face the Balrog alone to save Frodo and the Ring and the others, and that it will probably kill him. That, as much as his recent brush with whatever-he-fought-in-the-chamber might explain the weary leaning on the staff.

~~~~~~

"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"

This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 13 2015, 10:08pm

Post #10 of 18 (4089 views)
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The courage of an Istar [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
My new alternative theory -
what Gandalf understands in his remark is that he must now face the Balrog alone to save Frodo and the Ring and the others, and that it will probably kill him. That, as much as his recent brush with whatever-he-fought-in-the-chamber might explain the weary leaning on the staff.


Yes, I think you're right. As an Istar, he knows that he will suffer and maybe die in the encounter. People here sometimes emphasize his maia heritage... he can expect that essence will probably survive the encounter, but because of the limitations under which he is currently operating there will be great sacrifice along the way. The worst potential consequence would be the collapse of the quest and his mission. I think he has no reason to expect being "sent back."








(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 13 2015, 10:11pm)


CuriousG
Half-elven


May 13 2015, 10:21pm

Post #11 of 18 (4086 views)
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What Gimli knew [In reply to] Can't Post

It's interesting that Gimli's reaction to the Watcher in the water wasn't, "That must be Durin's Bane." But his reaction to the Balrog is immediate as "Durin's Bane." I laid that out here Shortcut.

I'm with you on feeling like Gandalf really ought not to be the last one to know what it is nor need to have it explained to him. But he might have thought that a Nazgul or two was lurking in Moria in addition to the balrog which he knew was there, and maybe he thought he was fighting their spells in the Chamber of Mazarbul.

Your theory is interesting in that it's more philosophical and not so literal: Gandalf is "understanding" what lies ahead of him, and dying is such a bother.


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 13 2015, 11:11pm

Post #12 of 18 (4082 views)
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Probably not a Nazgul. [In reply to] Can't Post

I think there are really exactly nine of them, and although it's hard to know exactly where they are, they are extremely unlikely to be here. For all we know, they're still limping home. It'll be more than a month before we start seeing overflights.

If this Balrog has been lying inert in the deeper recesses of Moria most of the time since the First Age except for brief excursions to kill Durin & Son, it's quite possible that Gandalf doesn't know about him, I think. Note he says, "a Balrog," not "the Balrog.








sador
Half-elven


May 14 2015, 8:09am

Post #13 of 18 (4078 views)
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We cannot get much higher. [In reply to] Can't Post

Although this song has been quoted often enough on these boards, so perhaps Arthur Brown would be more appropriate? However, the Fellowship are going down at the moment.


1. Why would the lower levels be on fire?
They weren't. But Gandalf did not know what was going on, and he wondered.
For instance, there seems to be no indication that Orcs have been there long - there were none at the westren side. The Book of Mazarbul might indicate that the just came there to root out the dwarves - persumably returning to Dol Guldur afterwards.


Do we actually have to go that way? We were heading for a bridge...
Do you know any other way out? 'Cos Gandalf doesn't.


2. Moria is big, but may not be all that well ventilated; in the previous chapter a breeze was worthy of comment. What is the consequence of lighting huge fires?
Well, they have been coming to the habitated area. I suppose the ventilation would be better there. And the shafts did show the daylight.

Is the Company in danger of asphyxiation even more than burning?
I would say no. Tolkien did compare Moria to Torech Ungol, but never with regarding to the stuffiness.

What is the fuel?
Oil. The orcs were busy fracking.


3. Whose fire is this? Our first instinct is to associate it with the Balrog (we've read this before...), but some have suggested it was actually set by orcs to cut the Fellowship off from escape. Comment?
Are the two mutually exclusive? It could have been the Balrog's fire, tended by the orcs.

But I point out that the Balrog was not flaming at first. it was a shadow which radiated power and terror, but its mane kindled only at the fissure. It caught the fire, and was immune to it. But I don't see it as the source of the fire.


4R. Why would the Balrog have set, and left, this fire, and then gone after prey a mile distant BY THE ROAD THAT THEY WOULD HAVE TO TRAVEL TO REACH THE FIRE. That is, this trap would only work if the party got past the Balrog and all the orcs. Does this make sense?
This is an odd question.

In the previous thread, you've asked how come the orcs didn't intercept them, in what was more or less a private stairway, with no other passages crossing it.
But the twenty-first hall was large, and the second larger - I am sure there were several ways between them. And if the Balrog had perceived there was a Being of power with the Fellowship, it would have ome to fight it itself.


4. In a previous thread squire questioned the defensive strategy of this bridge being lower than the exit door.
There's also the questionable wisdom of a narrow bridge "without kerb or rail." What is the likelihood that some confused or hasty Dwarf or Elf who's had a bit of Dorwinion Wine might fall? Other comments on the bridge?
I like Darkstone's idea of safety nets; but the simple, cruek answer would be that is the said dwarf or elf's problem. This is a fortress.

It is also entirely possible that in times of peace there was a rail, which was easy to hack down. Or even something like the elf-bridge over Celebrant in the next chapter.


5. What do Legolas and Gimli know about Balrogs? How do they recognize it so easily?
Gimli knows it is Durin's Bane. Apparently he had heard descriptions in stories, and the figure haunts dwarves' nightmares. However, I must point out that in the first drafts (The Treason of Isengard p. 197) it is only Legolas who recognises the Balrog.

I also wonder whether Legolas' recognition is a 'fossil' from The Fall of Gondolin in which Legolas was the name of an elf-scout with keen eyes, who guided Tuor and his company away from the sack of Gondolin (BoLT II, ps. 189-192). If JRRT ever considered identifying the two,which seems quite possible - he would have known only too well what a Balrog looks like.


6. Related: why don't either Aragorn (who knows a lot of ME lore) or Boromir react?

Quote

...the coming of the Terror. 'An evil of Ancient World it seemed, such as I have never seen before,' said Aragorn. 'It was both a shadow and a flame, strong and terrible.'
'It was a Balrog of Morgoth,' said Legolas...


- The Mirror of Galadriel

Clearly, Aragorn does not know.

7. Does the fact that Legolas is so unnerved that he drops his arrow make you respect him less, or fear the Balrog more?
So far, Legolas hadn't earned our respect that much, had he?
(By 'our' I meant 'us book-firsters')

Also, in The Treason of Isengard p. 198, he is said to have dropped his bow because he was hit by an arrow. This would have worked better! But possibly Tolkien deleted this episode because later on the same day he will spring lightly up from the ground, catch a branch high over his head, swing from it a moment - and he would have clearly climbed up upon it and from it, had Haldir not stopped him.

It wouldn't do to have him injured.

8R. Given that Gandalf is about to embark on TEN DAYS of unbroken hand-to-hand combat with this creature, how relevant is it that he is already weary?
I think in those ten days he will drop some of his Old Man raiment. Otherwise he would have been burned long before.



Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 14 2015, 8:35am

Post #14 of 18 (4072 views)
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After all, no one is watching. [In reply to] Can't Post


In Reply To
8R. Given that Gandalf is about to embark on TEN DAYS of unbroken hand-to-hand combat with this creature, how relevant is it that he is already weary?

I think in those ten days he will drop some of his Old Man raiment. Otherwise he would have been burned long before.


Indeed. He seems to be taking this on as an "off the books" operation. He's desperate, and none of the "free peoples" he's supposed to be guiding are around to see the battle.








sador
Half-elven


May 14 2015, 8:38am

Post #15 of 18 (4076 views)
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Understanding Gandalf [In reply to] Can't Post

Several years ago, I have raised a few possibilities to answer the question:

Quote

What does he understand? On the first reading, I guessed it was the identity of the caster of the counterspell, but it could be more - the flight of the dwarves from Khazad-dum long ago, who drove the Watcher to where he was (and dammed the Sirannon), Thrain's not returning to Moria after the battle of Azanulbizar (I personally don't think Dain saw the Balrog there, but the possibility exists, and Gandalf might guess at it), or something unknown to us from his previous experiences - his first journey to Moria, something he overheard at Dol Guldur, something he read (but not out loud) in the book of Mazarbul (from what we know, there is absolutely nothing to hint at a Balin-Balrog encounter, unless we assume the Balrog was also the Beater of the Drums). I have actually speculated that Caradhras being known as 'the Cruel' (in Gimli's words) was the Balrog's work - in which case he hadn't been exactly sleeping all the long years between the War of Wrath and Sauron's appearing in Eregion - and he might have delibarately driven the Fellowship into the mines (Beren IV hinted at the same possibility).




But I really like your new alternative theory -

Quote

what Gandalf understands in his remark is that he must now face the Balrog alone to save Frodo and the Ring and the others, and that it will probably kill him. That, as much as his recent brush with whatever-he-fought-in-the-chamber might explain the weary leaning on the staff.


However, I will add to it another point from a previous discussion (led by CuriousG), in which I claimed that Gandalf's fight with the Balrog actually exceeded his mandate, and in a way, he sacrificed his mission for the saving of the Quest:
http://newboards.theonering.net/..._latest_reply;so=ASC;
If this is what he realised - well, it is that he has finally met his doom. He couldn't have known that Eru Himself will send him back.




CuriousG
Half-elven


May 14 2015, 12:35pm

Post #16 of 18 (4065 views)
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Gandalf, mandates, foresight, and choices [In reply to] Can't Post

Your comment has me thinking about the Istari mandate along with Wiz's idea about Gandalf meeting his doom.

The mandate: Wizards aren't supposed to use personal force to fight Sauron but instead motivate the Free Peoples to do so. **(note below)
Foresight: Gandalf has previously shown both foresight and insight. In Rivendell he foresaw Frodo becoming like the Phial of Galadriel, filled with light for eyes to see that can. And insightfully, he told Frodo in Bag End that he was meant to have the Ring, and not by its maker.

Now the choice: what other choice did Gandalf have at the bridge? If he turned and ran, the Balrog and minions would pursue and catch them, so a fight was inevitable. No one else was capable of fighting the Balrog. So, is the mandate a literal one, or one that allows him to do the right thing and defend the weak? Or put another way, was the only way he could remain faithful to the mandate to play pacifist against the Balrog and surrender? That would betray the higher mission of working to defeat Sauron.

Did Gandalf foresee that at some point in the Quest he'd be forced into this dilemma?

Just questions. I haven't figured out the answers yet.

**If the Istari were really not supposed to use force to fight Sauron, why were they allowed any magical powers at all? Why not make them as powerless as hobbits, with only wisdom, persuasion, and long life as the tools of their trade in motivating resistance to Sauron? My conclusion is they were given magical powers because they were allowed to use them, but they weren't supposed to personally try to storm Barad-dur and duel with Sauron. But then again, Saruman and Gandalf (and possibly Radagast) participated in the White Council's magical expulsion of Sauron from Dol Guldur, so did that break the mandate, or was the fact that they were partnered with Elves an escape clause? (We need a lawyer to sort this out, seemingly. noAttnorneyme)


Hamfast Gamgee
Tol Eressea

May 14 2015, 7:52pm

Post #17 of 18 (4026 views)
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Legolas and Gimli's reaction [In reply to] Can't Post

I must say that sometimes I look at this and think 'cowardly custards.' These are characters who slaughter poor little Orcs in their hundreds, but along comes one Balrog and they come over all cowardly. How do they consider those Orcs might feel about them?


Elizabeth
Half-elven


May 14 2015, 9:58pm

Post #18 of 18 (4023 views)
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The White Council was out of line! [In reply to] Can't Post

Of course, if they violated the mandate, they did so before the mandate was invented, depending upon what universe you're operating in Wink

I think we will revisit Gandalf's choice here further tomorrow.







 
 

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