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AshNazg
Gondor
May 8 2015, 6:36pm
Post #1 of 18
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Did Azog and Bolg switch roles just to give Legolas something to do?
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In DoS, Azog is called to Dol Guldur and Bolg takes over his place - tracking down the dwarves to Laketown.
As we know from the trailer, originally Azog was going to track them all the way to Thranduil's realm (and was possibly going to go to Gundabad to lead the second army?) instead of Bolg. Many were confused why this happened; and how considering the great distance between Dol Guldur and Beorn's house which is covered in a single night.
I'm not sure if I'm just being slow by not noticing this before, but it's occurred to me that the only reason this swap happens is because they wanted Legolas to have a bigger role. By swapping Azog for Bolg, Bolg goes to Laketown and fights Legolas, starting a rivalry that otherwise would not have happened.
I think the original plan was for Bolg to stay in Dol Guldur, torture Beorn (who escapes), lead the army to Erebor and get killed by Beorn. But because Legolas got a bigger role, we actually get less Beorn!
I wonder, was this a decision from WB to have more Legolas to appeal to the Leggy fans? Did Bloom beg PJ for a bigger role? Or did PJ genuinely think that getting rid of Beorn in favour of Legolas was a better story?
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Dcole4
Rohan
May 8 2015, 6:38pm
Post #2 of 18
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This is probably exactly what happens, which is a huge shame. A Beorn vs. Bolg angle is far more interesting and faithful to the story than the silly overplayed Legolas thread we got. As you said, it also over complicates the plot and doesn't add much. A real shame.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
May 8 2015, 7:13pm
Post #3 of 18
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I suspect it was PJ's decision
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Partly because they decided they HAD to have 2 leaders of the Orc armies (eh, maybe), but mostly because of Alfrid. Originally Ryan Gage was to play a Hobbit, but apparently PJ like him so well that he created Alfrid, which for the most part just took over the Master's role once the survivors got to Dale. And in order to do that, we got less of the Master/Stephen Fry. Plus Alfrid's part was way bigger than it needed to be anyway. I guess when you've got X amount of story and X amount of screentime, some characters get shortchanged a bit (*cough* Dwarves *cough*).
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Smaug the iron
Gondor
May 8 2015, 7:19pm
Post #4 of 18
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What has Alfrid to do with Legolas vs Bolg.
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
May 8 2015, 9:16pm
Post #6 of 18
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I'm probably forgetting something
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But where do we get the "single night" of travel from?
To the rest, my own experience is that you tend to get better (or at least I assume better as more obvious) explanations by thinking about narrative elements than placing primacy on character scree time.
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AshNazg
Gondor
May 8 2015, 9:37pm
Post #7 of 18
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All of this happens in one night...
Scene 1 - The dwarves arrive at Beorn's house
Scene 2 - Azog is outside watching. He is called to Dol Guldur by Bolg
Scene 3 - Bilbo is stroking the Ring while everyone sleeps
Scene 4 - Azog somehow arrives at Dol Guldur and talks to the Necromancer
Scene 5 - Beorn turns back into a man
Scene 6 - Bilbo wakes up in the morning
All of this apparently happens in one night, unless there's a strange flash forward to Dol Guldur (which would be weird and confusing) or the dwarves stay at Beorn's for several days - and Beorn stays a bear for several days. (unlikely)
I'm not sure what you're saying with your second point. I said I didn't notice this until recently, so while watching the film I wasn't thinking about character screen-time at all. All I knew was that something seemed wrong. The swapping of Bolg and Azog is a very confusing part of the plot, however you look at it, and only now when I think about why it happened am I disappointed by the resulting changes in character screen-time.
(This post was edited by AshNazg on May 8 2015, 9:38pm)
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Spriggan
Tol Eressea
May 8 2015, 9:47pm
Post #8 of 18
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I don't think I would take it in that light /night myself.
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I think, just as with Radagast's travel to Eriador, the goal of sequence isn't to convey instantaneous travel. This isn't a concern for the film at these points and I think if viewers such as ourselves wish to consider travel times we shouldn't take that sequence of events as literal.
On the second point, I meant that comparing the screentimr merits of different characters (e.g. Does Legolas "deserve" more screentime than Beorn) seems to me, not to be a good match to how the filmmakers seem to approach such areas.
Instead, I think, if you consider the narrative functions of the use of screentime, it seems to me more fruitful and a better explanation.
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Kilidoescartwheels
Valinor
May 9 2015, 1:49am
Post #9 of 18
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What has Alfrid to do with Legolas vs Bolg.
It was a comparison. As Alfrid's part grew, the Master's part got smaller. Likewise, as Legolas' role grew, Beorn's got smaller.
Proud member of the BOFA Denial Association
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 9 2015, 12:24pm
Post #10 of 18
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As we know from the trailer, originally Azog was going to track them all the way to Thranduil's realm (and was possibly going to go to Gundabad to lead the second army?) instead of Bolg. Many were confused why this happened; and how considering the great distance between Dol Guldur and Beorn's house which is covered in a single night.
I'm not sure that we can definitely conclude that Azog traveled between Beorn's home and Dol Guldur in a single night. You are right that it should not be possible for anyone without wings; the distance between those two points is around 250 miles (probably closer to 270 miles). This might indeed represent some sort of flash-forward.
Now Gandalf apparently pulled off a real trick. to get from the Elf Gate to the High Fells (using my best guess for its location) and then to Dol Guldur, Gandalf probably had to travel a total of as much as 600 miles. Do we have a fair estimate for how long it took him to accomplish that feat?
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 9 2015, 12:37pm)
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LordGawain
Rivendell
May 9 2015, 12:30pm
Post #11 of 18
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It might not be literally said, but it is heavily suggested by the chronology of the scenes. We cut back and forth between Azog in Dol Guldur, and bilbo, at night in Beorn's cabin. The editing never seems to suggest that this is a flash forward, so the implication that it happens simultaneously would be logical to the majority of the audience.
Half a league, half a league, half a league onward,
All in the valley of Death, rode the six hundred.
'Forward, the Light Brigade! Charge for the guns' he said:
Into the valley of Death rode the six hundred.
Theirs not to make reply, theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death rode the six hundred.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 9 2015, 1:08pm
Post #12 of 18
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I think we should ignore appearances in this sequence.
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Let's just assume that there is a time-jump here--first forward to Dol Guldur; and then back to Beorn's house.
We do know that there is a huge time-jump coming up. No matter how quickly the company seems to traverse Mirkwood and no matter how short the stay in Thranduil's caverns seems, we know that it must have taken many weeks for Thorin & Company to reach Lake-town from the Eaves of Mirkwood because they do not reach Esgaroth until it is nearly Durin's Day (which would have been in October). That is even longer than it took them to reach Lake-town in the book.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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AshNazg
Gondor
May 10 2015, 1:45am
Post #13 of 18
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Beorn says "Your hunters are not far behind"
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...Implying that Bolg has already come back from Dol Guldur and is chasing them. So how long did they stay at Beorn's?
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 10 2015, 5:02am
Post #14 of 18
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...Implying that Bolg has already come back from Dol Guldur and is chasing them. So how long did they stay at Beorn's?
In the book, at least, Thorin & Co. were at Beorn's for two days and it took them three days to reach Mirkwood. In film terms we can probably cut that time in half (maybe by more than half). On the other hand, we don't have to assume that Bolg was with the Hunters for the entire time. They could have left trail markers for him to follow.
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
(This post was edited by Otaku-sempai on May 10 2015, 5:03am)
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Arannir
Valinor
May 11 2015, 8:44am
Post #15 of 18
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Well... it certainly comes across to me like it.
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For me, it is one of the biggest flaws the trilogy has. It makes the first part of DoS and the middle aprt of BotFA feel clumsy, imho.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Arannir
Valinor
May 11 2015, 8:50am
Post #16 of 18
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I agree that the pure "screen time" isn't the best way to measure these things.
However, I simply do not see why Legolas needed the screentime he got in terms of narrative.
If he would have been used for a great arc with a really fruitful storyline, I would have been perfectly fine with his screentime.
But what he does could imho have been done in a much smoother way instead of interferring with the overall storyline so much, contributing to my feeling of a very unfocused story and script.
"I am afraid it is only too likely to be true what you say about the critics and the public. I am dreading the publication for it will be impossible not to mind what is said. I have exposed my heart to be shot at." J.R.R. Tolkien
We all have our hearts and minds one way or another invested in these books and movies. So we all mind and should show the necessary respect.
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Otaku-sempai
Immortal
May 11 2015, 3:50pm
Post #17 of 18
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I felt that many of the transitions felt very awkward in the films.
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If we can have a caption telling us that the meeting between Gandalf and Thorin occured twelve months past, why not a caption to inform us that the company had been wandering through Mirkwood for two or three weeks (or more)?
"At the end of the journey, all men think that their youth was Arcadia..." - Phantom F. Harlock
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moreorless
Gondor
May 15 2015, 6:37am
Post #18 of 18
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For me, it is one of the biggest flaws the trilogy has. It makes the first part of DoS and the middle aprt of BotFA feel clumsy, imho.
I would tend to agree parts of all the Hobbit films feel clumsy in terms of plotting relative to LOTR but I do think most of the time a purpose is served.
In DOS I would say part of the reason for shifting Azog and Bolg is the disparity in character. Both of them are similar kinds of physical threats but Azog obviously carries a lot more weight as a character than Bolg.
Its I'd say more a question of where does the story need that weight and where is it best avoided? I think you could argue that the Barrel escape doesn't need it as much as it did when it was going to end AUJ with a risk indeed of it looking like it was covering the same ground again.
I would say that the confrontation in Laketown definitely doesn't need it. Many would say its already a potential distraction from Smaug but having Azog present makes it even moreso.
Turn that around and I would say Gandalf at Dol Guldor does benefit from Azog's presence. There's obviously the more powerful threat of Sauron and the Nazgul but those characters do not present the more humanised gloating presence Azog does.
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