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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 11 2015, 7:30am
Post #1 of 24
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**LotR: The Bridge of Khazad-dűm, 1: Mazarbul **
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Welcome to the most exciting chapter in Fellowship of the Ring, with as much action as any other in the trilogy (list your alternative candidates here!). Fasten your seatbelts!
Back in the Spring of 2003, when I was new to TORn, I discovered the Reading Room just about at this point in its 2nd LotR Read-through, and fell in love with it! This chapter was led by Reverend, who became my favorite TORNsib until his untimely death only a few months later. I will quote from him a lot! But first, it is my habit in these presentations, to summarize where we are and what's going on.
It is the morning of January 15, TA3019. The Fellowship has been traveling since Dec. 25 and has been defeated by weather on the mountain of Carathras, survived a harrowing attack of wargs and survived an even stranger assault by the Watcher in the Water. They entered Moria two days ago, and now find themselves in the Chamber of Mazarbul, having just discovered, to Gimli's great dismay and grief, the tomb of Balin, "Lord of Moria."
(photo from heroscapers.com)
Moria is an immense and very complicated place. Both Gandalf and Aragorn have been here exactly once, in both cases many years ago, and have only vague memories of the layout. Reverend attempted to construct its layout.
1. Do you have a favorite alternative mapping of Moria, or are you content just to let Gandalf figure it out?
2. How is Gandalf working out as a guide so far?
Gandalf has found a book, which seems to present a record of the five-year history of Balin's attempted colony. He reads scattered passages, which record guarded progress until Balin is killed by orcs while gazing into the Mirrormere. After that, it appears the colony suffers one catastrophe after another, until they are finally besieged in this very room. One of the Dwarves has the courage to keep up the journal until the very end: We can't get out! We can't get out! ... They are coming."
Tolkien actually painted two pages of the Book of Mazarbul:
and
They were intended to be used as illustrations in the book, but most editions have not used them. The 50th and 60th Anniversary editions did. The originals were on display at Fordham University in New York, at the time of the first showing of FotR with live orchestra a few years ago. Many of us saw them, with other articles in that exhibit.
3. It seems as though the colony came apart fairly rapidly after Balin's death. Why?
4. How did the book and its pages become so damaged? We see no other signs of fire, for example, in this Chamber.
Just as they were contemplating these grim tidings...
there came a great noise: a rolling Boom that seemed to come from depths far below, and to tremble in the stone at their feet. They sprang towards the door in alarm. Doom, doom it rolled again, as if huge hands were turning the very caverns of Moria into a vast drum. Then there came an echoing blast: a great horn was blown in the hall, and answering horns and harsh cries were heard further off. There was a hurrying sound of many feet.
‘They are coming! ‘ cried Legolas.
‘We cannot get out,’ said Gimli.
Last week we discussed Pippin's Folly as a possible explanation for how the orcs & other residents of Moria knew they were being invaded. CuriousG suggested six possible ways the word could have gotten out. We will revisit this question later, but first we have to deal with the consequences.
5. How did the enemy know to head for the Chamber of Mazarbul? And why go there? Even after Pippin’s stone, there are so many interconnections that the Fellowship could have ended up almost anywhere. Why not just sit tight in front of the only way out?
6. Is it too, too much of a cliche that the drums say "Doom, doom"? Drums do sound like that.
7. Are Legolas and Gimli echoing the text Gandalf just read consciously, or unconsciously?
The company prepares for the attack. Though tempted to lock themselves in, upon Gandalf's suggestion they leave the door at the far end of the chamber open as a line of retreat. Gandalf briefly uses his staff as a flashlight to see what's coming: lots of orcs, and a possible cave troll. They bar the door, but the enemy breaks through. Sighting a singularly ugly foot intruding, Frodo suddenly feels "a hot wrath blaze up in his heart" and attacks, much to the delight and admiration of Aragorn. But the enemy charges in, only to meet the deadly defense team of Legolas, Gimli, and the two Men. Between them, they quickly killed 13, and the rest fled.
8. Was it too easy for our warriors to defeat this host of orcs? Too "Star Trek"?
9. What was Gandalf doing during the battle?
Optional:
I still remember than when I first read this ('70's) I had trouble visualizing what an "orc" was. I'm grateful to Reverend for this taxonomy.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 11 2015, 7:30am)
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oliphaunt
Lorien
May 11 2015, 1:21pm
Post #2 of 24
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I’ve got a crush on it now too.
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Back in the Spring of 2003, when I was new to TORn, I discovered the Reading Room just about at this point in its 2nd LotR Read-through, and fell in love with it!
I’ve got a crush on it now too.
1. Do you have a favorite alternative mapping of Moria, or are you content just to let Gandalf figure it out?
Trying to keep track makes my head hurt. Without Gandalf’s light I’m done for anyway, so I’ll just follow him.
2. How is Gandalf working out as a guide so far?
Having a magical light source is a key strength. Plus he’s the smartest person we know.
I’m wondering how Aragorn got through on his own. He must have been carrying a lot of torches. Or did he have an elven lantern? He did come from the Lorien side, so maybe…
3. It seems as though the colony came apart fairly rapidly after Balin's death. Why?
The orcs were gaining strength, and the loss of Balin’s leadership weakened the dwarves.
4. How did the book and its pages become so damaged? We see no other signs of fire, for example, in this Chamber.
The book didn’t work out as a shield against the Balrog.
5. How did the enemy know to head for the Chamber of Mazarbul? And why go there? Even after Pippin’s stone, there are so many interconnections that the Fellowship could have ended up almost anywhere. Why not just sit tight in front of the only way out?
Orcses aren’t not too bright, and are poor strategists.
6. Is it too, too much of a cliche that the drums say "Doom, doom"? Drums do sound like that.
I like this alliteration. I guess this is also consonance. How else could they be described?
7. Are Legolas and Gimli echoing the text Gandalf just read consciously, or unconsciously?
Legolas is being clever. Gimli is merely a copycat. He’s not a cool as the elf, but he’s handy with an axe in a tight spot.
8. Was it too easy for our warriors to defeat this host of orcs? Too "Star Trek"?
They’ve got experienced fighters who’ve dealt with orcs very successfully before. But then, they would have lost Frodo, if not for the mithril.
9. What was Gandalf doing during the battle?
Preparing spells, he’s a good strategist.
Optional:
I still remember than when I first read this ('70's) I had trouble visualizing what an "orc" was.
I first read this book in the 70’s as well. It’s hard to remember what I ‘saw’. Over the years Mr Lee, Howe, Hildebrandt et al, and then the movies, surpassed any poor product of my imagination.
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Darkstone
Immortal
May 11 2015, 4:25pm
Post #3 of 24
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"The Deep Doom of Dark Doorways"
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One chapter in the children's book "Rootabaga Stories" by Carl Sandburg is entitled "Four Stories about the Deep Doom of Dark Doorways". Disappointingly, none of the four stories are dark, nor do they involve deepness, doom, or doorways.
Welcome to the most exciting chapter in Fellowship of the Ring, with as much action as any other in the trilogy (list your alternative candidates here!).
Any chapter with Eowyn in it.
Fasten your seatbelts!
Channeling Bette Davis!
1. Do you have a favorite alternative mapping of Moria, or are you content just to let Gandalf figure it out?
Trust Gandalf! Whatever could go wrong? (Hey! Where’d that balrog come from?)
2. How is Gandalf working out as a guide so far?
With Aragorn and Gimli, pretty good. Usually when you have three guides you get pulled in three different directions. Gandalf keeps firm control.
3. It seems as though the colony came apart fairly rapidly after Balin's death. Why?
The push for the Moria colony seems to have been driven primarily by Balin:
At last, however, Balin listened to the whispers, and resolved to go; and though Dáin did not give leave willingly, he took with him Ori and Óin and many of our folk, and they went away south.
-The Council of Elrond
Little wonder it falters with his death. Apathy due to low morale, discord due to faction splits, confusion due to multiple leadership claims, any one or another could contribute to a weakening of social structure and ultimate collapse. One thing probably stayed strong, though: pride. Stiff-necked Dwarves would never admit defeat and go back to Erebor, so in the end they probably realized the only option remaining was to stand and die.
4. How did the book and its pages become so damaged? We see no other signs of fire, for example, in this Chamber.
This looks like sulfuric acid damage. When minerals containing iron sulfate (such as might be in a mine) are exposed to air and excessive moisture they experience “pyrite decay”. This decay produces sulfuric acid vapor which reacts with cellulose. The destructive reaction produces carbon residue that gives a burnt appearance. Indeed, since the reaction produces heat, under certain conditions a fire could spontaneously occur.
Doubtless as an Anglo-Saxon scholar Tolkien was all too aware of many medieval manuscripts in such heartbreaking states.
5. How did the enemy know to head for the Chamber of Mazarbul? And why go there?
Maybe they’re using it as a staging area to form up before searching out the intruders. Many battles are fought by accident with opposing forces blundering into each other unawares.
Even after Pippin’s stone, there are so many interconnections that the Fellowship could have ended up almost anywhere. Why not just sit tight in front of the only way out?
Again, this seems a logical place to meet and decide how to arrange forces to defend the East Gate.
6. Is it too, too much of a cliche that the drums say "Doom, doom"?
More like homonymic onomatopoeia, so how could wordsmith Tolkien resist?
Drums do sound like that.
Gives a whole new meaning to the Christmas song “The Little Drummer Boy”.
7. Are Legolas and Gimli echoing the text Gandalf just read consciously, or unconsciously?
And subconsciously.
8. Was it too easy for our warriors to defeat this host of orcs?
The orcs do seem to attack in “penny packets” rather than en masse, a flawed tactic which is often the root of failure for many a battle. Plus they do tend to lose heart and rout when their leader falls:
The orc [-chieftain] fell with cloven head. His followers fled howling, as Boromir and Aragorn sprang at them.
Doubtless 2nd Lieutenant Tolkien would have witnessed and/or participated in attacks that failed due to one or both of these reasons.
Too "Star Trek"?
Actually subverts it. There are at least two or three good candidates for “Fellowship Member #6 who dies to show how serious the situation is.”
9. What was Gandalf doing during the battle?
Wizard stuff. For example, I wonder if, like at the Bruinen, Gandalf might have “added a few touches of my own” to impress the local yokels as well as give heart to the Fellowship:
But even as the orc flung down the truncheon and swept out his scimitar, Andúril came down upon his helm. There was a flash like flame and the helm burst asunder.
Optional:
I still remember than when I first read this ('70's) I had trouble visualizing what an "orc" was. I'm grateful to Reverend for this taxonomy.
My own visualization during my first reading was based on Disney’s Sleeping Beauty:
Thankfully pre-dating the “Grumpy Cat” orcs of Rankin-Bass:
And the "five motley extras rotoscoped over and over to form a horde" orcs of Bakshi:
******************************************
Living Will Addendum:
To Whom It May Concern:
If I'm ever on life support, please unplug me.
Then plug me back in.
(Hey, works for computers!)
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 11 2015, 4:36pm
Post #4 of 24
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It seems as though the colony came apart fairly rapidly after Balin's death. Why?
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We only get fragments of what happened, as decoded on the spot by Gandalf. Appendix A says that Balin died & the colony was over-run in Year 2994, but (as far as I know) we can't tell whether Balin was an early casualty in the attack that overcame the colony after a short period of near-continuous fighting, or whether there were days, weeks or months between Balin's death and his surviving followers' last stand.
I think that our only knowledge of intervening events is that Balin's followers had time to build a tomb for him, and also to send an unsuccessful expedition to see whether it was possible to get out past the Watcher (and for a survivor to return reporting failure).
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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noWizardme
Half-elven
May 11 2015, 4:42pm
Post #5 of 24
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The onomatopoeic drums of doom (and pronounciation help wanted)
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Maybe it risks being corny, but "thump" would sound like he was trying to avoid "doom"
By the way - how should "Khazad-dum" be pronounced: does "-dum" sound line "dumb" or like "doom"?
And does "Khazad" sound like "hazard"?
~~~~~~
"nowimë I am in the West, Furincurunir to the Dwarves (or at least, to their best friend) and by other names in other lands. Mostly they just say 'Oh no it's him - look busy!' "
Or "Hold off! unhand me, grey-beard loon!"
This year LOTR turns 60. The following image is my LOTR 60th anniversary party footer! You can get yours here: http://newboards.theonering.net/...i?post=762154#762154
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 11 2015, 5:46pm
Post #7 of 24
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Always good to have a scientist on board.
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Fasten your seatbelts!
Channeling Bette Davis!
You're on to me.
4. How did the book and its pages become so damaged? We see no other signs of fire, for example, in this Chamber.
This looks like sulfuric acid damage. When minerals containing iron sulfate (such as might be in a mine) are exposed to air and excessive moisture they experience “pyrite decay”. This decay produces sulfuric acid vapor which reacts with cellulose. The destructive reaction produces carbon residue that gives a burnt appearance. Indeed, since the reaction produces heat, under certain conditions a fire could spontaneously occur.
Doubtless as an Anglo-Saxon scholar Tolkien was all too aware of many medieval manuscripts in such heartbreaking states.
Excellent, thanks!
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 11 2015, 5:47pm)
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 11 2015, 5:51pm
Post #8 of 24
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Did his sightseeing expedition to Mirrormere expose him unnecessarily? I agree with the general consensus that the loss of his leadership doomed the colony.
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 11 2015, 5:53pm
Post #9 of 24
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...it's Khazad-doom, but I confess I've never read the Appendices on languages.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 11 2015, 5:57pm
Post #10 of 24
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I’m wondering how Aragorn got through on his own. He must have been carrying a lot of torches. Or did he have an elven lantern? He did come from the Lorien side, so maybe…
I'm wondering if Aragorn both entered and left by the eastern door. We don't know when he entered Moria previously or for what purpose. It might have been part of his hunt for Gollum.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 11 2015, 11:00pm
Post #12 of 24
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The Encyclopedia of Arda says:
Pronunciation
Probably kha'zad doom(2)
(2) Tolkien gives us little information about the pronunciation of Dwarvish names, so the pronunciation suggested here is conjectural.
Venturing into Appendix E Writing and Spelling, I find:
K is used in names drawn from other than Elvish languages, with the same value as c; kh thus represents the same sound as ch in Orcish ... On Dwarvish (Khuzdul) see note below.
...
NOTE
In names drawn from other languages than Eldarin the same values for the letters are intended ... except in the case of Dwarvish. In Dwarvish, which did not possess the sounds represented above by th and ch (h), th and kh are aspirates, that is t or k followed by an h, more or less as in backhand, outhouse.
In Appendix F, Languages and Peoples of the Third Age, I find a discussion of Moria, which is Elvish for Black Chasm. Then,
But the Dwarves themselves, and this name at least was never kept secret, called it Khazad-dűm, the Mansion of the Khazâd; for such is their own name for their own name for their own race, and has been so since Aulë gave it to them at their making in the deeps of time.
I'm not sure if that helps. 
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 11 2015, 11:02pm)
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 11 2015, 11:28pm
Post #13 of 24
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I would concur with this as well.
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Was Balin unwise to go out? Did his sightseeing expedition to Mirrormere expose him unnecessarily? I agree with the general consensus that the loss of his leadership doomed the colony.
With the loss of the Durins in TH, Balin was a small remnant of older Dwarf leadership and likely wisdom in battle, and the rigors needed for a re-establishment of such a community. His loss would be acutely felt by the small band at Moria, and I wonder if that is not a continuation of TH in JRRT's mind and the extension of losses related to the Company.
Its possible that the Mirrormere was an unnecessary act - in a way though, to me it reveals an insecurity in Balin but also tells what investment the returning Dwarves had in keeping Moria; Balin was seeking heavenly guidance there. I suppose in its way the heavens answered him. Moria was not yet ready for the return of the Dwarves.
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 11 2015, 11:30pm
Post #14 of 24
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I think they make a cream for that. //
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More like homonymic onomatopoeia ...
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Brethil
Half-elven
May 11 2015, 11:36pm
Post #16 of 24
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4. How did the book and its pages become so damaged? We see no other signs of fire, for example, in this Chamber.
Interesting question; the Orcs/Goblins of Moria were familiar with the Balrog enough to use the word 'ghash' (fire) and that makes me wonder if the Balrog had not already been through this chamber.
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entmaiden
Forum Admin
/ Moderator
May 12 2015, 12:09am
Post #17 of 24
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I'm so glad you had the links to Reverend's work!
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I was just thinking about his discussion of this chapter last week, knowing the RR was getting close. I never could visualize his map, and it's on my bucket list to try to work it out one day.
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squire
Half-elven
May 12 2015, 1:16am
Post #18 of 24
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I will now risk a little real light
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Thanks for honoring the Reverend, who I missed encountering on the boards by a few months. This discussion of his was, in earlier days, almost legendary in the Reading Room - 33 posts was a record even for the prolix Giants of the Second Discussion. N.E. Brigand, who led the next go-round two years later, said he had had to jump through hoops to find a way to discuss the chapter that didn't duplicate the Rev's encyclopedic treatment.
Oh, well, time marches on and history becomes myth, etc. I got to enjoy Reverend's epic reconstruction of the architecture of the eastern end of Moria for the first time this week thanks to you. I can't really quibble with his basic logic, which seems to capture the degree to which Tolkien himself may have worked it out. I agree with Curious' comment that the stairs may well have been steeper - either because the Dwarves made light of hardships, or because Tolkien needed steeper steps for the drama and forgot to factor in dwarf-stature!
The oddest thing about it (and I've thought this before on my own) is that the Bridge - ostensibly the one entrance to the citadel for security reasons - is one level below both the Entrance, and the Main Hall Level inside. I could see it being straight in from the Gates, but why descend a level to get to it (giving attackers the advantage of fighting downwards), and then ascend a level to get back up from the First Deep to the Main Hall?
On a different front, Reverend seems content to conclude from the descriptions given that the great halls were square in plan, with four entrances at compass points. I read the text differently, due to my bias that Tolkien's architecture is usually quite derivative of real-world models. I imagine the 'Twenty-first' hall that is described in 'A Journey in the Dark' as a linear nave with a north-south axis, and a transept arrangement at the midpoint for the east and west arches. As well as agreeing with the lighting scheme - windows along the length of one side - a square hall filled with columns, as Reverend says, becomes a maze, and discourages hierarchical ceremonies such as I would associate with the royal 'Mansion of the Dwarves'.
As for other attempts to map Moria, I believe the New Line film designers sketched one out. It was pretty rough, since it was just meant to unite and justify the sets they built, but I don't remember where I saw it - probably in one of the "Art of Lord of the Rings" picture books.
squire online:
RR Discussions: The Valaquenta, A Shortcut to Mushrooms, and Of Herbs and Stewed Rabbit
Lights! Action! Discuss on the Movie board!: 'A Journey in the Dark'. and 'Designing The Two Towers'.
Footeramas: The 3rd & 4th TORn Reading Room LotR Discussion and NOW the 1st BotR Discussion too! and "Tolkien would have LOVED it!"
squiretalk introduces the J.R.R. Tolkien Encyclopedia: A Reader's Diary
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Elizabeth
Half-elven
May 12 2015, 2:00am
Post #19 of 24
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Interesting question, I've wondered, too. My guess is that the chasm is actually natural, not "delved". Real caves do have them, for various geologic reasons (a major hazard to recreational cavers). This arching bridge over an effectively bottomless chasm would be a neat piece of engineering in any case, but much, much harder without a good shelf to put each end pier on, and what they found was that much lower than the entrance.
(This post was edited by Elizabeth on May 12 2015, 2:01am)
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Bracegirdle
Valinor
May 12 2015, 3:37am
Post #20 of 24
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For looking all that up.
I 'googled' "Khazad-dum" and the link below seems to be the most popular pronunciation. (Close to what I had in mind, just a little softer on the final 'a'.)
click
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CuriousG
Half-elven
May 12 2015, 12:46pm
Post #21 of 24
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"Balin was seeking heavenly guidance there. I suppose in its way the heavens answered him. Moria was not yet ready for the return of the Dwarves."
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sador
Half-elven
May 12 2015, 2:35pm
Post #23 of 24
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Back in the Spring of 2003, when I was new to TORn, I discovered the Reading Room just about at this point in its 2nd LotR Read-through, and fell in love with it! This chapter was led by Reverend, who became my favorite TORNsib until his untimely death only a few months later.
With such an introduction, small wonder that you were hooked!
list your alternative candidates here!
Depends on what you define as 'action'. In sheer munber of action-events taking place, Helm's Deep has more; but in terms of consistent heartthumping throughout the chapter - I would say only The Choices of Master Samwise ranks higher, and not by much.
And both chapters, while short, take some time for atmosphere-building reflection, which Helm's Deep doesn't really offer - but while in The Choices these are in the middle, between one terrifying episode and the other, The Bridge of Khazad-dum opens with a page and a hald of reading from an old book. No action, perhaps - but the tension we readers feel mounts.
Excellent writing - and the best part of it is its variety. A couple more chapters like this and I (at least) will feel surfeit.
1. Do you have a favorite alternative mapping of Moria, or are you content just to let Gandalf figure it out?
No, I never went into this kind of lore much.
One thing I wonder about is how the Mines relate to the three mountains. Of course, I realise it is one continuous range with three peaks, but I'm still curious. It seems the West-gate opens on Caradhras, and the East-gate to the Dimrill Dale, which should lie between Caradhras and Celebdil, right? Was Fanuidhol ever mined, of is it just a third, neighbouring peak?
2. How is Gandalf working out as a guide so far?
Aragorn said he was brilliant, and who am I to argue?
But I expect he is; the company has gone far in the right direction, and taken the right turns in some difficult crossroads. I do not think Gandalf explored all of the Mines, and at any rate he wasn't around them for a very long time; so he has done really well for a guide.
But once we consider he is a Maia - is there any way to judge his performance? The Valar might have one, but we do not know.
3. It seems as though the colony came apart fairly rapidly after Balin's death. Why?
They seem to have been a small group to begin with, at least for the Mines. A determined attack of orcs would do the job, even if the Balrog couldn't be bothered to wake up (which I do not think he did).
By the way, Lorien is just around the corner. Did they stay unaware of the dwarven colony for five years?
I for one don't think so; and I think that when Celeborn spoke of banning Gimli's entrance had he known the dwarves had woke up the terror under Caradhras - he was not speaking of Durin VI's time (after all, Lorien suffered badly at that time, with Amroth fleeing and his people deserting and retreatng from the Nimrodel), but of thirty years before.
So:
a) The Lord and Lady probably ignored Balin and his people on purpose.
b) The Balrog likely has returned to sleep throughout the period - during the return of Thror, the war of dwarves and goblins, and Gandalf's exploring (which happened between 2841, when Thrain was lost, and 2850 when he found him in Dol Guldur). I know this apparently contradicts the account in appendix A regarding Dain's looking inside Moria - but it still makes the most sense.
c) However, the Watcher did emerge at some time between Gandalf's exploring and the last years of Balin's colony (2994). I remember reading it was probably driven from the deeps by the Balrog, possibly on purpose to cut off the dwarves' retreat. That might have been the platform for Celeborn's conclusion.
4. How did the book and its pages become so damaged? We see no other signs of fire, for example, in this Chamber.
I bow down to Darkstone's expertise.
My first assumption was that it became all bloodstained, but in that case theinner pages should have been in better shape, right?
5. How did the enemy know to head for the Chamber of Mazarbul? And why go there? Even after Pippin’s stone, there are so many interconnections that the Fellowship could have ended up almost anywhere. Why not just sit tight in front of the only way out?
Well, they did block the way out.
I can offer two alternative guesses:
1) Gollum. He was spying on them, and while according to The Tale of Years he was hiding from them, he did accompany them in the assault on Lorien. So he might have told the tale.
2) Or else, it was the light Gandalf risked in the hall on the night before (as a matter of fact, I thought at first that was what squire meant).
6. Is it too, too much of a cliche that the drums say "Doom, doom"? Drums do sound like that.
Kettledrums do.
But the Ents' drums sound more like snare drums, don't they?
ta-runda runda runda rom!
7. Are Legolas and Gimli echoing the text Gandalf just read consciously, or unconsciously?
I would guess subconsciously. At least Gimli is.
8. Was it too easy for our warriors to defeat this host of orcs? Too "Star Trek"?
Not really. It's not easy for a large group to enter the Chamber, and fleeing upon being repulsed seems quite usual behaviour for orcs.
And after all, they know the way out is blocked... or don't they?
9. What was Gandalf doing during the battle?
For one thing, I would have hoped he was thinking hard as to whether he knew the side-exit from the Chamber (which he realised they would have to use), and where it led to.
It does seem like a private stairway for the benefit of the Lord of Moria.
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sador
Half-elven
May 12 2015, 3:50pm
Post #24 of 24
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It seems that only a few leaves were left.
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And don't forget that Oin was Balin's cousin, and the second most prestigious member of the expedition; however he perished at the West-gate, where Balin sent him before. So I suppose it was a short time indeed, Oin was taken by the Watcher - possibly before learning that he was the likely new leader, and the news brought back at the time the dwarves were driven from the Second Hall but did manage to bury Balin properly in the meantime. Dwarves work fast!
However, I wonder at Gimli; he took the news of Balin's death to his heart, seemingly - but what of his uncle? Didn't he care?
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