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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 12 2015, 7:16am
Post #1 of 12
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**LotR: The Bridge of Khazad-dûm, 2: Flight **
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Notational note: As N. E. Brigand observed (quoted by squire in the last thread), once you've read Reverend's coverage there's not much to add. A total of 33 posts on this chapter? Wow. In fact, I have thought of some new questions, but for the rest of the week I will note the ones that are all or mostly his by 'R' after the number.
The Company has been attacked by a host of orcs, which were dispatched relatively easily by the Men, Elf, and Dwarf.
But wait, there's more! Just as the company was about to retreat, a "huge orc-chieftan entered the chamber and smote Frodo with a spear." Sam and Aragorn attacked it, and the chieftain fell. The company flees, although they had to drag poor Gimli away from Balin's tomb.
1. Who is this "orc chieftain" and why is he attacking Frodo in particular? Why doesn't he have more backup?
2. We are always sensitive to possible racism in older tales. Is this description of the orc-chieftain offensive, or just scary? His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red; he wielded a great spear.
On Gandalf's orders, they flee, but Gandalf remains, saying, "Swords are no more use here." There are disturbing sounds: Suddenly at the top of the stair there was a stab of white light. Then there was a dull rumble and a heavy thud. The drum-beats broke out wildly: doom-boom, doom-boom, and then stopped. Gandalf came flying down the steps and fell to the ground in the midst of the Company. The wizard is "rather shaken."
In the brief respite that followed, they take note that the orc chieftain's spear, which "would have skewered a wild boar," has left Frodo bruised and in pain, but living.
3. What were Frodo's actual injuries? Bruise? Broken rib(s)? An impenetrable-but-lightweight armor wouldn't have prevented compression injuries, would it? He seems to have recovered fairly quickly.
The Company flees, heading generally downward, groping blindly, as Gandalf's staff seems as exhausted as its owner. Finally Gandalf can go no further, and insists on resting. Everyone is as keen to know what happened as we are, but the wizard doesn't really know! He tried a "shutting spell" on the door: ‘As I stood there I could hear orc-voices on the other side: at any moment I thought they would burst it open. I could not hear what was said; they seemed to be talking in their own hideous language. All I caught was ghâsh; that is “fire”. Then something came into the chamber – I felt it through the door, and the orcs themselves were afraid and fell silent. It laid hold of the iron ring, and then it perceived me and my spell.
‘What it was I cannot guess, but I have never felt such a challenge. The counter-spell was terrible. It nearly broke me. For an instant the door left my control and began to open! I had to speak a word of Command. That proved too great a strain. The door burst in pieces. Something dark as a cloud was blocking out all the light inside, and I was thrown backwards down the stairs. All the wall gave way, and the roof of the chamber as well, I think.
From Reverend: "This is far and away the most explicit and detailed discussion of magic in all of Tolkien. Observe the principals perceiving one another through the door, and of the energy exchanged in this effectively telepathic encounter...and the fact that Gandalf is getting over it in under an hour."
4R. The drumbeats followed the fleeing Company, but there are no more orc attacks for now. Are we to assume that the orcs are moving south along parallel passages? Shouldn’t they be able to find a left turn that would connect with the Fellowship’s passage somewhere in the course of this mile?
5. What was Gandalf's adversary? The Balrog, or something else? (R) If the Balrog, how did he get down to the Bridge so fast, when the Company thinks it's taking the direct route?
6R. Why didn't Gandalf try this powerful shutting-spell on the FIRST door, instead of sticking his head out?
7R. If Gandalf’s spells pack a wallop that can bring down a ceiling, wouldn’t that corridor outside the Chamber of Mazarbul have been a nice target?
As they collect themselves, admiring both Gandalf's and Frodo's recovery, Gandalf reflects, ‘You take after Bilbo,’ said Gandalf. ‘There is more about you than meets the eye, as I said of him long ago.’ Frodo wondered if the remark meant more than it said.
8. Of course it meant more, or the Professor wouldn't have said so. What is Gandalf thinking?
Optional Reading
Enjoy Kiskadee's draft (posted in the 2003 discussion) of a report the surviving orc may have taken back to the Balrog:
With apologies to Patrick O'Brian here is Lt. Snarga's account.
Moria 19th Hall, 3rd Chamber
6th of Bashnazg, 4859* A.R.
Sir,
I have the distressing duty to acquaint your most fearsomely fiery person with the outcome of the tracking party's mission. It is with grief and regret that I report the fall of Chieftain Ugnash along with 12 of our most accomplished and valiant fighters. I must be permitted to say that there could not have been greater regularity, nor more cool determined conduct shown on the part of Ugnash and our men. However, most unfortunately, we were no match for the horrors of elvish magic which awaited them. Moreover, the cave troll requisitioned from central supply proved to be unsatisfactory, quailing at a slight scratch on the foot. We beg your lordship's forgiveness for our inadequacy. A full account of the action follows:
Upon receipt and decoding of the well-watcher's hammer-tap message our party proceeded immediately toward the upper halls after requisitioning a cave troll from the central supply area. Our sniffers quickly picked up the sickening scent of elf and we were able to readily locate the intruders. One of them attempted to disconcert us with a flash of cursed elf-light but the chieftain was undaunted and we laughed at the pitiful spark.
In typical elf-fashion the intruders would not come forth to meet us in fair open combat but barricaded themselves in the dwarvish strong room. The cave troll forced the door and Ch. Ugnash leapt gallantly through the door and slew the intended target. Lamentably, he himself was struck down when dealt a cowardly blow from behind with a magical elven blade. It is unclear exactly how many were in the elvish party as the light in the chamber made it nearly impossible to see. 12 more of the party fell to enchanted blades before I signalled retreat. We regrouped and proceeded to the east gate ambush rendezvous point.
I have the honour to remain your most humble servant,
Lt. Snarga, 5th Moria Special Infantry
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 12 2015, 7:21am)
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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 12 2015, 12:04pm
Post #2 of 12
(1866 views)
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Hobbits are very tough in the fibre...
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Many thanks for all the great insights! I enjoyed the report from Lt. Snarga a lot.
Who is this "orc chieftain" and why is he attacking Frodo in particular? Why doesn't he have more backup?
His minions were crowded around the door, frightened. He had armor, and may have been trying for a promotion. The Watcher also went after Frodo. The Ring is very attractive to evil.
2. We are always sensitive to possible racism in older tales. Is this description of the orc-chieftain offensive, or just scary? His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red; he wielded a great spear.
Maybe reading racism into this book is racist in itself? I sure wouldn’t think that eyes like coals and a red tongue is meant to disparage anyone, other than orcses, that is.
3. What were Frodo's actual injuries? Bruise? Broken rib(s)? An impenetrable-but-lightweight armor wouldn't have prevented compression injuries, would it? He seems to have recovered fairly quickly.
Hobbits are very tough in the fibre, I deem. Maybe there is a lingering benefit from his treatments in Rivendell. And he is meant to carry the Ring, if you know what that means.
4R. The drumbeats followed the fleeing Company, but there are no more orc attacks for now. Are we to assume that the orcs are moving south along parallel passages? Shouldn’t they be able to find a left turn that would connect with the Fellowship’s passage somewhere in the course of this mile?
They were hurrying to get to the bridge ahead of the Company.
5. What was Gandalf's adversary? The Balrog, or something else? (R) If the Balrog, how did he get down to the Bridge so fast, when the Company thinks it's taking the direct route?
I assumed the Balrog, because of the darkness. He did get there a bit after them.
6R. Why didn't Gandalf try this powerful shutting-spell on the FIRST door, instead of sticking his head out?
He wouldn’t expend that much energy unless there was no other option, as it left him defenseless for a while.
7R. If Gandalf’s spells pack a wallop that can bring down a ceiling, wouldn’t that corridor outside the Chamber of Mazarbul have been a nice target?
Ditto.
8. Of course it meant more, or the Professor wouldn't have said so. What is Gandalf thinking?
The mithril vest was hidden to everyone else. Easy for Gandalf to figure out, of course. I was surprised that Gimli didn’t know that Bilbo had it. Does that mean the survivors of Erebor didn’t know about it? I may need to search the Hobbit for clues!
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 12 2015, 5:57pm
Post #3 of 12
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1. Who is this "orc chieftain"…
Probably the commander who realizes morale is crumbling due to the repulse of the first attack. Probably feels he needs to take a personal hand in turning the battle around.
… and why is he attacking Frodo in particular?
He needs a quick kill to rally the troops. And Frodo no doubt looks like an easy one.
Why doesn't he have more backup?
He’s hoping backup will come when one of the enemy finally goes down. But when he goes down his followers give it up as a lost cause.
2. We are always sensitive to possible racism in older tales. Is this description of the orc-chieftain offensive, or just scary? His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red; he wielded a great spear.
Western Civilization has always felt an existential threat from the peoples of the East. The invasions by Persians, Magyars, Mongols, Arabs, and other Eastern groups over the centuries fed and reinforced this fear. The end of the Russo-Japanese War in 1905 sent shockwaves throughout the modern Western world as an Eastern power demonstrated a hitherto unknown strength to defeat a Western one, perhaps signaling the beginning of the end of Western dominance. Indeed the following passage might well seem inspired by Oswald Spengler’s contention in his work “Decline of the West” that Western civilization was now in its “winter time”:
'That is a fair lord and a great captain of men,' said Legolas. 'If Gondor has such men still in these days of fading, great must have been its glory in the days of its rising.'
'And doubtless the good stone-work is the older and was wrought in the first building,' said Gimli. 'It is ever so with the things that Men begin: there is a frost in Spring, or a blight in Summer, and they fail of their promise.'
'Yet seldom do they fail of their seed,' said Legolas. 'And that will lie in the dust and rot to spring up again in times and places unlooked-for. The deeds of Men will outlast us, Gimli.'
'And yet come to naught in the end but might-have-beens, I guess,' said the Dwarf.
'To that the Elves know not the answer,' said Legolas.
-The Last Debate
Anyway, in the end, given that Tolkien is building a mythos based in Northern Europe, it’s only historically logical that the threat be from the East. And Eastern visages might indeed inspire such exaggerated scary descriptions by small terrified hobbits.
The wizard is "rather shaken."
Shaken, not stirred.
In the brief respite that followed, they take note that the orc chieftain's spear, which "would have skewered a wild boar," has left Frodo bruised and in pain, but living.
3. What were Frodo's actual injuries? Bruise? Broken rib(s)? An impenetrable-but-lightweight armor wouldn't have prevented compression injuries, would it?
There was a dark and blackened bruise on Frodo's right side and breast. Under the mail there was a shirt of soft leather, but at one point the rings had been driven through it into the flesh. Frodo's left side also was scored and bruised where he had been hurled against the wall. While the others set the food ready. Aragorn bathed the hurts with water in which athelas was steeped. The pungent fragrance filled the dell, and all those who stooped over the steaming water felt refreshed and strengthened. Soon Frodo felt the pain leave him, and his breath grew easy: though he was stiff and sore to the touch for many days.
-Lothlorien
He seems to have recovered fairly quickly.
Adrenaline can keep you going in such situations, but eventually the reality of the injury comes home to roost:
For some time Frodo and Sam managed to keep up with the others; but Aragorn was leading them at a great pace, and after a while they lagged behind. They had eaten nothing since the early morning. Sam's cut was burning like fire, and his head felt light. In spite of the shining sun the wind seemed chill after the warm darkness of Moria. He shivered. Frodo felt every step more painful and he gasped for breath.
-ibid
Observe the principals perceiving one another through the door, and of the energy exchanged in this effectively telepathic encounter...and the fact that Gandalf is getting over it in under an hour."
Seemingly Jackson’s GURPS fatigue-based magic system rather than the Vancian spell memorization magic system of D&D.
4R. The drumbeats followed the fleeing Company, but there are no more orc attacks for now. Are we to assume that the orcs are moving south along parallel passages?
They’re taking a short cut.
Shouldn’t they be able to find a left turn that would connect with the Fellowship’s passage somewhere in the course of this mile?
They’re going to head ‘em off at the pass!
5. What was Gandalf's adversary? The Balrog, or something else?
I’m going with the balrog.
(R) If the Balrog, how did he get down to the Bridge so fast, when the Company thinks it's taking the direct route?
Indeed, it seemed to have flown…
6R. Why didn't Gandalf try this powerful shutting-spell on the FIRST door, instead of sticking his head out?
'Slam the doors and wedge them! ' shouted Aragorn. 'And keep your packs on as long as you can: we may get a chance to cut our way out yet.'
`No! ' said Gandalf. 'We must not get shut in. Keep the east door ajar! We will go that way, if we get a chance.'
7R. If Gandalf’s spells pack a wallop that can bring down a ceiling, wouldn’t that corridor outside the Chamber of Mazarbul have been a nice target?
Actually I’m thinking the destruction of the ceiling was an accidental byproduct of a magical showdown rather than a targeted act. Unintended collateral damage from an explosion of a magical buildup of spell, counter-spell, counter-counter-spell, and so on until the competing forces became unstable and the fabric of reality gave way with a bang.
As they collect themselves, admiring both Gandalf's and Frodo's recovery, Gandalf reflects, ‘You take after Bilbo,’ said Gandalf. ‘There is more about you than meets the eye, as I said of him long ago.’ Frodo wondered if the remark meant more than it said.
8. Of course it meant more, or the Professor wouldn't have said so. What is Gandalf thinking?
Frodo may have the very Devil in his pocket but he’s got an guardian angel on his shoulder. How can he fail?
Optional Reading
Enjoy Kiskadee's draft (posted in the 2003 discussion) of a report the surviving orc may have taken back to the Balrog:
I’ve always wondered what was in the suppressed volume of “Translations From the Orkish”. Now only to find a copy of the banned book “The Necromancer: Back and There Again”.
******************************************
Living Will Addendum:
To Whom It May Concern:
If I'm ever on life support, please unplug me.
Then plug me back in.
(Hey, works for computers!)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 12 2015, 8:58pm
Post #4 of 12
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Is a word of "Command" from the language of Valinor?
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"Actually I’m thinking the destruction of the ceiling was an accidental byproduct of a magical showdown rather than a targeted act. Unintended collateral damage from an explosion of a magical buildup of spell, counter-spell, counter-counter-spell, and so on until the competing forces became unstable and the fabric of reality gave way with a bang."
Gandalf makes a word of Command sound like a serious last resort in the wizard world, and it unleashed some pretty serious energy. Does anyone know if Tolkien ever said in Letters or elsewhere what it meant?
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squire
Half-elven
May 13 2015, 1:33am
Post #5 of 12
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I know that Tolkien, like us, often fell for the temptation to limn out the 'rules' of his invented world. The 'Palantir' essay in Unfinished Tales is a great example. But he was also aware, as we are, that a large part of the attraction of his stories is that there is stuff that we do not know, and will never know.
I think this scene is one of those. As Reverend pointed out, it's as explicit a magical showdown as we will ever find in the Tolkien corpus, and it's still maddeningly, enticingly, properly... unclear. What was the 'word of Command'? Gee, doesn't the phrase explain itself as much as it needs to? (while 'a serious last resort in the wizard world' sounds dismayingly like a reference to J. K. Rowling!)
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 13 2015, 8:22am
Post #6 of 12
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I'm always a bit torn on things like this. On the one hand I would like to know more about how it works. On the other, explanations tend either to lead to more questions, or to be less satisfying than when it was a mystery. Sometimes I feel I'm being like a small child who asks a question, then bounces the answer back prefaces with "but why...?" It can go on nearly forever (or at least this is how it feels if you're the adult involved)..
Of course, Tolkien doesn't know how magic works in the sense that it is a fictional construct, which doesn't work in terms of real-life physics etc. So it has to be a mystery, or the explanations have to be subsidiary mysteries, going on long enough to satisfy most readers. (Not some of us though - we keep asking "But why...?"  )
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 13 2015, 12:02pm
Post #7 of 12
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I obviously want to know. That's why I asked. :) //
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sador
Half-elven
May 13 2015, 1:04pm
Post #8 of 12
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1. Who is this "orc chieftain"
Apparently, chieftain Ugnash.
and why is he attacking Frodo in particular?
He smells the troll's blood on the blade, and notices that it was a cowardly Shire-rat who stabbed it behind the door.
Why doesn't he have more backup?
Well, we do not know how many he had; just that his followers fled.
2. We are always sensitive to possible racism in older tales. Is this description of the orc-chieftain offensive, or just scary?
His broad flat face was swart, his eyes were like coals, and his tongue was red; he wielded a great spear. It's all a mater of taste.
Maybe this is what Frodo meant, when speaking of servants of the Enemy who look fair and feel foul?
3. What were Frodo's actual injuries? Bruise? Broken rib(s)? An impenetrable-but-lightweight armor wouldn't have prevented compression injuries, would it? He seems to have recovered fairly quickly.
As Darkstone quoted, Tolkien answers this in the next chapter.
But what of Frodo's back? Being hurled back to the wall should also cause damage. Or wasn't he?
4R. The drumbeats followed the fleeing Company, but there are no more orc attacks for now. Are we to assume that the orcs are moving south along parallel passages?
I guess some are; but others are probably in position in the Second Hall.
Shouldn’t they be able to find a left turn that would connect with the Fellowship’s passage somewhere in the course of this mile?
I think not. This seems to be a private stairway for the benefit of the Lord of Moria, and I do not recall any mention of other passages opening to it.
5. What was Gandalf's adversary? The Balrog, or something else?
Do you think there was another thing? It never occured to me.
Also, consider Gandalf's later saying "now I understand". (You probaby will, anyway)
(R) If the Balrog, how did he get down to the Bridge so fast, when the Company thinks it's taking the direct route?
The Company are not taking the highway, but a private way. And Gandalf has to rest at the bottom of a flight of stairs.
And even if you insist the Balrog can't fly, it is clearly good at leaping and racing. And he is not slowed down by having to wait for hobbits.
6R. Why didn't Gandalf try this powerful shutting-spell on the FIRST door, instead of sticking his head out?
As he says, the door could be broken by force even after a shutting-spell.
Just as the first door was.
7R. If Gandalf’s spells pack a wallop that can bring down a ceiling, wouldn’t that corridor outside the Chamber of Mazarbul have been a nice target?
No, it's just the strain between two opposing spells.
Now had he been able to persuade the Balrog to a contest before the first door...
8. Of course it meant more, or the Professor wouldn't have said so. What is Gandalf thinking?
It could just be that Frodo was finding a hidden meaning in everything said at him. The poor fellow is still in a state of shock.
But Gandalf did mention the mithril-coat the night before. So he might have added one two one, and come up with the correct answer. Aragorn didn't, but a wizard is supposed to be more clever.
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 13 2015, 1:14pm
Post #9 of 12
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What were Frodo's actual injuries?
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I'm agreeing with Darkstone - most likely an injury to the ribs. Common contact sports injury, and not very treatable: unless a broken rib seems to have punctured another organ, they send you home with painkillers to rest up.
It's more painful after a few days, once inflammation sets in. But maybe athelas prevents that; Frodo seems to report no more problems after his treatment, and is able to be quite active, including climbing rope ladders. Ouch to do that with a rib injury
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 13 2015, 1:18pm
Post #10 of 12
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If it was "The Beater of the Drums" wouldn't that mean...
(Animal from the Muppets - I imagine him pulling himself out of the rubble and saying "yeah...best..gig...ever...)
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 13 2015, 1:36pm
Post #11 of 12
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The phrase "Word of Command" is used several times in The Bible, usually refering to "logos", or "The Word of God". (And of course Jesus *is* Logos, or "The Living Word".) Indeed as Philo of Alexandria (20 BC – 50 AD) said in "De Profugis":
...the Logos of the living God is the bond of everything, holding all things together and binding all the parts, and prevents them from being dissolved and separated.
(Which sounds strikingly familiar to the words Alec Guinness used when *he* played Gandalf!)
Philo also used the term "Logos" to describe an intermediary divine being, which arguably an Istari is.
So one can say Gandalf was channeling divine power both here and at the bridge, which could be seen as coming dangerously close to violating the power restrictions the Valar laid on the Istari. But desperate times call for desperate measures, and in the end Gandalf could be said to have paid the ultimate price for doing so.
BTW, some argue that the One Ring is a Ring of Command, which would put it in the same category as the rest of Melkor's and Sauron's creations: a Mockery of the Divine.
Of course I may be seeing connections that are not there, but then, as Tolkien said in Letter #142, "The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work".
******************************************
Living Will Addendum:
To Whom It May Concern:
If I'm ever on life support, please unplug me.
Then plug me back in.
(Hey, works for computers!)
(This post was edited by Darkstone on May 13 2015, 1:39pm)
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 13 2015, 7:05pm
Post #12 of 12
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Thanks, Darkstone. From the context of Gandalf's near-babbling at this point, it seems he's giving away more information than he usually would because he's still flustered and shaken by the encounter with the Balrog and the fight over the door. Hence he's letting out some trade secrets, like the reference to the word of Command. I had no idea it was a phrase used in the Bible, but it appears he's making a desperate appeal to a higher/divine authority here, hence being more Raw Maia than Disguised Istari, and it has to be a powerful language for a single word spoken in it to release so much energy. (I'm left wondering if the Balrog had any words of Command up its sleeves too.)
PS. It was maybe 10 years ago when I first read all the different ways that "logos" could be translated into English. I thought it a shame that I grew up with that literal phrase of "Jesus is the Word," and I'd think, "Which word are you talking about? And how could a person be reduced to a single word?" Logos could be translated as "knowledge, message, revelation, wisdom," and a bunch of other things more abstract and comprehensive and less literal than trying to picture a religious person as a single word (like a noun or verb).
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